Coffe_e
Coffe_e
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The main problem with the Haste/Hindered changes imo was that they were trying to balance both roles equally, when Haste and Hindered provide different levels of benefit depending on the role (a 105% Survivor gains more chase time overall than a 120% Killer, due to how Distance/Time works with two objects moving at different speeds), and the lack of visual/auditory feedback for Haste/Hindered effects. The latter is self-explanatory, but the former is what I'd like to bring to attention:
There's two problems with the current dynamic between Haste perks and Roles, that combine into a much bigger problem:
The first is that Killers get a mathematically smaller decrease to their chase time compared to Survivors. If you use the math equation 'Distance divided by Speed Differential equals Chase Time', or [D/S = C], you can see just what I mean. The speed differential is typically 4.6m/s minus 4.0m/s, the Killer/Survivor default respectively, but can vary. The math results in Survivor Haste/Hindered effects being around twice as effective as Killer Haste/Hindered effects for chase time, with a 4.8m/s Killer saving roughly 8 seconds (8.333~) compared to a 4.6m/s Killer for chase time, but a 4.2m/s Survivor increasing chase time by roughly 17 seconds (16.6666~). This dynamic is pretty much built into physics, not only DBD, due to how Distance over Time works, so we can't avoid that really.
The second is the difference in design philosophy between Killer and Survivor Haste perks.
Haste/Hindered perks on Killer, with a few exceptions, are almost all Timed. 10 seconds after an M1 for Rapid, 10 seconds after getting an M1, and then vaulting for Unbound, etc etc. Perks that defy this are typically still limited in some way. Batteries requires you to be near a completed gen, AKA somewhere you don't want to be as Killer. Noed has it during endgame/tied to a Hex, though its other effect is still lame.
Haste perks on Survivor, with the exception of Exhaustion perks, can all be effectively infinite. Hope activates when endgame starts, and stays active 100% of the time after. MFT activates and stays active while deep-wounded. Dark Theory applies in an AoE that the Killer can disable, but has to actively do so to prevent it. Blood Pact and Power of Two both require two survivors to be together, but stay active as long as that condition is met.Both Hindered perks for Survivors (Chemical Trap and Champion of Light) are both timed, and IMO are fine. Their High value actually messes with Blight/Billy/other high mobility killers enough to be good against them, and I like that personally.
Killer perks provide less of a benefit than the math above due to having durations, while Survivor perks can more consistently get value that approaches the maximum value possible during chase due to not having time-based restrictions. Survivors are able to have a better Haste effect for longer than most Killers can have theirs, and that causes the problems with MFT/Hope that we saw before. While they're restricted, they're not restricted in the way Killer perks are. A 10% Haste increase for Survivor gives them roughly the amount of time that a 20% increase in Haste for Killer would.
Not only that, but Killers have many more restrictions on their Haste perks than Survivors do. Ex: Unbound requires you to Injure a Survivor, then Vault, within a set time frame. Then you get 10s of 10% Haste. Four overall restrictions. It requires you to Injure, it Requires a vault, it only activates for a set time, and its Haste is time-limited. In fact, due to their time-limits, almost all Killer Haste perks don't even end up stacking with each other. Rapid will often run out until you can vault for Unbound, and even if you do, vaulting takes around 2-3s of your Rapid's duration without other vault speed perks.
Power of Two and Blood Pact require you to Heal a Survivor, and stay close to them, granting you 5% and 7% Haste respectively. Two restrictions, with no time limit, and an Innately bigger time gain on chase than their 'equal' Killer Haste values. (Effectively a 10% and 14% Haste increase, or 24% Haste combined if you wanted to save the same amount of time in chase as Killer). Due to their lack of a time limit, Survivors can stack their Haste effects easier than Killers can, which results in these issues.
Its a whole hodgepodge of really weird design decisions that add up to be a problem, and this doesn't even take into account a bunch of other factors:
How people feel when they have to deal with these. Being slow feels bad, while being fast feels good.
How Haste/Hindered affects lower mobility Killers like Trapper or Freddy way more while not typically affecting Blight, Nurse, or Billy. Nerfing Haste stacking would be nerfing the build options for Killers who don't need those limits.
How Haste/Hindered perks shorten or lengthen the distance between loops/tiles, and affect map traversal time.
How limiting Haste/Hindered makes 'more design opportunities', but also encourages you to just never run any Haste/Hindered perks together, while just increasing the amount of perks that likely will still be niche.
How the design of the perk effects how its perceived. I don't mind Buckle Up stacking with other perks, since it discourages slugging (a playstyle I, and many others find boring). No One Left Behind encourages risky altruism. Babysitter and Borrowed Time both discourage tunneling. The new perk Duty of Care, if balanced properly, could encourage risky altruism and help prevent Tunneling. Meanwhile, most Exhaustion perks are just a free large Haste boost that you can use every like 40s. Perks like Dark Theory are a time investment, but also make the Killer go out of the way to deactivate it. They're kind of boring, or frustrating, to deal with.
Its a bunch of stuff we gotta consider when suggesting changes, and there's not gonna be a perfect solution. Stacking Haste is fun, for both sides, but it can cause frustration when it gets out of hand, and with the current setup we have, Survivors can make it get out of hand more than Killers can. We should treat them as they are, and how they effect the game mechanically, not lump them together. -
Nah, being able to leave when in losing scenarios is good to avoid being bled out, or being held hostage. The main problems they're having is just understanding what constitutes a win, and the edge-cases where players specifically try and abuse mechanics to get an advantage. This system would be great if survivors lost when not doing gens for 10m, but should probably be 'no gens or chase time for 10m' to avoid the edge case where a killer refuses to start chase while standing in the middle of a 3gen. The system isn't flawed, BHVR's understanding of how the system should work is flawed, and we should give feedback on what the problems are, and how to fix them.
Hell, i'd be fine with killer losing if it was a situation where survivors were being held hostage. It'd probably work if you had a very specific condition like 'A killer has downed, but not hooked survivors for 5 minutes' or something.
Its their choice if they listen to us or not. If they don't, they're just gonna cause the game's playerbase to peter out. (Doesnt help that the community is also extremely divided between a lot of stances either, or not willing to do research on numbers) -
I don't think people know how different haste/hindered really is when applied to either a survivor or killer. Haste effects on survivor are insanely strong mathmatically, while killer haste/survivor hindering perks have innate diminishing returns on reducing chase time, which only really affect killers without much mobility in the first place.
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This is really the only problem I have with the PTB changes. I think the perk was fine before. It was niche enough that if you were the kind of killer player that likes to focus on chases, and defend gens as little as possible, it was perfect for that. It also provided nice build variety for things such as endgame, or goofy haste stacking if you wanted to focus on going as fast as possible. I don't really think that the 'permanent' 5% haste during endgame (truly permanent on maps like midwich or the game, but much harder to use on maps such as lery's or red forest) was too strong, especially since survivors have similar access to such a perk.
But TLDR, I think Batteries Included was fine, and this patch would be perfect without the change to it. A Reversion would be nice, but I don't really see BHVR doing that in time.
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It's an event, it's meant to be goofy and fun, not something serious. Playing to win can get taxing a lot of the time, so learning how to have fun without winning is very important in order to get enjoyment out of events, and just the game in general.
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I think that the only real change mending needs is for altruistic mending to be much, MUCH faster than regular mending. (1/3rd of the time, possibly)
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This could also be due to them HAVING aura perks, but their loadout is incorrectly displayed due to the Random Perk event archives being bugged when not playing in anonymous mode (It shows the random perks you should have gotten in the endgame screen, but actually equips the killer with their previous loadout)
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467310#Comment_3467310
It reduces the Overclock duration by 80% instead of 20%. So it’s worthless.
They mentioned that the Description was mistaken, instead of the actual stats. They'll have that fixed soon, but the addon is still useable.
(Edit): I incorrectly assumed due to most of the known issues in the recent patchnotes that soma family photo was that case too, but I just checked and realize that yes, it is actually bugged like this. However, the killswitch is usually dedicated for gamebreaking bugs (like wesker leaving his model behind), so I would just not use it until it gets fixed.
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this is likely due to the fact that the random perk event archives sometimes don't equip the perks properly, leaving the killer with their previous loadout while showing the randomized loadout in the endgame chat.
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@Mandy said:
Thanks for the suggestions here, we do have a few changes for the EMP's in particular ready for an upcoming hotfix. We'll be looking at reducing the EMP crates themselves to 4 per map, the generation time increased to 100s (currently 90s), and Survivors will also be slowed whilst charging an EMP by 10% as well as increasing the EMP charge time itself to 2.5s from the current 2s.
Duration of the pod disabling from an EMP will also be decreased down to 45s. There's also some score changes as we noticed Devious points were a little on the low side.
How do those sound?
I've mainly been worried about the quantity of these changes and their results on the more casual side of the playerbase, since pubstomping isn't exactly the most fun to deal with.
Also since everyone's giving their feedback i'd like to ask: What were the team's thoughts on boxes not passively printing if a Survivor has an unused EMP from said box, if they've considered that at all. Im really curious.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369203/pre-midchapter-ptb-feedback
Very constructive feedback, very professional manner
Appreciate the compliment, thank you!
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@The_Krapper said:
The fact that the community is up in arms and acting like they can't live without it makes me happy it's getting nerfed, when you have to rely on a perk every game thats a skill issue if you cant play without it , the killer role is still in the best place it's ever been out of the entire existence of this game and nobody can prove otherwise whenever you go back a couple years and you could have two survivors with BNP that actually popped gens in like 10 secs each then the other two with insta heals that could run up as soon as you downed someone and pick them up to full health from dead and restart everything from scratch people don't realize that anyone that was here before has dealt with way worse conditions and most of us are thankful for the amount of changes over the years that have made it easier to play killer, instead of being old trapper with all your traps and hooks sabo'd in the beginning of the game and having nothing but basement the WHOLE game hopefully being lucky enough to have iron grasp on so you have a chance.
I do understand what you're trying to say, but im not advocating to avoid change entirely. I just wish to avoid perk options being removed by over-nerfing and making the meta even more stagnant than before, since variety is what we should be looking to encourage for DBD.
I also understand that the Killer role has gotten much better over time than it was before, and I appreciate BHVR for pushing for that, but I dont think that "we have it way better than before" should be an excuse to over-nerf things. We should be striving for Balance after all, and not just putting perks down to the level of current Ruin. Jolt/Gift of Pain should be the middleground we strive for.
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@HugTechLover said:
Instead of already complaining about it, why not just wait and see how it goes? The change hasn’t even been PTB tested yet.
I do understand that the changes haven't gone live, but from a numbers standpoint 10% current regression just isn't worth it for the activation requirement. I was fine with pop getting that treatment due to it cutting gen progress by 1/5th, but for small-scale regression like 5-10% it should probably be flat.
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@Jallybwan said:
Hi, I'm one of the people who has to run Shadowborn on certain killers to not get motion sick. What ideas did you have for a Shadowborn rework? :)
My mistake for not responding sooner, as I only visit the forums every so often, but I actually have a post on my profile that lists a bunch of changes i'd like for many perks in the game, as well as shadowborn, but i'd be happy to post it here:
I imagined that Shadowborn would be the Lethal pursuer for the undetectable status effect, while providing it's own activation effect:
"When you exit chase, you gain the Undetectable status effect for 15 seconds. The length of all Undetectable status effects is increased by 6 seconds."
While the numbers are a bit more shoddy in my eyes, I feel this would fit wraith's whole "original stealth killer" vibe, and let you pull off some funny plays/grabs.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
Honestly i think with the latest global buff trapper really isn't that weak anymore
I'm not sure if he still needs help
That's fair, but I feel he's still in the same spot relative to the cast since EVERYONE got those changes y'know? He'll still be on the low end, able to be messed with easily compared to someone like Billy or Wraith.
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@Lyonic said:
I appreciate that trapper got the ability to carry an extra trap but still feel he is very weak compared to the likes of nurse, blight etc.
How would you bring trapper up to their level?
Would you include any addons as basekit?
I actually made a post in Feedback/Suggestions about how I'd buff trapper.
In terms of addons basekit, Probably Trapper Gloves and Makeshift Wrap. The ladder seems like something he'd always bring to trials.
As for changes/reworks not involving addons? Make trap-disarming a single, slightly smaller Skillcheck without a great zone. If the Survivor fails the skillcheck, or gets interrupted by any means, they become trapped. This makes disarming traps committal, so survivors cannot just constantly try to disarm traps when you chase them off of it. The skillcheck would also have great synergy with Unnerving Presence, his own perk.
In exchange though, i'd be totally up for if the basement couldn't be trapped just to make sure basement trapper doesn't suddenly spike in power.
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I also encountered this bug today, after giving hatch to a Felix at 3 gens.
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I just got both the survivor and killer xp bonuses for today and it's a little confusing since idk if I already got yesterday's when I tried before 4pm, but either way I think it'd be nice to have some kind of visual indicator, possibly in the daily rituals menu to show what EXP bonuses you've claimed for the day.
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@Mandy said:
I can send a private message to those who've not received them yet but have played as LF. I will need to know who to send the message to.
Good to know, I haven't gotten my shards yet even though I used bubba to reach Iri-1 before the midchapter.
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@Mandy said:
Anyone still not got them...I will need your cloud ID's to check this
How should we send the Cloud IDs?
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Because maybe one day, BHVR will understand how their players feel about the game's state, mechanics, or other aspects, and actually act on what would be best for the games health.