leowt
leowt
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/410724/i-ve-had-it-with-double-iri-blights
What more do you want them to do to him? He’s already been nerfed so much a lot of people don’t even consider him S Tier anymore. Iri’s should be strong, they are ultra rare for a reason and the majority of them a garbage right now like Huntress’s soldiers Puttee
I am all in favor of strong iri addons, but why must they be on the top 2 killer? A skilled blight can already get great results without using these addons. Also, with how ubiquitous this combo is in my blight games, it certainly feels like the addons are common instead of ultra-rare. Do you realize how crazy 80% usage rate is? The survivor “equivalent” is an average of 3 BNPs/syringes every lobby.
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@Mr_K said:
I see you sneak in that Ruin buff.
Happily. Ruin was over-nerfed.
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@DemonDaddy said:
Are you suggesting the perk afflict another survivor in place of the hooked one?
Yep, that’s what I’m saying.
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Idk about overpowered, but Dead Man’s Switch is annoying as hell to vs and is probably unhealthy for the game. It’s okay when killers actually chase you off the gens after hooking another survivor, which is what the devs intended. But usually, it’s utilized in a build that gives killers way too much slowdown for the effort put in. How many times have you gone against facecamping Doctors/Artists that run DMS? And especially now with Ultimate Weapon and other screaming perks, this perk needs to be reassessed for its healthiness in the game.
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@thisislastyearsmodel said:
I don't disagree that they probably should have put more thought into her rework, but like... Are you just DC-ing every time you load into a game against her or what?
I play mostly solo q and I understand how much the odds are especially stacked against me. I know that it will not be a fun experience and I usually just dissociate from the match. I know that the outcome does not fully reflect my skill. But I would outright DC if she has Iri Video Tape, Ring Drawing, Sloppy Butcher and Hex: Face the Darkness because that is a Sadako that knows what she's doing.
@radiantHero23 said:
I and may others told the devs in the Ptb feedback that this would happen. We got ignored.
Revert the changes bhvr.
#bringbackSadako
Old Sadako certainly needed buffs but I don't think this is the way the devs should've done it. To be fair, I think the monster that emerged was an unintended outcome.
@Thusly_Boned said:
The new Onryo condemnation strat is busted, for sure. But an Onryo player playing basic hit and run and not using condemnation as their primary goal? I don't see the problem. And there are Sadako players out there who don't play the way you are describing.
Of course the problem is that with these changes we have a bunch of new Sadako players leaning hard on the new new strat, so the fair Sadako players seem few and far between.
And playing a non-condemnation-first Sadako is work, let me tell you.
Yeah, I agree. It's so difficult to play her as intended so I respect you for trying to play her on Hard mode. The problem is that her design actively incentives the condemnation playstyle which is so strong. The average Sadako has no reason not to use her to her full potential.
@Devil_hit11 said:
post translation: I play survivor badly, so please weaken the killer so I can escape playing badly.
Go bait elsewhere.
@Mockingjay_S451 said:
I’ve had a lot of matches against her since the rework, and I’ve not had a single one that prioritised hooks over trying to get people condemned so that she could Mori them.
I also noticed that when there is one survivor left (when the odd chance of them not slugging when there are two left), she just teleports as fast as she can from tv to tv to try to build up condemned quickly. So the last survivor has to pick if they want to look for hatch, or try to find a tape and active tv to lower their condemned.
I personally feel that the games against her now are just oppressive and are not fun. I don’t mind dying, heck if I minded dying I would never play this game… but at least in some matches you feel like you have a chance. I don’t feel that when I go against her now.
My experience mirrors yours exactly. I don't feel the same sense of hopelessness and dread against any other killer as I do against Sadako. It's usually not worth playing out.
@Yamaoka said:
You are absolutely right and the only people denying she's busted are the same people "enjoying" her in that outright unfair state at the expense of survivors.
I'm sure the devs are aware but they probably want to hit a certain number of sales before adjusting her power.
I wonder if Sadako defenders are just being deliberately obtuse or if they haven't thought through the full implications of Sadako's power. Or maybe they think it's fair because they personally haven't stretched her to her limits of what she is capable of.
@MaTtRoSiTy said:
All I can say is I don't know why they buffed her anyway, she was still perfectly fine against the vast majority of the DBD survivor player base who are low/med skill casuals.
The problem she has now is she destroys the average solo queue team with very little effort or skill. Another case of me left scratching my head at BHVR and why they decided to change something
She definitely needed some help in chase. But yeah, they buffed her in a way that makes her even more lethal against casuals.
@Murgleïs said:
She is not a stealth killer. She has a lullaby of 24m.
The fact that you get "caught" in a bad spot, in enough to know that it is a skill issue. She gets destroyed against a good SWF.
Not every map is like Garden of Joy where you can quickly get to safety when she comes within 24m of you. That's quite disingenuous. Also, she can give good SWFs a run for their money if you play her optimally. Lastly, most of your games are not against good SWFs.
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Same. I crashed twice as Pinhead, both times upon hooking the Obsession.
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Holy ######### thanks for the info. I was out of the loop about toggle interaction for gens. Thank you so much!
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Thank you for listening, devs! Really glad you guys listened to the community. Love the 16s altruistic heals and I love the elegant change of DH to become a passive deterrent to tunneling much like how DS used to be.
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@Pulsar said:
It was not.
Tinkerer pops, go to gen, chase Survivors off gen, watch gen regress. Repeat until Ruin + Undying was broken.
I think if we keep tinkerer to proc once per gen, it'll be fine. Also, that's why survivors made it a priority to cleanse the totems immediately before committing to gens.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381733#Comment_3381733
What's the post title:
Leave altruistic healing alone
-"Medkits will save survivors even more time than before, making them even more necessary than before."
While medkits will likely be more necessary than before they will not be healing for 8 seconds anymore. So the claim of them saving more time is just not true.
Compare 10.7 seconds to 45.7 seconds (medkit vs self care).
Compare 10.7 seconds to 16*2 seconds (medkit vs team healing)
And After
Compare 24 seconds to 24*2 seconds (Medkit vs team healing)
10.7-45.7= 35 seconds. (medkit vs self care before)
48-24 = 24 seconds (medkit vs team healing after)
68.6-24= 44.6 seconds (medkit vs self care after)
The take away message here is that self care is getting nerfed to oblivion. This is fine because infinitely healing invalidates pressure from the killer.
-"Camping will be more profitable than before"
Gens will fly like they always have - maybe even faster. In the current meta you can blast the hell out of a generator with Overcharge +CoB and then use a scourge hook. None of those perks will be worth it after the patch.
What you will see more of is : slugging and easy unhook denial. You are going to get severely punished for playing hurt. So you can blast the gens but you'll pay for it when you need to make the unhook.
The survivor team will always have to keep one player unhurt to be able to unhook or then the killer can camp out a hook state.
Because healing is the new secondary objective - this will take up lots of time.
Mate, why are you still on about Self Care? It is currently ass and it will continue to be ass. If you still see Self Care in your lobbies and are triggered by it, ngl your mmr might just be low.
I’ve already crunched the numbers in my original post, there’s no need to regurgitate this stuff to me.
The basis for which all healing should be compared to is altruistic heals, and not Self-Care.
Even after this upcoming nerf, medkits will save 24s, up from 16s before.
I don’t know what we are debating about anymore. I don’t even know what your point is, it just seems like you’re talking completely past me.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381640#Comment_3381640
-"Did you even read my post?"
You want team members healing each other to be faster than self healing. Self Care already got a slower heal speed nerf but for six years it had the same mechanical advantage as two people healing. It used the same "time" resources for the team if travel time were zero but if there was travel time then SC was actually more efficient.
-"the increase in healing time from 16 to 24s should not apply to altruistic healing."
Yes it should. Why? Self Care already has a built in penalty. Survivors can bring We'll Make it to heal everyone faster. In fact if this patch made a "Well Make it" meta then you could always get fast heals after an unhook.
There is a perk that already makes healing other people better - maybe you should use it :
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7MEBV3Y4MCVR/image.png
The devs are basically making healing be the "second objective" everyone has asked for since the beginning.
- You can play the game hurt and risk getting caught but do the gens faster but you might die faster too.
- You can slow the game down and heal but gens will take longer.
"You want team members healing each other to be faster than self-healing".
Yes. You are not considering the fact that as of now, 2 team members healing for 16s is equivalent to 32s of gen progress. After the change, 2 team members healing for 24s is equivalent to 48s of gen progress. On the other hand, if the teammate heals themself with the new medkit, they will be spending 24s for an equivalent of 24s of gen progress. Even if you kept altruistic healing times to 16s, self-healing with the new nerfed medkit is still more efficient.
The reason why I questioned whether you read my post is that you completely missed the fact that I support the nerfs to boon COH and medkits, the 2 primary ways that survivors heal themselves. Yet, you disagreed with gusto even though I am literally saying the same thing as you.
"Self Care"
First of all, I don't care for Self-Care and I never have. Self-Care is irrelevant. Second of all, I am advocating for altruistic heals to remain at 16s. This literally does not apply to Self-Care. Self-healing via medkits and Self-Care should be changed to 24s basekit speed (meaning I'm okay if Self-Care gets nerfed from 45.7s to 68.6s. Lastly, this really proves to me that you are misunderstanding this whole conversation.
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"the increase in healing time from 16 to 24s should not apply to altruistic healing."
Yes it should. Why? Self Care already has a built in penalty. Survivors can bring We'll Make it to heal everyone faster. In fact if this patch made a "Well Make it" meta then you could always get fast heals after an unhook.
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Sorry, I don't really understand how the presence of We'll Make It and Autodidact in the game justify nerfing altruistic heals. The logic there is equivalent to saying that gens should be 60s because killers have slowdown perks like Deadlock. Like what?
"Secondary Objective"
Yes, I agree with you on this point. What I'm saying is that without boon COH and with nerfed medkits, this secondary objective would already take significantly longer to achieve. There is no need to nerf altruistic healing because there is already significant foregone gen progress, a time investment in finding and travelling to your teammate, and a risk due to grouping up.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381647#Comment_3381647
I'd rather have a meta where injuries matter, regardless if I'm facing solo q or SWF, so I can be encouraged to chase people. The current healing speeds (altruistic healing included) are way too fast, and it often feels like a much better decision to stay in one place, than it is to chase after survivors that want to run too far away from the unfinished generators.
If altruistic healing stays the same, then injuries don't matter. I usually don't know if I'm against a SWF, and I need to assume every match will have lots of altruistic healing. There are so many times where I have Nurse's Calling equipped, and altruistic healing is so fast that I can't even get to the survivors before the healing is done. Altruistic healing speeds are a problem, and they need nerfing.
I think that the current meta where it feels like injuries don't matter is enabled by boon COH and medkits, which deserve to be nerfed. But it's not so much altruistic healing speeds in my opinion. There are already significant downsides to altruistic healing, including the foregone gen progress of 32 seconds, not to mention finding and traveling to a teammate to heal you, which is not only time-consuming but also exposes you to the risk of running into the killer. Furthermore, it encourages survivors to group up, which makes them more vulnerable to killers pressuring 2 survivors at once. The only thing that differentiates SWF with respect to altruistic heal is the coordination of where to meet for the heal. Maybe the issue with the lack of Nurse's Calling value is a wrong prediction of where the survivors might be grouping up to heal.
At any rate, I feel like the nerfs to COH and medkit self-heal speeds are sufficient, and you will witness a huge difference even if basekit altruistic healing speeds remain at 16s.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381630#Comment_3381630
Well that’s just the thing, these healing changes DO incentivize the killers to leave the hook and pressure other survivors as now their injures matter and they are more likely to have shorter chases since more people will be injured and DH is basically gone.
This said, if the healing changes do stick I would be in favor of nerfing other gen slow down perks like Deadlock, Jolt ect since the “slow down” would have been transferred to healing.
I agree that the incentives ARE there to take chase. At the same time, because injuries DO matter, there would be an even greater incentive to just proxy camp and get free hits/hooks. So yes, while there are more choices a killer could make, nothing really stops them from taking the path of least resistance. Also, with the DH nerfed this way, there are disincentives for killers to allow survivors to go for the unhook.
I personally feel that any amount of nerfs to the remaining few gen slowdown perks will not be able to compensate for the 50% increase in basekit healing. I'd be happy to nerf medkits and boon COH and keep pain res, cob, and overcharge the way it is rather than facing a healing regression meta.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369223/leave-altruistic-healing-alone
Sorry but you're wrong. There are too many ways to heal in DBD currently. Medkits could heal 2-3 times per game and offered very quick heals. Boons added a 5th phantom player to heal anyone in its radius and that broke the game too.
When you look at the DH meta it didn't matter when you got hurt because you had to get hit twice more. It was overall far harder to inflict an injury than it was to heal it.
Did you even read my post? I've said the nerf to boon COH is good and justified, and I think it's good that medkit self-heals are increased to 24s and capped at 2 heals. Nerfing self-healing of all kinds is good for the game. I only want altruistic healing speeds to remain at 16s.
Also, if you want to complain about DH, there are hundreds of other threads for that - not this one.
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@Blueberry said:
I actually think this reduces camping as now gen regression perks will slow the gens down significantly less making punishing a camping killer much easier. If a random survivor is just running in alone and getting hit to go back and heal that’s a bad save from the survivor. He should be going in simultaneously with others. To be honest though if he’s camping you should be just pumping gens anyway though and not saving. This change will incentivize less camping as well.
Yes those healing numbers do look rough but the gen regression nerfs offset that a lot. The gen slow down has to come from somewhere. If you don’t want it in healing it’s going to go back to gen regression. At least when it’s in healing it makes gen perks less required on killers which is a good thing as it opens up the meta more.
@philward1953 said:
"Camping will be more profitable than before. Killers can injure survivors coming for the save, and since it will take survivors a longer time to reset to go back for the save, there is a higher risk of a survivor hitting stage 2/dying and hook trading becomes more necessary."
I feel like if you're getting hit, and you go back to reset every time without another survivor there to actually get the save or without trading hooks, I feel like that's just a bad save and the survivor shouldn't have gone for it in the first place.
Could camping actually go down BECAUSE of how survivors can get hit and not reset in a hot sec? There is potential for more targets that are unhealthy now.
I'm not sure that the gen regression perks that synergize well with camping, i.e. Deadlock and DMS, have been affected significantly, save for Pain Res. So I don't think it necessarily means camping is easier to punish. Meanwhile, gen-kicking perks have been nerfed to the ground, so there is not much incentive to go away from the hook and towards the gens to apply them.
A lot of killers I've gone up against who play optimally proxy camp, giving you the illusion that you can go for the save. What ends up happening is I go for the unhook, and I see that the killer is not too close to the survivor, and I try to go for the save. The killer then hits me, and as I try to lead them away from the hook, they do a 180-degree turn and head back to the hook. Meanwhile, the whole time, the other 2 survivor sees that I am not on the gen (signaling that I'm going for the unhook). After I get hit, someone else will have to go in for the save (because healing me would take too long) and find the killer is camping. By then, it'll already be too late and someone will have to go and trade or the hooked survivor will hit second stage.
Also, unless it's a Bubba, it's always going to be optimal to trade instead of letting someone hit second stage or die on second hook. Not going for an unhook to do an additional gen doesn't mean much when someone is going to be quickly out of the game.
In conclusion, I think the changes to altruistic healing speeds will enable camping to be more profitable and easier.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369223/leave-altruistic-healing-alone
Keeping the altruistic time investment the same as not a fair time investment, because all the good gen kicking perks got nerfed into the ground, and killers need the slowdown shifted to healing speeds.
It doesn't matter if one type of healing is more problematic than others, because that's not the point. The point is the gen regression slowdown is being shifted to healing speeds, and that requires all healing speeds to be nerfed.
And I don't know why people keep focusing on medkits, when there are a bunch of healing speed perks they could start using. Maybe the solution is healing speed perks are more valuable than before, which would encourage survivors to use different perks, which would be good because it's supposed to be a meta shift.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381276#Comment_3381276
A lot has changed since 2018, and we deserve to let the full meta shift happen. Game slowdown needs to be shifted to all healing, to encourage killers to chase survivors. The problem we are trying to solve is killers not wanting to chase survivors. The problem isn't whether or not some types of healing are more of an issue than others.
I understand completely where you are coming from. What I am concerned about this next patch is that the healing regression meta will be significantly more oppressive than the gen regression meta.
Consider the following scenario. You get hit by a killer with Sloppy Butcher. You find a teammate. 20+ seconds through the heal, the killer comes back to harass you and your teammate (not even committing to a chase, just to interrupt the heal), and your 20+ seconds heal (40 seconds of foregone gen progress) regresses to 0 almost immediately. There has been no gen regression (maybe except the 25s incapacitated eruption) that would erase 40+ seconds of gen time in a span of seconds.
Even with the strongest existing healing perks, I'm really not sure if survivors will be able to get heals off fast enough than the killers can dish out health states (or regress heals).
Furthermore, consider scenarios in which killers get cheap and easy hits, like when survivors go for the unhook. I'm not sure if the slowdown that the killers gain (60 seconds of gen time) is in line with the skill and effort it took to get that hit.
Although I see your point as to how the shift to healing slowdown can encourage chases, they can easily be abused. And believe me, they will definitely be abused.