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Just make them aware that the learning curve might be a little rough compared to many other games.
Also make clear that killer is the power role and therefore it is unlikely they will escape very often. If they lower their expactations, they wont find it that frustrating anymore.
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@Feetman said:
I mean full kit too. Map offerings, BGP, BO, etc. They didn't throw the Obs at me, and I kept seeing the same three players so ofc I hit or down them. I even intentionally went for people not fresh off hook (Except for one time) and they still call me a tunneler.
Do survivors even enjoy the game?
Strange Post.
Dont assume things on a single example?
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
People hate her because they don't understand her counterplay + they hate her because of her past.
You can avoid her drones in many ways and even in chase too, just stand for a second or crouch for like second when the beam is going for you and watch her drones rotation, because in some cases, you can have enough window to avoid the beam before getting hit from SM. Yes, you can't loop her well but that is how the power is designed and how many many killer powers work. Try looping Nemesis, Artist, Xeno, Slinger on some loops, Pyramid Head, etc...
Survivors play againts her mindlessly as well. When I play her, nobody tries to do anything and even when attemping to disable drones it is usualy not needed for them to disable it or they get scaned / injured in process or get injured for free with info on them just running around.
I think she is overhated. She is not the most fun to verse killer lets say or most skillfull, but she rly isn't that much different or horrible than your avarage M2 anti-loop killer. People just overreact and hate her from past and lack of effort from survivor side too.
I am sorry but we tried way to many SM Custom games to know that there is no legit counter play besides the obvious ones. Most of her so called counter plays like stoping during chase only work in very niche situations. Going with the rotation is also not viable since she can swap or simply chase in a different direction.
The only counter play is to work as a team and rush the gens. SWF coms are your best bet - calling out the upcoming chase area and disable drones, but even that is short lived.
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I just had 2 rounds back to back against a Nurse with
- Dead man's switch
- Ultimate Weapon
- Pain res
- X
I DONT THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO STOP NERFING KILLER PERKS! NOT AT ALL!
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632584#Comment_3632584
I reach 8 surges/kicks on gens on a regular basis in live. Usually it's when survivors push hard on center gens and disregard gens further away so its the only gens to defend...or its a map like the game where the center of the map hits oretty much every gen. I have a few videos of these matches and posted one a few days ago.
I would love to watch that. Can you post the link?
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632054#Comment_3632054
STBFL really didn't need a nerf, it is unfortunate this perk was sent to the chopping block.
I completly agree. STBFL is only really a good perk on M1 killers and they could need some extra help in chase compared to M2's.
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@Ghoste said:
I feel like killer should be able to have 5 or six perks.
4 perks is plenty. If you're struggling, you're either using sub-optimal builds, playing one of the weaker Killers, or just need to improve. A good Nurse or Blight, for example, doesn't need any perks to win, let alone 5 or 6.
the game is pretty survivor sided
According to Nightlight, the current Kill Rate is 55%. So DBD is Killer-sided on average. In fact, not a single Killer is averaging below 50% right now.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ISW51XMJBQTF/dbd-nightlight-kill-rate-jpg.jpg
every survivor we have gotten in the past year just have perks killers can't even counter.
The only Survivor perk in the past year that became meta was Made For This, which has since been heavily nerfed. No other perk is even close to meta. In fact, most of them have been garbage recently.
We know from previous stats compared to NL, that NL stats are not accurate. In reality, killrates are probably 5% higher.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632857#Comment_3632857
Not going to explain to you again, in excruciating detail, in any way and form possible, why a 60% ON AVERAGE kill rate means 40% ON AVERAGE winrate for both sides.
You never explained it at all. You looked at the AVERAGE statistics as they were and outright claimed they were a mathematical impossibility. You were furiously denying observable reality.
If the kill rate is lower than 60% ON AVERAGE, the game is ON AVERAGE not killer sided. Period. You could come up with all the mental gymnastics and fallacies you want, it's an empirical mathematical fact.
There was nothing empirical about it. Your theory was entirely that: Theoretical. The empirical, IE: the stats that were shown, disagreed with your theory.
I even pointed out to you that the model you used would mandate that any killer with an average kill rate below 50% would have an average win rate of 0%, which would necessitate that they had never gotten a 3K+ in even one singular match.
If you leave your theory behind for a moment and look at what is observable in the statistics shown on Nightlight at the moment, we can see that killers, on average, are at a 48% winrate. Survivors are, on average, at a 45% winrate.
Which of those two numbers is higher?
Because right now, you are fully claiming that 45%>48%.
Sorry to say this, but it is pointless. We already came up a million times with undenyable facts and statistics that prove what you try to prove right now. I say try because you wont succeed, no matter how undenyable those facts (for example Nightlight stats) are.
Like @Pulsar said above "Once again, I am asking you, politely, to prove your point. How is the game Survivor-sided?". They never do, never had a true argument why those stats could be wrong but just talk around them or completly ignore them.
Its okay, we dont have to agree on everything and if someone thinks 99% killrate is also survivor sided, so be it.
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@Lixadonna said:
This games is being balanced for Casuals. Unlike other Casual friendly games, still not Free to Play. Devs want players to feel good with no effort. Skill doesn't matter anymore. Players who played for 7 years find game too easy. For a game that's not free, why be Casual friendly? You don't see Call of Duty aiming to please Casuals. Not to mention 7 years of DLC and cosmetics. If aiming to attract Casuals, just go Free to Play.
No thanks because of 2 reasons:
- I want them to earn money, so they can update the game and create new content.
- Free games are more attractive to cheater. Getting banned? No problem, free account incoming.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632233#Comment_3632233
What are the extreme outliners here? It is just one small component of the game which speaks for the killer beeing overpowered. There are many others of course. Overall winrate for example.
I've explained this to you. I won't do it again. As for the win rate, I've seen people explain it to you before, and I've seen you fail to grasp their explanation a dozen times or more. The 60% thing is not, by any means, complex, yet even when a dev has explained it to you in a previous topic, you've nuh-uh'd them and continued believing what you want. If it's all the same, I'll let that can of worms go unopened.
Excuse me? Why should this not be comparable? Why would it matter if they have different objectives? They play in the same realm against each other. The only difference is that killers objective is easier to achieve then the survivors objective. The numbers are the only truth we have.
It's an asymmetrical game, this has been explained to you. And the numbers are worth nothing when you've been shown to be so very willing to ignore them or the context behind them when it benefits your argument.
I've explained this to you. I won't do it again. As for the win rate, I've seen people explain it to you before, and I've seen you fail to grasp their explanation a dozen times or more. The 60% thing is not, by any means, complex, yet even when a dev has explained it to you in a previous topic, you've nuh-uh'd them and continued believing what you want. If it's all the same, I'll let that can of worms go unopened.
Those "explanations" were obviously wrong. A dev did it and basically only proven my point.
Go on Nightlight and check for stats. And see for youself a killer who has 60% killrate. I bet it is 60% winrate or above. Just do it, come back later.
It's an asymmetrical game, this has been explained to you. And the numbers are worth nothing when you've been shown to be so very willing to ignore them or the context behind them when it benefits your argument.
All your talk are words with no context, sorry. Invalidate my statement? Try that instead. 😋
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632218#Comment_3632218
I'm not twisting anything, I'm stating facts. You're using an extreme outlier to make your point, while arguing against the use of an extreme outlier that would make that point look weak. The number of players who could get win streaks in the hundreds or thousands can most likely be counted on both hands. It is rare to the point where it's not something than can ever be reasonably brought up in the average balance conversation.
It's an asymmetrical game and, Killers, by the very nature and intention of the genre, are more powerful and have more options available to them than Survivors. Killers and Survivors have different objectives and different means to achieve those objectives. They're not supposed to be directly comparable - of course they can't achieve anything close to what Killers can (though low hundreds has been proven possible), they're essentially playing a different game with different rules.
What are the extreme outliners here? It is just one small component of the game which speaks for the killer beeing overpowered. There are many others of course. Overall winrate for example.
It's an asymmetrical game and, Killers, by the very nature and intention of the genre, are more powerful and have more options available to them than Survivors. Killers and Survivors have different objectives and different means to achieve those objectives. They're not supposed to be directly comparable - of course they can't achieve anything close to what Killers can (though low hundreds has been proven possible), they're essentially playing a different game with different rules.
Excuse me? Why should this not be comparable? Why would it matter if they have different objectives? They play in the same realm against each other. The only difference is that killers objective is easier to achieve then the survivors objective. The numbers are the only truth we have.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632211#Comment_3632211
When did they buff tunnelling?
They buff tunneling with every map change. With the low amount of pallets and the deadzones (hook them in a deadzone) created with just droping a single pallet, tunneling is obviously hard to deal with.
On top of that, tunneling became more effective with the +10 seconds on extra repair time on generators. In the past, proxycamping and tunneling was not fast enough because of that, now you can create a 3v1 at even 2 gens left (which is basically a automatic win).
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632101#Comment_3632101
And 99.99% of Killer players don't have the 10-15k hours (literally over a year of accumulated play time) of experience or anywhere close to the skills required to do that, so the majority of players will never face such a strong Killer. Therefore arguments concerning kill streaks are irrelevant.
If it's unreasonable to equate the skill of the average team to comp teams, you also shouldn't be using comp Killer players as an example of anything either. And as far as I'm aware, only Blight and Nurse are expected to 3-4k in comp.
But those top tier survivor teams do have this requirement. Again, they are the best of the best and can not nearly achieve what killer can do. Sorry, you can turn it however you want but it stays a fact: Killer can go for thousends of wins, and survivors can not, not even the best of the best together.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632117#Comment_3632117
Killer mains defined the 60% now? I thought that was BHVR's standard.
I have been involved in way to many discussions around this so it is only fair that i stick with that standard. Those i said are basically 1 to 1 quotes.
EDIT: Killer mains defend the 60% killrate. The reason why it is "fair" for them is because killer is supposed to be the scary monster and therefore they should win more often.
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632103#Comment_3632103
Probably because we have killer players that also go on huge win streaks. There is a minory that dominate everyone else. Either because are simply so much better or because they use the stronest stuff in the game. However, the general kill rates even with those outliers, is about the same as what would be expected.
Also keep in mind, that these kill rates are for the highest 5% MMR on each individual killer. Not the highest 5% MMR in general. There is a good chance the top 10% Nurse MMR is still higher than the top 5% Freddy MMR.
That is also not neccessary true. Again, i can only say what i remember, but it was pretty even. Also Trapper or Pig had high winrate on top level. I am aware that nightlight is not accurate, but it is close enough for reference. There the winrates speak the same language.
About top MMR on specific killer. From what seems to be logical to me is that high winrate = high MMR. Therefore, when Trapper on high MMR has lets say 60% winrate and Nurse has 60% winrate, they play against the same kaliber of survivors.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632108#Comment_3632108
Of course killer has to be the power role. It's a 1 vs. 4 game. The 1 has to be strong to compete against the 4. They have to have power to balance the game at all. That's what "power role" means.
We both have a different definition on power role. Of course the killer has to be stronger then one survivor. That is obviously out of question.
Bu the usual case killer mains define power role "Killer has to have 60% or more killrate so he is a scary monster". And that is something i disagree with.
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I would bring a very wild change just to delete Tunnel Meta in a split second:
- 4 seconds stun
- 10 seconds power remove
I know, that sounds extreme but DS has to be meta again.
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@StonedDino said:
I started playing DBD about a month and a half ago right before my winter break for college had started. I had crazy amounts of free time to spare so I spent it learning and playing DBD. I started playing as a survivor so I could play with my friends and be able to have someone tell me exactly what the killers can do. After playing for a couple of hours I came to the realization that killers seemed very strong. I brushed it off as me being bad and salty about the game, but as I continued to play, I noticed that certain killers/playstyles would win the matches every time I would see them played. It seemed like if the killer wanted to win by either tunneling, proxy camping, or 3 gen-ing, they would almost be guaranteed the win. If the killer wasn't being super toxic in their playstyle, it would be the perk set-ups that would get them the win, with the amount of gen regression perks available as well as certain Hexes, there would basically be a new objective for the survivors. It felt like if the killer wanted to run a combination of hexes with pentimento, or a combination of gen regression perks, they would have an insane amount of pressure from the start that felt unplayable for the survivors. God, forbid they do BOTH. Regardless, I thought to myself that maybe my issue was that I didn't know how killer played, or I didn't understand that they needed to do that to win, so I decided to try and play killer myself, with some self-imposed rules.
-I would not tunnel anybody off hook
-If I hooked someone, I would leave the hook so they would have a chance to be unhooked and healed
-If I spotted someone on death hook early into the game, I decided not to chase to make the game more interesting
-I would never force a 3 gen
-I would not use map offerings to get easier maps for my killers
-I would try to get everyone to death hook before actually killing someone
-I would not slug for the 4K just because I knew the last survivor could get hatch
I played a combination of legion, nurse, and spirit. After about two days of gameplay (about 11 hours in-game) I was easily able to make it to iridescent 1. What make this even more surprising to me is that during these games about 1/3 of the games I would befriend the survivors and give them free escapes or hatch if they had just given up or given me a laugh. In the after-lobby chats, I would have survivors thanking me and saying gg about every game, simply for my playstyle, and even still I made it to the top rank with complete ease.
After saying all of that I can say with complete confidence that killer is honestly over tuned, and the anti-camp system is a complete joke. What sucks even more is that killer is rewarded for having a ######### playstyle of either tunneling, proxy camping, or forcing 3 gens.
I think that killers believe that survivors are OP, but the number of useful perks that survivors have compared to killers is an absolute joke. You see so many of the same perks on survivors because so many of them are so specific that you never get use out of them. Whereas killers have the opposite problem, and their perks work too well.
Honestly, I could be in the wrong, but I can't find any meaningful arguments of why killer is underpower, or why survivors are OP.
Honestly, I could be in the wrong, but I can't find any meaningful arguments of why killer is underpower, or why survivors are OP.
There is none. Killers are not underpowered at all, they are clearly overpowered. Even diehard killer mains cant really deny that anymore. The argument of them is that killer should be the "power role" so the game is more intense for both sides.
I personally completly disagree with that, since i know that a fair balance in DBD is the most fun. Actually for both sides.
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@Astel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632005#Comment_3632005
If killer has better skill than survivors, killer should win the game. He is top tier player and he should win most of the pub matches. This should go same to other killers other than Nurse and Blight.
According to that, killer are the better players? The best survivor team in the world could not achieve anything even close to what standard killer (i am not talking about spirit, Nurse or Blight) can do, even with the very forgiving "3 person out" restriction.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631999#Comment_3631999
Pub stompers basically. Let him play in a tournament against people that are just as good and suddenly it all becomes a lot closer. Is this really such a surprise? The people at the very top, that use the best things in the game will stomp everyone else.
But in general, what @Astel said is true. Killers have the upper hand in lower MMR, while survivors have the upper hand in high MMR. There are exceptions of course (mainly Blight and Nurse because they are so much stronger than the other killers) but as a rule of thumb, this works pretty well. Don't forget, not all killers are Nurse and Blight. We also have Freddy, Myers and Trapper, which represent the other extreme. Some killers are too strong, others too weak.
The game does have some balance issues but the devs aim at a 60% kill rate. By that standard, the game should be in a pretty good spot. The last official kill rates where from 6.1.0, when killers were the strongest they had ever been and the kill rates were pretty close to that goal. Since then, we've only had Nightlight to go by which has always tracked a slightly lower kill rate (mostly about 55%).
while survivors have the upper hand in high MMR.
Questionable. We dont know the current statistics, but those in the past showed that in high MMR, the killrate for killers were equal if not higher then on lower MMR.
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@Astel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631999#Comment_3631999
He is playing Blight, who is obviously broken killer. Most of the killers are much weaker than Blight. And that win streak is made in pub while he is very good blight player and we all know DBD's mmr is screwed up. If survivors are not strong in high levels, why there are many limitations in tournaments for survivors while killers have almost none?
I created a thread a while ago about killer winstreaks. The central point of that is a video from Otzdarva in which he highlights some crazy killer winstreaks. In short, it is possible with many if not all killer to go on high winstreaks in the hundreds or even thousends. For survivors, it is not.
Whenever killer come up with a counter argument to that topic, it usually starts with "But comp survivors". First of all, it is not true. Even in comp, killer have a positive expected outcome. Also i dont know which tournament or league you are participating or you watching, but i can assure you that killer have restrictions aswell.
And second, it is overall a bad argument because 99,99% of this game is outside of comp and the majority of player will never ever face such a strong team. Therefore it is irrelevant.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631764#Comment_3631764
but they went to far with other stuff
Can you give some examples?
Maps. They removed connected tiles basically completly. Loops were changed to silly "Stand-Off Pallets". Palet count is probably not even half at this point.
Killer. While nerfing the maps tremendously, they kept buffing killer more and more with very rare exceptions. And on top of that, they added more and more opporessive killer kits that dont even feel like DBD anymore. The Knight or Twins for example. A big reason why everybody is now drop & W. Not playable anymore.
Artstyle. The feeling of the game in general. How the maps looked and how they look now. They used to be so spooky, now they are closer to Fortnite then old DBD.
Ranking. MMR is completly unproductive in a fun game like DBD. Because of that, people take the game more serious. Old ranking was designed to be a decent killer / survivor and do things to please the entity. Many hooks, many chases, many generators, helping teammates. Look at it now.
Just to name a few things.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631740#Comment_3631740
Isnt every killer a anti loop killer in some way?
It probably depends on how you define anti-loop.
For me, anti loop is defined by the term anti loop itself. You cant loop the killer and the correct play would be to drop the pallet / leave the loop right away.
In other words. A very minimalistic killer interaction.
Notice that i have also added Free Hit killers. They are a step further. You can not even stay at a tile, droping the pallet /breaking LOS wont help, you get hit over time, no matter what. Everything is in the hand of the killer and RNG.
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@OrangeBear said:
I only played since 2021 but i don't really understand how people can think old dbd (i am thinking 2017-2019) was a better designed game. I can understand enjoying the game more, but i can't understand thinking it was a better made game.
I wasn't playing then as i said but i have done research.
There was loads of overpowered things like 1 hook moris, decisive strike not having the deactivation conditions, object of obsession.
Map balance looked bad to me. Pallets were everywhere and there was a lot of crazy window loops. Nurse and Spirit were stronger.
The atmosphere i guess i can understand.
As @GeneralV already said, there were things that had to be changed, but they went to far with other stuff. Not everything was perfect by any means. But if you ask me, 2018-2020 was still the best years this game ever had. I would gladly take that version instead of what we have now. If they change just a few of the BS things like Insta Heal or Mori, it would have been close to perfect.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
Aside from the aesthetics, there's little I miss about the gameplay of old DbD.
People look at classic DbD with very rose-tinted glasses IMO.
As a killer, i actually had a challange.
As a survivor, we actually had fun.
Watching the old videos we recorded (i have hundreds of them flying around on my D: ) makes it even more apparent why old DBD was so much better in almost every regard.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631703#Comment_3631703
Begs the question though...
What makes the game unfun for survivors right now?
Overpowered killers.
Less interactive killers.
Anti Loop killers.
Free hit killers like Knight, Skull Merchant and others.
Tunneling and proxycamping killers.
Stale Meta.
Tryhard sweats everywhere.
Terrible maps with no recources (Just counted 8 Pallets on a Coldwind map, seriously?)
Because of these reasons and probably many more, survivors may DC very quickly. And because of that, the other teammates become frustrated and might give up early aswell. It is obviously a vicous circle that can only be fixed by fixing the game. Any more penalty will just make them uninstall the game, thats it.
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@BubMickey07 said:
New dbd is great don't get me wrong but old dbd was so much more fun, it was the reason I started playing and fell in love with the game I miss old hex ruin, old ds, I miss the old atmosphere but most importantly I miss how people used to play.
And I played both killer and survivor 50/50 and never really thought the game was bad for either side just really laggy but it was worth it.
And I know the dev team is trying their hardest to make the game fun for everyone but right now the game is to killer sided and before you come for me I still play both 50/50.
Anyone else feel the same?
New dbd is great don't get me wrong
Here is where we disagree.
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There we go. The long awaited post to kill off another decent survivor perk. I say decent, because it is far and away from overpowered. Unless you considere -5 seconds on a gen OP; in a game where a single kick can remove 25% off a gen progess.
It is well known that the Déjà vu buff is a bandaid fix for the 3-gen solution and now that a plausible solution is coming, I have this feeling that perhaps the speed buff should be reversed.
Do you have any source for that?
Sidenote: The 3 gen solution has basically no impact. Damaging a gen 8 times happens once every 1000 games or so.
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I never DC or kill myself on the hook. However, i can understand why they do it. Dead by Daylight became often times very frustrating for survivors, especially for solo players.
Instead of using all the available braincells on how to deny survivors the surrender option, why not puting the energy into making the game fun for survivors again? Mass suiciding survivors may be a strong indicator that the game is not fun for them anymore?
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@Peanits said:
It really depends on the person.
Some people are more competitively minded, and in their case, they might want to have a higher rating so the matchmaker gives them tougher opponents. Others are more casual and don't want the stress of those high end competitive matches. For them, going out of their way to increase their rating would be counterproductive. A higher rating would give them tougher matches and feel more punishing unless they play seriously.
At the end of the day, it's a number that tries to find you a roughly even match. A big part of the reason why we don't show it is because we don't want to pressure people into going out of their way to raise it. It's meant to adapt to you, not for you to adapt to it.
The problem i see is that probably many want chill rounds but are experienced / good enough to win frequently. I know this sounds like the opposite, but i really think it is here not the case.
I think that is why many would like to have MMR removed. The core playerbase of DBD is probably more into funny / goofy rounds then sweatfest.
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It is not a very strong perk, but the threat that the killer might have it makes it powerful.
I like that it exists.
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Imagine a Hall of Fame Horror Game ... and then the 2 goats (Myers, Freddy) are treated like the unwanted stepchildren 😥
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MMR is so strange.
Sometimes i get a lobby with 30k hours survivor, i win this game and the very next game is against beginners.
Also winning feels like no MMR impact at all. I lost 1 single game with Wekser so far (cant tell how many games, but it was the equivalent of 5 Million Bloodpoints) and i come across baby survivors who play like they have 50 hours.
Can we just have MMR removed and only focus on Pip please? It was better and much more fun back then.
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I only read the Discussion Titel and i already know i completly agree.
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Cool Character, nice license. Great voicelines. Overall very true to the character. From that perspective 10/10.
Gameplay not so amazing. He has the POTENTIAL to be great, even becoming the next Wesker, but as he is now, he needs a lot of changes. He leaves the survivors with very little to no counterplay with the Slize & Dize attack on most tiles, especially in combinition with scamper.
Slize and Dize miss cooldown is very short so there is little to no room for survivors to actually benefit from the killer mistake.
He is also very short, which is a part of him and completly fine, but at short loops, footsteps dont seem to be very accurate. Maybe it is a ping issue, i dont know, but it might need some look into it.
Overall: Cool character, problematic and often frustating power. S&D is hard or impossible to counter and even mistakes by the killer (missing S&D) gives the survivor little option to benefit from a killer mistake.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629329#Comment_3629329
A popularity of less then 5% tells pretty much nothing about the quality of a perk. According to that, Blastmine, Quick and Quiet, Flashbang, Iron Will and Self Care are great perks (they are not, rather C to F tier).
You don't think usage rate is an indicator of a perk being valuable? Sorry, that's just super wrong. Don't even know what to tell you.
The fact somebody picks the perk is 100% an indication of such.
I think it would be nice to have some extra Synergy with other perks. Makes the game more interesting. Agree to disagree.
There is no agreement between us to buff perks that don't need a buff. Not at all interested in buffing perks that are already above average. A neither interested in giving already fine perks even more advantageous synergies. Much Much Much rather just buff weaker perks than plan out synergies for them.
Spirit fury on its own is not good at all, so i am not "wrong" just because you feel that way. Apart from that, we were talking about synergy and Enduring is definitly boosting this perk without any doubt.
True, you are not wrong because I feel that way. You are wrong because Spirit Fury is absolutely fine on its own without enduring, for cutting off seconds of getting hit with a pallet its pretty damn good. That fact that its gets even better with the addition of more perk slots is nice but that isn't the end all or be all of that perk. The seconds you can shave of is undeniably useful.
You don't think usage rate is an indicator of a perk being valuable? Sorry, that's just super wrong. Don't even know what to tell you.
The fact somebody picks the perk is 100% an indication of such.
What do you mean? Are Iron will or Self Care now amazing (or even decent) perks? Or Blast mine? 😂 They have the same or even higher useage rate then Inner.
Also objectivly speaking, Inner is mediocre at best. The time it takes to get a heal off is roughly the same time you need to Selfcare yourself. Finding a totem, cleansing a totem, running to a locker, hiding inside of it. These are a lot of steps and a lot of time for a perk that is risky to use (Pentimento). The only positive thing about it is that is works very well against Sloppy. On the other hand it is insanly bad against UW (cleanse totem).
Apart from that, Self Care can be used as often as you want without any prep or dependency that a totem may be nearby. And you know what? Self Care is also pretty bad.
True, you are not wrong because I feel that way. You are wrong because Spirit Fury is absolutely fine on its own without enduring, for cutting off seconds of getting hit with a pallet its pretty damn good. That fact that its gets even better with the addition of more perk slots is nice but that isn't the end all or be all of that perk. The seconds you can shave of is undeniably useful.
Thats fine and it is your opinion. I personally would never run Spirit fury without enduring.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629198#Comment_3629198
Well sure, according to Nightlight, Inner Strength is like 23th most used Survivor Perk. This coupled with the fact that it allows healing without a team-mate makes it extra powerful only with a little skill on the Survivors part. I run it myself and its so good to be not reliant on team-mates. To buff Inner Strength at this point would require a good argument, which a hope to buff a Synergy isnt.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629202#Comment_3629202
yes, the Synergy is. but the Perk isn't and it does not need it. Buffing a Synergy dont make up for perks needing a buff and a strong perk most CERTAINLY dont need to be part of a good synergy aswell-
But you are also wrong about the perks, I use Spirit fury without enduring. Perks have to hold their own first and a synergy is is just a bonus onto those. inner strength dont need that bonus rn.
A popularity of less then 5% tells pretty much nothing about the quality of a perk. According to that, Blastmine, Quick and Quiet, Flashbang, Iron Will and Self Care are great perks (they are not, rather C to F tier).
I think it would be nice to have some extra Synergy with other perks. Makes the game more interesting. Agree to disagree.
Spirit fury on its own is not good at all, so i am not "wrong" just because you feel that way. Apart from that, we were talking about synergy and Enduring is definitly boosting this perk without any doubt.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628865#Comment_3628865
No improving one perk does not buff another. OR Surely you dont mean to say Inner Strength itself is underwhelming?
Ahm, yes of course it does exactly that. That is called synergy.
Spirit fury would be close to useless without Enduring. UW is strong on its own, but becomes a monster perk with Dead Mans switch. Self Care is pretty bad but is somewhat decent with Botany. Tanacity on its own is god aweful, but with power struggle and Unbreakable, it becomes really good. I could go on and on and on.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628770#Comment_3628770
but it cant hurt to create a synergy with another perk that is not that popular aswell.
absolutely incorrect, inner strength dont need a buff.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628778#Comment_3628778
point being buffing inner strength wont change that.
Would you kindly explain me, why you think that way? It is pretty weak compared to many other healing perks.
On top of that, the buff would not be that big. Using 2 perks slots and a lot of time (blessing and locker takes very long, and it is a one time thing) is even after the minor buff still questionable if this would make inner a strong perk or not.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628827#Comment_3628827
Well, I would only say that the SBMM was implemented in August of 2021, with October 2021 having the second highest peak in players in Steam (100.416 concurrent players) in the game story and in December of the same year was when the game went free in Epic. Meaning the data we have supports my theory that was around that time the player base of the game got bigger.
Between that and the Ranks system being implemented directly into the game, which would have given even more reason to play hardcore than an invisible system that new players don't even know exist, I maintain my theory and claim that the SBMM had nothing to do with the rise of tryhards in the game and would had being even worst with the old system.
But if you still believe it had, that's your opinion and I respect it.
So it got bigger temporarly, and then? It droped. Why would we pinpoint towards SBMM in relation to high playerbase when we can also pinpoint on great licence, good marketing or simply.. corona lockdowns? Those reasons sound way more likely for the increase of playerbase. We should rather ask the question: Why did the playerbase drop from there on? Why do people loose interest in the game? What is your theory on that matter. Mine is pretty close to the video, thats why i used it as a reference.
Like i said, i dont think SBMM is the only issue overall. Maps, bad killer design and overall questionable decisions in the last few years all took part of what may be bad for the player base in the long run.
EDIT: I want to ask you a few questions about SBMM, since you think it is not the reason people became (pretty aprupt) way more tryhard.
Do you think a system that encourages tryhard playstyle (SBMM is clearly that in comparison to Bloodpoints and old ranking system) does not have impact on the playstyle of people?
Do you think, if there would not be any form of ranking system, people would play more chill / meme more?
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Ace because he is quiet and has some of the most goofy outfits.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628607#Comment_3628607
First, you also missed the point of what I said. I don't know how you can even claim that I'm "very far away from the truth" when you didn't even addressed the main point of it. Like I said to @C3Tooth, re-read what I said and don't take it so literally.
Second, your argument makes no sense because chase and anti-loop are not the same thing (Nemesis have anti-loop power, but not a chase power) but you are comparing them both. One of the main reasons of Knight being hated is precisely that his zone denial prevents you from looping him for long. Blight, on the other hand, is strong at chase but doesn't have pretty good anti-loop capabilities beyond breaking pallets with his rush for longer that you would by just kicking it and maybe going around some sorter loops, unless you spent copious amounts of time dominating the bugginess of the collision system and start doing hug techs.
In other words, it doesn't have anything to do with what I really said in the first place, but if it did, you would be proving me right. And to answer your question is: None of those two killers are "beloved" by the community, just one more hated than the other. I can even argue that I had seen more petitions to nerf Blight than to nerf Knight.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628587#Comment_3628587
If you are right, the question here is how something that only works in the backend, is not mention in game once, most people even today doesn't know is a thing and doesn't affect gameplay at all can have that effect in the playerbase. The reasonable answer here is: It doesn't, and never did. People don't stop blaming the SBMM for the rise of "sweatiness" of the game maybe because it implementation coincided with a rise on the player base or something, but this is most than probably just a false cause.
In my opinion, the rise of "sweatiness" is just the natural effect of the game being a competitive PvP game by design that people would play to win, even if some insist in call it a "party" game just because that was the intention of the dev team at the start. In other words, just as what happened with Super Smash Brothers: Sakurai wanted people to play the game as a 4 player party fighting game with items, but at the end of the day it was a fighting game so people played it 1v1 to win like any other fighting game.
In short, I don't think that the implementation of the SBMM had anything to do with that, or that they changing it would change the fact that people will play the game to win. Hell, you can even argue that what Ranks was before they transformed it in Grades is even more a proper SBMM system that what it is now in the game, with it's brackets, it's in game ranks and seasonal reset included. Add some initial positional ranked games at the start of the season to the old system and it would not differ much of what games like Overwatch do (did? I stopped playing even before the whole "2" fiasco).
TL;DR: Even if BHVR implementation of a SBMM leaves much to be desired, it has little to do with the community getting more "tryhard" and it would had happened even with the old system (if not more, even if just to see that Iri 1 rank on the menu).
TL;DR: Even if BHVR implementation of a SBMM leaves much to be desired, it has little to do with the community getting more "tryhard" and it would had happened even with the old system (if not more, even if just to see that Iri 1 rank on the menu).
I think this is not the case, because we have been there and we noticed the difference. Like i said , the day it went live, people changed. Many became more sweaty, others followed over time. Both sides by the way.
People strive for what is optimal. The only way to gain MMR is to play effective, so they do. Before that, opimal was 2 pips and gain a lot of bloodpoints. It was not exactly optimal to tunnel 1 person out of the game but rather 12 hook while pressure gens.
I would step further and argue that if SBMM and pip ranking would be removed tomorrow, so only Bloodpoints are the "win condition", most would focus on Bloodpoint builds and bloodpoint focus playstyles.
You are in my opinion right that SBMM is not the only thing why it is the way it is, but it had a major roll.
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@Emeal said:
The reason boons are underwhelming isnt because they lack synergy with Inner Strength. Its mostly because they are too difficult to use, You dont need to buff one of the Survivors strongest perks and hope that makes boons more viable.
bHVR just need to take a big critical look at boons and make gameplay related changes to them.
It wont be the saving grace for boon perks, but it cant hurt to create a singery with another perk that is not that popular aswell.
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@slowestratintherace said:
As Survivor: My build focuses on healing and rescuing fellow survivors from hooks. I’m a sneaky survivor, good at out-maneuvering the killer, and an excellent rescuer. Sometimes, there is only me and one other survivor left, and they get hooked. I am often able to rescue them. Sometimes we both live. If it looks like only one of us will live, I will sacrifice myself for the other survivor to live. When the killer gets little to no hooks or gets no kills at all, I will often let them hook or even kill me out of pity and to be a good sport.
Moving forward: My build will focus on self-preservation. I will no longer unhook nor heal anyone but myself. I will not run from killers. I will continue working on generators when they attack me. If they down and hook me, so be it. I’ll try my best to unhook myself and get right back on that generator as quickly as possible. My goal has shifted from saving other survivors and myself to working on gens and getting through the exit as fast as possible.
As Killer: I count hooks. No survivor will die until every survivor has two hooks already. Once every survivor has two hooks, I kill two survivors. The remaining two are spared. If they understand they have the option to live, I’ll even lead them to toolboxes and generators.
Moving forward: I will tunnel, slug, and camp at every opportunity. Every hatch will be slammed shut.
I don’t think I will be providing as much enjoyment to other players in the game as I was before. There will be many games with no survivors except me. Instead of playing as an altruist, I will be mercilessly selfish. I will probably provide context regarding my decision to make these changes, but not until after I get a clear answer.
I know that many people disagree with these play-styles, but they don’t break any rules, as far as I know. Would these new playstyles violate bannable rules and get me banned? Do my reasons or motivations for making these changes affect my eligibility to be banned?
And a related question: Some of my current actions could be seen as "working with the other side." Allowing killer to kill me. Allowing survivors to escape, etc. Are these bannable actions?
Assuming I will only get answers from other players, is there somewhere on this site I can get clear answers from an official BHVR representative? I read the rules, but some of them are vague and very open to interpretation. I need to know specific boundaries, so I may stay within them.
I did not come here to learn your opinions. I did not come here to argue. I will provide context, but one thing at a time.
Playing like a "not exactly nice" killer or being the most useless teammate in DBD history might be aweful for everyone else, but you definitly cant be banned for that.
May i ask why you changed from a decent player to what you are now?
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628510#Comment_3628510
Do you want to know why they are trying to make every killer better at chase (with loops obviously being the chase extender per excellence)?
Because survivors don't stop saying that chase and interaction with the killer is the fun part of playing survivor, while doing gens is the boring part, and BHVR is trying to do whatever it takes so they don't have to simply make generators take longer (i.e. the healing nerf alongside the regression nerf) even if gen getting repaired too fast is a problem for killers. With this in mind, the best solution is simply make chases shorter, so they don't have to make gens take longer. Technically, it should be a win-win for everybody: Survivors get more chases and interaction with killers while killers don't get that much affected by gen repair times being low without having to make longer what survivors claim is the worst part of their gameplay.
But apparently what survivors meant by "chase is the fun part" obviously was "being chased for 5 gens while having advantage in loops is the fun part", not "having more chases in the game and having to really be good at mindgaming and wasting the killers time is the fun part".
So, here we are, with content creators now claiming that "anti-loop" is the problem with the game without asking themselves why every killer is getting better at chase and anti-looping.
Running a baby killer for 5 gens around in The game by predroping every pallet is not nearly as fun and interactive as 60 seconds chase against a strong Hillbilly on Gasheaven. It has not that much to do with the lenght of a chase but rather the quality.
Keep in mind the most fun killers are actually also strong chase killers, but not definitive anti loop / free hit killers. Those killers can, when played well get kills faster then free hit killers like Knight or Dull Merchant. Yet, they are the <3 ones.
I am sorry but this makes me a little bit baffled that some players assume such things. Your assumtions are very far away from the truth, sorry.
Who is the more powerful killer: Blight or Knight?
Who is more beloved by survivors: Blight or Knight?
Answering this questions by yourself should already be a strong indicator why arguments like these cant have much truth in it.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628266#Comment_3628266
This is a slippery slope. If you give survivors counterplay in every situation (meaning killers can never guarantee hits), then you basically give them unlimited chances to make a right play and counter the killer. But it should be closer to "whoever plays better will have the upper hand in chase" with the scale leaning towards the killer because they have to go for multiple chases (sweet spot is about 10-12), if they want to win. A mistake should put you in a bad position.
Against many killers this is the case. But against others, the worst thing that's going to happen is that you need to leave the loop or drop the pallet sooner, which isn't really a huge detriment because you have so many resources to work with.
That being said, I do agree that there are some killers that really take away the back and forth of the chase. Trickster, Hag (different play style but still) and Slog Merchant come to mind. This isn't good either. It takes away the interactivity from the only part of the game that is actually interactive.
I'm inclined to agree with you that a killer that is primarily anti loop is not fine but then what is Huntress? Her power certainly counts as an anti loop and she doesn't have anything else either (arguably she has map pressure thanks to snipes but even in lower skill lobbies she is not an issue). Yet she is not usually considered a badly designed killer. The same goes for Nemesis and Bubba.
I'm inclined to agree with you that a killer that is primarily anti loop is not fine but then what is Huntress? Her power certainly counts as an anti loop and she doesn't have anything else either (arguably she has map pressure thanks to snipes but even in lower skill lobbies she is not an issue). Yet she is not usually considered a badly designed killer. The same goes for Nemesis and Bubba.
The reason Huntress is a well designed killer is interactive gameplay. I dont see how Huntress is the anti loop killer, since she actually can be looped. Survivors can use terrain, loops, unique pathing and pretty much any other form of chase related stuff. Yet, she is still strong and the definition of skill expression. A strong huntress is scary and powerful, but still fair (if the RNG allows fairness).
We can not exactly say this about the killers mentioned in the Video.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/402650/12-minutes-of-everything-wrong-with-dbd
SBMM sucks the fun out of the game.
Wrong. SBMM prevents people like Choy, Hens or Otz from destroy new players with their high level gameplay, nothing more. This would be like a professional athlete complaining that they can not play an official game against an highschool team as playing with other teams of the league is "too sweaty". Also, no matter what system you would use to matchmaking, you won't stop people to play to win (or "sweaty" or "hardcore" or whatever buzzword you want to use) in a competitive PvP game.
Now, the way SBMM is implemented in DbD, now that's a point worth discussing. In other games, with proper brackets, ranks and mode, it would be nearly impossible for a new player to face a max ranked player unless they played in a mode where there is no SBMM (usually called "casual game" or "player game"). That's not what happens in DbD, as basically every player above average is in the same bracket when they reach 1600 MMR, meaning you can basically face someone with 20K hours played and 2200 MMR when you have 200 and just have entered the bracket.
That's the problem with DbD's SBMM, not SBMM itself.
In theory, you have a solid argument. In practice, the SBMM created a problem to solve something that was not an issue anyway. Maybe an issue, but nobody had a problem with it because it worked. My beginner/noob me and also friends and communities i am around never had a matchmaking problem at that time.
On the other hand, the day SBMM got implemented, people changed from chill to tryhard, and it has not stoped ever since. I completly agree with what Choy says about this in his video.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628322#Comment_3628322
Old Legion simply had no gameplay. You just waited when mechanic does work for you and survivor just can't do anything about it. You can't say it about any current killer.
Old SM wasn't a healthy design, but at least there was some gameplay against her. I can say, it was even entertaining show, when some comp SWF tried to outplay her strategically. She was called Chess Merchant for a reason.
And Chase Merchant never was a problem at all, just most boring variant of "leave a loop".
Old Legion had pretty much the same gameplay as the killers we are talking about.
I remember in the days this argument also poped up for old Legion, i can only hope in a few years, we can say the same about artist, DM, Knight ect.
"chase" Merchant is arguable on, if not the worst of the worst.
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@Rudjohns said:
Yes, it should activate by blessing as well
but still make it 5 times use max, which means blessing a totem activates it, but you can't cleanse the same totem to activate it again
As i mentioned, it should be a one time thing. Otherwise, it would be a bit overpowered.
- "New Effect added on top: Blessing a Dull Totem the first time also activates Inner Strenght."
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628257#Comment_3628257
But that's the thing, he's just saying that it needs fundamental changes, he doesn't come up with any ideas on how that should be done, only pointing out that it needs changes, saying ''fix these issues'' is not giving solutions.
It may be the devs job to fix things, but there is a reason feedback & suggestions exist, which is to provide feedback and ideas on how to fix and improve issues exactly like maps and sbmm, however as stated before, it's kinda hard to change things like maps when the community are not in an agreement on what a good map design standard is to begin with.
He does not, probably for the same reason i have not added any solutions to that matter, because this will be a serious wall of text and a lot of work. And it will still only cover the survace.
The issue is, the game is already so deep in trouble (fundamentaly) that it will be extremly hard to get out of it.
How do you change a map when you have a killer like Pig and a killer like Knight in the same game? Or Nurse? Or Skull Merchant? Its at the current state litteraly impossible to come up with something decent.
The argument in the video might be a little bit dramatic saying that this is the beginning of the end of DBD, but he has some strong points. When the best licenses we had in years actually lower the playerbase, something has to be done for sure. And his optinion makes sense, at least in my mind.
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@fussy said:
are designed for not only anti loop but basically guaranteed hits over timeAnd? What's wrong with it? You should get hits in the game where killer should give hits. I know many players expect to run killer 5 gens by predropping and tbing in every pallet, but fortunately it's not DBD years 2016-2019.
Balance of the game is built around a 45-second chase, but for some reason some players are sure that they should be able to prolong the chase as long as they want, as long as there are resources on the map.
Nobody expects to run the killer for 5 gens, unless the survivor is much better then the killer. Then it should be the case. Skill expression is actually a thing.
And? What's wrong with it?
Becaue of gameplay reasons? Its a video game. Why asking this strange question?