Dead Hard, Fair or Unfair?
introduction
Hello again, I bring to you a rather obvious question but a interesting one to still debate about. Today, I want to discuss if Dead Hard is fair or not in the current meta of DBD.
Now of course I need to address the obvious answers that we'll get before the discussion even begins. I'll provide these questions in their own sub-sections below, but for now I'd like to take a moment to address why I bring this question to light.
Why I consider the perk is unfair and my reasoning behind this post
Well first off, I want to say that I don't like Dead Hard. I don't like using it and I don't like facing it. I've countered it plenty of times, I know how to counter it, but I still don't like it. Now, why is that relevant to the post at hand? Well, it brings to the table an interesting debate I want to spark in the community itself about the perk and why I personally don't think it's fair to face in a lot of scenarios.
In most scenarios I face it, I only see it being used for distance at windows and pallets. That's it, there isn't other uses I've seen outside of gaining distance for windows or pallets. I have faced people who use it for faking turns into Dead Hard for a miss, but you rarely see it now a days because it's mostly just used for distance now.
You might ask why this is unfair though, well, I consider it unfair when you bring up the fact that the perk itself can easily extend a chase or re-write a mistake a Survivor makes at said chase (with enough leg room that is). Kind of like DS but not really. The point is, the perk (in my opinion) isn't exactly fair to face when you're up against multiple users of it, who only use it to gain distance or fix a mistake when getting moonwalked, faked, etc.
I should also mention that when Dead Hard is being used to gain distance, there's nothing the Killer can do about it. If we're talking about scenarios that involve a way to bait it, than that's a different discussion that can be brought up below, but I'm mainly talking about a straight shot to a window or pallet that the Killer can't prevent if Dead Hard is used. The same goes for if the Survivor makes a mistake and the Killer could've downed them if Dead Hard was not used, just to be clear.
Now before I continue, let me address the questions and answers that'll be brought up in this discussion.
"The perk can be easily faked"
First off, yes, it can be easily faked in the right circumstances. The perk itself is actually really easy to predict when you've faced it for so long. But in my 2200 hours, I still don't consider the "Dead Hard for Distance" meme to be fair. This mostly stems from the fact that there isn't any punishment or counter that can be done for using it to get to a window or pallet. It should also be mentioned that most people who use Dead Hard will use it for that scenario, since it has no downsides and no risk of backfiring (besides of course they did it too early).
"Dead hard can be baited at pallets"
Now, here's where it gets a little tricky. Dead Hard can be baited at pallets yes, I've done so many times and downed people as a result from that mistake. However, this usually only works at loops that have funky obstacles in the way like rocks or bushes, it doesn't really work at loops that're long with a straight shot to the pallet.
This of course is only semi-true though, since if you actually do catch up to them at a "long loop", than they'll use Dead Hard to avoid the hit, which allows you to just walk to the other side mid-animation and hit them. But this only really works if you're right behind them and they're right at the pallet, making the scenario unavoidable for them.
So in a way, it's very hard to say it can be baited at pallets 100% of the time, it really depends on what you're given and what happens in that given moment.
"Is this just a complaint post?"
No, it's a debate I would actually like to bring to the attention of the community to better discuss Dead Hard. I only bring it up now due to how common the perk is at this time, which makes the issues of the "Dead Hard for Distance" meme a lot more prominent.
You can argue this was sparked by my hatred for the perk, as mentioned above, but it's mostly brought on by the issues I see with the perk itself and why I think it's unfair in certain cases.
"If this is to get the perk nerfed, that's impossible"
No, this isn't a debate to get the perk nerfed, lets get that out of the way. It's a debate to discuss why I feel the perk is unfair and to see what others might say as a response in a civil manner. Yes, it would be impossible to nerf the perk itself without making it basically worthless.
If we're talking about a scenario where Dead Hards distance is reduced, it would make it a lot less effective due to the Killers lunge being able to "out distance" it. So yes, it would be impossible and no this is not to get the perk nerfed.
Something important to note about the discussion itself
After some discussions below about the perk itself, I failed to mention some important key points that I want to address in this edit. Dead Hard by all means is a "helper perk", which means the perk itself can add to a chase and even other perks as well.
With that being said, Dead Hard can also hinder a chase depending on who's using it, what scenario they're in, the killer they're facing, etc. So when discussing the perk itself, it really does depend on WHICH scenarios that're fair or unfair, not just the main point I focused on above.
The perk itself in the right conditions can be very underwhelming or very overwhelming, it really depends on what it's being used for and what scenario we're talking about. This means if the perk is being used for distance, than some like myself consider it to be unfair. If the perk is being used for complex loops, saves, etc, than it can be considered to be fair when you involve a players skill itself and what they're using it for. The perk itself can also add to other perks as well, which makes the discussion more complex when you consider this into the mix.
It should be kept in-mind that some might focus on different scenarios that others are not talking about at all. So it's good for us all to keep an open mind when bringing up each individual point, as it really does depend on many factors that're presented with the perk itself.
With that all being said, I look forward to this discussions continuation.
conclusion
If I missed something above than I'm sure someone will bring it up below, but I would like to say that I do hope this discussion will spark a civil debate on the perk itself and what it's used for. I look forward to what will be brought up as an argument or addition to the post.
I'm open to discussing all avenues of debates that're on-topic with the post itself and I will do so in a respective manner to both perspectives. So please, feel free to agree or disagree, I'm open for anything that's reasonable to discuss.
Comments
Dead Hard is mostly fair because the most optimal uses are the most high risk. Like charging right at the Killer and timing the swing just right to get to a loop or out a gate. Or using Dead Hard at razor thin margins to get an extra loop.
Sometimes it works amazingly... other times it fails because you mistime it, there's lag, you get stuck on the Killer's hitbox or the perk flat out bugs. So because it's never 100% consistent and there's always a level of risk to it, its fair mostly
Yes,but they are still not compareable to dead hard.
All the other exhaustion perks only require me to walk a bit longer to catch.That can be annoying sure,but it's not that much of a big deal.
Dead hard however lets you recover from situations where the killer put in a lot of effort to get you in (like a carefully aimed shot by the huntress or deathslinger,a precise blink from the nurse,a regular mindgame etc.) very easily and it's exactly that which feels awful and pretty much unfair.
Just dodging a hit with dead hard (when the killer would have been able to wait out the dead hard) or using it to get another loop is just fine and pretty much the same like all the other exhaustion perks.
Yes bloodlust is more or less he same type of frustration,which should be looked at once all the maps and loops are balanced enough for that,but at the very least the killer wastes a huge amount of time to get that one hit.
Sprint burst doesn't let you dodge:
-bear Traps
-punishment of the damned
-shots from huntress or deathslinger
-shreds
-pigs ambush
-a blink from the nurse
-a lethal rush
You can also make plays with dead hard and borrowed time
Sprint burst however just makes it easier for you to get to the next loop near you without having to pay that much attention to your surrounding.
You never want to use dead hard to dodge hit,because of how easily the killer and your ping can prevent that.
If you want to use it optimal then you use it to get that extra bit of distance to a window/pallet after being too unattentive or greedy at the loop.
It feels kinda unfair because you can easily nullify great mindgames from killers with a simple push of a button.
The invulnerability makes it the best exhaustion perk in the game. I'd say it's unfair and a crutch. A perk like this makes hard games even harder for killers, and that's not really fair. I say we remove invulnerability and make it so that it is only a 'for distance' perk, which can still be annoying but is pretty fair and fits in with the logic of other exhaustion perks.
It's not fun losing a hit from a successful outplay because the other person pressed E inside of you. And it would also negate the annoyance of 'I PRESSED E' complaints since it wouldn't be intended to make you invulnerable, but to get you away from the killer.
@OniWantsYourMacaroni
Right because if it did SB would be able to get immunity it would be broken as hell. Dead Hard doesn’t give enough distance to legitimately do anything aside from what it currently does. Hence why I said it is a close range exhaustion perk in a pervious comment.
Also, Sprint Burst does allow you do dodge even if you don’t have the immunity because your movement is faster. I have dodged hatchets and all the other powers you listed before.
Of course you can dodge hits with sprint burst,but it's waay easier to bait out the sprint burse than dead hard.
Most of the time it's enough to fake the hit/ability to force the SB but in quite a few cases you have to commit to the hit/ability in order to get rid of dead hard.
Dead Hard for dodging hits is fair because its unreliable and risky. Dead Hard for distance is fair mainly because Killers have perks to shorten the distance in chases like Brutal Strength, STBFL and Bamboozle. If Killers can lessen the distance made in chases with perks, it's fine for Survivors to increase the distance made in chases.
My only problem with DH it's when it's used to counter a trap, because the Trapper has already too many, and mostly easy, counters.
Otherwise i think it's a strong but fair perk, one of the few "skilfull" perk.
I do dislike dead hard for distance but the fact that using it as a “dodging” perk often times fails so much it’s much more useful to do it for distance rather than letting the killer and your ping put you on the ground with the exhausted effect.
But the ideas and explanation brought up really helped me with viewing other things in a different light so thanks
Point taken, but I guess within the trial where the contact is physical it would be nice to have at least that part of the realm making sense (I'm ignoring Huntress hit boxes as well :D).
This is why I consider it the most unfun thing in the entire game.
Against a standard M1 killer it's insanely powerful. You can DH for distance to a strong window/pallet and the killer can't do anything about it. That just adds so much time to the chase. If you mindgame them you should feel rewarded but then tap E to undo and you end up feeling robbed.
If you play a ranged killer like Deathslinger, Huntress (without add ons) or to an extent Plague you sometimes only have a small window to make a shot, you manage to get one in but they nullify it with DH. Sometimes you can go for long range skillful shots with DS or Huntress and it's a really good and impressive shot, but again instead of feeling rewarded you feel robbed when they render it void by tapping E.
Finally you have Blight and Nurse. It doesn't matter if you see DH coming or not, even if you don't swing you're still taking the stun. It's just another stun and cooldown you're forced to sit through until DH is out of the way.
DH is a reason why I don't like playing killers like blight/nurse/huntress/deathslinger, because it sucks the fun out of them by being able to perfectly counter their abilities without any counterplay itself. It's also why I think Huntress should keep her exhaustion add ons but all signs point to them being taken away from her sooner or later.
DD and DH are the most broken perks in the game. There was already a study done by some redditor who ran 100 games and saw 86 of those games had DH and 92 games had DS.
thats insanity. DH needs to be turbo nerfed into the ground
Wouldn't that make basement trapping overpowered. In most cases dead harding through the trap is nessacary to be fair
This argument that it counters most killers i feel, is not convinced enough. This is another a perk that can be used multiple times in a row. If you dead hard over one trap, you can't dead hard over the next one. If you dead hard demo shread you won't be able to dead hard the next. A lot killers can easily recover from missed special attacks. Also this idea that you can undo all the hard work that the killer did to get a down is a bit flawed to me. If a person has For The People and use it on a survivor the killer just down, they technically undid the hardworking the killer did to down the survivor. BY PRESSING A BUTTON NO LESS. Isn't that also unfair? And if it is why don't we persecute For The People like we do Dead Hard? Why don't we go around calling For The People unfair?
It's the best exhaustion perk in the game when it wants to be. Sadly dedicated servers ruin it.
Because you waste a huge amount of time to get that For The People opportunity,you need to be healthy,the killer has to be stuck in an animation AND you need windows and pallets nearby in order to not get downed within the next few seconds.
As you would see something like For The People or flashlight saves are prwtty much high risk high reward plays that need quite a lot of effort to pull off.
Sure,you can easily recover from most missed special attacks,but the time you lost because of that adds up and can quite possibly lose you the game.
But Using dead hard also comes with high risk and high rewards. If you think about jt being injured at all is a high risk, it you don't have a way to heal yourself or don't have a means to make being injured less bad. And the reward is dashing forward in an attempt to reach a pallet or douge a hit.
How much of a big time loss there is by missing a special attacks that doesn't take long to recover from. You also have to take into account addons that reduce recovery time and cooldown. And perks like brutal strength, enduring, Spirit fury unrelenting, and others can also help with the time dead hard takes from making the extra distance to the pallet.
I mean, they could just remove the distance entirely and give it a few seconds of invincibility frames to dodge a hit. That'd solve the distance problem and I can still see it being used in the meta, just not as a distance perk anymore.
Well the issue with that is than the lunge from the Killer can easily out distance it, which removes the possibility of dodging it without the frames themselves. I think if they did the opposite and removed the distance THAN it'd be more reasonable AND the distance/mistake correction issue would cease to be.
Not everyone runs those perks though to prevent that, some Killers don't use them at all and they're M1 Killers. Usually Brutal is something you'd see on PURE M1 Killers like Wraith or Pig who really need it, while on GhostFace or Myers they can get free hits easily while focusing on perk builds that're centered around their stealth abilities.
Also in the case for "DH for Distance" STBFL wouldn't do anything if you can't hit them in that scenario, Bamboozle can only do some much at certain loops, and Brutal Strength would just reduce it by a few seconds... but they'd still possible get to another loop anyways.
It really depends on which scenario we're talking about yeah, some are unfair while others are.
No problem, glad the post could help out in some way.
I suppose, it really just depends on what can be realistic while other aspects of the game are not.
I wouldn't turbo nerf it into the ground, but changing it to remove the distance part would probably make it less used and more centered around skill based Survivors. Which by all means is a good thing since the meta is already stale for Survivor and somewhat Killer.
As I mentioned to someone else who brought that up, I rarely see Dedicated Servers ruining the perk in my Killer games. Ironically if I used it as a Survivor I'd probably see that issue come up, but for my Killer games I've only come across it probably 3, 4, 5 times at most. It really isn't as common as some think it's, but perhaps I'm just lucky (or unlucky if we're talking about me being the Killer).
That is a possible fix, tbh.
See I think more important matters are map rng you can have one version of map with 10 pallets vs a map with 3 pallets there are alot more important things that affect the game then dead hard.
Yes, there is a lot of other important things to address with the game right now, some more important than others. That doesn't mean we should ignore other issues because they're less important.
There's a lot of things that could use tweaking or changes, but focusing on just one at a time isn't really something that should be an issue. If we compiled EVERY issue in the game, than I'm sure it'd be a mile long list that hundreds of people added to. There are even some issues that're not even issues, but some people disagree that they're.
Basically what I mean is, ignoring Dead Hard for a bigger issue doesn't fix the other issue... if that makes sense.
DH's invulnerability is fine. Using DH for distance isn't. It allows for the survivor to make it to another full loop that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to.
If DH allowed a survivor to tank a hit without a speed burst and forced them to mend afterward, then I'd be okay with it. It would be a self proc'd borrowed time without a speed boost after being hit. A killer could somewhat counter it with STBFL.
i've seen a lot of complaints about perks on here but dead hard? wow...
One of the strongest perks in the game?
To the survivor they see a small distance boost 1 second, they don’t see the ripple effect and the full strength of DH
Like with old DS when the excuse was “its just a 4 second stun whats the big deal?”
Exactly why exhaustion needs a downside, like heavier breathing.
Dead Hard removes you being punished in a chase by being outplayed, or you making a mistake, by allowing you to be safe instead of going down. It allows you to make pallets/vaults you otherwise wouldn't. This amounts to a ton of wasted time and pressure toward the killer. All four survivors can use it like this, all four survivors can have it up every chase. It is, by definition, completely busted.
Sprint Burst allows you to sit on a gen until the very last moment. No fear of BBQ. No fear knowing the killer is looking at you. No fear the killer is coming toward you. You safely add gen time to a generator and sprint to a pallet, completely safe. It removes the ability to punish a survivor palying greedy and rewards you for being selfish.
These perks are, by every account, broken. Yet they'll never be changed and no one complains about them because 90% of the playerbase is incapable of using them to their maximum effect. If you want to know a clueless survivor who is bad from a good survivor, look and see if they mention, even once, using DH as a reaction, and not for distance.
This is completely ignoring the fact it completely counters some killers powers. Imagine being a Nurse and using 2 amazing blinks to get a hit, but it gets outdone by a DH. So you enter fatigue, stun, recharge and the survivor gets a ton of distance. This applies to other killers, like Blight. This is severe against M1 killers. It works against, say, a Trapper's trap. It is competely broken, like all Exhaustion perks.
If the pallet and window dead hard dash annoys you, which granted, is always a bit frustrating when survivors escape your grasp because of it, but that does not make the perk outright unfair. Just like there are many other useful perks for survivors to utilize in order to gain an advantage in chase, dead hard is just one tool in larger pool of possibilities to choose from. Yes, it's the most popular for a good reason, but again, that should not play a role in whether it's unfair because everyone's using it so it must be unfair like many tend to say or at least imply.
Killers have a lot of annoying tools in their hand as well which to bring under question whether they are fair or not. Dead hard is not a free one round loop perk. It works sometimes and sometimes it does not, just like any perk pretty much. Heck, sometimes it even crashes players to a wall and makes them lose a chase early.
The thing is, a good killer knows that Dead hard is not a perk that the survivor decides when to use, but when the killer forces them to burn it in a bad spot. It's about mind games around loops. If you chase like an NPC, the survivors can extend the chase to a ridiculous length with the help of the dead hard.
One important note for killers is to know when to give up a chase. Far too often do I see killers playing the infinite chase against someone who is way better than them and can just loop them forever, especially with dead hard. Give up the chase, go do something else and try again when the survivor is in a bad spot or has already spent their dead hard.
Considering all this, I really don't see dead hard an unfair perk in any way.