newduls
newduls
About
- Username
- newduls
- Joined
- Visits
- 98
- Last Active
Comments
-
@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/853768#Comment_853768
Your math is missing several crucial elements.
-If a survivor is in a chase, they can't work on generators until they lose the killer.
-Every time a survivor gets hooked, that survivor can no longer work on generators or assist other survivors until another survivor comes to unhook them, wasting precious time for both survivors.
-Once a survivor is put on the hook, the killer is free to find another survivor to chase while other survivors are going for unhooks.
-If a survivor is put on their last hook, then they are dead and can no longer work on generators or go for unhooks.
-The survivors also have to waste additional time opening the exit gates before they can escape.
So, if we assume that the killer is always chasing one survivor at any given time, then that leaves only three survivors to work on all of the generators. Instead of taking 108 seconds to complete all of the generators, the survivors will now need around 140 seconds to complete all the generators, at the bare minimum (80 seconds to complete the first 3 generators, ~45 seconds to complete the fourth generator with two survivors working on it, and ~15 seconds for the last generator to be completed, if the third survivor repairs it on his own for the first 45 seconds, then the others join him after finishing the fourth generator). Then the survivors need to waste 20 seconds getting the Exit Gates open. So the killer has 144 seconds to kill all the survivors, and it will take 160 seconds before the survivors get the exit gates open.
If we add hooks to the equation, then things become even more favorable for the killer. Every time the killer gets a hook, a survivor needs to stop working on the generators to go unhook them. If a survivor is hooked 3 times, then they're permanently removed from the game and can no longer work on generators.
If we look at your equation and assume that the killer gets hooks as fast as technically possible (6 seconds to get 2 hits, 3 seconds to pickup, 3 seconds to hook), it quickly becomes apparent that the survivors won't be able to keep up. Every successful hook forces the hooked survivor to waste at least 6 seconds of their own time, and forces a different survivor to waste 3 seconds unhooking them. If we assume that the killer hooks every survivor in order and doesn't get any early kills, then the survivors will start dying, one by one, after the 9th hook, which will occur after 108 seconds if we just go by your math.
You can calculate all the details if you want, but I think my point still stands; the numbers only favor the Survivors if the Killer idles all game and doesn't chase or hook any of them.
my numbers were a base line, its for the purposes of providing a frame of reference.
Here is another example that provides a demonstration of the power role the survivors enjoy
the desired avg chase time is ~30 secs. This can be easily understood by the BL timers and the impact BL has on the game.
If all 4 survivors execute 30 sec chases that result in hooks. Assuming survivors only focus on gens. The survivors will have accomplished 90% of their goal, while the killer only 33%.
These are all worse case scenarios of course, but I'm only intending to demonstrate the nature of the roles in their current implementation when played by those of maximum skill.
In its most basic for the survivor is the power role, as such mistakes made by the survivor also have greater impact on the outcome of the game, which is why BHVR has provided so many tools for survivors to circumvent those mistakes.
Power role does not mean you dominate without effort or its the "easy" role. Playing survivor to perfection requires more skill then playing killer. But a perfect survivor team will always beat a perfect killer.
-
@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/853768#Comment_853768
Your math is missing several crucial elements.
-If a survivor is in a chase, they can't work on generators until they lose the killer.
-Every time a survivor gets hooked, that survivor can no longer work on generators or assist other survivors until another survivor comes to unhook them, wasting precious time for both survivors.
-Once a survivor is put on the hook, the killer is free to find another survivor to chase while other survivors are going for unhooks.
-If a survivor is put on their last hook, then they are dead and can no longer work on generators or go for unhooks.
-The survivors also have to waste additional time opening the exit gates before they can escape.
So, if we assume that the killer is always chasing one survivor at any given time, then that leaves only three survivors to work on all of the generators. Instead of taking 108 seconds to complete all of the generators, the survivors will now need around 140 seconds to complete all the generators, at the bare minimum (80 seconds to complete the first 3 generators, ~45 seconds to complete the fourth generator with two survivors working on it, and ~15 seconds for the last generator to be completed, if the third survivor repairs it on his own for the first 45 seconds, then the others join him after finishing the fourth generator). Then the survivors need to waste 20 seconds getting the Exit Gates open. So the killer has 144 seconds to kill all the survivors, and it will take 160 seconds before the survivors get the exit gates open.
If we add hooks to the equation, then things become even more favorable for the killer. Every time the killer gets a hook, a survivor needs to stop working on the generators to go unhook them. If a survivor is hooked 3 times, then they're permanently removed from the game and can no longer work on generators.
If we look at your equation and assume that the killer gets hooks as fast as technically possible (6 seconds to get 2 hits, 3 seconds to pickup, 3 seconds to hook), it quickly becomes apparent that the survivors won't be able to keep up. Every successful hook forces the hooked survivor to waste at least 6 seconds of their own time, and forces a different survivor to waste 3 seconds unhooking them. If we assume that the killer hooks every survivor in order and doesn't get any early kills, then the survivors will start dying, one by one, after the 9th hook, which will occur after 108 seconds if we just go by your math.
You can calculate all the details if you want, but I think my point still stands; the numbers only favor the Survivors if the Killer idles all game and doesn't chase or hook any of them.
My math is a massive simplification only used to demonstrate a base line which fundamentally favors the survivors. I stated that from the start of my post.
If you want to use real numbers based on the desired targets of bhvr. We can do that, and those will also continue to show that survivors are the power role or if there not its bhvrs intention to keep them or move them there.
Just one example, the stated desired avg chase time for a killer is ~30 secs. A chase lasting 30 secs represents the ability for the remaining 3 survivors to accomplish 22.5 % of their goals.
If all 4 survivors accomplish a 30 sec chase, that represents (from 4 total chases) 90% of the survivors goals. Assuming each chase ends in a hook, comparatively it represents on 33% of the killers goals.
We know that the desired avg chase time is around 30~ because of when and how much BL kicks in and what factors contribute to BL. BL1 kicks in at 15 secs and adds .2 m/s to the killers movement speed. Not really enough to prevent most simple loops, but enough to force pallet drop in exchange for a hit. That means on average for a single hit bhvr has accommodate a scenario which generally favors survivors in the circumstance in which the survivor makes no mistake providing them the opportunity to escape to the next pallet and force at least another 15 sec game till BL1. So 2 BL1s to secure a down isn't outside of bhvrs expectation for killer performance.
BHVR has also shown that they WANT killers to play fair. They discourage hook camping and tunneling. They do this because it isn't fun for the survivors, but also, ultimately it isn't fun for the killer and killers who hook camp or tunnel will still lose when they facing the single survivor who can fully take advantage of the survivors power position.
BHVR wants survivors to be the power role. Most people make the mistaking of thinking it would be better for the game if he were, it wouldn't be.
Others simple don't understand the game well enough to recognize the killer isn't the power role. And generally view the labeling of survivors as the power role as some kind of derogatory attack on survivors or an attempt to influence the devs to "nerf" survivors and "buff" killers.
The only thing bhvr should do to improve the fun for killers is reduce the importance of survival for the survivors so that when they execute in fullness the power they have, they don't do so at the expense of the killers ability to feel like he is the power role. No actual changes to the game balance are necessary to accomplish this in most cases. There are a couple of options for fixing it. One involves a change to survivor emblems and scoring. 1 involves a change to killer scoring and emblems.
-
@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/853611#Comment_853611
Yeah, survivors are more of a chill role, because they spend a lot of their time working on generators. If you want the objective to force survivors to take a more active role, then go play Deathgarden. But saying that they're not punished as hard for making mistakes is a pretty ridiculous notion. The difference between taking a hit and not taking a hit is huge. The difference between getting downed and escaping a chase will very often mean the difference between victory and defeat. And if you make the wrong decisions about what to do and where to go, it can very often lead to death.
I really haven't seen anything to convince me that the survivors are truly the "power role". I mostly just see a bunch of buzzwords being thrown around by killer mains after they get outplayed by survivors who are ranked much higher than them. If anything, you should be blaming the matchmaking and ranking system for that. Just look at high-ranking killer mains like Otzdarva. He mains a mid-tier killer, the Trapper, and yet he can often get 4Ks against some of the most experienced survivors around, while playing with a stupid meme build.
Survivors are the "power" role because all other things being equal the survivors control the pace of the game. Due an disproportionate distribution of objective requirements and the fact that the survivors objectives are the PvE component of the game and effectively fixed.
1 killer must complete 12 hooks to end the game. Hit time is 3 secs. 2 hits. Currently pickup time I believe is 3 secs. Hook time ~3 secs as well. So killer to complete all his objectives is 12 x 12. 144 secs
4 survivors must complete 5 generators to end the game. One survivor can complete 1 generator in working solo in 80 secs (without skill checks). If you measure it, again at excluding all other variables, lets say 4 survivors on 4 gens and all 4 on the 5th that puts total time to complete all generators a 108 secs. (4 on 1 takes 28 secs), and 20 secs to open a gate.
so you're comparing 144 to 128. For the killer to be on "equal" ground his time to complete his objectives should be 1/4 the time of the survivors if you want to position him as a Power role that requires the entire opposing team be equal to him, or 1/3 or 1/2 or 1 if you want to position him as varying degrees of power up to equal to a single survivor.
More important though, then the time to complete objectives as far as defining the "power" role, it is rather who controls the PvE component of the game.
In a true competitive pvp game their is no power role, instead you 100% compete with each other.
DBD is a PvPvE game. In which killers protect their env from survivors. If the killer does nothing the survivors can still complete the game. If the survivors do nothing to which I include interacting with the killer, an absurd scenario I know, the game would never end, as the killer has no way of ending the game without interacting with the survivors. This is what defines a power role in dbd.
-
@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/853611#Comment_853611
Yeah, survivors are more of a chill role, because they spend a lot of their time working on generators. If you want the objective to force survivors to take a more active role, then go play Deathgarden. But saying that they're not punished as hard for making mistakes is a pretty ridiculous notion. The difference between taking a hit and not taking a hit is huge. The difference between getting downed and escaping a chase will very often mean the difference between victory and defeat. And if you make the wrong decisions about what to do and where to go, it can very often lead to death.
I really haven't seen anything to convince me that the survivors are truly the "power role". I mostly just see a bunch of buzzwords being thrown around by killer mains after they get outplayed by survivors who are ranked much higher than them. If anything, you should be blaming the matchmaking and ranking system for that. Just look at high-ranking killer mains like Otzdarva. He mains a mid-tier killer, the Trapper, and yet he can often get 4Ks against some of the most experienced survivors around, while playing with a stupid meme build.
Survivors are the "power" role because all other things being equal the survivors control the pace of the game. Due an disproportionate distribution of objective requirements and the fact that the survivors objectives are the PvE component of the game and effectively fixed.
1 killer must complete 12 hooks to end the game. Hit time is 3 secs. 2 hits. Currently pickup time I believe is 3 secs. Hook time ~3 secs as well. So killer to complete all his objectives is 12 x 12. 144 secs
4 survivors must complete 5 generators to end the game. One survivor can complete 1 generator in working solo in 80 secs (without skill checks). If you measure it, again at excluding all other variables, lets say 4 survivors on 4 gens and all 4 on the 5th that puts total time to complete all generators a 108 secs. (4 on 1 takes 28 secs), and 20 secs to open a gate.
so you're comparing 144 to 128. For the killer to be on "equal" ground his time to complete his objectives should be 1/4 the time of the survivors if you want to position him as a Power role that requires the entire opposing team be equal to him, or 1/3 or 1/2 or 1 if you want to position him as varying degrees of power up to equal to a single survivor.
*edit
included gate time
Also, obviously this is a massive simplification. But fundamentally it demonstrates how the times are disproportionate. I'm not advocating or arguing the killer SHOULD be the power role, only demonstrating that fundamentally he is not.
-
@Peanits said:
I'd love to see something like that in the future and make it a regular thing. We would need to figure out what type of data you guys want to see, though. If we do it regularly, we couldn't give a ton of different stats each time (that would take way too much of the data team's time). It'd also be nice to narrow it down to a few categories that would appear every time so you can compare one month to the last.
Game duration broken down by rank groups and killer. I'd like to see the average, the min and the max.
Then I'd like to see the data of survival rate based on game duration groups, by rank group. So forexample, if the game last 3 to 5 mins what is the % of 1,2,3,4 survivals at rank 20 to 16, 15-10, 9 to 5 and 4 to 1. If the game last 5 to 8 mins, 9 to 12 mins, 12 mins+.
I'd like to see the data of BP average by game duration (survivors vs killers). Avg survivor and killer bp for games 3 to 5, 5 to 8, 9 to 12, 12+. Group break down would be interesting to of course.
I'd like to the seem the emblem rates by game duration(survivors and killers). Same game break downs as previously used.
average/min/max completion time for 1st gen vs average/min/max 1st down time.
average/min/max # of complete gens at time of avg/min/max 1st hook
IMO, the above data points would be farm more interesting and valuable then general survival rates.
-
@DerFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/848374#Comment_848374
You didnt get my point right. It has nothing to do with finding another target or the rescuer.
If i get unhooked with DS, then i just do a center gen or a gen thats nearly done even if the killer chases next to me. if he tries to chase me, i just get in a locker. if as you said, he choses to grab me and i DS him, i can get to the next loop without any problems (5 seconds is very long) and just save drop the pallets. so there are 3 other survivors pushing the last gens for my adrenalin and i am out.
So what i wanted to point out is that DS gives you a free ticket to do a gen anywhere and break any 3 gen strat. It also brings you to the not heal but push gen descision after an unhook.
i also play killer 50% of my time and i have to deal with the same ######### that i do as survivor. DS should disappear the moment you touch a gen. i have no problem if DS would be up for every surv after every unhook as long as they lose it the moment they do a gen or totem. all you should be allowed to do is healing.
I'd be good with that too.
The people saying DS in its current state is okay don't understand how real high rank survivors use it. It isn't an anti tunneling perk. It's a "F U I do what I want" perk.
-
DS can, and often does alter the ENTIRE flow of the game. The locker trick is imo, the worst way its used and the most absurd. Delay the DS skill check on locker grabs to give the killer time to drop the survivor and I think it would be fine.
-
surge is another in a long line of
"We want to pretend to slow the game down but not really" perks.
-
no killer has snowball without survivor mistakes
-
@Lufanati said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/840563#Comment_840563
Crazy how this concept is so difficult to understand for some people
except thats bs. You an derank with a 2k+ especailly at r1 , because it isn't actually balanced around kills. Namely the gatekeeper emblem will constanly ######### you over because survivors control the speed of the generator completion. EVEN if you play 100% gen defense you can't stop gens from being completed and you absoluteley won't win agains good survivors.
I'm not saying its bad game design or wrong. I'm just saying its bs to claim the current game play is balanced.
Personally I don't think it needs to be. Survivor eblems just need to be changed.
-
@Mtom912 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/840547#Comment_840547
I don’t understand why you need to make games slower
The one time stats were released survival rates were all around 50%, rank 1 being 43%
devs have also stated that currently basically every single killer, at every rank, on every platform has a kill rate above 50%
why should games be made slower
games need to be slower overall, if you don't think this its because you don't play in high ranks.
I mean this from both survivor low ranks where 5 min games are the result of terrible survivors or high ranks where 5 min games are results of super survivors.
5 min games are boring for both sides. Survivors because they are being camped tunnelled and have no experience. Killers because the gen rush.
-
@Jejune said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/840895#Comment_840895
The problem is with super short games with barely any hooks. Which leads to camping last hook and it doesnt make it for a "good" game. I prefer 3 vs 1 with 1 gen remaining than 0 gens remaining with 4 vs 1.
I was asking peanits.
Your idea isn't viable. I'd say its rather foolish. There are more reasonable solutions.
But he responded without acknowledging that there is in fact a problem with the pace of the game, so I was curios as to weather or not he does acknowledge that or if he believe the 5<mins games are the killers fault.
-
@Peanits said:
I'd be pretty strongly against this. As a killer, I'd be getting a pity kill no matter how poorly I'm doing. As a survivor, we'd be getting punished for doing well.
To throw a random scenario out there, what if you have an AFK killer? Someone's gotta' sacrifice themselves to someone who's literally not even playing the game just so the other three can move on. I wouldn't volunteer for that, I did nothing to deserve a loss, and I highly doubt the strangers you meet on the internet would jump at that opportunity either.
do you think the current pace of the game is right? that its possible for survivors to end the game in less then 5 mins? Regardless of what the killer does?
-
@Peanits said:
I'd be pretty strongly against this. As a killer, I'd be getting a pity kill no matter how poorly I'm doing. As a survivor, we'd be getting punished for doing well.
To throw a random scenario out there, what if you have an AFK killer? Someone's gotta' sacrifice themselves to someone who's literally not even playing the game just so the other three can move on. I wouldn't volunteer for that, I did nothing to deserve a loss, and I highly doubt the strangers you meet on the internet would jump at that opportunity either.
do you think the current pace of the game is right? that its possible for survivors to end the game in sub 5 mins?
-
make it so if he hits someone in bt he heals them.
-
I doubt its the only stat they look at, or even the primary stat. Its just the stat they've shared and that the community has latched on to.
-
@FireHazard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/834395#Comment_834395
Yes but the point is that the threat of being camped in a basement is... quite boring tbh. Idk anyone that enjoys sitting in a basement or on a hook while knowing the Killer is right around the corner just looking at you or listening at the hook.
That's kind of why the perk isn't liked... it promotes a playstyle that a lot of people don't like. But, if we add those Killers specific changes than that would actually be pretty cool... and would make it a lot more practical! Rather than just camping in a corner waiting for noise for generator progress or unhooking.
for sure, its the easy way to use it, which is why its used that way. With changes that promoted using it for surprising people at generators and removing its hook camping potential I believe it would be an excellent perk at all levels. Once survivors realize you have it they'd also waste time waiting at the generator to make sure you didn't insidious them.
-
@Captain_Spaulding said:
I escape roughly 75% of the time because I play for myself. Meaning I get gens done, I don't do unnecessary saves, I'll lead killer to other people. I don't care. I get myself out. People try to be too altruistic as a solo and that's why you all die.
love it when solos play like this, the end game chats are hilarious.
IMO this is what dbd was always supposed to be about. A 1v1v1v1v1. Like Survivor on tv. Survivors screwing each other over to save themselves.
-
kill average shouldn't even be a statistic that anyone cares about. It isn't reflective at ALL of what makes the game fun and what makes a good game.
BP earned/Emblems earned and match duration are far more important stats.
-
btw, @FireHazard I like the idea of perks that modify bloodlust. Though I don't know if it needs to be insidious. But in general more perks that modifyied the killers speed would be great.
Anything that increase the speed of the killer really impacts survivors ability to loop successfully because looping depends so much on learning how long it takes for a killer to catch up.
So something that reduced the time it takes to get into bloodlust.
Something that made it so blood lust lasts after you break a pallet.
Something that made it so you enter bloodlust when you go through a window.
Something that made it so you enter bloodlust when you break a pallet.
Etc. I think would all be very good additions.
-
using insidious the camp hooked survivors is only the most obvious way to use it. Certainly not the most effective.
Walk past a gen that is being worked on but has no one on it and stop after you los it, but not too far away. Then wait till you hear the sound of it being worked on.
IMO, the need to change it so that once standing still the heart beat recedes to 0 over the course of 2 secs, as if you were walking away. Additionally it should hide all sounds of breathing, red stain(I believe it does that already), and any other sounds as long as you don't move. Personally, though I'm sure people would complain about it. I'd give it a 2 sec 5/10/15% speed boost coming out of it.
You should also be able to trigger powers from it with out making sounds.
Pig should be able to mask here roar from it.
Nurse should be able to charge her tp from it.
Freddy should be able to initiate teleports from it. Fake out blood on the gen you just past to scare the survivors off and hit them when they move toward you.
Huntress should be able to charge hatchets without breaking it.
Billy and leather face should have their chainsaw masked while standing still and charging it.
wraith should have his bell silenced.
clown charge bottles silently.
trapper set traps silently.
hag set traps silently.
In order to PREVENT hook camping I'd actually make it so insidious doesn't work at all within 20M of a hooked survivor.
IMO, this would make insidious a very good perk, that encourages "fright" play and not hook camping.
-
@Xerge said:
In my opinion his slowdown add ons make the game really tedious. I understand you could see them as a solution to the genrush problem, but like a lot of players have already said; it's boring to press m1 and do skillchecks for more than 2 minutes. That's why we need a secondary objective.
In the meantime I guess he is fine, just boring to go against when he is running slowdown add ons and on top of that thana and sloppy butcher.
there are already secondary objectives.
Survivors don't do them because they are secondary adding more won't change the ability for survivors to simple do the primary objective and escape.
What i suppose you really mean is more complex primary objectives then sitting on a generator hitting skill checks.
But ultimately what could you add that would be more complex? do you want it to be a combination of buttons you press besides holding M1?
Do you want to have to search for parts before you can start repairs? How is that more fun? now you are forced to wander around as if ruin is active until you find a part so you can press M1 until the gen is done.
Survivors actively have the power to extend the game and the vast majority choose not to, I don't think there are any secondary objects that would change that. Additionally, I believe if they made the primary objectives more complex or if they added more primary objectives survivors would complain.
-
again, it hasn't made legion unplayable, nor is their power worthless. There is just only 1 way to play them right now, but it does work. Are their counters to it? yes all killers are counterable. BHVR has shown this is their desire, that is why they nerfed nurse.
Its apparent they want all killers to have a hard counter play. This isn't a bad design, its not a competitive design, but it isn't a competitive game.
-
@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831949#Comment_831949
What you described is purely bad design. Even if that is how legion is better now (even then being very bad) that's not what he was designed for. He was supposed to be a killer that rushes down survivor and is fast, the opposite that he is now.
So, basically, they are badly designed now and devs are still in VERY EARLY development to change them. This just proves my point.
3 or 4 kills with legion or you are out of red and purple ranks, or the survivors that you get are really bad and dont understand the killer.
Their power is so exploitable by survivors that i always pray to face a legion so i get a free win. Also it's not just power that counts when you are playing, this game is supposed to be fun and what you described is being unfun for survivors and imo legion is very unfun to play now.
it isn't bad design. Calling it bad design because you don't like it doesn't make it bad design. Legion was always intended to be a target switching killer. Killers exploited his first version by Moonwalking to drop the chase so that DW would kick in and they could down people super fast. Or by using franks mix tape to stay on 1 target and down them. Again, this was NEVER how legion was meant to be played. KI was meant to get killers to target EVERYONE, so they'd all be injured.
I consistently 3 and 4k with legion at R1 against R1. You just don't want to adapt to the play style that works for legion, instead you want to play the way old legion was played.
The legion we have now is perfectly playable at R1 using the playstyle I have described, liking it or not, or thinking its fun or not, doesn't change that its playable.
-
Legion is actually in a pretty good spot right now.
Play with ruin/thana/enduring/pgtw.
focus on gen defense and keeping everyone injured, you'll have 10 to 20 min games with consistent 3 and 4ks.
Survivors don't like to play against legion because when played right he doesn't stick to chases so they can't really loop him and waste time. You're constantly switching targets and you become very unpredictable, which puts the survivors in situations where they get caught out more often.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831041#Comment_831041
You have made good points, but none of this takes into account the fast paced nature of this game. Small numbers count. Mere seconds, or even micro seconds can make a world of difference in getting a hit, a down, or preventing a repair just in time.
Yes, this is true. But the pace of the game is only a result of the way survivors play. Slow down builds are a reaction to that. The numbers I've provided are MAXIMUM values, rarely/never attained AS a result of the pace of the game.
If the pace of the game were SLOWER, then the current values would actually be more reasonable. As long as the pace of the game is as fast as it is, perks like DL and Thana have a much smaller overall impact. Surge and overcharge even less so. Ruin is so impactful when survivors can't find it because it DOES slow the pace because survivors foolishly waste time looking for it, instead of just powering through the gens.
This is why slow down builds like ruin+thana+pgtw are so effective. Ruin, when it last extends the game long enough for thana and pgtw to have a decent impact. But if ruin goes down early, then thana is likely wasted, pgtw will depend on how quickly you get hooks. Which again... is GREATLY impacted by the PACE of the game.
it seems counter intuitive, because if you look at the numbers and then look at the fastest games possible it would seem like those numbers are a huge percentage increase. Take thana, 64 secs when the match is 4 mins is a 25% increase. But in those cases thana never takes effect.
Faster games mean the perks need bigger numbers to have a reasonable impact.
The problem is that the standard deviation in game times makes it so that if they bump the numbers too much then the impact to long games because unreasonable.
Which is why, before they adjust slow down builds they really need to adjust the core duration of the game so that it better matches the current perk values. Avg match time needs to be around 11 mins with a std deviation of +/- 2 mins. With 4 min games being possible, the current slow down perks are all pretty weak.
-
her changes just made her suffer the same as b tier killers. Success is far more dependent on the circumstances of the match then how good you are.
I can 4k with any killer at R1 against an all R1 team using no perks and no addons, but the circumstances for that to happen depend on both my play, survivors making mistakes and favorable RNG. I'd say that for all A tier and lower killers the distribution is 20%/40/40%, as far as the impact that these things have on the matches outcome.
Certain perk/addon combinations on certain killers make the above scenario more common.
Nurse was a killer who you could reliable play where the circumstances of the rng and the survivors making mistakes were not nearly as significant a portion of the equation. So pre nerf nurse was more like 60%/20%/20%.
Similarly current spirit is 60%/20%/20% (thats for a 4k, not necessarily a pip).
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/830927#Comment_830927
- There is a reason for it. It keeps the Obsession engaged in the match actually doing something. It’s built in botany knowledge. That’s it. Relax.
- You get DL stacks from HOOKS (other than the Obsession), not injuries. It doesn’t matter how many times they heal.
- It synergises very well with other slow down perks, especially Thana. It doesn’t matter that the Obsession has an altruism bonus, in order for that to matter injured survivors need to ensure they find the Obsession, or the Obsession be available to run in and aid. Each down and hook immediately results in a Thana & DL stack.
- And the above is just ONE example of how DL can synergise with other perks. I think you just need to work on your creativity.
Raw numbers none of the slow down perks are very favorable to killers.
16% on thana if you keep everyone injured the whole game, which of course never happens. But say you did. Thats only adds 12.8 secs to the repair time if 1 survivor is working the gen. A total of 64 secs for 5 generators.
While dying light stacked to 9 provides a 18% reduction. Which would of course never happen. 14.4 secs. A total of 72 secs for 5 generators.
Overcharge adds a 5% on top of the base 10% if survivors miss the skill checks. Its hard to judge how common an overcharge skill check miss really is. As a base line, lets just say you kick a gen at least EVERY time you hook someone and then double that since you're probably kicking gens beside that, lets say also for the sack of a "max" value for overcharge, survivors ALWAYS miss the skill check. 15% regression on 12 overcharge checks would represent 144 secs of repair time. Which is probably generous. In most red rank scenarios overcharge skill checks don't get missed.
Surge adds 6%, so 16%, to gens within 32 meters every 40 secs upon downing a survivor with your basic attack. Again, hard to judge what the max conditions are here. But lets say You knock everyone down 12 times, and your within 32 meters of at least 2 generators each time and you always do that 40 secs apart (that would be 480 secs btw or 8 mins, its common for games to last 5 to 7 mins). So we get 24 total surge effects which would amount to 307.2 secs. But those maximum conditions seem super unlikely to me, so lets just cut that number in half cause that seems way more reasonable. 153.6 secs.
Ruin is also hard to judge, let's assume 5 good skill checks on every generator (5*5 *12) 300 secs of time.
While PGTW regresses a gen 25%, which if its above 25% represents 20 secs of repair time. I pretty common scenario. So, if you manage to kick a gen with every pgtw you get and they are all over 25% that represents 240 secs of repair time.
Additionally PGTW has the ability with an alturistic scenario to bring a gen from near completion to stopped in a matter of a few hooks.
All effective slow down builds use PGTW, because its the only reliable and effective slow down perk. All slow down builds really should have it.
Ruin+ PGTW +Thana is probably the best combination for a slow down build. Because survivors start to gen rush when they are feeling pressured (so they stop healing).
Thana, DL , Surge and Overcharge all need overhauls in their raw numbers tbh.
DL should work the opposite of how it does. It shouldn't require hooks, but should start at 9 and lose 3 tokens every time you hook the obsession.
Surge should be map wide. Or the time limit removed and the other numbers tweaked, maybe 50M instead of 32.
Thana's base value for repair time on gens should be doubled, heal time left the same, OR it needs to be converted into a token system. Each time a survivor gets injured you get a token and each token is 5% up to 4 tokens. You lose all your tokens when someone dies.
Overcharge should be changed so that each time you kick a gen you get a token. When you have 3 tokens and kick a gen the next survivor who touches it it blows up without a skill check, no additional regression and the survivor suffers from hindered for 120 secs, and has some electrification effect.
Perks like these would make slow down builds realistic on all killers and allow killers to mix in more variety, since using ALL slow down perks would be unnecessary.
-
@SteelDragon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/830549#Comment_830549
then what about all the games at red ranks where you outplay the survivors so hard the game is under 5min and all 5 gens are up and 4ked but you get a black pip because you played so well you didn't hook anyone 3 times? what are you supposed to just stop playing for a while to let them recover so you can pip? or go for the full "im trying to kill survivors", end the game in under 5 min with a 4k and black/depip because of that.
yes, actually.
The problem isn't that the emblem system forces you to do this if you want to rank up.
The problem is it DOESN'T force survivors to do the same. So if you focus on playing for the pip, the survivors will escape and likely still pip.
-
@Go_Go_Roboto said:
2K/2Escape is ideal, I think, as a whole if the entire playerbase of skill levels was populated like it used to be. PC, most are higher ranks where piping starts to be an issue.
Side note: pretty sure that the people talking about it being difficult are the majority of PC/ People in purple and red ranks. It is very hard, unless you get at least a 3K, to pip.
no it isn't.
The metrics of k/e isn't useful for determining the quality of the game and experience.
a 4k in the first 3 mins is a horrible experience.
a 4 escape after 5 mins is a horrible experience.
average these and you get a 2k/2e and think all is well when actually all is not even close to well.
The metrics of interest should be pips/bps and game duration.
If you see a high number of pips and bp (survivor and killer) and long games, 12+ minutes, then I assure you that most of the players of that game likely had fun regardless of escapes and kills.
If you see a high number of survivor pips with short games and high BP for survivors, low bp and pips for killer, then the killers are having rough games and getting "bullied"
if you see a low killer pip and high killer bp with low survivor pips and scores with short games, then the killers are dominating the survivors.
-
@Aven_Fallen said:
Why do you WRITE some words SO BIG? This LOOKS stupid!!1
Anyway, I would not say that the 2:2-Balance should be seen for every Match. I would say that it should be a 2:2 overall.
So if you have 100 Matches vs Killer X, in total, 200 Survivors should survive, 200 should die. Overall this would be 2 survive, 2 escape, but this does mean that there will be games with 4Ks, 3Ks, 1Ks, 0Ks as well.
I disagree, I think fundamentally the average of deaths isn't indicative of the quality of any of those games.
Duration of games and BP scored (or emblems) would be far more valuable for determining the quality of the current balance. I suspect BHVR has these metrics, and I would hope are using them instead of the kill average to drive decisions. The kill ratio metric isn't granular enough to communicate any form of balance. They only provide us the kill average because its an easy metric to provide and its one of those things that most the forum warriors eat up and get side tracked on.
-
@vossler25 said:
I have an idea, BP is typically linked to performance even more than the emblems, switch to that as a guideline for now until they work out a system that actually ranks
BP was previously used. Then later they used a hidden emblem system.
Generally speaking both of these things led to poor games because it supported a killer behavior that wasn't generally fun.
The only problem with the current emblem system is that survivors survival emblem needs to be changed.
Instead of linking it to surviving the trial, they should change it to points for time survived while there is at least 1 gen left.
8:30 survived = bronze
9:30 survived = silver
10: 30 survived = gold
11:30 survived = iri
Change bp points for escape to 500, and add bp for each 30 secs survived at a rate of 40/30 secs. This would put you at 8000 if you survive 10 mins.
Watch the game change. No balance necessary.
-
I like the deep wounds changes.
Especially the the penalty to action speeds.
I think changing the window of scratch marks would be better then restoring them completely. Scratch marks should come back into play the MOMENT FF ends, not after the stun finishes.
@Quol said:
I think one of the best ways to buff Legion would be to increase his map pressure. Make it harder to see while in Feral Frenzy but if you dont hit anyone you recover it 2x faster, this way he can zoom around the map.
and this would be cool. Or make it so that FF timer is paused until you hit your first target or enter a chase. That way you could be like billy zooming around the map permanently.
-
@Volfawott said:
I mean the way it is now means that you could take a lot more advantage with how you plan when you're going to activate it
its easily circumvented by the 99%. Though you could always just open the gates, its still puts you at significant risk of wasting it.
it makes a good counter to 99% the gate because as the survivors you won't know if they have blood warden and if they do, of course you're all in bad shape going into the exit. As its very likely your whole team is there body blocking.
-
@FriendlyGuy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/103229/spirit-change
it's not about making nurse not viable anymore. The addons were the problem, they nerfed her basekit and made her addon dependant. Why? The CD mexhanic is clunky and unfun, people just think spirit will be made extremely clunky too.
this seems to be their general pattern though. They want all the killers base kit to be weak and instead add on dependent.
Such that, I suppose you choose a main and continuously spend all your points on that killer so you can have the ad-dons you NEED in order to compete with consistency in the red ranks.
-
@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827614#Comment_827614
i didnt say a 3k should be a pip tho.
a 3k should not equal a depip, since you killed majority of the survivors, which can never be considered a loss for the killer. a 4k literally means you killed every last survivor in the trial, no one got out with all the chances they have had, so you should win. you did all of your objective, there is no way for you to improve on that, you got 100%. this is a clear win and should be treated as such.
and if you got a 0k i highly doubt the emblems would be able to save you from a depip there. a 1k too will most certainly have you depip, though a 2k, the "perfect balance" as the devs like to call it, has a real chance of not having you depip if you did well.
0k = a very bad game for you. equally bad emblems --> pretty much a guaranteed depip
1k = a bad game for you. emblems might be okay tho --> most of the time a depip, can be a safepip too.
2k = the "perfectly balanced game". if you won or lost will be decided by the emblems. good gameplay allows you to stay, bad gameplay doesnt. in rare cases a win. (2k = you perfectly fit into this rank)
3k = a good game for you. you killed most of the survivors, this can not be called a loss anymore. with good gameplay this will allow you to rank up aswell --> safepip. with good gameplay also a pip.
4k = a merciless game. you killed everyone, there is nothing left you could do. --> a pip. if you played very well, maybe even a 2 pip. this can never be called anything less than a win. (4k = you dominated the survivors. you should definitely be leaving this rank)
however, sometimes there are very rare cases of killers doing very well, but then having mercy on the survivors / BP farming killers. those, who do not kill the survivors because they dont want to (not because they were not able to), should be able to stay at their current rank.
once upon a time the # of kills was how it was determined. It didn't work. It wasn't fun for survivors because the killers played the game "wrong". They played competitively and played to kill. So they changed it.
The on going war between survivors and killers is largely due to both sides misconception that you can win. You can't and don't win, at least not according to the game itself. You survive or die. Or you disappoint the entity or are a brutal, ruthless or merciless killer.
the implication that a 3 and 4ks are wins for the killer are all self imposed.
There are currently 2 problems with the system that cause the killers the pain they are currently in.
1) The killer emblems are too dependent on the way the survivors play, gatekeeper, malicious and chaser. Gatekeeper is the worst offender, since there is really nothing you can do to stop survivors from finishing their first gen in the first min to 30 secs of play.
The game is designed such that its super common by the 1st hook to have the survivors done with 2 gens. I could go into loads of detail on this but imo its a pretty obvious problem and has earned the name "gen rush". So even in games where the killer PLAYS the way that BHVR wants them to, they still can't really receive the "merciless" state unless the survivors cooperate.
Gatekeeper should be changed so the vast majority of the points for the emblem are tied to the games duration, instead of the # of gens remaining. Rather then 5 for each min that generators are unfinished it should be changed to 20. And unfinished generators at matches end should be worth 5 each. This way, if the match lasts for 9 mins with all gens uncompleted you'd get iri.
Malicious suffers less so, but survivors getting off your shoulder via wiggle or survivors healing, again, these are often 100% out of your control, as such they shouldn't be counted as penalties imo. Dc's current another huge hole in malicious. Since you lose the hook state points.
Chaser loss of points for being within 8 or 16 of a hooked survivor is just dumb. Top tier killers don't hook camp and punishing killers for being near the hook doesn't stop the ones that do. It just, again, creates situations where the killer, without any significant control will lose points without good reason. I find a survivor and end up getting looped within 16 meters of the hooked survivor. Not my fault and to suggest I should be forced to abandoned that just if I want the points is just dumb.The reality is this situation is actual fun for the survivors. Unhooking while the killer is near is a rush and dangerous. If the killer decides to change targets and tunnel they you've really messed up.
The killer currently is essential at the mercy of the survivors for the game to go long enough for him to be effective.
I'm not whining about it, so don't read it that way. Its just the factual way the game is currently designed based on the arbitrary determination of the what the developers consider good play by the killer.
2) The survivors points and sense of fun is too tightly coupled with survival because the expectation of survival is too high. And conversely the pipping system does not reward them for extending the game. But in the higher ranks simple by making ranking up harder they have shown to a degree that it is critical that you DO extend the game if you want the double and even single pip. By finishing the generators too quickly they could easily depip or safety. Which is effectively a loss.
If the points for survival were changed to be worth only 500 and the survival emblem was not linked to escape, but instead linked to the duration of time spent in the match (just like gatekeeper), then you'd see a massive change in the game in general.
Without changing a single other aspect of the game, if a Iridescent survival was represented by a 11+ min game with at least 1 generator remaining. Since if you let them count after the last gen was done then'd you'd get abuse scenarios with survivors just finishing the gens and then hiding.
Bonus) Personally I also believe ranks should be hidden and the pips themselves should only indicate your performance as rated by BHVRs metrics, until such a time they introduce a ranked mode and acknowledge a side as a winner and a side as a loser.
-
shred through windows! like he leaps through them and finishes the shred... would look awesome and take a way windows but not the rest of the counterplay that currently exists
-
@StarMoral said:
The more we lose the worse his internal stats will be, forcing the devs to start buffing him so he can actually compete
:D
if you're having trouble with legion you're playing him wrong.
I enjoy his play style and mostly 3 and 4k at R1 @DocOnLoose video he linked is a good example of how he should be played. IMO his is one of the most balanced all round killers and truly supports the style of play the devs intended with the emblem system.
I play with some different perks, but you can mix up his perks and addons for a variety minor variations from his general style.
-
@akbays35 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/816065#Comment_816065
But that's the issue in its entirety. What's the point to it if I need a perk, position, or item to escape or get enough bp to black pip? It's no measure of skill or ability, just coincidence and luck. You ever loop a killer for 5 minutes, go work on a gen, and just see your team die from dcing or committing suicide on 1 hook and the entity kills you before you get downed? I saw it at least 10 times playing in brown ranks on pc and xbox and actually had to use Wake Up to help me pip out of brown rank because dcing is such a bad epidemic. My issue is that it's the same boring mechanic that they just swung the hammer towards killers and I would like it if the devs worked on it to be more interactive or diversifying the escape mechanic especially with a 2 immersed remaining survivor issue, that still exists and they never fixed that. This game hasn't "grown" in three years and it still is pretty much the same as it's always been just with different frustrations. Part of it comes from the Devs never tweaking or lifting the skill ceiling for survivors, if there was more to do and different mechanics in chase/gens I think I'd be more overall satisfied with the game, but as it stand the game has entirely too much rng and game knowledge for newer players and it gets easy/broken if survivors know how to play.
TLDR: The Devs won't develop the game because survivors are dumb/bullies and they are forced to cater to killers to maintain a balanced stalemate and hopes expanding DLC and cosmetics will keep it profitable. Deathgarden is dead btw.
This is an inaccurate assesment of egc.
Prior to egc, survivors were guaranteed death if they were the last one left and 2 gens hadn't been completed. GUARANTEED.
Now, survivors will always have a chance at the hatch, regardless of the gen completion count.
You can't be grabbed out of the hatch now. Which means if survivor and killer see it a the same time from similar distance.
You have 3 options now at the end game. Hatch, gate 1 or gate 2. Depending on the distance from the gates the hatch is pretty much determines your chances.
You can hunt for the hatch, hope you find it first
Hide at gate one, wait for the killer to close the hatch then open immediately and hope he doesn't come to that gate.
Hide at gate two, wait for the killer to close the hatch then open immediately.
If you opt for gate hiding you're looking at a 50/50 chance with some randomness sprinkled in based on distance.
The new system is more survivor sided then the old system ever was, without causing hatch standoffs, and without causing survivor bullying by refusing to exit.
-
@ohheyitsbobcat said:
Honestly, I wish there was a way to let yourself bleed out faster on the ground so you could do this in game and have it be "fair". You can let yourself go on hook, I think it'd be neat to do the same on the ground so you can give the last person alive a chance at hatch instead of the hide-and-seek until I'm dead game.
Actually, I think it'd be cool for the survivor to have to crawl to the hook and interact with it to sacrifice themselves that way it's not free either. It'd also allow people to get out of those games where the killer just slugs everyone and lets you all bleedout.
I don't really get why it annoys people when they dc for hatch. I think it's funny considering the person lost everything just so someone else could get some extra points. The points you lose isn't really all that much either and it means the game is over quicker so you can get in another one. I've been on both sides of this so maybe that's why I don't get mad about it.
its just poor sportmanship. Especially if you're playing in the red ranks.
I had it happen a couple of times in the last couple of days. In both cases I was clearly going to win. I consider a 3k a win. I don't slug for the hatch, I just hook whoever I catch and if they die, I go look for the hatch. If I find it I close it then go to gates. It just doesn't matter to me that much if the final survivor escapes. So, yes, I agree it isn't that big of a deal when people do it.
But it is very much so, poor sportsmanship. I think slugging to death the 3rd to try and get the 4k is too. Now.. if you slugged for 30 secs to do a loop around to find the last one, or if when you down the 2nd to last you see the last one, thats different. Its all very situational.
Rather then Dcing for the hatch, just give yourself up as far from the hatch as you can.
-
@Desolate_Sands said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/814053#Comment_814053
I don't play any of the killers you mentioned. Yes, hooking someone means 1-2 survivors are off gens to save them, but as I mentioned, if you are playing against a very good group they won't be going down without dropping every pallet available. There is also a 59 second grace period that someone can just sit on hook and you don't even need to bother to save them yet. I always finish the gen I am working on before I go save someone who is on their first hook, and good survivors usually do the same.
So unless you get lucky and catch someone in a dead zone, you are going to get into a hefty chase against good survivors. That first chase can completely end the game if it is going on for 50-60 seconds if you are not running ruin. And making the first chase last 50-60 seconds isn't hard when every single pallet on the map is available.
A SWF team also wrecks your argument, and you will run into plenty of those at high ranks. Two people will still be on gens, only 1 will be going for the save.
You can't play other killers at high rank without a focus on gen defense.
That means slow down perks, in order of their value (imo). PGTW, RUIN, DL/Thana.
You gotta play zone D, don't worry about hooking as much as keeping survivors injured and keeping the 3 to 4 generators that are closest together regressed while clearing out all pallets in the zone.
Master playing this way and you'll find ALL the killers to be effective at R1. SWF struggle against this style of play. Even in the era of infinite this playstyle was super effective. It lost popularity because the games are too long for streamers to keep the attention span of their audiences... I would suppose.
I played a game today as legion in which in the first 3 to 4 mins of play they had completed 3 gens. It was an SWF, they all had flash lights. I had zoned out a corner of the map that had 3 gens close together. The survivors recognized the situation and started trying to chunk out the 2 gens furthest apart in the distribution. I 4ked. It was a long game. I'd chase someone if they left my zone I'd go back. I cleared pallets. Used KI to keep tabs on people entering the zone. Used hooks to target the most progressed in the group of 3. All the survivors were quite good, they were good at using jungle gyms and forced me to retreat back to gen defense on more then a few occasions without even going that far from the zone just because they managed to mind game at 2 jungle gyms that were fairly close to the group.
I'm R1, the survivors I played against were all R1. Which is fairly uncommon in my experience, I dont' get alot of all R1 games.
The mistake the survivors made was trying to break my control of my zone before they were down to 1 gen. Once I killed one they weren't able to turn it around. I was able to let 1 gen in the group go to get another kill, then finish the last 2 because they had been so focused on the group of 3 the 1 gen that was way on the other side of the map had 0 progress on it, so it was easy for me to use KI to force the survivors on and off the gens, flipping back and forth until I caught one out and downed him.
2 may have escaped if they had done the far map gen, but I would have gotten at least 2 of them simple because they would have all been on their last hooks.
One fairly common strat in R1 that I think will often fail you is trying to eliminate a single survivor so you're down to 3. While this can work, it often backfires.
Killers need to recognize that when you're playing to KILL and only kill your actually ignoring your primary objective. Which is to protect your generators. Protect the gens, the kills will come.
-
slow down builds in general are the builds that will currently shine.
Which btw, to play a proper slow down build you need to envision the end game, and try to plan the final 3 gens to give you the greatest advantage. The "s" tier killers are s tier because of map pressure, which allows them at R1 to be effective without using a slow down build or planning for the last gen.
Try legion with pgtw, ruin, thana, nc. Focus on gen defense and keeping everyone injured. Hook them when the opportunity arises, but only if multiple injuries abound or if ruin has gone down.
Try pig with pgtw, dl, thana, ruin. Again, gen defense and keep those rbt till ruin drops or they do the first gen (ignoring ruin). Play gen defense. You can run thana on pig with dl because the rbt keeps people from healing or doing gens.
try clown with DL, pgtw, ruin, thrilling tremors. Hook and bee line, keeping them injured isn't as important as getting hooks. In this case you need to stack DL before ruin pops if you can. TT is you can bee line after hook and use PGTW effectively.
These 3 are consider bottom tier killers but with slow down builds you do very well against all but the best. The key is you can't be afraid to break off the chase. You are playing the long game, zone defense.
Ruin is the common theme, mostly because its going to allow in, in the vast majority of games, to setup the other perks.
You don't have to play ruin of course, you can switch ruin out for another slow down perk. PGTW is the most effective. PGTW and TT is a good combo for slow down builds because it quickly helps you id the gen that you need to go to.
Perks like overcharge just aren't effective at R1 because survivors don't miss skill checks.
Thana is good but you can't tunnel if you run thana.
You an mix in BS, Enduring, SF, these are all good because zone defense works best if you force pallet drops in your zone.
Long games are good if you spread out the chases because you'll force pallet drops and eventually there will be no pallets left.
You can play any killer at rank 1 right now with a slow down build and generally find your self 1 or 2 pipping scoring 25 to 32k BP. I went from R8 killer to R1 playing exclusively legion with a slow down build.
I switched it up today with pig and clown and have had similar results.
-
Really depends on the level of play. His tonics simple aren't strong enough to effectively shut down loops except under ideal conditions. Though they do work well and funneling survivors the way you want them to go. But that doesn't matter that much.
But like all killers that can't 1 shot down or have significant map pressure, he suffers from the run and gun and simple can't pressure the gens enough to be very effective in red.
-
generator completion time isn't the root of the problem you are describing. If it is or is not really a problem is a different discussion.
The root cause is the inability of a large number of killers to effectively pressure gens (in the minds of poor killers who seem to think the purpose of this game is to kill survivors). Killing survivors is a by product of defending your generators.
You've got to understand, the lore around the entity is all a lie. The killers aren't the bad guy. All the lore is survivor propaganda. The survivors are trespassing little shits who are constantly vandalizing the killers property. The entities realm isn't hell for survivors, its hell for killers! The gates when opened lead to the property of the killers and the only way to keep those little bastards from defacing their homes is to stop them from turning on the generators.
Gen/zone defense builds used to be pretty common back in the day. Today you have even more options for making solid gen/zone defense builds. But a key to making them working is striving to make sure the survivors end up on the last 3 generators closest together, and by the time they've done that, ideally there are no pallets left on the map.
Every killer, if played with a focus on planning the zone you want to control, removing all the pallets from that zone and keeping the generators from being completed in that zone, can and will succeed in red ranks against good teams of survivors.
-
in the past this has always been the way bhvr has treated killers who survivors have clamored about being "unfun" to play against.
They effectively take them out of the rotation, and then bring them back into "usability" slowly.
-
The problem isn't the balance of the game, but your perception of winning and losing.
There are no winners/losers in this game based on kills/escapes. It isn't competitive. It's cooperative.
For the survivors and the killer to have the best possible chance at high scores and ranking up you must play in a way that provides both sides plenty of opportunity to complete their tasks.
4 man swf's who just gen rush and leave will not rank past 8.
Killers who camp and tunnel exclusively will not get into the red ranks.
You can play whatever way you want of course, but ranking up is the developers way of indicating how you performed. Which means you WIN with a double pip and win, with a single pip.
If winning to you as the killer is a 4k and winning to you as a survivor is escaping, then inherently you see that your view of winning itself is already unfairly balanced.
One could argue that the killer wins with a 3k because more survivors die then escape. 2 escapes is a tie and 3 or more is a win for survivors. However the ranking and even BP systems don't support this. Because you can 3 and 4k with a killer and not rank up and score below 15k bp.
Similiarly, as the survivor you can gen rush and leave and not rank up and score very poorly. But you can die and still rank up and score very well.
-
@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/795066#Comment_795066
As far as I've been aware totems give Boldness, not Objectives. I could be wrong, but I was pretty sure it was boldness.
they give objective points.
20 for dull and 50 for lit.
though I haven't personally checked the numbers in game
-
Killers shouldn't consider hatch escapes a loss.
The game just needs to promote that by awarding killers points and rank points appropriately.
-
@hiC said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/794300#Comment_794300
I’m following you all the way until the part about survivors being able to pip by doing gens and leaving; that part isn’t accurate. The survivors suffer from the same required cooperation by the other side as the killer. Really great explanation of the flaws, though!
1 or 2 of the survivors can by doing gens and leaving. Especially if no one gets hooked.
Iri light is 270 which is
all survivors get 25 points for all the gens getting done and 15 for the exit gate opening. So you start at 35. Dull totems are 20. And you get up to 33 points for being in a chase while others repair. So 270 is pretty easy as long as you do 2 gens and are active doing other things.
So Iri is going to go to at least 1 of the 4 survivors maybe 2.
Unbroken is an iri as long as you don't get downed or hooked. So Guaranteed 4 if you do gens and leave without interacting with the killer at all. Light can still be 4 because you can do 2 gens and 2 dull totems and you've got 275. So 8 points is very reasonable.
You start with 35 points in benevolent, so you you only need to heal one person to get silver and get silver, which puts you at 10 points. This will get you all the way to rank 8.
After r8 you need 12 points to rank up. So it gets harder to rank up without cooperating and playing right and of course r4 to r1 its even harder. But the survivors at this point were trained to gen rush...
-
The ranking system rewards cooperation by the survivors and the killer.
If the killer doesn't camp and tunnel and methodically hooks each survivor , such that everyone is on their last hook at the same time, at which point if they escape it doesn't matter to much.
Meanwhile, the survivors should play slowly, respect the threat of the killer. Heal themselves when injured, etc. By doing so, by the time they die or escape they will surely pip as well.
If both sides play their part everyone gets a bunch of blood points and a ranks up.
I'm not talking about cooperative farming, in which both sides are aware its a joke. Though this can be done as well to accomplish the same task.
In any case. Playing more selfishly will result in a more uneven distribution of results. Ranks will be lost by 2 or 3 of the survivors and the killer will safety or derank as well.
Killers can't rank up without giving the survivors every chance to escape (with the exception of brown ranks, where because you often 4k without a single generator being done you'll 1 pip). Which is troubling since there are emblems which cannot be effectively achieved without the cooperation of the survivors, especially at high ranks.
Survivors can rank up however, by gen rushing and leaving, simple because of the way the emblem system currently distributes rank points.
I could break down the flaws in the current emblem system and its contradictory nature with the killers version which promotes quasi cooperation, while the survivor version promotes a gen rush for a possible rank up and quasi cooperation (less obvious then gen rush and more difficult) for a guaranteed rank up regardless of death or escape.