Scott details the issues people have with "boring" killers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h10-JuLwEU
When people say Spirit for instance is "boring," everyone knows what they mean but they get the copy+paste "git gud" or "jUSt mInDgAMe hER" kek
just wanna see what people here think from the person that is generally viewed as fair voice in the community as both "sides" tend to respect him.
Comments
he has noise notification when aiming at u, he has to aim unlike huntress and an animation oh and actually good hitboxes, he also has to reel u in or break the chain unlike huntress
He doesnt have to aim, he can quick scope. Tap M2 and M1 instantly thats why no tell or time to react
sure
I don't believe any killer is boring. Every killer, regardless of tier, can be a huge threat if they are practiced with enough. I've seen a Clown dominate my team. I've even seen a Legion dominate my team on Ormond Resort of all places. Some killers obviously have advantages in the right hands and that's what makes them extremely dangerous, like Nurse as an example. Yet just cause Clown and Legion are bottom tier, doesn't make them harmless. I've also dominated as Legion. Every killer is unique and takes sometime to adjust to. Someone trying a new killer out with one perk obviously isn't going to dominate.
No it's not juking the deathslinger its guessing correctly and mindgame are using past interactions to make a decision in a chase mindgames actually require you to use your brain rather than guessing whether hes gonna shoot.
WHAT
the only thing survivors can do against a semi-sentient killer is loop, good killers dont "avoid" looping, they try to end the chase as quickly as possible, not walk away from a survivor at the first sight of a pallet lmfao.
Hiding in the corner of the map or holding W in a straight line is what rank 20s who just bought the game do and expecting survivors to play like that is laughable at best
No it works in most of the maps. Also survivors who juke arent morons they juke because they dont want to get shot. You are telling me right now you wouldnt try to juke a deathslinger that aims in.
I said he needs a nerf because he needs counter and a buff to his map pressure. Zubat being good doesnt mean anything as all he did was press m2 a couple of times and hold w I didnt realize that's skill but I guess?
My comment wasn't about playing AS but playing AGAINST. Can't you read properly?
Well this isn't when the game first came out. Seeing how it's a core part of the game, I'd say it isn't an exploit. I have no clue who these better killers you refer to are since good killers know how to tackle loops. If somebody is wasting your time or at a really strong part of the map, then yes, good killers do avoid chasing them until they can afford to. Otherwise they're probably not better killers.
The reason why did not like Legion or Old nurse add-on is because they created predetermined outcomes in the match. The survivor is not suppose to have a perfect counter to a killer. If that is true, than you can just say that whenever killer X shows up, do Y. Its partially what happens for M1 killers. Your argument suggests that when huntress pulls up a hatchet, the only person that has input is the huntress players aim and not the survivor that wiggles. Countering a killer should be partial, It shouldn't be something that completely makes the killer power irrelevant. In regards to your DS+Unbreakable video, I've found that the best way to deal with the combo itself is to let DS activate and to treat combo like old Mettle of Man because the extra time that DS stalls hurts you more in the long run than attempting to play around the timer. It just sucks to play against because its direct loss of killer momentum for nothing and it makes you commit to tunneling for what the perk was suppose to discourage. Who knows, maybe they'll make DS deactivate when another player is hooked to prevent multiple DS timers being staggered. I think Tru3 kinda wishes that killer is strong enough to go for 12 chases so that the survivors fun in a chase is maximized. that is kinda why I think he defends strong killer design.
I don't thnik you understand my post. Using past interactions to outsmart your oponent is one part of the mindgame, its still a guessing game using information to make the most educated guess possible. So part of that mindgame is predicting and avoiding killer powers. Where is the trapper likely to trap? Will the slinger shoot or is he faking it? and should I swing wide now or later to avoid the shot? same again with huntress or is bubba just reving to fake me out of the pallet or are they going to go for the full saw?
The term mindgames is used specifically for some aspects of DBD gamplay but if you think its just about when to moonwalk or not near walls then you are kinda missing the point of killer powers. They are part of the midngame. Your ability to predict or guess what the killer will do is how you successfully counter killers and their powers. Its also how you outsmart survivors and get hits.
You seem to think guessing equates to random actions hoping you are right, when utilzing prior interactions to best predict your oponent is just making an educated guess about behaviour, sometimes there is a lil luck involved too.
I can't tell for deathslinger bc I couldn't play when he was released and now I just don't find any game against him :^). But I understand what he says because I play the plague and I just feel like there's no skill needed. I know that if I contaminate the first survivor and then down him I know I get 2 black vomit (don't know the English name) and I've rarely seen a survivor capable of dodging it. I do think there's no skill during the chase but all you have to do is just make sure to create a contamination loop. And I thinks it's fun for me but for the survivor it's like they're just lucky if I don't chase them. However I don't think having this kind of killer is a bad thing bc it's not like an actual competitive game and more like a casual game...and people who play casualy need these killers where it's just being smart and not really skilled. Also people sometimes forget that dbd is one of the first of it's genre they have no other games to a analyse and see the mistakes they made. Like Overwatch is "well" designed but there was so many other games before it.
thats exactly what i meant, i like playing them, as in i like playing/versing the killers mentioned
You gotta be pretty bias to think not a single killer has an issue with balance.
100% agree
He is right imo. Spirit is unfun, I always lose more mindgames than win against her. If you don't have Iron Will, its GG after you get hit, and even with IW the odds are stacked against you.
Deathslinger is just unfun to a severe degree. Windows are unsafe, long hallways are unsafe, he can zone you with instant ADS with minimal penalty to catch up. So only option is stealth or run away early so you get a head start but he will catch you because you cannot run in a straight line, and if you zig zag he closes the gap. Better try running in a way so you are out of his line of sight, but ohno, you are on a map with a big open areas or low piles of garbage he can see over. Now he caught up to you and you are dead.
Pyramid Head, is sharing the seat with Deathslinger in terms of unfun to go against. Damned if I do, damned if I don't, at every pallet and window so he gets a free hit. Run to the next pallet and you are downed. Options against PH? Stealth? Run away early? Drop every pallet early you come across in a junglegym and hopes he is not able to have an easy time to shot his ground attack behind the wall? So you waste every safe pallet and basically screw over your team.
Freddy is boring depending on addons and perks. Do I even need to say Forever Freddy?
Plauge would be ok, if my damn solo queue teammates didn't cleanse and give the killer her power which has resulted in everyone getting slugged. I still don't understand people who cleanse. You NEVER cleanse against Plauge. I don't care if the fountain is across the map, your friend on the hook is getting camped or if she is running Thanatophobia. Just don't give her machine gun vomit.
These are the worst that come to mind right now.
Yeah guessing is random actions which is what you are doing against pyramid head,deathslinger and spirit. Mind gaming does equate to more educated guessing but atleast mindgames require you to use the information from pass chases like their play style or habits a guessing game doesnt give you any of this especially when it's pretty much just casino gambling.
The biggest problem I have with his argument is that it seems to ask for all killers to be countered in the same way. "Survivors want to be able to play against killers using the skills they've already developed." IMO that is what makes the game boring
As a survivor you should be developing several different skill sets in order to counter the wide variety of killers. Sometimes that skill is going to be playing more of an immersive playstyle. If every killer is countered by running to the closest loop, running in circles and when the killer gets too close throw a pallet, then run to the next loop and repeat, the game will become stale. In all honesty I'd rather see the number of pallets reduced and have more tiles added that actually use player's skill. The more skilled a player is at running a jungle gym and mind gaming the more effecting the tile will be as a counter. This approach would work against all current killers.
Another problem I have with his argument is that it calls for more nerfs to unique killers rather than looking to address why those killers are chosen and effective. The reason seems to be they are a response to the survivor playstyle.
When new killers are developed their unique power seems to be in response to the current survivor meta. When survivors are playing out in the open with no fear of killers we got Ghost Face that could stalk and insta-down. When gen pressure was and lack of a second objective was becoming a big problem we got a killer that could place portals around the map which encourages the survivors to take the time to close them. Freddy's rework followed this same pattern by giving him extreme map pressure, it gave him powerful tools to ######### down chases, and it added a mechanic which encouraged survivors to take tim off gens in order to wake up and render his powers while in a chase useless. When survivors refused to heal in favor of rushing gens we got Oni. Before map reworks we got Deathslinger and a Doctor rework that were much more effective at shutting down infinite loops and poor tile placement. And now Pyramid Head which can negate many of the second chance opportunities for survivors. If you want to stop the production of killers that become increasingly stronger in a 1v1 situation you have to address the way survivors can play and make weaker killers ineffective.
The last part if his argument that really bugged me is he was quick to dismiss others. He said if you believe survivors only find killers they have difficulty with your argument is invalid and "childish". I think he should have at least considered why people feel that way. And for me personally I think it's mostly true. When these discussions come up it's mostly the top tier killers, the killers that require a different playstyle, that get labeled as boring. Take nurse for instance. She was called OP and boring for as long as I can remember. Now she's been severely nerfed, is rarely seen (almost never seen on consoles), and when she does pop up there's a high chance of beating her. In a recent thread asking people to list their 3 favorite and 3 least favorite killers to VS, Nurse was regularly placed in the top 3 to play against. It can't be a coincidence that she went from being the most boring and OP killer in the game to now being one of the weakest (in most people's hands) and suddenly one of the most fun to play against. Dismissing someone else's argument doesn't make it invalid or nonexistent.
In short I hope this doesn't come across as a Scott Jund hate thread. I don't know him personally but I like his content and I believe he wants the best for the game and the community. He often makes fair points and addresses true balance issues on both sides. It's just this particular arguement, especially when it comes to Spirit, that I think he has a strong bias about which leads him to making bad points and suggestions.
how did you just manage to guess the shot really well? sO mUcH SkIlL JuSt NeEd tO OutPlAy LuCK, what part of versing cowboy man takes any skill give me an example that isnt just "juking the shot"
Just so you know, the big majority sees it the same way as you, and you were not biased at all, actually more objective then most people around. Thanks for that constructive video, there is really nothing to add anymore. Im sure devs will watch it, the only question is if they learn from it. Keep going!