tolore
tolore
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yeah absolutley, i'm a killer main, but i play survivor some, and trying to get cakes has been super sad.
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yeah I think it's because they share spawn rates with the anniversary items like flashlight and med kits and stuff. at least levelling someone from 1-50 feels like i get about as many anniversary items on survivor as i do on killer, it's just that for killer there is only cake.
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@SeaSkimmer said:
Won't go into too much detail on the killers but so many are now OP! Lose BBQ and chilli. The game is basically hunt and seek and to have so many killer perks where they know where you are just defeats the purpose of the game.
My main problem is with your unfair ranking. I lost TWO ranks because my computer crashed, how is that my fault? how can your game not tell the difference between someone choosing to quit and "out of my hands network failure"?
In one game I cleansed a totem, unhooked a person healed them and completed a generator and STILL lost a rank, how can that be?
Yet other games I do less and gain a rank. Your game makes no sense in ranking.
The game can't tell that kind of stuff, no game can/does. if you just stop sending messages to the server, it could be because there was an internet outage, it could be because your computer crashed, it could be an internet outage, or it could be that you task manager force quit the program, it could be because you pulled the network cable, it could be because you kicked the modem.
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yeah totally agree on the BP for the hooked person, it's on my list of changes of I'd make to make camping feel less bad. I do not at all favor the removing of BP or ANY punishment for camping. There are too many variables wh ere IMO, camping is a totally legit option, no system involving punishments will hit only degenerate cases. What if there's a pallet/gen I need to kick, should i let those powerful objects stay because i don't want to camp? What if there's TWO regressing gens, should I not defend two regressing gens and a hook? What if there are two close together hooks, and i got two survivors on them? should I just let t hem get unhooked? What if I'm a new player and don't have BBQ, and i have no idea what to do? should you drain literally ALL that new player's BP? that's a ludicrous punishment for a non crime.
not to mention the suggestion as written was "10 seconds" if a killer doesn't know where to go and chase the first survivor they see they could still lose thousands depending on how long it takes the first survivor to get there. Suggestions like that just seem like a childish attempt to hurt people you don't like without a lot of nuance.
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yeah i don't like any solution that rewards bad plays by survivors. IE in this case, if I hook someone and someone walks up in front of my face and unhooks them that's their fault not mine, it sucks for the guy who got unhooked but it's not the killers fault, the killer shouldn't be punished for it.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2304621#Comment_2304621
At the very least the cannibal should not start with an instant down power. It is a VERY rare occasion I get a good match against this killer. I also don't consider my suggestions as nerfs because I personally do not believe he should have the instant down power to begin with. Again, this is my OPINION and feedback on this killer. I am quite certain that I am not the only person who plays survivor in this game who thinks this killer has too much power. I see the most disconnects and hook give ups against this killer than all of the others. Why? Are you just going to say its the survivor's fault for not playing better or will you realize that a lot of people that play this game are just trying to have fun and find this killer to be an extremely unfun one to play against?
As far as rework suggestions go, obviously the chainsaw is there to stay. How about this for an idea. What if the cannibal was able to take fuel from the generators to power his chainsaw and every time he does it the generator regresses or takes longer to repair? The cannibal can start with a full tank but will need to refuel the more he uses the chainsaw. That way the killer gains an extra way to apply gen pressure but also keeps the ability to use the chainsaw but at a consequence. You see that is my biggest problem with his power. Its the fact that he can use it the entire match. If at the very least he had to do something to be able to keep using it, but also gained an advantage against survivors by doing so, then I think that would be more fair than what he is able to do now. I personally do not like instant down abilities. I think they take away the fun of the game in many ways and just cause overall frustration.
See, that's an actual rework, you're taking away the thing you don't like about him but giving him other ways to apply pressure/win. I like that idea, if he's got fuel to fill up he gets a mini Pop effect and gains fuel back, also gives two axis to balance him on. he's got gen pressure and one shot down potential.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2304445#Comment_2304445
Actually I did suggest a rework a few times already in this thread. You said so far I haven't, which isn't true so you'd do well to at least be a little more informed before hitting that reply button.
i've read the entire thread, your reworks are just nerfs. Making him do something to power up to a one shot kill, and giving other status effects. That is a straight up nerf, all status effects are worse than "downed", downgrading his insta kills to broken or whatever isn't much of a rework. I have even replied to you in this thread about your "reworks", so i've pretty clearly been keeping up with it. The closest you ever got was saying "what if he didn't get to one shot but got more stuff to do" but the only time you've talked about "more stuff" it's applying debuffs with the chainsaw. Unless you are also removing the rev time or speeding him up instead of slowing him down while revving, "the same chainsaw attack as before but sometimes doesn't one shot down" is not a rework, it's a nerf, and it's a nerf to a killer who is already in fine. He's worse than a majority of killers you've mentioned being okay with, and one of your comparison points is "why does meyers have to work towards his instan down", A. Meyers gets stealth built in and faster vault speeds B. meyers is widely regarded as TRASH, he's consistently named one of the worst killers in the game.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2304293#Comment_2304293
If you think my opinion on this is entitlement then me saying several times here before that some of my most fun matches are ones I die in is kind of going against the supposed entitlement attitude you think I have. I don't have a problem with dying in this game. The happenings of the match aside I still think his power is too much. And why wouldn't a rework of the character be a good thing? What if he was given 2-3 different things he could do that don't involve instant downs? A killer who's only ability is 1 thing that does the same thing doesn't sound all that interesting to me. I think Nemesis is cool for example because he gains more power with the more he interacts with the survivors and environment.
you so far have not been asking for a rework, you are trying to make him strictly and SIGNIFICANTLY worse.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2303474#Comment_2303474
Running to the exit gate and pressing your ability button isn't getting "destroyed." There was no outplayed loop. There was no mind game win. There was no read of decision making. It was just them checking the exit gate and pressing a button that takes me from full health state to dying state. No killer should have this much power the entire match. The things some people consider balanced here are very strange to me.
well again, you are massively misrepresenting what happened. He did not press a button and kill you. Hi held a button for several seconds, moved slow for those seconds, and made a ton of noise giving you warning. I agree that what cannibal did probably didn't take a lot of skill, but it sounds like you messed up pretty bad, or the game bugged in someway(no terror radius and no chainsaw sound sounds like a bug or an oblivious survivor).
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For sure, the problem is the game also isn't fun if i'm better enough than the killer, or if one of my allies is too much better/worse than the enemy killer. Even if you remove all the games where i just get wrecked, still a majority of the ones leftover aren't super fun because I barely interact with the killer. And worst of all, if I have a super good round as survivor, I also don't get any BP, so i don't even get the fun of advancing my account much.
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@DoomedMind said:
Well, I play as Killer as Survivor, and their gameplay are different.
It is a bit simple to say that playing survivor is only to repair gen. The fun part of the surv' gameplay is to outplay the killer. I play survivor to loop the killer, or find fun or useful builds as there is a lot of perks.
Yeah the problem to me is that the number of games where I get to do that stuff is very low. Killer too bad? I loop them for like 10 seconds and they leave, or they lose me immediately. Killer too good? they catch me immediately. Heck some games I don't even SEE the killer because they refuse to give up chasing another survivor.
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Sounds to me like in this particular scenario there's a couple possibilities.
1: there's a bug and you weren't getting terror radius or chainsaw revving sounds in which case let's find and fix that bug as a suggestion, not gut bubba
2, He had stealth somehow, and chainsaw is bugged to be silent, let's fix that bug instead of gutting bubb
3, he had stealth and stealth intentionally hides chainsaw revving sounds, in which case we can talk about if using stealth perks along with chainsaw revving needs to be adjusted
4, you were just didn't hear the warning, in which case everything is working as intended, if you somehow don't hear bubba coming at you with a chainsaw that's on you.
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I mostly agree, survivor is incredibly dull to me, the only fun parts are h iding from the killer and getting chased from the killer, occasionally saving allies from the killer. with gens being the ONLY true objective though, the fun interactions basically only happen with killers of exactly the right skill level for your team. if they are too good people get downed too quickly and you spend the entire game getting wrecked. If they are too bad sometimes you'll never even see them, or if you do looping will be so easy it's boring. Blood points are the same, if you are enough better, or worse, than the enemy killer you get nothing.
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well it's a permanent instant down the requires several second to charge up while simultaneously slowing the cannibal down, makes a bunch of noise, and requires them to not hit any obstacles. if you stick to areas with walls and windows you're fine, and if you get caught in the open before he starts revving try and get to a window before he's done. if there's no way to get a downed survivor without going in the open and cannibal is not leaving maybe the answer is to just leave. Being good at stopping you from unhooking someone after end game collapse doesn't make him over powered.
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It sounds like you have a pretty different experience with cannibal, his one shot down is threatening but it has lots of counters, and his lack of strengths other than the one shot down really puts him in a pretty middling spot. Like I said, I think it's going to be hard to win a lot of converts if your conceit is that cannibal is actually too strong overall. windows and pallets stop hjim/slow him down, he has no built in tracking, has no built in map mobility, has no built in slow down, his one shot down still requires him to essentially win a chase + a little extra for rev time/slow down. He's really not that strong at all. not bad for sure, but not particularly amazing.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2299986#Comment_2299986
The ability to instantly down survivors is what he will get. Cannibal should have to earn his instant down power. So many killers have to play addons or work up to gain more power in a match but cannibal just starts with it. It isn't fair and I don't say that lightly. As I said before, it feels like he gains too much for little effort. Also I said above that they can add extra effects for chainsaw hits without the instant down to give a reason to use it until the chainsaw can instant down. From a survivor perspective, being knocked down fast isn't fun and unless you have a really good place to utilize the cannibal is probably going to down you very fast.
yeah but you are strictly making cannibal worse by making him have to earn the right to on ehit kill, even if you make the chainsaw do broken status effect or something when it's not one hit killing. You are going to have a hard time getting support for making a killer strictly worse outside of like, spirit and nurse.
for game design if something is not too strong, but is unfun to fight against, you have to suggest a change that makes the counterplay more fun without weakening the target, which usually means adding and subtracting things. not just subtracting.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2299788#Comment_2299788
When a killer is not fun to play against the reasons why people say he isn't fun to play against should be considered. As far as what to do to change him, how about make his power conditional? Let him earn the instant down power instead of always have it. How about for every successful M1 hit he gains meter progress to gain the instant down power on his chainsaw for a duration? If he downs a survivor or goes too long without using it the power resets and he is able to gain it again. When he doesn't have the instant down power allow the chainsaw to apply other effects like deep wounds or broken for a duration.
So what compensation will he get for earning this one shot down. As has been said in this thread, he's already largely considered a middling killer. If you want to make his one hits significantly worse he's going to need some other buffs to keep him at all competitive. Unless you think he's actually secretly top tier, in which case i think we need more evidence that that's actually true.
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I like this solution a lot, I do think on the killer side the number one feel bad moment is finding your first survivor quickly, and having a good chase on them, and still losing 2-3 gens before the hook happens.
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it has a charge time where he's super loud and moves slower than usual, he can't just whip out the chainsaw, if you got caught by surprise by cannibals chainsaw that's on you.
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As far as promoting game health, I do not think it's healthy for the game to incentivize the killer to leave the hook if the entire team is around hook. I am both pretty sure BBQ prevents FAR more camping than it causes, if you can't "staying around hook until you see someone you know as there" as camping, that's camping I'm fine promoting. I actually don't really even consider normal camping unhealth y if the killer chases off hook when they see someone. IMO it's the survivors job to encourage the killer to leave hook, either through doing gens or presenting a target to be chased.
BBQ promotes game health pretty unequivocally, and it's tracking affect isn't even top tier, Tinkerer, thrilling tremos, sometimes whispers, etc... are all much better, and all of those are likely still not OP. There is not a reason in the world to nerf BBQ, it's arguablythe best designed perk in the game, and if anything it should be made a general perk instead of teachable.
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Killer main chiming in here, I actually disagree with the core premise. 90% of survivor messages in post game are positive. either simple GGs, or "good try that was a tough game" when i get stomped. Occasionally accused of tunneling, but even those exchanges are short. It's actually weird because some of the most tocxic I've felt like survivors were in game were some of the nicest/politest post game interactions i've had.
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you can still have crappy business practices even when people don't HAVE to buy your product.
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I don't have strong opinions cannibal, but i think he's largely considered a pretty mid tier killer, not great, not horrible.
BBQ though, I think is widely regarded as the most well designed perk in the game. It does everything you want for the health of the game. It rewards killers for not camping/tunneling, It telling the killer where to go after i strong(ish), but having that knowledge makes a killer less likely to just stand by the hook. For purely knowing how to find survivors, there are way strong perks than BBQ and chilli, I guarantee if you nerf BBQ to the point where it's used less, survivors will be found easier, and camping/tunneling will happen more. The only reason BBQ and chili is as popular as it is is because of the blood point gain.
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my idea for an anti camp perk, inspired by leons flash bang.
A flash bang that charges based on time allies spent hook, it charges faster the longer someone stays before getting unhooked. Once used it's a fairly long blind/deafen(no stun because i don't want it knocking people out of killer hands in the late game), and places a bunch of scratch marks on the ground so the killer can't track where you went after the unhook. You can play with the charge valuies and stuff, the main target would be, almost guaranteed hook saves, and guarenteed to get it charged if the killer camps, only moderately useful if it's used late game in non hook save situations.
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This thread comes up a lot, and it should it's a legit issue. I mostly think you can't solve this problem by just nerfing killers, or p unishing their rank/BP. Basically every survivor suggestion that tries to fix this problem has a TON of ripple effects that are going to nerf killers who are not face camping, or hit killers in a situations where they are essentially forced too(IE what if there's a bunch of pallets/gens to kick and defend arou nd the hooked survivor). You might be able to make some special cases for that like "the survivors bar doesn't go down unless the killer is in chase, or there's a pallet close by to kick and the killer doesn't wait too long, unless there's gens regressing nearby, etc.. etc.." but the rule becomes complicated, how do you communicate to the killer player what they are and aren't "allowed" to do around a hooked survivor?
I think the solution should be constructive rather than restrictive. let's add BP rewards/rank points to the survivor team b ased on how many people survive the match so if someone distracts the killer for a long time and doesn't do gens or escape they still get rewarded. Let's give BP gain to a hooked survivor if the killer stays near so it at least isn't a wasted game bp wise if you get face camped. Let's put BBQ style bp gain on kindred, it's already considered a meta perk by some high end players and is a powerful information tool around camping. Let's unlock BBQ and Kindred on every killer by default, so new baby killers can get the info they need to know where to go after hooking someone, and survivors can see if t hey don't. Let's think up some new perks. Maybe a variant of leons flash grenade, that charges up based on time allies spend hooked, so either in the end game, or as a hook save, you can run at a face camper, drop the grenade for a blind. To make it different, and more targeted in purpose, maybe it doesn't stun(no forced drops in end game), but it adds a ton of scratch marks to the ground so the killer has a hard time following where the unhooked people want.
I'd like to see a lot more threads like this rather than "how can we limit what killers can do".
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don't forget hatch spawn, that's ridiculously luck based for BOTH sides
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basically no one i know DCs from games for any reason. To be frank I think the people who want DC's both over rate how many people "leave the game because they can't DC", and miss out on the point that THAT'S GOOD. I don't want to play with someone who's going to dc in the match, I would rather a smaller community with longer queues than have anyone DC in any of my matches. So if DC penalties drive certain people away from the game that's working as intended as far as I'm concerned.
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Oh really? I though tit was if you didn't tap gens/totems, learn something new every day.
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Don't birds start appearing and teling you where they are if they haven't done anything in a few mintues?
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I am totally fine with the suggestion of seeing peoples pings. I will add to the pile of evidence though, as killer when there's lag I find it much harder to get hits. It's true that if it LOOKS like I get a hit I pretty much always get it, but other players do totally warp around, which can be hard to target/track Not sure if that's what lag on my end looks like or lag on the survivors end though. it's a pretty rare occurrence either way.
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"So far, the idea hasn't been very complex. Slow the hook progression if the killer is too close to the hook, unless the killer is in a chase or the fifth gen is done. Shouldn't be too hard to signify either, we have a UI element for the hookstate progression that's visible to both survivor and killers, you can plant the info there.
And it's not like there's no other unexplained game mechanisms. Bloodlust was never declared in the tutorial, neither is the co-op repair speed penalty. Which is confusing marked with a fast forward icon."
I actually think in general, bad information display is a huge problem in the game. There's tons of stuff I never in a million years would have noticed without other people pointing them out. Heck the current mechanic around hooks, where you get less blood points for hanging around hooked survivors as killer, I only know about because someone mentioned it. Much like that blood point loss, the information has to not only be available, but if you want it to actually convince someone not to camp it has to be actually ALERT them to the fact that they are being punished.
And as for the it's not that complex, it's not that complex YET, and your description I already disagree, it needs more cases where the hook state goes down at normal speed. Chief among them is if there are regressing gens nearby(or gens that could be kicked), pallets to break, etc...
"Here's the thing: Solo play exists. Without coordination and communication, it's actually not unlikely for camping to be effective because the timing is way more narrow than people like to pass it off as. Most campers still secure more than one kill because you can't communicate to teammates that they need to split off onto other gens and rush it out. Even if everyone knows how to handle camping, if they're not fast enough on figuring out that the killer is camping, that's an extra kill. If they don't know about co-op penalties, that's an extra kill. And if the hooked survivor is dead before the fifth gen is done, that could even be a 3-gen due to reckless genrushing.
People are saying it's very easy to counter, and on an individual level it is. But every single teammate needs to know this too and even then there's some pitfalls that can cost you too much time."
I also think you are overstating the general effectiveness of face camping, and the inherent RISKS of doing it which are huge. This kind of play can be punished super hard, if the survivors just finish the gens they're on and work together to get the hooked survivor off the hook(BT is insanely common) you can end up with something like 2-3 gens done and still get someone off the hook for either a hook trade or a couple hits. Barring something like a one shot down killer in a basement(which i would probably agree basements are their own category of questionable design) I don't think even the hardest of face camping is as unstoppable as survivors tend to make it out to be.
I ALSO think that entire paragraph leads more to my point, the tools to counter this strategy exist, BEFORE hard nerfing killers or adding convoluted sets of rules to what exactly killers are "allowed" to do, we should be rewarding, promoting, and teaching the counters to this play style. Hard to tell if a killer is camping? Let's put a huge BP bonus on kindred so more people take it, it's already considered by some high end players. Requires communication? People have been pitching a ping system/some sort of base communication on this board, that sounds great. crappy for the person being camped? Lets give them a bunch of bonus BP for any time a killer spends next to t hem as hook, still sucks but they can at least feel like they are contributing. Heck give them more bonus points if they're allies get away/do a bunch of gens while they are camped so they are directly benefitted. Heck, the new flash bang perk might be great for this too. In the same idea space, a new item could be added for survivors similar to the flash bang, one time use, hard blind/deafness that doesn't cause the killer to drop someone, make sure one always spawns in a chest somewhere on the map. I just think the design space is both more interesting with constructive design around this problem rather restrictive. Pretty much every suggestion for this problem by survivors is, what can we take away from killers, or what how can we punish them for the behavior. I think there are solutions to this problem that can be found by making the game more interesting, and expanding player options and agency, and it's disappointing that more people aren't in that boat.
edit: man the more i think about the flash bang perk the more i like it, a perk similar to leons that charges up based on how long long allies have been hooked, and the longer the same ally is hooked the faster it charges, it gives you a one time use item that basically insures a hook escape.
edit again: could be a blind followed by X seconds of the killer can't see scratch marks or something. That might be too strong for non hook saves though, just a late game universal "blind + no scratch marks for X seconds" might be too strong.
edit the third: oh maybe instead of removing scratch marks, it ADDS scratch marks that last like 10 seconds longer than the blind to the entire area the blind effected.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2255343#Comment_2255343
Do you know how inconsistent these standpoints are?
Killer brings NOED: 'just stop genrushing and do totems'
Killer camps: 'just genrush'
So what if the killer has both, then? Not to mention how much killers (rightfully) hate genrushing, but hey, I guess it's all fine and dandy because for some godforsaken reason, we need to do our utmost to protect what is the absolute worst thing about this game.
'Just bring an anticamp build!'
'Why do survivors always bring the same loadout? I'm sick of seeing UB, BT, DS all the time!'
Literally every counterargument against camping comes down to 'just make the game worse'.
And, again, you know that problem with gen speeds being too fast? Can't be addressed as long as camping exists.
You put the blinders on, call it 'easy to counter', you refuse to look at anything else. You don't care about the overall impact on the rest of the game, you don't care about its impact on how enjoyable the game is.
Again, if every killer camped, this game would die in under a week. No matter how easy it is to counter.
So i think the big disconnect here, is that for killers, every solution to camping survivors seem to favor is "make the game worse". NONE of these threads that get popular have solutions that won't hit legitimate non face camping killers, and none of them have solutions for new/bad killers. You have to think like a game dev, you can't just say "let's make the struggle time longer if the killer is near" "ok that's a good point if ANOTHER survivor is in terror radius, or a chase is happening let the meter still go down" "oh okay, if there's a gen close to the hook the killer is protecting let the struggle time still decrease also" etc... by the time you've hit all the abuse cases you have an incredibly complicated rule set for what can be done near hooks. Now you have to MESSAGE this ruleset to players well enough that new players to your game can understand it. Complicated rule set with bad messaging isn't going to stop new killers from face camping, they aren't going to know what they're doing is wrong. Then even experienced killers you need to tell them WHEN what they are doing is increasing hook slow down, but then that's new information too, what if they know X of the cases where they are allowed to be hooked aren't true, and only 1 could be, so now suddenly the killer is alerted to the presence of a close by survivor or something. None of this even mentions the fact that the solution DOESN'T EVEN STOP A TRUE TOXIC FACE CAMPER, unless survivors feel like "spend even longer on first hook then maybe escape in end game collapse if my team mates are altruistic and have BT" is better than "die on first hook"
I'm picking on the solution because, despite it being tried twice and removed for not working, it's a bad suggestion. All the survivor suggestions come at it from the realm of "make camping literally impossible or PUNISH THE TOXIC SCUM WHO DARE COME NEAR A HOOK SO HARD THEY WOULDN'T DARE". I'm sorry to say those solutions aren't going to work, you have to retain player agency, you can't make the system so convoluted no one(or especially new players) understands exactly what is happening around the hooked player. You HAVE to accept that camping will always be POSSIBLE, the solution to the problem is to build the game in such a way that it's not the best move often, and when it's NOT the best move that the killer A. knows it's not the best move and B. knows enough to try a better move.
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the problem isn't that it can't tell the different between a leave match button or disconnect/crash. It's the people can force close the application or pull their internet cord, or disable their lan connection etc... No game does this because the level of control the game software would have over your computer that point is ludicrous, HUGE security risks.
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I think it's pretty unfair to be paranoid about this one. a million games have reporting and auto ban systems that have basic sanity checks for false reporting. I don't think it's a big deal for them to go "we are adding a system that exists in tons of games and works fine".
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I think they kinda already do this through dailies and tomes, though less aggressively than you're suggesting. I don't mind extra blood points being tossed around, but i'd rather them just make less popular killers more appealing. Like no amount of BP is going to make me play trapper because he's both not my style AND frustratingly bad.
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@flawedspecies I think i have pitched my ideas in every single thread like this, i even made my own thread so i could just link it as opposed to retyping, and it's pretty rare i get any responses. and if you don'ot want people to get defensive you can't lead your posts by constantly calling killers skilless and toxic(even if you only mean/specify ones who camp). I guarentee most instances of camping or tunneling are not people cacklign about how bad of a time they are giving the survivoir.
The short version of my suggestion is, give the camped survivor BP based on how well the team does over all, buff kindred to give bp at similar levels to BBQ, and auto unlock BBQ and Kindred for all killers/survivoirs, and early game(first 20 account levels or whatever a reasonable number is) auto unlock the 4th perk slot but force BBQ/Kindred to stay in that slot.
i'll link my full pitch if anyone wants the more indepth stuff for it.
@tolore said:
So I'll start with the suggestion and then go into my reasoning why, and a little bit on the general discourse around this topic after.
Suggestion part 1: Rework BBQ and Chilli to be something completely different, make an exact copy of current BBQ and chilli and start with it unlocked on every killer.
Add a massive blood point gain in some way to kindred similar to BBQ and Chilli. also start every survivor with kindred unlocked
For the first 30 players levels(or some other reasonable value) force the 4th perk slot for killers to be BBQ and Chilli(even if they don't have the 4th perk slot unlocked yet), and do the same for survivors with new kindred.
Suggestion part 1 reasoning: Both of these perks are incredibly useful teaching tools for new players, and both help you with the information you need to know to counter camping, and teaching the killer how to not camp(and rewarding them heavily for it). Consider these training wheel perks for both sides, and by FORCING them to be used for a certain number of levels I think it will vassly lower the problem of camping at low levels. In addition, this nerfs no one, it gives two awesome QoL perks for both sides to use, and it helps solo players much more than SWF.
Suggestion part 2: Camping WILL still happen, that's unavoidable. General change to blood points/pipping for survivors. Survivor pips and BP are not calculated until the match is done(they can still leave once they are dead and go do another match with no penalty). Survivors are awarded BP and pips at the end based on how well the team did overall, so if you get camped to death but the other 3 people slam gens and get out, you get rewarded with BP and pips. Possible alternative, anyone hooked, with a killer near them, gets points for gens being done by other players(this is probably WAY easier to code)
Suggestion part 2 reasoning: A lot of the counter arguments to camping being bad are "it's a legit strategy" or "you can't remove player agency", which to be fair I totally agree with. Camping is not unfair to the survivor TEAM. It is WILDLY unfair to the survivor getting camped though. spending several minutes on hook and dying is not a fair punishment for getting downed once. This will at least reward the player getting camped for the bad experience, assuming the rest of the team does the proper counterplay to camping(gen slamming). It will also hopefully make the hooked survivor feel more like they are sacrificing their life for the team, than getting screwed.
General discourse: There's a lot of stuff from both sides that I don't like. From killers, i feel like a lot of people have very little empathy for the person being camped. Yes player agency is important, yes it's not an unfair tactic for the enemy TEAM, but it sucks a LOT for the individual. I guarantee there are new players out there who got camped early and quit the game, it's an awful experience, and if it was my first impression of the game i'd likely have quit also. For the survivors, yes getting camped sucks, a vast majority of times though you getting camped isn't a cackling villain licking your survivor tears. Sometimes you really don't know where to find other people(especially when new or have terrible perks), and you say "well if i stay here someone will come to rescue them and I can chase", or you feel so pressured the camp seems like the only way to get a kill. Or you hooked someone next to regressing gens and it's legitimately a smart idea to camp. There is no way to remove camping as a tactic without severely nerfing killers overall, and you can't ban/punish it without hitting new players who don't know what else to do.
Even if this doesn't go far enough for some people I hope most would agree this would make the camping situation BETTER.
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@flawedspecies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2252131#Comment_2252131
How do 3 people both escape and die at the same time?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2252128#Comment_2252128
You just constantly talked about gen rush and claimed the old mori's weren't toxic. I've literally seen the game ended in under a minute with the old moris. You can't even understand why camping is toxic. You're not saying it's toxic but I think it's ok. You're literally saying ruining someone's ability to play a game is somehow not toxic. You think taking away the ability for 1 person to even play the game is OK because you want to win at all costs. This is a game. It should be about fun. There is nothing on the line.
Please define gen rush and tell me why it's so toxic and unstoppable.
I can't claim to know what another person thinks, but i do think th ere are certain scenarios where gen rushing is largely how you describe face camping. Skillless, and unstoppable without perks(or even with sometimes). The big one i run into is, sometimes all 4 survivors just spawn in different corners of the map next to gens, and if I find one person, hit them twice, and hook them in 80 seconds I will lose 3 gens, and they will be spread out in such a way that it's going to be hard to get a clustered 3 gen. All this took was the rng placing all the survivors int he right spots, and for 3 of them to hold m1 and have one of them not be terrible in a chase. This puts the killer in a rediculously bad position without the survivors having to do anythiing hard or interesting, and even if the 1 survivor that got caught wasn't doing well. finding, downing, and hooking a survivor in a minute - a minute and a half is pretty good(or pretty bad for the survivor that got caught depending on you want to look at it).
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@flawedspecies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2252111#Comment_2252111
All the killer mains here are telling me that the solution is to just do 5 gens while they facecamp and the other 3 will escape. But then they also tell me that this is a realistic strategy for the killer's goal of kill everyone. Which one is it?
That's the whole point of what a lot of us have been saying. It's context sensitive, and that's why you can't just "remove the problem". There is a counter to camping(from the survivor team, not the individuals). Recognizing that you're in the situation and doing that counter is not 100% of the time though. Sometimes camping is the right call, sometimes camping is going to give the enemy team 3 free escapes, sometimes if you try to camp you'll lose 3 gens, and then someone with BT will come up and get them off the hook before they die/even get to the second level. Sometimes you hook someone in a great position and it's easy to defend and do something else. It's a complex problem and solutions like "just make the timer not go down" or "teleport hooked people across the map to places the killer isn't aware of" or whatever else survivor mains come up with as solutions don't work.
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@flawedspecies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251888#Comment_2251888
How is it not an objective evil? The person on hook has the ability to play and enjoy the game taken away and their only outplay is to "never get caught?"
It's an anti-fun mechanic. I don't care about it's effect on my ability to win, I play the game to have fun. And if I happen to get caught early that shouldn't be a forfeiture of my ability to enjoy the game. Even if it's not me that gets camped, I get pissed off because they took away someone else's enjoyment of the game. Who wants to wait in 10 min queues to have a minute of game time before getting camped to death? How is that not objectively evil to take away the ability to play the game. It's not about skill, it's not about getting outplayed. They just sit there and ruin people's experience. And for the other 3 people not hooked, they aren't having fun either. They get t hold down M1 for a while then leave. That's not any fun either.
It's like people who cheat and they justify it because they "win." They didn't do anything, how is that even satisfying?
It's not objectively evil because the game doesn't teach people not to do it, and it's not even always strategically always wrong too do it. ESPECIALLY for new players, you come in and you have all your garbagy starting killer perks, and you hook someone. Are you evil for sticking around? Why wouldn't you, you don't know the maps super well yet, you don't have BBQ telling you where people far away are, the only real information you have is I have on 1/4 survivors here, and 1/4 survivors should come to save them, my odds of finding someone or getting a kill is way higher by sticking around than wandering around the map.
What if I've got two tight gens that are degrading, and i have someone hooked near them, am i OBJECTIVELY EVIL if i protect htose two gens and a hooked person?
What if I hook someone and I see no one when i make the hook so i know people are around, should I leave to nowhere or should i stay close to hook to find the other survivors? what if they don't show their faces?
I don't disagree that there are some amount of people who take perverse joy out of just sitting on one person and giving them a bad game. Unfortunately there are no solutions that make it impossible for that to happen without wrecking a whole bunch of other much more valid playstyles and reasons to be near a hook. You have to live in this game with the fact that there's some amount of player crappiness you won't be able to get rid of completely, that will mitigate the problem in the healthiest way possible.
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@flawedspecies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251819#Comment_2251819
Please tell me what survivors can do that is literally almost impossible to overcome without perks. Don't try to tell me "gen rushing." You can chase people off gens, can't chase a camper off the hook. This doesn't change just because you can't be in 4 places at once. Some killers are better at it than others. Even weaker killers like the trapper have the option of using all his resources to protect a 3-gen.
survivors can overcome camping without perks, by just doing a bunch of gens while the killer camps. It sucks for the person on the hook(which again is a problem i agree). But when your talking actual game balance you have to remember it's 4 v 1. a single survivor is not supposed to be able to counter the things a killer wants to do. a survivor TEAM is supposed to be able to counter things killers want to do. You are going to be more limited on what you can do without perks on survivor because your TEAM gets 4 times as many perks as a killer. Like I've said before, I agree face camping a hook is a problem that needs to be fixed, but so many survivors are so pissed off about they come in with unworkable solution and pepper those suggestions and any discourse around them with talk about how awful and skilless every killer is, and then wonder why killers don't seem to agree with you.
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@flawedspecies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251613#Comment_2251613
This never works unless it's a 4 man SWF. Each phase is 1 minute and solo gens take 80s, so best case they each finish one gen and get less than half on a second gen. But what happens if it's not a SWF or the hooked person doesn't have Kindred? People are going to waste tons of time finding out that the killer is facecamping. Again, "best case" they realize it and go back to gens. However, most people are too altruistic and/or see it as a challenge. I have almost 1k hours played and in solo queue I'm not sure I've ever seen everyone ignore the hook in a facecamp situation, but people keep acting like this is a realistic solution.
one of my pitches for a resolution to this problem is to give kindred BBQ and Chili levels of bonus blood points to heavily incentivize at least one survivor to run it. I don't think that's enough by itself but i think it'd be a big help
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@RealKamakaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251790#Comment_2251790
Yes except the game is designed so that you get 3 chances on hook isn't it? If you don't patrol generators or use anti-gen-rush perks then that is on you, you were outplayed. Looping the killer for 15 minutes then getting knocked when every pallet on the map is gone or when your team mate gets in your way only to die on your first hook is not being outplayed your supposed to get 3 chances on hook unless everyone else is dead.
I mean no, it's not designed for that, as the people who designed it have said tunelling and camping are fine, and the games base rules have a way for you to die in one hook. Like it's okay to not like camping(I don't like it either and have pitched many ideas for discouraging/fixing it). But you have to stop pretending it's some objective evil and anyone who does it under any circumstance is a skilless hack torturing the poor innocent survivors.
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@RealKamakaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251723#Comment_2251723
Well I mean if your good at playing killer then you shouldn't get gen rushed. Also doing generators is something survivors actually have to do to win the game sitting in front of a hook ruining one person's entire game just because they're good is not something you have to do it's something you choose to do because your bad at the game and put about as much skill into it as I do eating my breakfast. If your getting gen-rushed by sweaty survivors that's not their fault that's matchmaking's fault they're only trying to have fun playing the game just like you, so you shouldn't go out of your way to ruin their game because your salty.
I think that's a little bit of an unfair response, literally the best killers in the game get gen rushed sometimes. If the survivors get spawned on opposite sides of the map and just all jump on gens it's REALLY hard to be able to do much about it if they are even half decent at looping. Also think it says a lot about the bias in your mindset when you phrase the issue as "survivor getting camped FOR being good" and the camper automatically being bad at the game. Nor is every killer who "camps" purposely going out to ruin anyone's game.
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okay @Marik13 i know you were joking but
" Or better yet, how about for every teabag the survivors do at exit gates, killers get an automatic Blood Warden effect where if a survivor is hit they can't exit and they now need to run out and lose the killer again?"
sounds hilarious, make that an unseeable offering or something so they can't know it's a rule.
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I feel like it's pretty unfair to take a perk that discourages camping for blood points, and gives you information on players far away from the hook and say it "encourages camping". It discourages camping in 90% of all scenarios, and in a very small minority of situations it let's the killer know that they are in a situation where camping is "correct". Also even in that minuity of situation only encourages camping if you assume the killer who just hooked WOULDN'T have camped without BBQ.
Baiscally, I would bet anything that BBQ discourages camping FAR FAR more of the time than it promotes it.
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@Marik13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251088#Comment_2251088
Yeah that's true. Also I forgot, until an actual MMR is put in to help better determine ranks yeah this might be a bit hard to do, you might be right. Still I think they can find a way to do something like this, pending that it doesn't involve a complete overhaul of the system (although I think it does need to be overhauled anyway, cus the current system is garbo).
Yeah, they definitely can and IMO should figure something out for that, I think it'd be a lot better for players in general.
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Yeah i used to be on the "gen times are too fast" boat, b ut after talking about it with some friends and seeing what high tier players had to say about it. I think the problem is more "most killers can't deal with 4 survivors hanging out on complete opposite sides of the map doing gens" and "sometimes the game spawns survivors in that ideal scenario".
At the very least, the problem IMO is in the early game, gens don't feel to fast to me when t here's only 3 left, especially if they are close to eachother. When gens FEEL fast it's always i n the early game where they can feel ABSURD. I have had some of the best TimeToFindFirstSurvivor followed by the best chase of my life and STILL lose 3 gens right before/after the hook. And when that happens it's very clear that survivor skill had nothing to do with it, The one i found/chased did poorly, and everyone else just spawned within a few seconds of a different gen and held M1. It's a hard problem to fix I think, but it's one of the things that cause me to have the least amount of fun in the game. I'm fine with body blocks, and flashy saves, but there's nothing more dishearetning than being like "Man I did awesome downing the first survivor this quick" *2-3 gens pop*.
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yeah, i think the bigger problem is actually possibly a technical one, I obviously don't know their infrastructure/code base, but it might be hard/error prone to have a state where players are graded as a team for pips/blood points, but can leave the match after they die. It would mean delayed pips/BP gain, but the survivor can start another match. you could obviously give them their solo BP and at least let them know if they safety pipped as soon as they die, but it might be hard to do the whole team graded thing because dead survivors don't have to stick around.
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@Marik13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2250978#Comment_2250978
I've actually seen other people before suggest to either add or rework some perks to work more like Make Your Choice and Hex: Devour Hope, where the killer has these really good perks that activate when they are a certain distance away from hooks. That might help counter balance some camping tactics by incentiving the killer to go away and hunt more people (or at least camp at a distance for some). Camping will never go away in this game. It's an actual strategy that survivors need to work around and is actually pretty easy to beat if you're not overly altruistic. I mean sucks for the person who gets camped, but thems the breaks. It happens to everyone at some point in literally any game that has a PVP element to it.
You want to know what real true frustrating camping is like? Go look at World of Warcraft back in the day, where if you were flagged up for PVP or are in a PVP server, you'd have either big highly geared groups or just rogues come and jump you, murder you, then go back to stealth and stay on top of your body ready to kill you again the second you respawned. Sometimes some groups, just to be real dicks would literally put down a campfire on top of your corpse, just to rub it in your face. Blizzard tried to combat this by making it so that if you died to a player in PVP that you'd respawn with a debuff that makes it so that you were worth no honor points for a certain amount of time after getting killed. It didn't matter. You'd still get camped just cus some people had nothing better to do. Camping is a thing. Whether it's for an actual legit strategy, or just cus someone wants to be a dick. Unfortunately there's really nothing you can do about in these games that wouldn't break them. It sucks, I know but you just gotta tough it out and deal with it as best as you can.
yeah totally agreed on basically all points. No solutions that hard nerf/remove the ability to camp seem good/not abusable to me, so the right way to go is incentives. Which means you need to give as much possible gain for not hooking as possible, and enough knowledge to want to try and get that gain.
I also think giving the person being camped some blood points based on how well their team does overall will help some. I actuially think in general if one person dies but the rest of their team does great they should get some partial lcredit for at LEAST everything that happened while they were chased, if not a post game "number of surviving players" bonus sent to all survivors who were in teh game and didn't DC.
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@Mooks said:
BBQ actually encourages camping. I have seen many killers that claim they stayed at the hook when they didn’t see the auras of all remaining survs..
I would largely argue that camping is not camping just because they stay near the hook and they don't know where anyone else is. It's only camping if they see other survivors and choose not to chase them. if they stay near hook IMO first survivor there should try to bait them away. It seems totally fair to me to try and force the scenario of "1 on hook, 1 on chase, and 1 going for unhook", and presumably if any of these BBQ players you're talking about were willing to leave the hook if they saw someone's aura, they'd probably leave if they saw someone's physical body.