Barbecue and Chili and We're Gonna Live Forever Changes(?)

Dihydrogen_Monoxide

I want to start off by writing I don't believe these perks are broken in any way, what I want to get on about is potential changes for these perks.

Starting off with Barbecue and Chili, this perk pretty much always has a reserved spot in a Killer's loadout and has for three years since Leatherface came out. At this point, it seems like it limits a Killer to just three perks to play around with. The change I believe this perk could use is to make the Bloodpoint stacking part of the perk baseline instead of being the main reason this perk is taken. Don't get me the wrong, the aura reading is still very strong but it gives more potential for another perk to be chosen.

We're Gonna Live Forever I believe needs a slight rework too. I see two ways to down this path, one aligning similarly to the BBQ change (to make this perk baseline and do something else), and the other to give you stacks in a different manner. The first idea is something I can't really think of, as this perk is more of a one affect deal, where BBQ is a two parter.

The second idea is in line with making your stacks more available. Even if BBQ weren't to be changed it's rare a Killer doesn't get 4 stacks by the end of the match, whereas with We're Gonna Live Forever you have to rely on two things - the Killer actually getting a hook, as well as another Survivor not saving allowing you to. To counter act this you can just take a hit instead, but at the same time your injured teammate may not be in a spot for you to take a hit (they could be vaulting, you could be on the other side of the map), or also praying to god these broken hitboxes hit you and not said injured teammate.

What do you guys think?

LiunUK

i don't think bbq needs a change but i agree that WgLF needs another condition seeing as you are competing with other survivors for unhooks. maybe make it that you get a stack if you do the equivalent of 1 whole gen it would be more akin to bbq on how easy it is to get stacks especially as WgLF does not give you any other benefit unlike bbq's aura reading

Joelwino

We just need double bloodpoints base or to remove perk tiers. The current system was created around three killers and four survivors, not nineteen killers and twenty-one survivors. Now leveling everyone up without BBQ/WGLF takes an eternity.

DelsKibara

@Joelwino said:

We just need double bloodpoints base or to remove perk tiers. The current system was created around three killers and four survivors, not nineteen killers and twenty-one survivors. Now leveling everyone up without BBQ/WGLF takes an eternity.

Just to do the math because I feel like it:

To take a character from Level 1 to 50 requires roughly around 1.750.000 Bloodpoints. Times that 3 times if you want to prestige the character, then there is a minimum of 5.250.000 Bloodpoints just to Prestige 3 Level 50 ONE CHARACTER. In total, there are currently 39 Characters for both Survivors and Killers. Meaning if you want to Prestige 3 Level 50 all of them, you need 204.570.000 Bloodpoints AT A MINIMUM (This is assuming you get are incredibly efficient with your Bloodwebs.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, if you want to get every perk in the game, you need roughly around 35.000.000 Bloodpoints. So, 1.750.000 away from the initial levelling and you still need 33.250.000 Bloodpoints to get every perk in the game on a single character. Which means you need to accumulate AT MINIMUM 1.296.750.000 Bloodpoints alongside the 204 million you need to Prestige 3 Level 50 every character in the game AND THAT IS IF YOU ARE BEING AS EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE WITH YOUR BLOODWEB GRINDING.

Eternity is putting it mildly. Because this number can make BBQ and WGLF seem MANDATORY to some.

supersonic853

@DelsKibara said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1275632#Comment_1275632

Just to do the math because I feel like it:

To take a character from Level 1 to 50 requires roughly around 1.750.000 Bloodpoints. Times that 3 times if you want to prestige the character, then there is a minimum of 5.250.000 Bloodpoints just to Prestige 3 Level 50 ONE CHARACTER. In total, there are currently 39 Characters for both Survivors and Killers. Meaning if you want to Prestige 3 Level 50 all of them, you need 204.570.000 Bloodpoints AT A MINIMUM (This is assuming you get are incredibly efficient with your Bloodwebs.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, if you want to get every perk in the game, you need roughly around 35.000.000 Bloodpoints. So, 1.750.000 away from the initial levelling and you still need 33.250.000 Bloodpoints to get every perk in the game on a single character. Which means you need to accumulate AT MINIMUM 1.296.750.000 Bloodpoints alongside the 204 million you need to Prestige 3 Level 50 every character in the game AND THAT IS IF YOU ARE BEING AS EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE WITH YOUR BLOODWEB GRINDING.

Eternity is putting it mildly. Because this number can make BBQ and WGLF seem MANDATORY to some.

And dont forget the devs want you to get it on the switch on console and phone which theres no cross progression. I finally just maxed my stuff on ps4 and then got a gaming pc and thought id get dbd. Back to playing for another 2k hours to max again...

cheetocultleader

@DelsKibara said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1275632#Comment_1275632

Just to do the math because I feel like it:

To take a character from Level 1 to 50 requires roughly around 1.750.000 Bloodpoints. Times that 3 times if you want to prestige the character, then there is a minimum of 5.250.000 Bloodpoints just to Prestige 3 Level 50 ONE CHARACTER. In total, there are currently 39 Characters for both Survivors and Killers. Meaning if you want to Prestige 3 Level 50 all of them, you need 204.570.000 Bloodpoints AT A MINIMUM (This is assuming you get are incredibly efficient with your Bloodwebs.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, if you want to get every perk in the game, you need roughly around 35.000.000 Bloodpoints. So, 1.750.000 away from the initial levelling and you still need 33.250.000 Bloodpoints to get every perk in the game on a single character. Which means you need to accumulate AT MINIMUM 1.296.750.000 Bloodpoints alongside the 204 million you need to Prestige 3 Level 50 every character in the game AND THAT IS IF YOU ARE BEING AS EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE WITH YOUR BLOODWEB GRINDING.

Eternity is putting it mildly. Because this number can make BBQ and WGLF seem MANDATORY to some.

Leveling feels so daunting now... 👀💦

csandman1977

BBQ is fine.

WGLF needs rework. Something like tying it to emblems. Do a gen get a token. Win a chase? Get a token. Unhook someone get a token. Heal someone get a token. Only one of each. Basically play a normal game get tokens

Joelwino

@DelsKibara said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1275632#Comment_1275632

Just to do the math because I feel like it:

To take a character from Level 1 to 50 requires roughly around 1.750.000 Bloodpoints. Times that 3 times if you want to prestige the character, then there is a minimum of 5.250.000 Bloodpoints just to Prestige 3 Level 50 ONE CHARACTER. In total, there are currently 39 Characters for both Survivors and Killers. Meaning if you want to Prestige 3 Level 50 all of them, you need 204.570.000 Bloodpoints AT A MINIMUM (This is assuming you get are incredibly efficient with your Bloodwebs.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, if you want to get every perk in the game, you need roughly around 35.000.000 Bloodpoints. So, 1.750.000 away from the initial levelling and you still need 33.250.000 Bloodpoints to get every perk in the game on a single character. Which means you need to accumulate AT MINIMUM 1.296.750.000 Bloodpoints alongside the 204 million you need to Prestige 3 Level 50 every character in the game AND THAT IS IF YOU ARE BEING AS EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE WITH YOUR BLOODWEB GRINDING.

Eternity is putting it mildly. Because this number can make BBQ and WGLF seem MANDATORY to some.

That's ridiculous. Maybe you should post that as its own thread, it's worth talking about

CosmicParagon

Honestly just give both sides permanent 2x BP, there's way too many characters for the current rate of BP gain

Hex_KillerMainBTW

WGLF could use some reworks. However, making them double BPs baseline will make it to where people wouldn't even bother to tier them up. If we made it to where perks don't need to be tiered up then it'll be implemented to other perks without having to put much work into it. Don't get me wrong, I actually wouldn't mind that idea seeing as how much easier it would to prestige characters (something I don't want to do since I have all the perks I want on Plague) and that's a good 7 million+ BPs just to do that

RaSavage42

I think that a general BP change is worth talking about

The devs have a lot of work ahead of them to makes the changes needed for a growing game and playerbase

Maybe adding more perks to the shrine... increasing BP gains overall... adding more ranks (the numbers only)... adding another objective besides gens totoms and the exit gates for survivors (giving killers more time to do their objective... kill)

Just my 2 cents on it

DelsKibara

@Joelwino said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1275709#Comment_1275709

That's ridiculous. Maybe you should post that as its own thread, it's worth talking about

@DelsKibara said:

https://i2.wp.com/nerdlodge.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/killerbloodpointsdbd.png?fit=1920%2C1080&ssl=1

We all know Dead by Daylight is known for it's Grind. It's what keeps us playing the game, it's what keeps us going through the same loops over and over again and it's why we love to play this game getting as much points as we possibly can for every single match. It's why farm games exists and why (some) people love it when they pop up because it gives them a chance to get a ton of guaranteed bloodpoints for everyone involved in the match.

With that said, I think The Massive Grind is going to become a real issue real soon. Especially with new players who are just joining the game and started playing.

I calculated the amount of Bloodpoints needed to get every single character to Prestige 3, Level 50 with all Perks obtained. Prepare to see some huge numbers.

Since I want to talk about new players specifically, I'll focus on the one thing most new players will most likely do when they first start playing the game. Get as much teachables as they can as soon as possible. Because they want to have fun builds, they want to be able to survive against Killers or Survivors who have (arguably) better perks than them. So let's just assume this New Player wants to grind for every teachable in the game. First they would need to level every Character to Level 40 at a minimum.

It takes a minimum of around 1,250,000 Bloodpoints to get a single character to Level 40. Let's then multiply that with every character that is currently in DBD, there are currently 21 Survivors and 19 Killers. Bringing the number to a total of 40 Characters to level up to Level 40. Which brings the amount of Bloodpoints you need to 50 Million Bloodpoints. If you show this to a new player, they would find this to be incredibly daunting and tedious.

But I hear you asking, "Kibara! Not every one of those characters has perks that are worth to grab!" And you would be right. So let's just remove the characters whose entire perk deck are not in the current meta, very situational or are just not worth to grab in general (Bolded Perks are up for debate on whether or not they are worth getting):

• Ace Visconti (Up the Ante, Open Handed, Ace in the Hole)
• Quentin Smith (Wake Up!, Vigil, Pharmacy)
• Jeff Johansen (Distortion, Aftercare, Breakdown)
• Ash Williams (Mettle of Man, Buckle Up, Flip Flop)
• Steve Harrington (Babysitter, Camaraderie, Second Wind)
• Zarina Kassir (Red Herring, Off the Record, For the People!)
• The Huntress (Beast of Prey, Territorial Imperative, Hex: Huntress Lullaby)
• The Demogorgon (Surge, Mindbreaker, Cruel Limits)
• The Oni (Zanshin Tactics, Blood Echo, Nemesis)
• The Deathslinger (Gearhead, Dead Man's Switch, Hex: Retribution)

And with that, we eliminated 10 (at least in my opinion) characters that you don't need to grind for because their perks are (arguably) not worth to grind for. That still leaves us with 30 characters whose perks are definitely worth grinding for though. Not only do these 30 characters have useful perks, some of them are downright powerful that you would be nuts to not get as soon as possible.

You would be nuts to not go for Dead Hard or BBQ & Chili from the start of your DBD Career, because these perks really REALLY help out a lot in escaping, chasing, detecting or even giving you free Bloodpoints.

Now that we have that sorted out, how much BP do we have to spend now?

37,500,000.

That is STILL A LOT of Bloodpoints. And to any new players, if they saw this number they would find that incredibly discouraging. Because they see the cap is 1 Million Bloodpoints, so they would think 1 Million is a lot of Bloodpoints.

Oho, but we're not yet done with the Grind Train yet, my friends. It gets even more exponentially expensive. It's like playing an Idle Game except you need to always be active to gain cash.

Let's assume those new players become regular players, and they want to fully prestige their characters. They see those bloody outfits and they want their own characters to look like that. Well, if they want to fully Prestige their characters with level 50 on all of them, lets do the math again then, shall we?

To get a Level 1 Character to Level 50, you need roughly around 1,750,000 Bloodpoints. To get A SINGLE CHARACTER to Prestige 3-50, you need to multiply that number 4 times. Meaning the grand total amount, the MINIMUM amount you need to spend on a single character to fully max out their levels is 7,000,000 Bloodpoints.

Yikes! That's already around 1/6th of the amount of Bloodpoints required to gain every teachable that is worth it in the game.

And of course, per our formula, we need to then multiply that number by 40 (assuming they want to prestige every single character in the game to it's max level). After that, we get a grand total of 280,000,000 Bloodpoints to max out every single character is this damn game.

That is a ridiculously large amount of Bloodpoints. I've played for 1.5k Hours in this game and I've only accumulated around 100,000,000 Bloodpoints myself. But hey, you can argue that it needs to be that expensive because Prestiging a character is Optional. You don't have to do it, which is why it's so expensive, it shows you're willing to put more time into the game. And I get that, it is meant to be more of a reward system for loyal players rather than an actual grind you have to overcome.

But what if you want to experiment with Perk Builds? Something that is a part of the game, and arguably, half the fun of Dead by Daylight to some people (myself included).

You would obviously need every single perk in the game to be able to actually experiment with the perks you want to play with. And here is where the massive numbers come in.

It takes roughly around 35 Million Bloodpoints to get every single perk in the game, and that is already close to the minimum we need to get for every single TEACHABLE that is worth to grab from the various characters in DBD. Reduce the number you need for Level 50, and you still need 33,250,000 Bloodpoints. (Keep in mind, I am assuming this character is Prestige 3, which means they already need to spend 5,250,000 Bloodpoints already on a single character.)

Arguably, you can be conservative and say that since every Survivor plays the same. You only need to get it for one Survivor and you'll be able to play with every perk in the game as much as you fancy.

But what if you play Killer?

Every killer plays differently, meaning not every build will work for every single one of them. You may need to mix-and-match separate perks to see what works well for you for that particular killer. So, you might end up grinding Bloodpoints to earn every single perk in the game, for every single Killer in the game if you don't have a single main you always play as.

Meaning, once again, we take the number 38,500,000 Bloodpoints (Assuming they start from Level 1), and we multiply that by 19.... And we get...

731,500,000 Bloodpoints.

And that is the best case scenario, that is assuming the Bloodweb doesn't screw you over by eating up multiple perks at once which has happened to me loads of times when I was maxing out Spirit. That is still a ridiculously huge amount of Bloodpoints, especially for Killers.

Now, if we add up every single Survivor as well, that number skyrockets to...

1,540,000,000 Bloodpoints.

Seeing this number and doing the math makes me think that perks like BBQ and WGLF are sometimes Mandatory because of how ridiculous this grind can be.

This reminds me a lot of PAYDAY 2 prior to them adding the Crime Spree mechanic. You needed to grind hours upon upon of XP to get to Infamy-XXV and you get diminishing returns because doing the best heist in the game for XP over and over again will incur you an XP penalty. It was brutal and unforgiving.

With Crime Spree, yeah the heists became harder but the rewards became much more worth it, it became much more rewarding and the time spent to grind greatly diminished making it easier to grind for Infamy-XXV.

But DBD has nothing like that, With BBQ you'd be lucky if you got 64,000 Bloodpoints in a single match. I just cannot fathom how someone, especially DBD Content Creators, could spend that much hours, that many matches of the same game to max out every character in the game to it's fullest potential. It must be a huge feeling of relief when you finally reach there.

After doing the math, I really hope BHVR takes a look at BP gains, or at least the Bloodweb Mechanic. Because right now DBD is incredibly hostile to new players, and it's driving people away more than it encourages them to stay because of that looming grind over their heads. And I think it would be better for the game, and the playerbase as a whole, if the grind was not this huge.

That's all I have to say regarding the Grind in Dead by Daylight.

Thank you for coming to yet another one of my TED Talks, it is now 6 AM and I have not slept.

EvanRaven

Barbeque is a very neat perk for farming and seeing where everyone is which is probably why it's in every single loadout. I believe it's fine and easily countered.

I think the other perk should have a second effect, maybe something to do with auras? Idk.

Respectfulnancymain

@supersonic853 said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1275709#Comment_1275709

And dont forget the devs want you to get it on the switch on console and phone which theres no cross progression. I finally just maxed my stuff on ps4 and then got a gaming pc and thought id get dbd. Back to playing for another 2k hours to max again...

If i were you I'd just wait till they make cross progression a thing

NoShinyPony

The real problem is that we have now way too many characters and perks in the game for the amount of bloodpoints we are getting out of a match, not BBQ/WGLF.

Milord

Yeah, I think WGLF can be expanded so you can get stack from doing other things. Given the description, you should be able to gain stack from Distraction, Killer Grasp Rescue, and aggressive play (Killer Stun, Killer Blind, etc; dunno if they want to encourage more people bringing flashlight though).

EvanRaven

@milord you can get stacks from flashlight saving and pallet saving too.

Dihydrogen_Monoxide

@[Deleted User] said:

Wouldn't want BBQ to be baseline, imagine the killers that have a power that greatly increases the strength of it with BBQ, being able to have the aura read for free with a 4th perk taking its slot.

That wasn't what I said. What I said was the Bloodpoint stacking of the perk be baseline, not the aura reading.

pizzamess11

@Dihydrogen_Monoxide said:

I want to start off by writing I don't believe these perks are broken in any way, what I want to get on about is potential changes for these perks.

Starting off with Barbecue and Chili, this perk pretty much always has a reserved spot in a Killer's loadout and has for three years since Leatherface came out. At this point, it seems like it limits a Killer to just three perks to play around with. The change I believe this perk could use is to make the Bloodpoint stacking part of the perk baseline instead of being the main reason this perk is taken. Don't get me the wrong, the aura reading is still very strong but it gives more potential for another perk to be chosen.

We're Gonna Live Forever I believe needs a slight rework too. I see two ways to down this path, one aligning similarly to the BBQ change (to make this perk baseline and do something else), and the other to give you stacks in a different manner. The first idea is something I can't really think of, as this perk is more of a one affect deal, where BBQ is a two parter.

The second idea is in line with making your stacks more available. Even if BBQ weren't to be changed it's rare a Killer doesn't get 4 stacks by the end of the match, whereas with We're Gonna Live Forever you have to rely on two things - the Killer actually getting a hook, as well as another Survivor not saving allowing you to. To counter act this you can just take a hit instead, but at the same time your injured teammate may not be in a spot for you to take a hit (they could be vaulting, you could be on the other side of the map), or also praying to god these broken hitboxes hit you and not said injured teammate.

What do you guys think?

They touch BBQ I riot as I think it's perfect where it is. It's not op at all but it does have heavy incentives to use it that dont effect the actual games themselves just how fast you get BP and the auras is just a really nice bonus. They'd have to make the BP part of the perk inherent to all killers for me to not care if they rework BBQ.

Clueless

@csandman1977 said:

BBQ is fine.

WGLF needs rework. Something like tying it to emblems. Do a gen get a token. Win a chase? Get a token. Unhook someone get a token. Heal someone get a token. Only one of each. Basically play a normal game get tokens

This is actually crazy to close to perk I made in a fan-made chapter i am working on. Great minds think alike lol.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/106/Survival Guide.png There was an error displaying this embed.

Milord

@Clueless said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1275722#Comment_1275722

This is actually crazy to close to perk I made in a fan-made chapter i am working on. Great minds think alike lol.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/106/Survival Guide.png

The only problem with your perk is that there's only 3 chests by default, so someone will miss out. I'd replace it to healing another survivor.

Clueless

@Milord said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1279271#Comment_1279271

The only problem with your perk is that there's only 3 chests by default, so someone will miss out. I'd replace it to healing another survivor.

Sorry about double post got confused by the approval thing.

Clueless

@Milord said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1279271#Comment_1279271

The only problem with your perk is that there's only 3 chests by default, so someone will miss out. I'd replace it to healing another survivor.

I like the idea of just adding healing as a fifth option, I like the chest one for some chest perk builds possibilities.

Dzeikor

bbq does not need any change,w gonna live forever however does,it needs an extra effect just like bbq has