thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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@pemberley said:
Claudette is hands down the best survivor for new players.
I’m seeing a lot of discussion about how self care is bad and teaches bad habits but you’re saying that from a mountain of experience and a mountain of medkits. New survivors have neither.
I remember being a new player and I felt so lost, vulnerable, and scared if I got injured and my friend died. Self care gives new players confidence in surviving as an alone wolf and it gives solo veterans the assurance heals are always available.
Botany AND Empathy are both really good for beginners because unlike Bond, Empathy is map wide and provides the survivor with knowledge of where the killer might be. Botany is great all around but especially handy against Sloppy Butcher - a popular generic perk - and it encourages the survivors to want to support their team. I remember being a newbie and I was TERRIBLE at gens but I felt I could contribute by being the healer.
Tldr; Claudette is by far the best because ALL of her perks are useful for beginners that allow them to survive on their own and she is not locked behind a paywall. David is one of the worst to pick up first because he is NOT noob friendly.
Learning stealth play is valid and it teaches the foundation of the game. When players get more experience, then they can start playing more boldly. Trying to shoehorn new players into the run’n’gun play style kills the fear of dbd quicker (I miss the days I was SCARED to play dbd as survivor) and it might outright even discourage them from playing altogether if they run around and get hooked to death off the bat because they don’t know how that style works yet.
Claud doesn't teach you stealth though. She's like automatically a stealth survivor because she's hard to see. Like I've chased Clauds where they literally just disappear right in front of me, and at no skill of the person playing. She just blends in with certain objects. She's a chameleon.
Again playing Claud will teach you bad habits because you think you can just hide any where at any time, when in reality you can only do that with Claud. If you want to actually learn to play stealthy you'd need to play a character that isn't invisible to begin with.
She might be an effective character at low ranks but you definitely aren't going to get better playing her compared to other survivors.
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Snares > Pallets
Honestly dream pallets are a gimmick and are super easy to play around. He is limited to where he can place them and if you don't fall for it you basically just removed half his power. Plus they have a lot of hard counters. Small Game will warn you of a dream pallet. Maps that reveal killer belongings will show their auras. Or you could just make an effort to remember which pallets are real when you are awake, and stick to using window loops while asleep.
Snares on the other hand are harder to avoid even if you know they are there, and can be used anywhere at any time, no limits. They are more consistent. And they can actually break loops unlike dream pallets which won't change a damn thing if they loop a real pallet.
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@RaginRendon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/662061#Comment_662061
Holding m1 isn’t a difficult task, so newbies are most likely gonna have this happen to them as well.
I mean, from my experience on my second account until you hit green ranks you rarely ever see 2 gens pop at once. At red ranks all 5 gens will be done in under 5 minutes. Brown/yellow ranks definitely do not do gens that fast.
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@RaginRendon No the skill checks only get harder when you do gens too fast. New players don't do gens fast and therefore shouldn't trigger the more difficult skill checks. It's only going to take effect if the gens are done too fast, which only happens with experienced players.
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African American Water
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@MegMain98 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/661708#Comment_661708
Spirit needs add-ons to have effective map pressure AND chase potential. At base I think she can only go 32 meters with her power and has to wait 15 seconds to cooldown. Hag can just keep teleporting to traps if survivors step in them. Hag has high chase potential and map pressure if she herds survivors to her traps. Spirit cannot use her power to traverse the map AND chase at the same time without add-ons, Hag can. Spirit is still arguably better, but Hag has better map control.
Nothing needs to be said about Billy and Nurse’s map pressure. Nurse still suffers a little bit without add-ons if the map is large. She goes faster than Billy but she can only go so far. Omega blink however puts Billy to shame.
5 seconds at 7.04m/s equals 35.2m, which means if she sees you with BBQ she can't reach you with phase walk unless she has add-ons.
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I can imagine going out to a bar one night, getting completely hammered and going home with some chick. Wake up next morning and it's Nea.
Now THAT is terrifying.
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It's dumb, but rank also doesn't mean as much as it does in other games. It's very possible that the red ranks were boosted, or the green ranks were red rank players that just haven't ranked up yet.
Just take the L and move on. No use getting upset about it.
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@Carlosylu said:
Depends on platform:
PC: Nurse, Spirit, Freddy, Hillbillie, Huntress
Xbox: Spirit, Trapper, Freddy, Huntress and Doctor
PS4: I don't know
Rank 2 killer, Rank 4 survivor btw
LOL no Trapper and Doc are not strong killers on Xbox. Trapper is very common at high ranks but he's not that effective. Doc is a joke IMO.
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Nurse
Billy/Spirit
Hag/Huntress/Freddy
I know that's 6 but the last 3 are pretty close IMO.
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Probably because the devs realized it's better for offerings to just take you to that map than have an increased chance to do it. You could use one of those offerings and not even get the map you wanted which is lame. Also they made a lot of clutter in blood webs.
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/661641#Comment_661641
"Eyball perks are garbo... for experience players. For newbies though they can actually make a huge difference. Kindred, Deja Vu, Dark Sense... all the perks are FREE and give the survivor information that can help them learn the game and get better."
i'm sorry but no.. the only eyeball perk that is even remotely useful is kindred, but it only is useful if you are trying to convince worthless teammates to maybe feel bad enough to come get you from the hook. people will tell you constantly (as they tell me) "if you don't want to get left on a hook, bring Kindred, problem solved. to that i ask why they think it's okay for me to have to bring an extra perk for them to maybe convince them to play the game if it feels like it's safe enough..
if you are legitimately talking about new players, i think we have enough current players that are super bad & the last thing i would ever want to do is "encourage" them to get their feet wet in a manner that encourages them follow in the footsteps of the lousy.
the game is very easy to play when you don't rely too heavily on information you're not supposed to have.
deja vu shows you 3 closest gens when a gen is started.. do you not consider it to be better if the survivor gets used to exploring the map and locating? focusing them toward the generators and giving them a direction of where to go immediately now that you finished this one lowers their likeliness of looking, exploring, and learning and turns the experience into one that's more like a race where much information and experience is just totally lost on the individual.
dark sense shows where the killer is when you pop a gen, essentially saying "don't run that way and you're good.." i don't need to be told what areas to avoid, as it is much better being able to see with your eyes what is going on. if i'm encouraged to avoid the killer completely, i eternally get freaked out when the killer is nearby.
too much emphasis is placed on the avoidance of the killer (in real world experience) and not enough information is given letting people know that avoiding the killer takes a combination of a little bit of what you hear and a whole lot of what you see.. it's totally okay to be right next to the killer working on a generator.. you get way more points and you get to watch other people do the looping and the taking of hits and it's a super dope show you would have missed if you weren't there to actually see it..
when people bring kindred they reveal the location of the killer to other survivors. other survivors will use this information as confirmation whenever possible that they are off-the-hook and don't need to go rescue you because they can see the killer is kinda over there still a little bit, kinda, maybe.. guess we'll keep working on the gens and say "sorry he camped you" at the end.. people need to understand that not only is camping part of the game, but so is BREAKING A CAMP, something you will never be able to do while running and hiding from the information you receive from eyeball or other general-freak-out perks..
giving a person perks to make them even more scared than they need to be is never a good idea, period, making eyeball perks complete garbage and, in essence, a whammy.
Dude what the hell are you talking about.
Eyeball perks are very good for new players. Deja Vu shows them where gens are so they can learn how gens spawn and so they can never have a situation where they can't find a gen. Dark Sense is like a worse version of Alert, but given that new players have no idea how to track a killer any sort of aura reading on the killer will help immensely.
Also having Kindred is not going to guarantee you get saved. Your chances are better but I've still seen instances where people were left on a hook to die when they had Kindred. WGLF however will almost guarantee you get saved. Like I said I'd rather die on my third hook from a semi-farming session where we trade hooks than die on first hook because everyone was too scared to make a save and/or had no incentive to do so.
A good chunk of the free perks are very good for new players. They help them with some of the things they need most. Once you get better at the game they aren't going to help as much.
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@HatCreature said:
I don't mind SWF, 2 mans are ok, 3 and up is too much, that kind of communication against a Killer that is not designed to create map pressure i.e every Killer except the top tier Killers struggle to handle those teams.
As RaginRendon up there said
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660567#Comment_660567
This is correct, if Survivors had more to do besides Gens then SWF teams wouldn't be so powerful. If they had more to pay attention to besides holding M1 on a Gen and not get found then they would have less of an impact no matter how they talk to each other. This is why totems exist but totems aren't good enough.
We need alternate Objectives to spread the Survivors thin and make their teamwork more meaningful and in-depth, not just centered around saving and doing Gens because that's EASY, playing Survivor is easy. Of course I have only had time to make it to Rank 7 but if it's easy only up until that rank then the odds will say Survivor is still easy. And if it is too easy for 3 people to do 3 Gens while 1 Survivor is being chased then the Gens need to be fixed and that will help Killers with SWF as well.
A second objective is the wrong path here. You won't get the results you want. Good survivors will just find ways to rush this new objective, while new survivors will have even MORE to learn and play around. The effects of a second objective would be disproportionate.
What would make a better impact would be to just limit the max speed at which a gen can be done. Right now, if you have 3 survivors on a gen with toolboxes that's like a 25 second gen. That's insane. Should NEVER happen. Really, 50 seconds should be the absolute limit to how fast a gen can be done. Doesn't matter how many survivors are on it, if they have toolboxes/perks, whatever. You should never be able to do faster than 50 seconds.
Another option would be to increase the difficulty of doing gens too quickly. Something like a meter that fills as gens are repaired/completed. The more the meter is filled, the harder and more frequent the skill checks will be. Then have some method of reducing the meter either by waiting or doing some specific actions to reduce it. Now survivors have the option to rush gen as they did before, but it will be significantly harder to do the faster they do it. And since it's a feature that would only apply to gens being done too fast, low rank survivors would basically be immune to the effects as they shouldn't do gens fast enough to trigger this mechanic.
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Most killers complain about SWF because they aren't as good as they think. A lot of killers will cry "SWF!" when in fact it was just 4 good solo survivors. The reality is that most of the killers in red ranks are boosted.
Hell I had a Freddy yesterday DC the moment I used DH to get distance to a pallet. He swung, missed, I dropped the pallet and kept running (it was an unsafe pallet) and he just immediately DC's. I message him "really dude?" and he said "if 1 person has DH you all do". Like for real this guy couldn't play against a single perk, you think he's gonna admit defeat in any context? No. Probably not.
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@Mochan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660851#Comment_660851
You talk of Urban Evasion teaching bad habits, but the perk that teaches the most bad habits is We're Gonna Live Forever.
How many generations of farmers have grown up on WGLF again?
Please, don't use that sorry argument as reasoning against Urban Evasion.
Except WGLF was changed to stop farming. Now that it requires a safe rescue it actually teaches you good habits, like saving someone such that they don't get caught right after the save.
@Mochan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660925#Comment_660925
Just because you use Urban Evasion, doesn't mean you don't know how to run around the map.
What kind of silly thinking is that?
I have a 1000 hours and I still use Urban Evasion. I use it to EVADE not to crabwalk around the map. I know when to run and when to sneak.
I'm sorry it was hard for you, but there are people who didn't have that problem with UE and learned how to play properly within the first 50 hours even with Urban.
It's funny how you talk about how WGLF objectively encourages good habits, that's just wrong, and certainly it wasn't true back when WGLF wasn't nerfed to only work on safe unhooks. Today it's better after nerf, but the perk still tempts you to dive save, or do protection hits when you shouldn't just to get stacks.
Just like you were able to learn good habits with WGLF, there are people who learn good habits with Urban Evasion. A lot of people legitimately use it to juke and stealth, not to crabwalk all over.
If you have played the game for a while you might know when to run around the map. If you just started the perk teaches you to crouch walk everywhere.
And sorry but even good players know that UE is a wasted perk slot. It just does nothing beneficial you can't already do yourself (hide from the killer). It has a few specific uses but that's it.
@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660997#Comment_660997
"served with stuff to help them learn the game like Deja Vu or Premonition. "
please don't ever say things like this in reference to being good in any manner.
just don't.
eyeball perks are garbage.. they're whammies, period.
as for premonition, please allow me to nutshell it for you:
some more advanced users may not use it like this (maybe??), but definitely for new players:
once every XX seconds, if the killer is within range, you hear a noise and see a blinking thing. this tells you the killer is "coming" so you should stop what you are doing immediately and go find somewhere to hide.. you stay there until there is no more heartbeat and then you creep out and slowly make your way back to what you were doing, but then PREMONITION goes off and the killer is "coming" so you better just stop, turn around, and go hide..
when we say the killer is "coming", of course we mean the killer is kinda over in maybe that direction somewhat, at an angle maybe? also, guess what.. the killer is always kinda over in maybe that direction somewhere within every XX seconds anyway.. this doesn't mean he is actually "coming", nor that it would ever be a good idea to stop what you're doing and slowly move away to hide.
more likely than not, the killer is chasing me not far from you and everything is good.. keep doing what you're doing, get your bonus BP for doing it so closely within the terror radius..
a much better alternative (and keep in mind this whole post is about a new player starting the game) would be spine chill. it has no cooldown so it works all of the time. it encourages people to keep doing what they're doing while within the terror radius by offering multiple indicators. the first indicator lets you know when the killer is within a certain range, but it also rewards you with an action speed boost if you keep working on what you are working on.
a second indicator lets you know when the killer is looking at you. if it remains lit, the killer is coming directly towards you (or standing still looking in your direction for some reason). a third indicator appears to let you know its time to get the hell outta there immediately..
best of all: these 3 indicators show up and are easiest to see if you are performing an action, right above and integrated to the action's progress bar, so it's in your best interest to keep working on something in order to see what's happening..
oh yeah.. and did we mention that it too is a perk that is automatically unlocked for everyone?
Eyball perks are garbo... for experience players. For newbies though they can actually make a huge difference. Kindred, Deja Vu, Dark Sense... all the perks are FREE and give the survivor information that can help them learn the game and get better.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660938#Comment_660938
I'm sorry, but I just strongly disagree. You have better chances of getting people to do gens than make saves. Also, you almost never see WGLF getting 3 stacks within 5secs. Something like that requires the that the new player make the save, then body block you, and that both the safe unhook and protection scoring events proc. We know exactly what makes safe unhook proc and how long it takes. We've spent literal years body blocking each other only for the protection even not to work properly.
When I think about what is best for beginners I think about what can be used to make them learn and do the core objectives of the game. Prove Thyself, Bond, and Leader teach them the core concepts of working as a team to complete gens. WGLF teaches players to take calculated high risk/high reward actions. I find it more important to teach them that making saves is just as important as doing gens before you introduce a bonus incentive to the concept. We've watched it happen in the past with the older version WGLF. People at low ranks ran it and weren't learning to calculated risks. They were just obsessed with getting stacks. Even with the game dictating safer play to get stacks people will still show more concern for the stack than the player. If they even get a tinge of a feeling that they can't get the stack they will not go near that hook.
Another thing I would add is that new players don't know how to bodyblock and are too scared to bodyblock of their own free will. The moment they think they're in danger they take off in any direction that doesn't have a chasing killer in it. You have to literally force them into bodyblocking for you. At that point though the only thing that comes out of it is mistrust and a potential dc.
"You have better chances of getting people to do gens than make saves."
Which is why you want a perk to encourage survivors to make saves. WGLF does that.
As for the 3 tokens thing, I was making the point that it can happen. And in all likelihood, if the WGLF guy is rushing the save they will probably go down during the unhook which is an extra token.
@Marcus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660950#Comment_660950
I already said Self Care should be used together with Botany Knowledge, which you can if you level up Claudette. SC + BK isn't that slow and it gives more benefits than healing yourself ( faster healing, longer Medkits ).
I never said anything about Urban Evasion, that perk is [BAD WORD] against any killer, even against Hag ( maybe not against bad Hags, but good Hags don't fall for it ), so stop bringing it in this discussion.
Yeah, and the killers at low ranks tend to camp, so WGLF can teach survivors to suicide for their stacks. And if everyone is running WGLF, that means everyone will chase the killer untill he downs someone, so they can get their stack before someone else. In that case, nobody will do any gen.
So bring 2 perks when you could just bring an item that does it all better anyway? Sorry no. Those 2 perk slots would be better served with stuff to help them learn the game like Deja Vu or Premonition. Granted new players won't have much to work with anyway, it's still silly to use 2 perks when an item is superior.
"In that case, nobody will do any gen." Nobody does gens at low ranks anyway. So would you rather die on your first hook and get nothing, or die on your third hook and get a ton of BP from WGLF and rescues?
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Blindness affects all aura reading. If they have OOO and you hit them with something something Blindness, then won't be able to see you but you can still see them.
GF>Myers IMO because GF can do both stealth and one shot at the same time. Myers is easier to play and has more variety to his add-ons though.
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Regarding the first question, targeted harassment is something that happens over the course of many games where a player goes out of their way to ruin the experience of another usually at the cost of throwing the game. It's very different from the usually tunnel/camp experience, as you will have a history with this player. It's not something that you can get in trouble for in a single game.
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Yes it does.
All aura reading works on Freddy like any other killer after his update.
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Depends on your rank.
At purple/red ranks you will need to probably take a few "normal" chases where you don't mark a survivor otherwise you won't get enough Chaser/Malicious to score in those emblems for a double pip (which is basically what the adept killer achievements are now).
Another option could be that you just hit survivors you don't have a lot of stalk on just to slow down the game and get more Chaser.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660950#Comment_660950
Im pretty sure the bad habit theyre refering to isnt JUST unhooking teammates, but rather making sure you unhook them FIRST. The importance at that point isnt the safety of the unhook, but that you beat your teammates to it.
Well that was the whole reason the "safe rescue" clause was added, to stop farming.
And having all 3 survivors rush to unhook you is a way better option to no one coming to save you and you just die on your first hook.
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@oxygen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660665#Comment_660665
This right here.
Private/friends only profiles are common anyway among all sorts of players, and partially private profiles that hide certain elements like playtime and/or friends list makes it even more common if we include that. After the improvement to Steam's privacy options that's a while ago now it's so common that anyone that dodge any degree of private profile will spend the vast majority of their time in the lobby anyway.
No matter what "benefits" profile-checking allows for it also makes it possible to have cringy grudges with people which shouldn't be a thing.
I know multiple players on Xbox that have private profiles and change their GT regularly purely because everyone knows everyone and people dodge, or worse play super toxic and tunnel/camp specific survivors.
If you could just see the character and item that's all you need as killer to make decisions (really just the item, but sometimes the character can give it away).
Also lock survivors into their builds at 10 seconds to stop last second switching. I hate that BS.
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@Marcus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660867#Comment_660867
Every perk can teach you bad habits IMO.
WGLF can teach you to prioritize saves over gens and literally to fight with each other for the saves, so you can get your stacks. Also, new players won't understand what safe unhooks means, so they might still farm their teammates.
Dead Hard will teach you at low ranks that if you use it just when the killer is behind you, he will miss no matter what, so when you will reach high ranks, you will start to believe that Dead Hard is useless, because killers don't fall for it there. Also, Dead Hard won't help you even if the killer miss the swing, because they catch up in 2 seconds.
New survivors walk all the match, so that's why Sprint Burst is good for them, to get a head start if the killer find them. After survivors learn how to run tiles, but will probably want to replace SB, but untill then, this perk can help them to put distance between them and the killer. SB is also very good against Wraith and Billy, pretty common killers in low ranks. DH is serve you no purpose if you get instant downed.
Also, Adrenaline doesn't teach you to not heal the whole match, I see plenty of survivors healing even if they run Adrenaline. And the fact that Adrenaline lets you to rush the last gen even injured is a good thing. It teachs you to have more balls in these situational, when there is 1 gen to be completed and you are injured.
Healing with Self Care isn't too slow if you combine it with Botany Knowledge. @thesuicidefox keep saying Medkits are better, but Medkits will be a very limited source for new players, they won't have many of them and they might want to run other items as well. Nowhere in the description of the perk is said "you need to run in a corner of the map to be able to heal", new players need to learn when and where to use Self Care. Of course, they can give up on it later, but for a new player it's still a good perk.
While you could argue that prioritizing saves over gens can be a "bad habit" generally speaking it's not. It's only a bad idea when you REALLY need to do the gen, or the killer is camping, or stuff like that. In most cases, you want to go make the save, as making the save is infinitely better than not making the save.
However, perks like Urban Evasion and Self Care will have actual negative impacts on your performance. Self Care is slow AF and just wastes time usually. It's way better to just let others heal you. Yea, medkits can be scarce for new players, but it opens a perk slot and is faster than the Self Care perk. UE just makes you think you should crouch walk ALL the time, which is a waste of time. You never learn how to properly stealth a killer and just end up slowly moving around the map at times when you should be running.
It's one thing to already understand the game and use these perks, it's another when you use them while learning the game because they teach you to be inefficient, which then trickles down as you learn more of the game to a point where you basically have to relearn how to do stuff sometimes. This is bad because habits are hard to break. You will spend more time relearning the game than you would have just biting the bullet and taking a more difficult path.
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@ReikoMori said:
Dead Hard isn't as beginner friendly as it seems and WGLF requires people to be smart and low rank rank players make more hook farms than safe saves. So it isn't as if they are going to get the value out of the perk consistently enough.
The best beginner survivor is Dwight. Dwight gives you perks that incentivize learning the key portions of the game without making you take a lot of risk. He offers prove thyself which gets people to do gens with other teammates. It has bond which can help new players keep track of and understand when they are getting too far away from the team. It also has leader which means that while they are still basically playing buddy system in low ranks the other person is getting a boost to pretty much every action they take.
David, has beginner traps like No Mither, which is just there to make the game harder for more experienced players. Dead Hard is one of the best exhaustion perks in the game. Yet, only when it is used correctly and confidently. You can not panic when you dead hard or you will still just get hit. Low ranks don't have good understanding of running loops and Dead Hard does nothing to teach them. They end up leaning on it to save them when better movement in general would have been better.
Just like how low rank players don't get the full value out of Sprint Burst even if you explain to them how to do it properly. Kate also has a high tier beginner perk in Windows of Opportunity. Learning map layout improves every other movement based skill a survivor has. Knowing where palettes are lets them learn how to route themselves.
You can still get WGLF tokens by taking hits, which would be rather common for attempting unsafe rescues, as you will likely get hit, make the save, then go down, 2 tokens and if the killer decides to hook you right away (which they almost always do at low ranks in this scenario) you just got 3 tokens in 5 seconds.
The problem at low ranks is no one saves. NO ONE. You just sit on the hook and die because people are afraid to save. Beginners might not always get a safe rescue, but they will at least ATTEMPT the rescue. It pushes them to take that risk. Once they do it right and see "oh that's how it works" then they can more consistently make safer rescues.
Like I said about Prove Thyself/Leader... survivors don't do gens at low ranks, and they especially don't do gens together. The moment, and I mean the EXACT FRAME where a heartbeat can be heard low ranks will run off. You will hardly every get benefit from these perks at low ranks because other survivors won't cooperate.
As for DH, yea it's not very beginner friendly but if you use it like an on-demand Sprint Burst that's still going to help in a chase, which is where newbies have the most trouble, and again no perk will help them here. If anything, you want to get DH for when you play the game more and such that you can make full use of it. Hence why I said David is the best starter because WGLF automatically puts him above EVERYONE. It encourages good habits and can make the grind way easier. DH is more of an icing on the cake than a reason to pick up David.
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@RakimSockem said:
I think a lot of people here are so far removed from being a NEW player that they forget what it's like. Either that, or they picked up the game really quickly and never played with complete "miss every skill check, run and leave scratch marks for no reason" noobs.
A new player is NOT thinking about the grind or raising their characters. They also aren't going for saves enough to benefit from WGLF.
A new player wants to stay healthy, stay hidden, find teammates, and avoid death. There's no better 2 survivors for those things than Dwight and Claudette.
Making the argument that a perk develops what YOU consider to be a "bad habit" later on is irrelevant to the discussion of what is best for a NEW player. Self care is irreplaceable for a new players. Sucks that they nerfed it, but it's still top tier for a new player. Urban evasion is amazing for new players. Hell, I have friends with over 1000 hours in the game who still hold on to that crutch.
Can't believe I'm saying this but (ugh) Sprint Burst is amazing in the low ranks. I never used it because I always used Feng and Lithe, but Sprint Burst is more dependable for those new players who walk and crouch their asses off.
Yall gotta put yourselves back in the shoes of a newbie.
If you develop bad habits early on they can be hard to break. When I first unlocked Urban Evasion I used it all the time. Thought it was great. But it wasn't making me play better, it was making me play worse.
There are objective things in this game where you can say "this encourages good/bad habits". Aftercare and WGLF are examples of perks that encourage good habits, because it's ALWAYS good to make safe rescues, heal, and take hits for others. UE is an example of the opposite, because it teaches you to just crouch walk everywhere, which is a HUGE waste of time and in many many cases absolutely unnecessary in terms of playing stealthy. The only time you really want UE is against a Hag, that's it.
If you know people that have 1000 hours and still use UE then I hate to tell you, but your friends are probably not that great at the game, and they will never get better until they drop that perk and learn how to move around with urgency.
The things I notice new players have trouble with...
- Tracking the killer
- Tracking other survivors
- Finding objectives
- Running from the killer
- Rescuing other survivors
The first two can be solved with aura/detection perks (of which most are free). The third can be solved with Deja Vu or a map. The fourth is really just something that comes with experience. You have to learn how windows/pallets spawn, how to mind game, etc. None of that is easy for new players, and no perk is going to save them here. Something like Sprint Burst will help make it easier, but there is still a high chance they run to a dead zone, or circle back into the killer, or just straight up run into the killer's face. No perk can fix stupid.
The last, however, is something that new players just have to start doing. WGLF promotes that and that's important. It's like, you can't swim in the deep end if you never jump in the pool, and new players are terrified of just being in the water.
If you want to be a better player you need to develop good habits. Saving other survivors is a good habit, the best habit maybe. If you use perks that promote bad habits you don't grow as a player, and just stay a newbie longer than you really should.
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We want it because sometimes when the game lags you will die on the hook. I've seen it happen many times.
There is also the issue of disable players. They can't mash buttons like you or I can sometimes, so having an "opt out" rather "opt in" feature would help them.
Plus who wants to sit there and mash a button for 60 seconds anyway.
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@Fibijean said:
@thesuicidefox The only problem is, comparing your smurf account to a new player is not a fair comparison because you already know how to play the game. I think David might be a good pick for the sake of WGLF after they've got a handle on the game, perhaps as a second or third character, but his playstyle is quite unforgiving and not noob-friendly at all.
But that's only because I realize 90% of survivor perks are trash. The only ones that help new players really are aura perks, and some of the better ones are freely available (Dark Sense, Deja Vu, Small Game, Plunderer's, Kindred, Premonition). Let's look at each survivor.
Meg - Has Sprint Burst, really the only valuable perk to new players. Q&Q can be good but again new players tend to not even use windows much (lockers though). Plus the same result can be achieved by just slow vaulting, and I doubt any new players will use Q&Q during a chase to actually juke the killer. Adren is the best surv perk in the game, but it's made moot when you never get to the gates (or you get to the gates so easily you might as well not even bother with it, this is rare though at low ranks).
Claud - Has Empathy. Self Care teaches bad habits and is ultimately not good for getting better at the game. It's actually more of a perk you use at mid-ranks to avoid spending medkits all the time, or if you just want to have it as a backup in case no one ever heals you.
Dwight - Has Bond. PT/Leader won't help new players much since they don't team up on gens (and when they do killers rarely ever stop them), and they don't heal you a lot of the time when they should, therefore the benefits of these perks are lost to the players that can't take full advantage of them.
Jake - Iron Will is meta, and is a good beginner perk, but not worth picking Jake first (this coming from someone that originally started with Jake). Calm Spirit is lowkey a meta perk but only at the meta level. Sabo is... yea. Nothing of value here.
Feng - Has Lithe and Alert. You could argue Technician is good for beginners, but only for SUPER NEW beginners. Like "I just bought the game I don't even know what a skill check is yet" beginners. After about 10 games you should be able to consistently hit good skill checks most of the time. Lithe, again low ranks don't use windows. It could encourage them to do so but chances are they won't know where to go once they Lithe. Alert can be useful if they actually drop pallets or the killer kicks gens, but again this is rare at low ranks. It's more useful mid-ranks where these events actually happen regularly.
Nea - Has nothing for new players. Balanced is a very high level perk, you need to understand how tiles spawn and such to use it properly. Streetwise will only benefit those that can take advantage of it's very slight boosts. I've already stated how UE is a bad perk that enforces bad habits.
Laurie/Ash - I put these two together because they are the only ones with Obsession perks, and the obsession perks are high skill. Ash's perks in particular aren't very good at high levels and also low levels. They just aren't good perks period. MOM could be meta again if they fix protection hits and reduce the hits to 2. Of all these perks a new player will only find use in DS, and even then they have to hit the skill check and understand they can play super risky while DS is active, something new players just don't do.
Ace - Nothing that will help new players. He is a very niche type of character for collecting items or kobes.
Bill - BT and Unbreakable are really good even for low level players, but I don't see a lot of super risky, save someone in the killer's face type of thing unless they just don't know the killer is there or something. And low rank killers rarely ever slug, they will pick you up immediately even if it's a bad move.
Quentin - Pharmacy can be a good alternative to Self Care, but Wake Up and Vigil are bleh. Wake Up can be useful at higher ranks but Vigil is worthless no matter what.
Tapp - Detective's Hunch is a good aura perk, sadly it gets beat by Deja Vu and Small Game which are both free perks. Tenacity has niche uses but not for newbies. Stake Out is good anti-Ruin but no killers use Ruin below like rank 13 usually. It's not going to help you at low ranks.
Kate - Windows Of Opportunity is actually a great beginner perk because it shows you all the vault/pallet locations which is really important to learn. DWM is good against competent killers but it's not going to make much difference against low rank killers especially if you don't know where to go after vaulting. Boil Over is a bad perk period, though it could probably help against new killers that don't know how hooks spawn. However Iron Grasp is a thing, a very common thing at low ranks, which is basically a hard counter to Boil over so there's that.
Adam - Deliverance is the only useful one for new players here, but again it requires a safe rescue which new survivors won't be very good at doing. Plus they will probably Deliverance at the most worst time anyway, so it will be worthless at the end of the day. Autodidact just makes healing more difficult. It's for more skilled players. Distraction is a meme no matter the rank.
Jeff - Aftercare is good perk for beginners because it encourages you to rescue and heal others, though being more conditional makes it harder to use for newbies. Distortion is GREAT to beat any aura reading the killer has, however at low ranks there won't be very much if any of that. Breakdown can maybe help you avoid running right to the killer after being saved, but it won't do much else to help you.
Jane - Poised requires you to do gens, which again low ranks don't tend to do. Head On is a pretty high skill perk not for beginners. Solidarity is in the same category as Autodidact, the benefit will not be that great for players that just started playing.
David - WGLF. Pretty much all I need to say, it boosts your BP earnings to make it just that much easier to level up anyone else. DH is one of the top perks in the game and can be used somewhat effectively by low ranks if only as an on-demand Sprint Burst. NM is the bad one here, but you don't have to equip it and if you do you just made the game harder for yourself. Play this way for a little bit and then take it off, you will see a noticeable improvement to your abilities.
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@Fibijean said:
@thesuicidefox I can see your points, though I disagree with most of them but that's mainly a matter of opinion. I think it's important for discussions like this, though, to get inside the new survivor mindset. WGLF is great for farming bloodpoints, if you use it. New players just aren't that bold most of the time. They do everything they possibly can to avoid taking hits, even to protect other people. Perks like urban and self-care are not necessarily meta perks, but they don't need to be. The point is they help new players to do the things that new players already do instinctively.
I've been playing on a smurf account (now a second account because I'm purple rank surv/killer) and I can tell you that WGLF is the absolute best teachable to get first. It makes leveling up any other character way WAY easier, and it encourages good play on the survivor (to make safe rescues).
Like all the meta perks are pretty much worthless at low ranks. Adren will rarely if ever proc, and when it does it will be a game against an absolute baby killer you wouldn't have needed it anyway. DS skill check is a bit tough for newbies, and the whole playstyle is way too much of a risk for new players. BT is still useful, especially because killers at low ranks will camp, but new players aren't going to run up and make a save in the killer's face because they lack balls.
The only things that help are aura perks, which many of the free perks do great. Deja Vu, Kindred, Small Game, Prem, Dark Sense... these are all actually good perks for beginners. Bond/Empathy require you to level up Dwight/Claud, but outside of those perks nothing else is going to help you all that much. MAYBE Sprint Burst, but DH is basically the same thing on command. New players that pick David are going to not only get BP faster than others, but will likely learn better habits because he doesn't have any perks that teaches bad habits (and in fact has 1 that makes the game harder so you would learn faster).
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@Fibijean said:
@thesuicidefox @chieftaco See my comment above. Take it up with the devs. Seriously, I don't know why you're complaining to me about the game design. I can't do anything to change it, all I can do is tell you what's in the rules and why it matters. Which I've done, several times, so... gonna stop before this gets too out of hand. Over and out.
"Take it up with the devs" All I did was reply to the OP dude.
The devs have stated that their goal for balance is "2 die/2 escape". That's the ideal game, therefore you cannot use kills/escapes as a measure of win/loss because then the game is basically built to make it impossible for killer to ever "win".
Pips are the only thing in the game that measure success, determine how fast you rank up, and verify how well you played in a game that has 1,000,000 variables. Two games could be completely identical but in one game a survivor escapes based on luck, you can't point at that and say "killer lost". Heck you can't even say that survivor won, because they literally could have done nothing all game and just took hatch by pure luck at the end.
If you didn't pip you didn't win. End of story.
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@Fibijean said:
I actually agree with @chieftaco about Dwight. He's basically designed to be easy for new players to pick up.
I usually recommend Nea to new players, or Claudette. Feng would probably be on that list if it weren't for the fact that she's not a base character, and most new players don't have or want DLC just yet. People who are new to the game are super paranoid about doing anything that might put them in danger. They like to hide, and they like to heal. David's perks are good but they're all about living on the edge - they don't suit the typical new-player playstyle. Urban evasion is great for learning how to stealth and evade the killer, and balanced landing, like lithe, is a good exhaustion perk which counters the deadly stagger that most new players don't plan ahead enough to avoid. Streetwise is meh, but not having to worry so much about consuming items is good for learning how to use them effectively. And Claudette obviously is just good for keeping yourself and your team in good health, which is always beneficial, especially since new players are terrible at evading while injured, what with all the moaning and blood.
Urban Evasion is an awful perk that teach awful habits. It teaches you to crouch walk everywhere all the time, which just a huge waste of time. Lightweight is better because you can run around more freely and actually get to places quickly. You don't get better at the game by using UE. It has niche uses, like against Hag or maybe to stealth slow killers like Huntress or Nurse, but outside of that it just teaches you to play poorly.
Claud has Self Care which is a waste of a perk slot. Equip a medkit and you basically can avoid leveling up Claud. Again teaching bad habits that if you are hurt you should run off to a corner of the map and heal all the time.
Streetwise is a rather worthless perk. It does almost nothing, and for new players they aren't going to be super efficient with items to take advantage of that tiny boost.
Dwight has valid reasons to be a good starter, but low ranks don't do gens in groups so PT is not going to help much, and Leader isn't going to help because survivors don't bother to heal you after an unhook, they just run off and hide. The benefit you get from these perks at low ranks is minimal at best. Bond is really good even for new players, but that's not a better perk to get first than WGLF.
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@[Deleted User] said:
He’s not beginner friendly at all. No Mither sounds completely counter intuitive, and it goes over a lot of players heads exactly what the perk is actually for. It’s lost on so many players that it’s an altruism perk, intended to be an anti tunnelling perk for your teammates by intentionally making yourself an attractive diversion to the killer.
I'll agree that NM isn't a good perk for beginners. But WGLF is very important to get first, and DH is one of the best perks in the game.
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@Fibijean said:
@NuclearBurrito I think we should quit while we're ahead, honestly. His argument boils down to such a firm belief that pipping ought to be the win condition that he's managed to genuinely convince himself that it's the reality of the game design, to the point of ignoring the game rules themselves. It's really quite impressive, on one level. But it's also pretty clear that no amount of actual reasoning is going to make a difference.
That's because the game rules are inconsistent. ######### happens in this game sometimes where it's just bad luck, or silly mistakes. You can Urban from locker to locker all game, if the others do gens and you escape that's not a win. You won't pip from that.
You guys want to argue these arbitrary things are wins/losses, no the only thing that matters is at the end of the game you pip or don't pip. That's it. I've had games where I double pip, am the ONLY ONE to die because I basically gave myself to the killer to help the others escape. You're going to tell me I lost those games? Nah, I pipped. I could have easily left but I didn't I decided to get more points or save a friend or whatever the case may be. The fact I can make that choice means kills/escapes are not a measure of a win. I've also let survivors go for playing a good game, or because their teammates sandbagged them or something. You're telling me I would "lose" those games too? Again no, if I get a pip that's how the game defines wins. You can point to the tutorial all you want, but the end game screens are what's important here.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660820#Comment_660820
Yes! The Killer's win condition IS near impossible at red ranks and it DOES conflict with the 2k goal (unless they want really swingy games)!
That's why so many people want most Killers to be buffed and why I've said quite often that a 2.7k average would be ideal rather than a 2k average.
Correction.
Playing for a 4k at high ranks is near impossible. But it's still not the win condition. If the game is balanced around 2 die/2 escape than you can't use that as a measure of a win because in a perfect game that will always happen. 2 survivors "win", 2 "lose" and killer will always lose.
If you want to play for a 4k and make that your top goal, go ahead. I'm not saying you can't do that. But what I am saying is that a 4k is not a win. If all the survivors just kill themselves on a hook, you will 4k and not pip at high ranks. If you run infinite tombstone Myers and kill everyone, you will depip. since these situations exist that means you can't use kill/escapes to measure a win.
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@Fibijean said:
@thesuicidefox I'm sorry... but you're just wrong. That's not what the pip is designed to be. That's not what the rules define as the win condition. You can define your personal goal as a pip, that's fine, but don't pretend that that's the win condition defined by the game.
The fact that the pip system exists does not in any way render the win conditions obsolete. The only thing that "the fact that you can die and still pip or 4k and still depip" proves is that winning the game is not directly tied to ranking up. Call it a design flaw if you will, but at worst that's all it is. Doesn't change the reality that the win condition, as defined in the rules of the game, which is the only place it can be objectively defined, is escaping or killing. (And before you start saying that that doesn't count because it doesn't say "win", a "goal" in the context of a game's rules is the same thing as a win condition. Only someone with limited English comprehension could seriously argue otherwise.)
I'll say it for the last time: your conflation of winning and pipping is an assumption and a logical fallacy on your part. As you put it:
Play well = pip =/= win. Play poorly = depip =/= loss.
It is the win condition as defined by the game. You do well you pip, you pip you win, you win you rank up.
If there was no pip system you can say anything is a win condition. It would be completely arbitrary.
The fact that some survivors can escape while others die means that you can't use kills/escapes as a measure of winning, because winning is binary. If a 4k is the only way a killer can win a game, then winning is near impossible at high ranks for killer.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660810#Comment_660810
If 2 survivors escaped and 2 survivors died then the 2 that escaped won and the other 2 lost.
The Killer also lost because he failed to Kill the 2 Survivors that escaped, thus he hasn't completed his win condition of Killing the Survivors.
It's pretty easy to measure this using the icons at the end. The door symbols represent survivors that won, the skulls and DC symbols represent survivors that lost. The Killer wins by making all 4 survivors lose so you just need to have 4 skulls in order to know you've won.
And you STILL haven't provided evidence for pips being a win. You've just SAID they are a win and then concluded that escaping isn't as a result.
Your entire argument is essentially:
- Either pips are a win or Escapes are a win, it can't be both because you can have one without the other
- Therefor pips are a win
So killer lost because 2 escaped? SMH no, they only lost if they depipped. This is exactly the problem with using escapes/kills as measurements of a win. By this logic, the killer's win condition is near impossible at red ranks, and conflicts with the whole philosophy of balance "2 die 2 escape".
If you pip you win. It doesn't matter what else happens because there are like a millions things that can happen. What if a survivor willingly sacrifices themselves to save someone else. Did they lose because they died? No. If they pipped from doing that, then they won. If they just left and did nothing all game, then they don't deserve to win and will depip from that.
Escapes are not a win, I did not say they were, and in fact argue AGAINST that very notion. You can get a pip without escaping, and you can escape without pipping. Therefore escapes are not a valid measure of a win because there are different results.
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@Fibijean said:
@NuclearBurrito He won't because there isn't one. He's conflating the two because he assumes (not unreasonably, to be fair) that playing well ought to result in a win. His mistake is in the leap of logic he's made on that basis that the measure of a player's abilities (pip system) must therefore be the win condition.
No there is no other measure of a win. If you do well, you pip, therefore you win. You can't do poorly and pip. It doesn't happen. If you do poorly you depip, which is a loss.
You can't say escaping/killing are win conditions purely because of the pip system. The fact you can die and still pip or 4k and still depip are proof of this. Not to mention, how does this work when you factor in 4v1? If 2 survivors escape, did those 2 win and the others lose? What about the killer? Did they win or lose? You can't say, you need some form of actual measurement that you won, which is what the pip is designed to be.
There is no leap in logic. Play well = pip = win. Play poorly = depip = loss.
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@Efra_Legend said:
On paper yes, WGLF cuts the BP grind in half and DH is the best exhaustion perk hands down. Unfortunately its probably not easy for a new player, with no idea of how the game works, to recognise that by just reading what David's perks do. He doesnt seem beginner friendly. DH also has a learning curve to it, there's a lot of players in purple and even red ranks that still fail to use it correctly. They just avoid the hit and go down 2 seconds later, instead of creating distance to get to a pallet or window.
If I were to recommend a survivor for a new player to learn the game, I'd probably go with Feng Min. Technician will ease the skill check penalties until they get used to them, Lithe is a good and easy to use exhaustion perk, and alert is a pretty underrated detection perk that'll help them keep track of the killer. Then I'd definitely suggest to level David 2nd once they learn the game.
So I have a second account. It was a smurf but since I'm not purple ranks on both sides IDK bout that anymore xD
The problem with Lithe and Alert is they require windows and pallets respectively. Low rank survivors don't use either. They don't know where windows spawn or where to go after they Lithe. Similarly, they don't use pallets enough for Alert to help them. It will help when the killer kicks a gen, but that too is rare at low ranks, and if it's clear across the map it doesn't even make a difference. And Technician really only helps when you are brand-spanking-new to the game. After about 10-20 games you should be good enough at skill checks to not fail them as often.
WGLF boosts your BP earnings, and DH is a free hit. You don't need to be amazing with DH at low ranks, you just need to wait until the killer is close and use it. I've yet to meet a killer below green ranks that doesn't swing.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660760#Comment_660760
"There is no other valid measurement of a win in this game besides a pip because you can escape/get 4k and depip, or die/get 0k and pip. The sheer fact that can happen dismisses the idea of "escapes" and "kills" as a win."
You are getting it backwards. You must FIRST establish that pips are a win condition before you can make claims like this.
Ranking systems in general do not necessarily reflect the win condition in all cases, so it is NOT a given, especially since it contradicts the game guide.
Pips are the only consistent measure of success. If you pip you have to have played well, especially at high ranks. However the same is not true when talking about escaping or getting kills.
Pips are the only valid win condition.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660748#Comment_660748
False. Many games use ranking systems besides winning. For example overwatch not only competitive but IS an esport yet it's ranking system isn't based on wins.
Still doesn't change the fact that the way the tutorial is written does not explicitly stated "you win by escaping/getting kills". There is no other valid measurement of a win in this game besides a pip because you can escape/get 4k and depip, or die/get 0k and pip. The sheer fact that can happen dismisses the idea of "escapes" and "kills" as a win.
Again if I'm writing a tutorial for baseball I can say "your goal is to hit the ball and run all the bases to score a point". That doesn't mean by virtue of doing this you won the game, because the game is won based on which tram had the most points.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660725#Comment_660725
What's the source that pipping is a win at all.
According to the game itself winning as a survivor is escaping. Thus when you escape and depip... you have won and depipped... and that's it because winning and pipping are 2 separate things.
You can't rank up if you don't win, therefore whatever the condition is to rank up is a win. You don't lose and rank up.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660730#Comment_660730
First line:
"The Survivor's goal is to escape the trial"
That's about as direct and explicit as it gets.
That's not equivalent to saying "survivors win by escaping".
If I wrote a guide on baseball I would say " the goal of the pitcher is to strike out the batter... the goal of the batter is to hit the ball". Neither of those are explicitly saying that's the win condition, but that's how you play the game.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
@thesuicidefox In fact, not only was the game guide as a whole updated, but that specific section OF the game guide was updated.
Here is the updated screenshot:
Nothing here says "x = win" though. It tells you what you need to do to EARN the win, but it doesn't explicitly say that killing survivors or escaping will give you a win.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660683#Comment_660683
Source?
Also the game guide has been updated very recently.
Uhhh the results screen in the game?
If you do nothing and run out the gate you depip. That's not a win.
If survivors all kill themselves on the first hook, you're not going to pip (at higher ranks). That's not a win.
If you pip that's a win. Anything else is just a personal goal.
Also no where in the tutorial does it say "x = win". It tells you to do gens and escape, or chase and sacrifice survivors. Those are conducive to the win but are not the win itself.
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@GrootDude said:
Agreed
That's not how this works xD
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Except the tutorial is not the game. It's outdated and been outdated for a long time.
Pipping is the only defined win condition. If you don't pip you didn't win sorry.
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Winning is a pip. Nothing else.
The fact you can die and still pip, the fact you can 4k and depip or 0k and pip, proves this to be the case. If your goal is to get a 4k or escape, that's fine but it's not a win as defined by the game.
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It should show you the character and the item. It shouldn't show names or profiles.
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Example of misinformation?
As far as I could tell the Wiki is pretty spot on. It's reasonable to expect errors, I mean even an official wiki run by developers will have wrong information some where at some point.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/656100#Comment_656100
Stealth play isn’t spirit counter play, it is a strategy that works against every killer, we’re referring to her chase counter play.
Yes stealth is totally counter play.
No stealth does not work against all killers equally.
Spirit is indeed weak to stealth. If you make her spend a lot of time just finding you then that's equal to time in a chase. She's a 110 killer, she can't search an area as quickly as a Billy, which makes it easier to hide behind things. Just play super immersed and don't take huge risks you can beat a Spirit. Have all 4 players doing, that I've seen it work.
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Winning is just not losing backwards.