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It’s really bad time for such proposals
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@ArcT said:
You want to see something painfully egregious?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNPJH40tCHs
Her infection doesn't bounce according to physics. It bounces to automatically track survivors.
”skill adaptability is needed for this game” someone said
“people need tools to catch up” they were claiming
As soon as this happened on other side, we see results. AUTO AIMING damn it. Who will find it fair?
I thought 2 vs 8 and Ghoul were already a good lesson not helping people while it affects others.
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I wish your main would be addressed and fixed, reaction for this forum is understandable. GL for next
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006433#Comment_4006433
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they didn't say reverted. It's just slated to be looked at again in an upcoming patch.
I’m pretty sure changes in Bugfix patches means fixing what they’ve done when it went wrong. Not completely changing perk and giving it third look, because it's bugfix patch.
They also said before that every perk that was changed regard “anti system” will be cancelled, but they forgot about tenacity and off the record. So clearly, it was a mistake. They simply forgot about them
What the point of your message? Last time u made a weird note about PvE and took it back in a manner “I didn't tell anything”, now u catching up to the phrase. Not really nice behaviour
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They already said changes will be reverted
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006347#Comment_4006347
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OFV2CEGM9O9P/img-5314.jpeg
if i didn’t let the last survivor get hatch i would have all 100% since hatch doesn’t count toward mmr i have no problem letting someone go.
This is just in the last 30 days. Some notes, i don’t camp, i don’t tunnel and i obviously don’t slug for the 4k since i let the last player go. This game is so killer sided if the killer has a functioning brain and understands what to do. I don’t even try I meme i do dances while i carry survivors to the hook and i still win.
0.2 hours is literally one match. What about all time count?
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DC penalty is too low right now. Because of “suspicious activity” bug
Some people now use it for their favour
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006229#Comment_4006229
It doesnt matter.
It's fine if he gets options for alternative and potentially easier playstyle.
You are not seeing the forest behind the trees here.
It doesnt matter.
Why?
It's fine if he gets options for alternative and potentially easier playstyle.
casuals cried too hard about being bullied and tunnelled/slugged
So when survivors gets alternative and potentially easier gameplay from system that encourages their misplay — it’s bad, yes? But when killers…?
Do you understand that you can't have your cake and eat it too? You either support simplified and primitive gameplay for everyone, or remove the ability to cheese at the beginning and force player to progress through skill only. U can’t tell “well, u have a skill issue” after switching to some build or character who is relatively easier to play from the start, and provide you unfair advantage towards survivors who also may just be newbie and start the game. That’s imbalance
Unlike the tunnel, which is a way to play and an approach, haste is an in-game mechanic driven by numbers that is straightforward exploitable.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005429#Comment_4005429
Animatronic is in fact fine because all the "noob friendly" stuffs don't come at the cost of agency of the survivors.
He gets 4.6 for throwing axe regardless if he misses because he shouldn't be stuck as 4.4 for 7-10 seconds without power when any other 4.4 has access to their power almost immediately or have 4.4 due to small collision and being their own power.
Doors can be as boring as you want, it doesnt matter in this context.
He doesnt get like "axe autoaim" to help people who dont want to bother learning aiming or some other insane mechanic like ghoul or krasue do.
It doesn't cancel the fact that his haste add-ons encourages missing with power or teleports done in messy way without actual interactivity and meaning. On PTB, for example, with haste incentives and specific build he were able to zoom around map and getting free downs just because high haste can deny any skill from survivor and make every 50/50 pallet trash. The way how they artificially limited his special ability to justify turning him m1 killer for this few seconds just work because they recycled another killer's ability. Not a rework, not a new take, but a recycle with an artificial limitation and a crutch in the form of speed.
I can’t support such approach just because he is new player friendly killer and not op, as I told before.
Nothing bad about the players themselves, and I don't experience anything unpleasant towards people who main them. I appreciate when his main trying to use max potential of m2. I still enjoy playing against this killer and I’m not some dc fan just because I saw principles I don’t like. For me it's just a matter of how BHVR did the character design, and how they keep doing this. Krasue doesn't have free hit scan as Ghoul, her power just wasn't limited like Animatronic’s one with one axe only.
If you remove the artificial limitations on Springtrap's ability usage, giving him 4.6 speed after miss will seriously break the game. Because the core design is poor. Just like Krasue's. Her problem can be solved with literally one principle: switch the flight to a different button, and make her whip a special ability rather than a basic attack. That's it. Another limitation as a crutch for a problematic design approach
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I think this is only heavy counterplay against her now and not so popular, so… that’s ok?
Her macro isn’t bad, she has good mobility and infected survivors pretty noisy, so it's free info
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If u have some more ideas for counterplay in mind, it would be nice to see it as some comments. I hope I helped to make this patch less frustrating for someone
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005387#Comment_4005387
i mean, either way they were balanced around bad / casual players, it was just a matter of HOW was that accomplished.
casuals cried too hard about being bullied and tunnelled/slugged, well, here we go, this is the first half of that.
Every killer that was released after Hound Master is designed for new players only and have very little of progression. But ofc they overbuffed them by numbers or have extremely braindead mechanics. And it’s 4th killer (if don’t count Myers rework that has same principle) already that shares this tendency. I don’t even share widely accepted “Animatronic is fine” point just because he isn’t op. His teleports are very lazy mechanic and his main power instead of punishing u after missplay encourage with 4.6 speed and haste add-ons. I despise such approach
Just because they failed to teach players how to play the game and separating casualty from enthusiasts... It's so lazy giving broken toys as crutches only to claim about some need of anti tunnel later. And they doing same for survivors. Let’s create broken concept of anti tunnel, to justify buffs for already strong killer. I don't appreciate this from both sides no matter what. Killers should stay strong, but they HAVE TO be designed around player being able to do a little until he actually master it. Like Oni, Huntress, PHead, Artist. Or stay casual, but mid as Nemesis with low progression from the start.
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Never balance roles in game around casual players
Another non skill killer who were buffed because of non skill PTB
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004258#Comment_4004258
Also the part that keeps getting overlooked in that reply, which is offensive 3v1ing. I can't believe that's an actual concern.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004272#Comment_4004272
DBD effectively is more in the realm of PVE, given how much the game relies on poor matchmaking and steamrolls. It even has scaling difficulty in 2v8, the mode that is easily the most highly praised. You might not agree, but the game is begging for more and better catchup mechanics.
DBD effectively is more in the realm of PVE, given how much the game relies on poor matchmaking and steamrolls.
If game is straightforward broken, it doesn’t change initial genre. It can’t be PvE because people facing people. It's just that some people like to manipulate terms in an attempt to justify something.
The way how people justify this is ridiculous. People build this sentiment because this game doesn’t provide adequate learning curve and prefers to give an imitation of skill, like broken killer powers or second chances perks. Their sentiment matters more than balance because they can’t learn how to play the game and wait for system babysitting them when they counter someone who plainly play better or don’t deny meta. Whatever. They won’t start to play better, core issues never would be fixed if indulging players whims. The average player in DBD can’t hold any competition , hence we have tunneling hysteria and dash killer slop.
This will motivate players who doesn’t fit to this forum’s sentiment to turn off any kind of empathy for others, just because some part of players willing to go against balance and logic for a minute of pseudo-fun made it first for them. If, instead of solving the problems and defining that PvP always stands as form of competition, they continue to create workarounds to maintain a low skill floor for players, the gap between sweats and the average fan will grow exponentially, become more acute, and matches will become more unbearable. Matches will be a hundred times worse, and you'll be playing a simulator rather than actual challenge. Because the average player, nurtured by years of inept balance, doesn't know how to play, while some win chasers is given with broken toys like Ghoul or "anti-tunnel." And since MMR with such a message won't appear, it's the average player who will have to deal with it. If that's what they want, go ahead. I'll see how, three years from now, despite all the changes, the same people will still be complaining that nothing has changed.
BHVR doesn’t have issues because their game is in assemtry genre. They have issues because they trying to ignore PvP key aspects to indulge so called “average player”. This is marketing then and not some sort of actualy competent design. No wonder they fired so many people and only who created this issue from the first day of game existence left. If tgey’ll continue feeding so much, one day or another DBD won't even need a competitor. They'll kill themselves, their game, and their fan base. It’s already rottingIdc if I’ll be banned from this forum for such blatant speech, because if what about the forum is - specific sentiment that ignores balance, I’ll be glad to move on.
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I can't even decipher.
Do you feel this way about every change in this game? One of my favorite perks was recently changed, messing up my build and discouraging me from playing how I want. Yet I had to accept it and change my build. It's almost like things change over time and you just need to adjust.First - what exactly u don’t understand? The way people feel that it’s not fair other side receive catch up tool while they don’t? The way how average player is not what u actually consider? The way how some people who finds this changes good and balanced (Mulder clearly refers to someone as name/nickname), blatantly lying and it was proved on their game as soon as they faced decent players?
I do. My killer was changed in a way I didn’t ask so. They justified his movement speed nerf by adding two ridiculous iri add-ons, while his speed already was low and he has one of the longest cooldown from his power + the easiest power for dodgingWhat I can do? Because average player don’t want to learn play as/against him properly, I have to live with these two “funny” addons that are using as excuse for me playing in different way. Before I were able to allow myself using his M2 more frequently, now I have to use boring M1 more. Just because other players since the start used only boring M1 and zoning
I didn’t support nerf of fog vials in a way that happened - I think we have mutual agreement in community that it was bad balancing from BHVR. So please, don’t try shift goalpost to this theme.
I will repeat again - if it’s PvP and multiplayer, game should be balanced around effective strats as a way to encourage the way who performed this effectiveness in a best way. It’s player’s duty to counter effective tunneling by skill without reliance on game doing this job instead of them. U don’t ask for difficulty adaptability in multiplayer, just because previously failed in proper matchmaking. U told yourself - tunnelling doesn’t cause breaking balance issue. It’s all about pure sentiment, but the changes people asking for affecting core balance directly. U can’t ignore core balance just because “average” player u imagined don’t care about balancing. Because it’s devs duty, but it seems BHVR working currently by pure marketing policy, forgetting about how to design games.
If u really want to discuss “ethical” part of tunneling - why u don’t look from other perspective?
It’s in psychological nature of assym genre when u play alone against team .
Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Killer, despite being considered as “power” role, will always feel under pressure due to being presented as minority in a match. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many assym games due to weird devs decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to "target". Because it's logical. "I'm alone and it's 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it... probably making it 3 vs 1". It’s a natural way to balance 1 vs 4 imbalance issue where 4 will always overperform just due to their quantity.
Tunneling is a way to deal with pressure that was created by nature of assym gameplay.As well as when survivors’ team up and gen rush making them to help with their own pressure. Problem is that solo q struggle with it, so it’s reasonable to help with this specific part. Since the start of the game the match is on ticking clock that reminds u about losing control. On both sides
https://youtu.be/QO2FKH5Cnsk?si=5UPmY7viWCpDdElh
So again. Killer showed toxicity, hitting u on hook and hardtunneling just because? Humble him through gameplay. That’s how u actually discourge toxicity - showing their irrelevance and moderating precisely. U could, if u are actually good player and don’t deny meta. Issue with moderating is because it doesn’t actually works in this game. Toxic players should be a precise deal, and not affecting game balance. That’s why better grading and proper rating system needed.
This video clearly shows why tunneling is less issue when we talk about “fun factor” -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004272#Comment_4004272
But it wouldn’t. U don’t have this alternative. Base kits from ptb wasn’t enough. U still didn’t create good incentive
That's an entirely different argument from 'you can deter tunnelling by just outplaying harder'.
If killer discouraged by game system only for being deprived of most effective game style artificially, hence no point in PvP.
Why not? This has been the game's standard for ages. On both sides, 'most effective game styles' have been nerfed repeatedly. Why is tunnelling the one exception?
That's an entirely different argument from 'you can deter tunnelling by just outplaying harder'.
No. It isn’t. When u expect game by force discourge effective style by whatever reason, u have to provide meaningful compensation. Otherwise this discouragement should come from opponent.
Why not? This has been the game's standard for ages. On both sides, 'most effective game styles' have been nerfed repeatedly. Why is tunnelling the one exception?
Heal meta back again, Gen rush still exist.Tunneling isn’t special and was already nerfed as well by perks and base kit BT. Moreover, compate to 5 to 6 patches current gen rush much more stronger, because every counterplay in terms of perks were triple nerfed. This effectiveness was nerfed from both sides to the state it requires more skill than hiding in bush or bringing mori offering. The game’s standard actually subtly changed. It’s a drastic difference from old play style pace and current one
It doesn’t mean gen rush and heal isn’t the most effectiv strats despite continuous “nerfs” (at least because majority of the nerfs was reverted) still. Because they are the most effective play style anyway. Same should stay with tunneling. U don’t punish effective approach because other side don’t like it. Because they would never like effectiveness from their opponent
It will take a meaning to punish specific style if it
- Causing many technical issues to the game
- Denying skill expression from other side
- Counterplay isn’t provided at all
- It kills interactive part of the game
So please, don’t even try to put stealth here again. U stll can do stealth, but your opponent has an optional counterplay now, so u can’t do 4. thing. I already answered on this. U still can do stealth effectively as well, it is just became as harder as resetting, or tunneling .
When I want system discourage my play, I go to Bloodborne, Silent Hill 2 RE, Resident Evil. When I want being discouraged by player (or discourge myself) I play multiplayer.
I still want to get answer why I have to be discouraged by logical and effective strat from game and not player. By “why” - I don’t mean talking about 9 years of repetitive mistake that brought us to this dialogue.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004214#Comment_4004214
— Was he discouraged? Yes
No, because the thing you did to 'punish his tunnelling' would have discouraged his alternatives the same way.
Whatever discourages tunnelling must discourage specifically tunnelling, and not just be a blanket beats-all strategy. For example, just slamming gens doesn't make tunnelling less attractive, since it has the same impact (Or even greater) on non-tunnelling strategies, despite the fact that it does reduce the success rate of tunnelling.
To discourage tunnelling, the tactic must instil in the killer a realisation that the game would've gone over better for them if they hadn't tunnelled. Simply running him for longer doesn't do that, and in fact accomplishes the opposite, if these forums are to be taken as a barometer. Plenty of killers on here have stated that long chases and short gens compel them to tunnel. So taking them for longer chases and shorter gens would then likely increase tunnelling, not decrease it.
To discourage tunnelling, the tactic must instil in the killer a realisation that the game would've gone over better for them if they hadn't tunnelled
But it wouldn’t. U don’t have this alternative. Base kits from ptb wasn’t enough. U still didn’t create good incentive
If killer discouraged by game system only for being deprived of most effective game style artificially, hence no point in PvP. It should be single player then. When I want system discourage my play, I go to Bloodborne, Silent Hill 2 RE, Resident Evil. When I want being discouraged by player (or discourge myself) I play multiplayer.
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I don’t think it’s intuitively clear. And I’m afraid of so many conditions can cause too many bugs in already sensitive code. But… that sounds… uh.
What about ”anti” when slug becomes massive and too long? Like, if two survivors slugged already, they can crawl faster and recover at the same time, and when being close to each other use power button to pick themselves up? I know few people and Otz also were talking about this.
Giving 5 sec of sprint burst sounds more fair than blatant endurance.Too many factors still doesn’t consider every case and overload system. And it breaks any authenticity…
P.S. I still don’t understand why slugged survivor as loud as injured one when face being down suppose sounds being muffled + why not giving ability to 99% recover yourself. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004068#Comment_4004068
It's evolve around massive skill issue from average player
Yes. The average player. Average being majority, people who want to play with friends a couple times a week or have a few matches after work, not who devote their lives to this game as though it were a religion. If the game caters solely to its obsessives in the top 5%, it's cooked.
your faithful picture of fairness shatters as soon as u see actually skillful survivors who even without comms can accomplish basic objective
Weird how you assume I've never seen these people.
because for example in CIS or Asia almost NO ONE share your mindset.
So my opinion is a biased minority, but you speak for a whole server?
You overestimate numbers of people that share your mindset, because it's forum with limited bias.
It's just your opinion, and not me, not you, shouldn't manipulate with “but majority approve my view
So, stop pretending your approach is the most faithful
Funny enough, tunneling doesn't hit me that hard, that often. My desire for change has more to do with the mass unhappiness I see regarding tunneling, not just here, but in other places too (I do—and this is a fact—have access to the internet.) Slugging is actually the bigger issue for me, personally, but tunneling is the one more people are being burnt out by.
Somehow the only limiting the way how majority plays is their only excuse to break policy.
The majority? Most of my survivor matches don't feature hard, early-game tunneling. If it was the majority then that would, indeed, be game breaking to change it. But it's not, so the game just needs adjustments to discourage those who do. No one will take your precious tunneling away, they're just trying to make it less easy to achieve a 3v1 at early game.
the game just needs adjustments to discourage those who do.
Discourage way of effective play and outplaying opponent? If tunnel on 5-4 gen happened, it was a mismatch from the start.
Okay. I can understand this complaints towards S tier killers. But it is S tier and u work with S tier only then. U don’t do global change.
So, discourge… discouraging… So, punishment? How it works. Hm…. Somehow I was recently hardtunneled by Nemesis. It took 3 gen. Without anti tunnel perks, and he proxy camped me even. Not a lot of sources, my teammates escaped with 2. It was a tie and he was humbled in EG showing his salt after me saying GG to my teammates and regretting I didn’t loop him better.
Conclusions:— Was he discouraged? Yes
— Was he punished for early tunnel? Yes
— Was it fun for me at least? Yes.
So, it turns out you can have all of this already just by playing better than opponent. Wow… Sounds reasonable. Why responsibility from discouraging my opponent should be shifted from my team on game system?
Don’t u think making this “discourage” artificial can heavily backfire?
My whole comment was erased unfortunately, but I think it’s enough here. Just more few words.
I’m also average player. Less than 1k, mid MMR, 50/50 players with solo Q incline, but had experience of SFW. Don’t play S tier killers. 40% -50 ER, 60-65% KR. I also work and study, play for fun. Sounds average and ideal of what BHVR were looking to. Why I am being average player being spoke out from you and u say u speak for my fun? Because it’s a lie. I don’t find your position neither fair or fun.
Turns out your “average” player is only player who agree with you. You don’t count player as “average” when he talks like this:
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004085#Comment_4004085
I answered on your question, but I’m pretty sure it wont satisfy u, because your own grudge interferes with adequate dialogue
I asked a very reasonable question and you launched into a tirade against me, personally. It's not my grudge that's interfering here.
You also answered the question to someone else, in another post that you did not @ me in, and you didn't quote the post or refer to it at all. I assume that you are referring to this:
Providing daily rank mode with limited time for few hours in peak hours can help without drastically affecting queues if code it properly.
And I actually think that this is a decent idea, though I have my reservations about time-gating it. It is true that this would funnel people a bit more and help to filter out the try-hards a bit better, but it'd also block out people that might want to play more competitive matches simply because the ranked mode's timetable doesn't line up with their own.
I am actually significantly less concerned about the idea of reworking everything, because if this ranked mode were to prove that it requires it, then it's something that would need to happen regardless of the existence of a ranked mode, so it wouldn't be any extra work-load specific to ranked mode.
If it's broken, it's broken, and needs to be fixed whether it's in ranked or not.
I don't think this would solve the entire issue, and I don't think it'd preclude the need for a tunnel-specific balancing address, but I do think it's worth a shot.
U rejected valid ask to prove your words by video of your gameplay
One singular person's experience isn't proof. The premise of your demand itself is faulty, and it's ridiculous to expect that anyone is obligated to dance to whatever whims you have. Not to mention that it was a non-sequitur to my argumentation.
U excessively overestimate validity and quality of your questions, because all of them rhetorical
You tend to get a lot of questions that are rhetorical in nature when someone is challenging your rhetoric, yes.
One singular person's experience isn't proof. The premise of your demand itself is faulty, and it's ridiculous to expect that anyone is obligated to dance to whatever whims you have. Not to mention that it was a non-sequitur to my argumentation.
The issue is that that all of your arguement about PTB - that u find every incentives fair and new system balanced, yet can’t prove it besides hypothetical speech. Just be honest - did u even play that PTB? On both sides. Did you encounter team that matches your skill?
U also told about 40% rate being underpowered. Yet u ignore that it is soloQ and devs aiming at that number for the average play. So IT SHOULD BE as it is now and tunneling or solo Q doesn’t stop u for having this average number. U can’t provide 50% escape rate for solo without making gameplay stupidly lazy on survivor side to the point u get handholded, because this solo Q heavily ignore any meaningful matchmake and usually show the worst gameplay u can possibly imagine out of possible.
U can’t buff all killers at the same time just because majority of these killers are belong to the bottom of tier list AND u can't nerf all killers just because majority playing solo Q. U either touch something specific, or don’t touch already broken thing at all.
The only way to create “balance” u wish to see - making game even more broken on top play, and complete lack of skill from survivor side, encourage stagnation of progressing and babysitting. Having endurance for 30 seconds requires even less skill than tunnel. It requires NOTHING and cost NOTHING for average player being bad. And seeing u tell about impossibility to win the game even with antitunnel perks and “hypothetically” compare tunneling with perks that works as auto kill shows why u so craving for such “balance”. No wonder why u avoid showing your gameplay and start to find another excuse about irrelevance of personal experience (even if it's your own lol). It’s not about my whims (because u simply unable to satisfy it), it’s just because u can’t find actual basis of proving your own words beside rhetorical questions and hypothetical speech. I told u. I have game records. I can show them, but only when question I asked first would be answered first.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004069#Comment_4004069
So you're going to reject a perfectly valid question because of a grudge you have with me personally?
But just to say - when u cancel any proposes of actually meaningful QoL due to existence of bottom of fanbase because they are toxic
I haven't shot anything down here, I asked how you want to accomplish it. @cogsturning highlights a very real concern with self-selection: What's to stop a killer (or a swiffer, for that matter) from dropping into the casual queue, kitted to the gills and sweating their behinds off for a landslide win?
So you're going to reject a perfectly valid question because of a grudge you have with me personally?
- I answered on your question, but I’m pretty sure it wont satisfy u, because your own grudge interferes with adequate dialogue much more, why I simply avoid waste of my emotions on such people
- U rejected valid ask to prove your words by video of your gameplay and still aggressively avoid it by asking more questions (while mine left unanswered), playing in words equilibria
- U excessively overestimate validity and quality of your questions, because all of them rhetorical
I think I have enough reasons for finding you pretty disrespectful person, and it is definitely better just ignore you as much as you ignore something I ask about. Yep
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004033#Comment_4004033
Maybe you should at least try to do something for separating them
What do you suggest?
Because I don't think self-sorting is going to do the trick when this community also had bubbas focusing black characters.
On other post I asked u to share with your PTB gameplay. So I can at least understand what u comprehend by “balanced” PTB incentives and fair pace of match between players with same skill. But u dodged, ignoring the fact that my offer was the first. When a demand is met with a counter-demand in an attempt to avoid having to answer for words, my desire to discuss anything with such people is reduced to zero. I already told u - I’m not going to invest in comments to discuss something with u
When my words getting neglected as soon as it stops being convenient to answer on it, I simply avoid to talk. Because more words from me would be neglected, and more answers from u would be rain down on my head
But just to say - when u cancel any proposes of actually meaningful QoL due to existence of bottom of fanbase because they are toxic, at the same time demanding other QoL for the same bottom tier like Solo Q who sandbaggs each other, constantly DC and usually even don’t run meta despite their vulnerable position, nothing actually meaningful in so called QoL will appear
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004033#Comment_4004033
And instead of trying to fight it like a plague, it would be a good idea to start trying to make the game evolve around it.
You mean like the parts of the patch that were trying to do that? With ideas like basekit OTR/Elusive and BBQ?
Artificially making match longer, where u clearly don’t experience anything except of huge disappointment from the game MMR?
Because the point of a game is to play, not to just win in two seconds and leave. What is the purpose of that? If every game was three minutes long would you even play? Because I wouldn't.
Because every match where hooks were spreading, it was either player stomping anyway and making unpleasant match even more longer, or killer struggled from the start and outcome is still evident.
Every single one, huh? They always end as a one sided stomp? Because, on my end, these are the closest matches. Hooks spread, gens pop, and everything comes down to the last gen or end game. That's way more thrilling than tunneling out the first unlucky person you see at 5gens to skew things in your favor.
They may consider it unfair when survivors hides for 10 minutes, deliberately avoiding any interaction for the sake of the hatch, just because sitting in a bush requires nothing rather than being in chase.
Pretty sure almost everyone who isn't a rat, whether survivor or killler, agrees that ratting is trash. So yeah, agreed.
Maybe you should at least try to do something for separating them, instead of justifying lack of actions that some player might go and satisfy their ego by playing against less experienced players
So the honor system? The game's already rather lacking in the honor dept. This needs to be done with a drastically better MMR that puts the correct people together, not with trust and goodwill.
The simple fact is a whole lot of people are unhappy. If you have a product where the majority consumer (since survivors are 80% of a match) is heavily unhappy, you might have to change it. If people try your product, say "I hate this" and leave, you aren't thriving. It's that simple. A product doesn't survive if it's audience dwindles from discontent. If they're trying to address it, it's clearly an issue.
You mean like the parts of the patch that were trying to do that? With ideas like basekit OTR/Elusive and BBQ?
This changes don’t play around macro, and moreover, don't evolve around tunneling theme. It's hand holding on both sides to encourage mindless face unhooks and auto pilot chases. It's evolve around massive skill issue from average player, because BHVR for all these 9 years created generical perks system that completely discourge even an attempt to think in a trial. It's bs calling something like nerfed BBQ a good incentive and progressive play, because it's doing completely opposite. Same with haste and pop incentives.
Every single one, huh?
Show me such game. It's not thrilling when 4 survivors failling in basic efficiency so killer have time to spread hooks. Such survivors either worse compared to killer in chase, or in efficiency. It's just u wish to picture it, because your faithful picture of fairness shatters as soon as u see actually skillful survivors who even without comms can accomplish basic objective.
The simple fact is a whole lot of people are unhappy. If you have a product where the majority consumer (since survivors are 80% of a match) is heavily unhappy, you might have to change it.
You overestimate numbers of people that share your mindset, because it's forum with limited bias. People who giving u likes and loudly say approve are literal the same on every post, and u have mutual uncoucious agreement between each other. When PTB started, the people like u who supported this generic changes were in minority and still are. On every other media or even some local discord servers opinion of majority were completely different. You also ignore experience of playerbase from other servers, because for example in CIS or Asia almost NO ONE share your mindset.
Majority can be unpleased by many reasons. I’m also unhappy despite still having opportunity to tunnel. Because again, now I’m playing against perks and not players, MMR and RGN doesn’t make sense still and bugs are starting to be unforgivable. Being as unhappy as you doesn’t mean I share your point of view. This 80% of unhappy people u talking about includes different players and believe me, nor mine nor yours bias doesn't correlate with theirs. It was flaw of post with people who said tunneling is valid, now it’s flaw of posts with people telling about tunneling fatigue. It’s cyclic. Even among my friends, there are completely polar opinions about why they think the game is not fun for them. So, stop pretending your approach is the most faithful one, because it’s based on ignorance of PvP, challenges, and heavily focus on perception of your own fun. It's just your opinion, and not me, not you, shouldn't manipulate with “but majority approve my view”. Because it's a lie.
So the honor system? The game's already rather lacking in the honor dept. This needs to be done with a drastically better MMR that puts the correct people together, not with trust and goodwill.
Providing daily rank mode with limited time for few hours in peak hours can help without drastically affecting queues if code it properly. It also can introduce more tight system for servers. But the problem, BHVR can’t create this, because it requires major rework of everything and even bans for specific stuff, which doesn't correlate with their policy of “freedom and will”. Somehow the only limiting the way how majority plays is their only excuse to break policy.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004027#Comment_4004027
The easy way out that killers almost always find first?
Now hatch spawns are a secret offering. Main building is the best solution if u want a free win
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003956#Comment_4003956
I didn't say anything about ties. I play to win. I just remember my opponenets are human and that none of this is very important so I don't need to do things that are known to make people miserable over a game. But I also care more about what goes on in the match than the outcome. The outcome is just numbers.
What's the point of a clean sweep acquired with trashy tactics? You didn't really earn a win through skill and cunning, you didnt really outplay them, you just exploited a bad system. I don't feel "handcuffed" by choosing to go for the unhooker rather than the unhooked. Both are a choice. I'm just not exploiting that bad system. I feel much more accomplished playing with good sportsmanship and winning. If I slug everyone at 5 gens I feel like I did nothing.
Many people have fun playing on their max, many people have fun playing chill, so maybe it’s reasonable to separate them instead of trying to force mindset they don’t share?
How though? The only way to do this is to have different buffers in place at different MMRs. Because if you have a sweat lobby and a chill lobby the sweats will just go to the chill lobby and smash the chill players.
If the game matchmakes players with killer who can slug or tunnel on 5 gens the player, it basically means this matchmakes never should happen. Because it can be everything - skill difference, extremely bad RGN, but not the fault of the player. If every survivor goes down in few seconds of the chase, do really player who playing other role have to spend his time on this match longer than needed? Why responsibility of the game provide fair challenge and good conditions is transferred on the shoulders of simple player? Artificially making match longer, where u clearly don’t experience anything except of huge disappointment from the game MMR?
For you, it's a trash tactic, for others, a valid strategy. Players aren't informed whether they're playing bad solo or against someone else. Everyone knows that numbers prevail, and so in an asymmetrical game, the four-player side will always have an initial advantage. Everyone knows there's only one killer in the game, and effective survivors are the only ones who truly control the game's balance. Killers are also well aware of the number of second-chance perks that give a second wind literally if their opponent loses, and they also may consider this unfair and trash tactic. They may consider it unfair when survivors hides for 10 minutes, deliberately avoiding any interaction for the sake of the hatch, just because sitting in a bush requires nothing rather than being in chase.
They may think of trash tactics as gen rushes when they've completed a standard chase in a minute, and they're down to 3-2 gens, after wich players like u gonna remind them they have to play "not according to trash tactics."
From perspective of survivor , I don’t feel anything in matches where half of the game I press m1 and leave. Because every match where hooks were spreading, it was either player stomping anyway and making unpleasant match even more longer, or killer struggled from the start and outcome is still evident. As survivor player, my personal fun is getting it through tight interaction with killer and when I feel I can be punished for mistakes, so game incentives playing me more careful. As survivor player, I have fun in efficiency and short outcomes, so the issue is when I play efficient, killers can’t allow himself to spread hooks, he’ll more likely lose no matter skill, because micro + macro is overperforming pure micro play. My fun in challenge that force me to learn loop better, but who I am to ask for my fun, indeed.It's time to understand that what you consider trash and a lack of player empathy is very relative. The fact that you're trying to tie game outcomes and victories to the perception of player personality is trash for me, for example. It's trash when, instead of finally forcing BHVR to balance killers’ abilities and make the average game so that even a calm player doesn't have to face someone who's truly playing to win, they're blaming one side or the other. If, damn it, people started tunneling, and it's been going on for nine years, and it's a widespread phenomenon, then there must be some sense to it. And instead of trying to fight it like a plague, it would be a good idea to start trying to make the game evolve around it.
Because if you have a sweat lobby and a chill lobby the sweats will just go to the chill lobby and smash the chill players.
This argument is truly tiresome. Instead of even trying to create a satisfying environment for players, they're forced to come up with the worst-case scenario as excuse. As if the same thing isn't happening now. As if people don't write from time to time about some sweats and how annoying they are to the average player. Maybe you should at least try to do something for separating them, instead of justifying lack of actions that some player might go and satisfy their ego by playing against less experienced players. Maybe just try. Well, or, in principle, then it’s time to stop complaining that some player comes into the lobby to play by the rules of soulless efficiency, and not your mood at all. But in the end, we choose the third option - to complain and demand primitive solutions in the form of calling entire part of player base trash and toxic. Classic.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003908#Comment_4003908
This is the problem with the ptb, and ptbs in general. Aside from the fact that a massive chunk of the player base is automatically excluded, a whole bunch of sweats and content creators were logging on to see how far they could exploit. How much meaningful data about the average, everyday match can you gain from that?
It should natter. It's just a game. You don't need to smash other people so you can have some stats or something. There's no prize or trophy, just fun or frustration.
Many people loading up in PvP game with the thought they would actually smash their opponents. It’s a joy of PvP genre and their fun/frustration. The issue DBD failed in providing fair challenges, so average player plays against system rather than player. On both sides. And instead of fixing it, many people ask for making it more severe. More systematic limitations, base kit buff for simply completing objective or even hand handling in losing. The same mindset that creates characters like Ghoul with auto hit scan or another second chance on top of second chance on survivor.
It’s just weird calling game PvP, provide some hints on mythical MMR and then expecting people care about fun of their opponents more than their own. Especially when media of the game heavily orients on challenges and sweating. Of course if it’s PvP there, sweats will take a big part of player base.
Looking at stuff which is most popular, it shows average player care about making game l a mix of competition factor with funny builds and their variability, rather than abstract fun u are always talking about where games finishes as tie just because killer/survivor babysitting other side, handcuffing themselves. Many people have fun playing on their max, many people have fun playing chill, so maybe it’s reasonable to separate them instead of trying to force mindset they don’t share?
“Fun” can have many different forms. Fun can mean to have a trophy, and in PvP genre, this trophy is a win. Assymetrical genre of DBD doesn’t cancel it out. U won’t be happy with it, but because it’s PvP, this fun usually meant for being earned through outplaying your opponent. The DBD issue is instead of outplaying opponents, killers outplay efficiency and survivors outplay unbalanced RGN and zero organisation in solo q, fighting with system rather than player. Tunneling appeared due to this. Tunneling fatigue appeared due to this. It’s a cycle of responding and u can’t remove something from this chain without breaking it.U would be surprised, but playing for spreading hooks and play as chase machine on auto pilot relying only on your opponent being worse (which shouldn’t happen in any healthy game) just for some base kit buffs instead of paying attention to macro and having actually challenging chases can be as same not fun as playing for 3vs1 with auto-pilot tunneling 10 games in a row. Depends on people’s preferences.
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Somehow I don’t play dbd a lot anymore but TWD map is really popular for me when I play as survivor. One day I was send there two times in a row
As survivor I’m kinda lucky to get Gideon, Garden of Joy, Gas station. The only “bad” map I see usually is Coldwind or Midwich. But I like Midwich tbh
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I would like to see more content and updated models/voice lines on already existing chapters. It was a period I really wanted to hear some voice lines on characters like Legion, Ghostface or Clown, some updated animations/chase music. Not every character should speak - I can’t really imagine Nurse or Artist/Wraith speaking anyway, but some characters miss half of their potential staying silent
Now I don’t really wanna buy anything new, their last chapters seems no entertaining for me anymore, same Krasue disappointed me when I played PTB.
DLC I wish like Marble Hornets or SCP (specifically 049/035 or 106 considering they are pretty popular and the concepts of their powers can be new for the game) would never be possible for this game anyway due to IP. And honestly, it’s good. I don’t want to see another teleportation/ primitive projectile or dash on characters from there -
Making him not applying deep wound is already enough for me. He doesn’t need this slowdown
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People will remind u tunnelling being too oppressive and undodgable on low MMR.
IMO, some anti gen rush perks design extremely poor. Like any anti gen with skill checks basis or deadlock/corrupt intervention. Yet scourge hook (if not combining with dms), eruption and grim embrace being good perks and we need more of them. But still - people will remind u that u have to balance around low solo q because it’s not a problem of absence of communication in team, sandbaggers, game instruction being unclear so it’s hard to learn about 40 killers and more than 200 perks and 0 feel about being responsible for your teammates, but tunneling. And because solo q always struggles to split up, we can’t get something more meaningful to incentivise spreading hooks and tunnel less because such incentives actually enough in good play.
Same position doesn’t really correlate with killer powers and generators as main objective tho
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They need to get rid of their habit of making everything a crunch time and review the workflow of each department they have
This game is about anything rarher than playing PvP. Players with different intentions in match, perks as crutch, playing against “anti” or broken power rather than player itself, unclear stats, unclear RGN, unclear matchmaking, zero competency when PvP genre suppose this so called competency. This game is casual despite being overloaded with generic systems and stuff, which creates ridiculous tribalism. Playing as survivor is straightforward boring at all and hard on solo Q, if not meaningless
And all of this was created by them at first
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003884#Comment_4003884
She has more issues than I can keep track of so that’s why I have reported every single one into a big report with a video attached.
Patience is an understatement, thank you very much though xDIt has been a journey of A LOT of cussing 🤣😅
These issues screw me over so much but I am faithful to the character.
I still don’t know why we rework Myers or Trickster while she or Twins exist. This lady needs emergency aid for sure, it’s so frustrating to play against her as well, because this bugs breaks good timing and u can’t get used to her power because of inconsistency. I want to like her, but I can’t no matter side I’m playing. Snug cuteness and good vibes from her mains is the only reason I still have empathy to this broken killer.
Hope she’ll deserve some attention at least next year… Now, I silently curse my life when facing her, especially if it’s some map with weird textures or collision like Toba or Pizzeria -
Is Snug’s hitbox is still inconsistent and can’t actually hug tiles well, sometimes stucking? And what about the quality of “search” snap to the gen and the pathing Snug creates?
I tried Hound Master once and it was the only reason I decided I won’t play her anymore. U have great patience to main her, I’m impressed. -
My sprintburst shows I have highest escape rate with this perk. When u master to 99 it, it hugely damage any killers with low mobility. As killer who main low mobility or weak chase killers, welp, I also understand how it actually feels
Lithe is in a golden middle. Not so skill related to help u gain max of value + natural way of vault condition already creates some “fence” between u and killer. Double free distance
DH for me is overrated. Really ping related, and can shine only on actualy cracked players. Yet when u use this perk it can literally gift u a win. With balanced landing it’s a good tho.
Dramaturgy heavily overrated. Smash hit situational, overcome underrated.
If u lose too much distance even when triggered haste against average 4.6 killer it can be caused by poor pathing. U use it as way to reach constructions, so it should have meaning when and why u trigger exhaustion . When I use something like balanced landing, I scout map and work on gens which dangerous for others, but safe for me. Then double W to some loop.
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Would u like to try some challenges on the way of p100? I tried it myself, playing 100 games with one perk on Executioner, and feel my way from p20 to p30 despite being long made me finally understanding his mechanics. 50 more games left and I hope I’ll be able to p 40-50 him.
For Rebecca I had other challenge with altruism build. It just makes the way of prestiging more meaningful and beside some hours of grind I also see how my skill grows.
Anyway, gl for your own way to play. Huge respect for Artist
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003857#Comment_4003857
The point is SWFs can be nerfed.
You don’t like the solutions, but they would nerf SWFs. Yes, it would be really difficult to nerf SWF efficiency, which is why the reasonable solution would involve nerfing other things SWFs do better.
They won’t change whole picture. But whatever, we can at least start with small changes. Just doubt people will accept them even. Current sentiment evolves around killers have to be nerfed, another contribution, even when it’ll affect mainly sfw will be the last drop of their patience.
Post above proved me enough what such players actually wish to see. They not satisfied with 50% winrate in sfw from player who already has such results playing less then 1k, they expect to see above 40% on solo q despite the same solo having a tendency doing mistakes which is completely their and not killer fault. People wants other role being freely punished and themselves handholded in case of losing, while they consciously put them in disadvantage, playing solo q and complaining on need to bring perks and play to counterplay. It’s like, complaining playing trapper against efficient comms. Like why people have even audacity to think that they should have free bypass from opponents, doing nothing themselves and choosing weakest tools, expecting the whole game evolve around the bottom of balance. They even see problem in tunneling, but can’t provide worthy compensation. Because again, for me such people don’t want challenge. They crave for abstract fun with no contribution from their side.
And now we talking about some perks nerfs for SFW like it’ll contribute meaningfully. Same coin from me, just other side.I just got tired from this community. Honestly. The speech around nerfs will be relentless. It’s just pull and tag war. Probably I have to quit completely or switch to ladder if majority of community have such mindset. Tried to make a meaningful post, but it was all wiped away from doomposting and “more nerfs” rant under comment section. Even now I doompost, just giving up. This is real plague
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003852#Comment_4003852
Do you think SWFs use hook denial more than solo q?
I think sfws use it more, but I don’t find hook denial main issue of me losing. I can’t dodge teams only when they play in pub scream or comp manner - just loop good, play safe and split up.
I literally had 3 games in a row two days ago where so called sfws tried sabo, boil over and background player. They all died on 5-3 gens or were 4 slugged within few minutes. Such sfws suffer from lack of skill by ignoring main objective or excessive altruism and it kills them. It’s extremely annoying so, but really few people properly use such opportunities.
Yet every SFW I played against and lost were splitting up and bodyblocking/baiting if needed. I do it myself when play SFW and it’s much more oppressive because u just abuse your quantity superiority. That’s where imbalance of assym genre calls for me. It’s a hook denial u can’t adjust by perk nerfs. Here is the main point. Perks always works either as crutches , either counterplay, and simply nerfing them won’t fix itWe need remove this silly “nerfs” “punishments” “anti system” terms from our dictionary. I am honestly tired from people instead of incentivising/encouraging good play demand of blind nerfs of your opponents. It became so silly when it reaches boiling point where we already are
Feels like people just don’t want to compete and wait for other side be handicapped just “but, but! imaging worst scenario over as arguement”
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003842#Comment_4003842
Nerfing the perks is fine. A lot of them are rarely used in solo q anyway.
And hook denial absolutely is used way more in SWFs, and is the easiest way to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF. And when the anti-slugging mechanics comes back, this is the perfect way to make sure slugging is actually fair for both sides. Killers should not be punished for slugging, if the survivors forced the killer to slug. So if any meaningful anti-slugging changes are going to be added to the game, then there should be changes to ensure the killer could have hooked the survivor instead of slugging.
Maybe we just have different experience encountering different SFWs. On CIS and around region the most aggressive play u can see doesn’t include uncounterable hook denial. Second chances perks hit more than some sfw one
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003755#Comment_4003755
- Nerf perks that perform way better with voice comms than they do in solo q.
- Nerf hook denial, since SWFs do that way more often than solo q.
The point is, it's completely fine if a change nerfs SWF heavily, and only nerfs solo q bit a little, because the overall change is bridging the gap between solo q and SWF.
I can’t imagine nerf of such perks unfortunately, because many people will start to complain on “fun” and teamplay factor. Something like straight compensation of tunneling redundancy instead of placebo nerfed base kits already makes such people extremely sensitive if judging by posts above, so idk how u can explain people u can't deny hook by sabo or some head-on
What about chain of takin hits? U can’t forbid SFW to cover their teammate by not throwing their bodies for example. It's not related to perks. And I’m pretty sure the actual problem of sfw is their efficiency. I never struggles as killer too much against sfw with “hook denial”. Just splitting is already enough to completely change tone of the match
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I think invocation on its own should be completely reworked… broken effect is the worst thing ever u have and no reward can compensate it without making this perk broken
This is not happening sounds great tho. But it would more likely to work with comms only. In solo survivors have a tendency of Insta unhook for whatever reason
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The way how this vacancy were written and Mandy’s respond on its own concerted me more. It's not what do u expect from actual Senior Full Stack to do and the skills are definitely focusing on something more than internal work processes and related to games.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003800#Comment_4003800
U can manipulate over and over this statement. U still trying to manipulate with “it’s semantic” about risk, while u compare unreliable strat A to reliable strat B, after which put comparison with imaginable perks that god damn it kill whole survivor from the start. Every of your sentence is exaggerate play. Of course when u exaggerating tunneling risk won’t matter for u. Because in proportion instead of 50/50 or 60/40 to tunnel strategy u see 90/10. U yourself fighting with your own grudge, because didn’t have experience of play where tunnel doesn’t secure wins. It’s your own sentiment here fighting with “risk” definition.
You didn't understand a thing I wrote, did you?
Do you understand the concept of a hypothetical?
It’s not +15% to base actual pop kit. Because it’s current progression.
Pop Goes the Weasel is also current progression. And it has been for over three years now.
If u actually genuinely believe such changes are “balanced” - prove me.
Why don't you prove that they were unbalanced?
Why is it the standard on these forums that killer players can just pull whatever out of where-the-sun-don't-shine and survivors have to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to have an opinion?
It's the exact dogma that I mentioned earlier.
The problem, nor you not other people who supported this PTB had such games.
Prove it, then. Prove that no one had a balanced match.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003803#Comment_4003803
The reason u talk about road life instead of one, two, three just shows how u were poorly acknowledged with PTB actually. Stacking this with hyperfocus or aitodidact were giving u unbelievable boost to both heal and gen efficiency.
Conveniently omitting 15 seconds of doing nothing first. It's also hardly the first of its kind with a directly comparable perk in Deadline, which no one picks because it's terrible.
New exhaustion perk buffed vigil and lightweight, made this combos new meta for sprint and stealth play.
That's shifting the goalposts.
Prove it, then. Prove that no one had a balanced match.
Nuh. It doesn't work like this. I first explained why not, u tried to dodge. I asked for record prooves first. Your train were missed. But don’t worry, as I remember I had a showcase of me playing against Crasue in solo, where both killer and two other of my teammates were good. The third one DC, but new “fair” system made it responsibility of a killer, so yes.
But I’ll show it when u will show your own.
You didn't understand a thing I wrote, did you?
Do you understand the concept of a hypothetical?
It seems u just lack of words now and only thing that left is rhetorical speech. I don’t enjoy hypothetical speech on this forum, because no matter side, this “hypothesis” always ignores ideal conditions - of good player and balanced RGN existence. U yourself ignore it, because tried to compare tunneling with that weird perk. Because it seems u genuinely believe they are equal in so called ideal conditions. So on this stage, is just a sentiment.
Conveniently omitting 15 seconds of doing nothing first. It's also hardly the first of its kind with a directly comparable perk in Deadline, which no one picks because it's terrible.
This 15 seconds later last for more than just one gen. I were doing this when killer were using deadlock/grim embrace to dodge my time lose lol, so again, did u even played PTB yourself releasing full potential of new builds? U can finish two gens while this perk is active. It can ask 15 seconds in duo and 45 alone to do gen in good conditions. U can finish the gen before toolbox will be over in not really ideal conditions, but the most important- u can lessen the risky time staying on dangerous gen killer patrolling . Same with autodidact. U can “waste” 15 seconds while u waiting your teammate to find u through empathic connection and after this u can get the easiest 5 stacks in your life. I simply warned my duo about me coming to his part of the map and he was ready for healing me in ridiculous speed. The way u are comparing actually good perk to deadline, again, show your great love of exaggeration in your own favor, using false equivalence as cheap way to dodge argument.
That's shifting the goalposts
No, u just wish to ignore good stuff u already have because it doesn't correlate with your sentiment, at the same time pointing “BUT BASE POP”. So. The only reason while this pop is still used by killers and it considers as meta because u don't have alternative and numerous times many meta gen regression was nerfed, except of dms. Because survivors complained on low efficiency and tunneling at same time. But when tunneling completely gone, this pop wasn't returned to at least base state even. It's not even 40% of current progression, even when u combine base kit with slot u wasted. Nothing actually were compensated, it was cheap placebo. But for killers nothing in their builds actually changed. No meta shift - just acceptance of L situation when u are about to face interesting opponents, because now the only u can compete against is survivors who 100% play worse than u. Equality factor gone completely when it was already on thin edge.
Why is it the standard on these forums that killer players can just pull whatever out of where-the-sun-don't-shine and survivors have to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to have an opinion?
Were u looking at your own words, when claimed already existing anti tunnel perks isn’t enough? Were u looking at your words, claiming it is so unbelievably hard to counter tunneling when I showed u my stats (which u conveniently ignored)? Nuh. Because again - it’s all killer fault. Killer is so evil he use only actual strategy that gives him chances against good players to win, killers is so evil just because they don’t believe 8 base kits over 3 is fair position, killer is so evil just because they have other sentiment. Your words are backfire heavily u rn.
I’m having more hours on survivor. I just not trying to force game evolve around bad players and I believe we already have tools, people just don’t know how to use it or messy RGN and bugs spoil it over. I’m not pure killer main, so your loud claims devaluate itself again. On ptb I played survivor mainly. On normal q I play more survivor than killer. Over two months I had around 150 matches as survivor and 50 on killer. In solo, in duo, in 3 sfw, in 4 sfw. Mainly duo and solo, but now I decided to quit solo because after 2v8 end I see more sandbagging teammates in average queue.
Tunnel will stay easy as soon as players like u spread this. U contibute yourself to this system, and even level up the tension of tribalism. I tried to speak differently - asked for actual compensation or balancing on all levels, if u really wish this approach overall gone. But as u showed, your sentiment blur the vision of reaching good tools and necessity of what we have already to play around it. So, u ask and pray for this meaningless tribalism and it’s the only way to speak with u.
As with other person above, I don’t see point to invest in such speech. GL for next. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003765#Comment_4003765
The term 'risky' is always comparative.
What you are arguing for, with the absolute probabilistic sense of the word 'risk', is pure semantics. It is unusable in any kind of argumentation. You can't defend tunnelling with the claim that it is 'risky' so long as your definition of 'risky' is that it doesn't have a 100% win rate, because even the most overpowered stuff in the game would qualify as being 'risky' with that definition.
Having a perk that just instantly kills one survivor for free upon loading in would be considered 'risky' under your argumentation.
Do you understand?
This discussion isn't going anywhere so long as you're arguing on this concept of the term 'risky'.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003769#Comment_4003769
You contradict yourself.
No I don't.
But this IS gameplay impact. U can’t ignore stuff, that literally IMPACT.
Winning or losing barely impact it. You can argue that there's incentives involved with it, but I'm not staring myself blind on what the results screen says at the end of the match, I'm focused on what happens within the match. And in that regard, tunnelling is wrecking gameplay.
You can win against a tunnelling killer and still have a terrible time compared to losing against a killer that doesn't tunnel.
My post noted the reason of PTB buffs wasn’t enough.
I disagree with those too, but that's irrelevant to our current discussion.
Because nerfed 3 perks on base kit + nerfed all optional regression + limitation of HUD info + complete remove of tunneling on a level it makes no sense for gameplay were provided at the same time with buffed gen rush and heal thanks to new perk + 8 base kits for survivor + rework of optional perks that buffs already OP base kit + side bonuses when literally losing for additional % to the repair bonuses.
The nerf to regression perks is something BHVR learned from a past mistake. When killers got a basekit action speed buff, they didn't do any compensatory rebalancing to interacting perks.
Plenty of killers have expressed that they feel pigeonholed into taking gen regression. These changes basekit a portion of that gen regression, but if they didn't adjust the gen regression perks, they would stack together to create something oppressive. This is what happened with STBFL, which eventually stacked so high that it made hook rescues virtually impossible.
Stacking the basekit with the regression perk would still see an overall buff, just slightly less. However, if you decide to use something other than regression perks, the basekit buff would make the biggest impact. In this way, BHVR levels the playing field a little bit between the perks that killers complain about being forced to take, and other options. They're boosting the overall power level of all builds, while slightly tempering the boost they give to the specific builds that have been dominating the meta.
This is actually just good design.
buffed gen rush and heal thanks to new perk
You mean the one where you need to land 6 great skill checks while repairing a gen while injured? And then it gets you boosted healing speed for one heal?
I doubt it even competes with Botany. We'll Make It certainly blows it out of the water. And it certainly doesn't do anything to boost gen speeds.
nerfed 3 perks on base kit + nerfed all optional regression
8 base kits for survivor + rework of optional perks that buffs already OP base kit
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TTZRXQJ2CTP2/us-vs-tehm.jpg
No mention of the survivor basekits being nerfed versions, and the rework of Off the Record ripped off its endurance in its entirety. And unlike with the killer side of things, you can't balance them out. While Pop + Basekit is 15% higher than it used to be, OTR + Basekit is 50 seconds shorter than it used to be.
You're not looking at this level-headed at all.
About quoting:
“Stop treating it as objective opinion when it’s built around of mindless punishments and lasy buffs.
And
“You neglect high play”
No. I'm not too concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling. I want tunnelling goneYeah, that quote doesn't say what you say it does. Again, you are fighting out some kind of grudge you have with me and you're having an argument with a voice in your head that you attribute to me. But it's nothing I have said.
So, talking about risks, u were continuously admitting that now - it’s
onlyway to win on level of play when u compete against people who knows how to play this game. U admit that, but u talking this strategy should gone.I have made no such admission. It is a premise you have asserted. I haven't refuted it because I don't need to in order to expose a problem with your argumentation. This assertion of yours conflicts with your other assertion that tunnelling is 'risky'.
I am, in fact, more inclined to believe that tunnelling is risky than that it is the only way to win, but the point is that you can't hold both of these assertions at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.
EITHER
Tunnelling is the only avenue to a win, which makes choosing to employ it not a risky choice at all
OR
Tunnelling is risky, because you risk losing in a situation that you could otherwise win.
The reason I haven't refuted your claim that tunnelling is the only way to win at high level is because reasonably, if you choose to take the position that tunnelling is 'risky', you have to drop the assertion that tunnelling is the only way to win, yourself.
Alongside with this, u
neverprovided alternative. 3 NERFED base kits from PTB while u removing the only way to get a win - not the buff nor the compensation. U never talked under this thread about actual compensation after removing strategy u find problematic.Because this is the point where I actually reject the premise. I don't agree that tunnelling is the only way to win, and I do think that the buffs are impactful and meaningful. These naturally push the game towards more spread pressure, which is the obvious alternative to tunnelling.
Not u, not BHVR, not every other person provided meaningful compensation to this
Problem is that you are the sole arbiter of what you consider to be meaningful. So if anyone disagrees with you, then they are, to your mind, 'objectively wrong'. At which point any suggestion I make would be inherently shot down because we disagree about the level of imbalance.
After all, anything I could suggest would adhere to your definition of 'risky', and something tells me you wouldn't accept that.
What to say, if decisive strike were severely “nerfed” by your opinion, when the only difference in 1 sec of stun
As a reminder, the survivor themselves are also stunned by DS due to the animation lock. That 5 second stun amounted to roughly three seconds of distance, so cutting the stun duration by 1 second is a nerf of 33%.
That's pretty hefty. It's certainly heavier than the proposed nerf to Pop in this patch, and DS didn't have any counterbalancing basekit buffs when it got nerfed back down to stack with.
Tunneling can meaningfully gone only in one case - where this game will stop be 1 vs 4 or survivors will be completely deprived of the right to deny someone down in chase by second chance perks or save from team. Which is straightforward impossible, because u can’t forbid person to take a hit even when u remove collision, ptb proved it. Until survivors can deny hook pressure by gen rush or team play, tunneling would stay as most viable strategy.
This assertion is also distinctly untrue.
If, say, the killer got a 50% total gen progress pain res for every unique hook, and hooking a survivor twice in a row would immediately open the exit gates, you haven't done anything to nerf gen rush or team play, but tunnelling most definitely isn't the most viable strategy anymore.
Now, such numbers are obviously extreme and unworkable, but it shows that the premise for the PTB is perfectly workable. You can argue about the balance of it, but to claim that it has absolutely zero chance of succeeding is a fool's position.
You do touch upon something that is interesting though, which is prevalence of hook denial. And on that, I agree that it needs to be toned down. (Not 'second chance perks', those are tunnelling specific, no reason to nerf them) Again, similarly, I don't care about the balance outcome of rampant hook denial, I care about the gameplay aspect of it. It is awful to play against, so I want it gone. However, I also feel like I'm the only one with that opinion since it's never brought up as an issue for killers on its own merit, but always in response to survivor QoL, which is why I don't bother making suggestions with regards to it.
You mean the one where you need to land 6 great skill checks while repairing a gen while injured? And then it gets you boosted healing speed for one heal?
The reason u talk about road life instead of one, two, three just shows how u were poorly acknowledged with PTB actually. Stacking this with hyperfocus or aitodidact were giving u unbelievable boost to both heal and gen efficiency. New exhaustion perk buffed vigil and lightweight, made this combos new meta for sprint and stealth play. And because survivors weren't afraid of tunnel/slug, the build on PTB were on exploitable level without killer being able to even counter it.
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003765#Comment_4003765
The term 'risky' is always comparative.
What you are arguing for, with the absolute probabilistic sense of the word 'risk', is pure semantics. It is unusable in any kind of argumentation. You can't defend tunnelling with the claim that it is 'risky' so long as your definition of 'risky' is that it doesn't have a 100% win rate, because even the most overpowered stuff in the game would qualify as being 'risky' with that definition.
Having a perk that just instantly kills one survivor for free upon loading in would be considered 'risky' under your argumentation.
Do you understand?
This discussion isn't going anywhere so long as you're arguing on this concept of the term 'risky'.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003769#Comment_4003769
You contradict yourself.
No I don't.
But this IS gameplay impact. U can’t ignore stuff, that literally IMPACT.
Winning or losing barely impact it. You can argue that there's incentives involved with it, but I'm not staring myself blind on what the results screen says at the end of the match, I'm focused on what happens within the match. And in that regard, tunnelling is wrecking gameplay.
You can win against a tunnelling killer and still have a terrible time compared to losing against a killer that doesn't tunnel.
My post noted the reason of PTB buffs wasn’t enough.
I disagree with those too, but that's irrelevant to our current discussion.
Because nerfed 3 perks on base kit + nerfed all optional regression + limitation of HUD info + complete remove of tunneling on a level it makes no sense for gameplay were provided at the same time with buffed gen rush and heal thanks to new perk + 8 base kits for survivor + rework of optional perks that buffs already OP base kit + side bonuses when literally losing for additional % to the repair bonuses.
The nerf to regression perks is something BHVR learned from a past mistake. When killers got a basekit action speed buff, they didn't do any compensatory rebalancing to interacting perks.
Plenty of killers have expressed that they feel pigeonholed into taking gen regression. These changes basekit a portion of that gen regression, but if they didn't adjust the gen regression perks, they would stack together to create something oppressive. This is what happened with STBFL, which eventually stacked so high that it made hook rescues virtually impossible.
Stacking the basekit with the regression perk would still see an overall buff, just slightly less. However, if you decide to use something other than regression perks, the basekit buff would make the biggest impact. In this way, BHVR levels the playing field a little bit between the perks that killers complain about being forced to take, and other options. They're boosting the overall power level of all builds, while slightly tempering the boost they give to the specific builds that have been dominating the meta.
This is actually just good design.
buffed gen rush and heal thanks to new perk
You mean the one where you need to land 6 great skill checks while repairing a gen while injured? And then it gets you boosted healing speed for one heal?
I doubt it even competes with Botany. We'll Make It certainly blows it out of the water. And it certainly doesn't do anything to boost gen speeds.
nerfed 3 perks on base kit + nerfed all optional regression
8 base kits for survivor + rework of optional perks that buffs already OP base kit
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TTZRXQJ2CTP2/us-vs-tehm.jpg
No mention of the survivor basekits being nerfed versions, and the rework of Off the Record ripped off its endurance in its entirety. And unlike with the killer side of things, you can't balance them out. While Pop + Basekit is 15% higher than it used to be, OTR + Basekit is 50 seconds shorter than it used to be.
You're not looking at this level-headed at all.
About quoting:
“Stop treating it as objective opinion when it’s built around of mindless punishments and lasy buffs.
And
“You neglect high play”
No. I'm not too concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling. I want tunnelling goneYeah, that quote doesn't say what you say it does. Again, you are fighting out some kind of grudge you have with me and you're having an argument with a voice in your head that you attribute to me. But it's nothing I have said.
So, talking about risks, u were continuously admitting that now - it’s
onlyway to win on level of play when u compete against people who knows how to play this game. U admit that, but u talking this strategy should gone.I have made no such admission. It is a premise you have asserted. I haven't refuted it because I don't need to in order to expose a problem with your argumentation. This assertion of yours conflicts with your other assertion that tunnelling is 'risky'.
I am, in fact, more inclined to believe that tunnelling is risky than that it is the only way to win, but the point is that you can't hold both of these assertions at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.
EITHER
Tunnelling is the only avenue to a win, which makes choosing to employ it not a risky choice at all
OR
Tunnelling is risky, because you risk losing in a situation that you could otherwise win.
The reason I haven't refuted your claim that tunnelling is the only way to win at high level is because reasonably, if you choose to take the position that tunnelling is 'risky', you have to drop the assertion that tunnelling is the only way to win, yourself.
Alongside with this, u
neverprovided alternative. 3 NERFED base kits from PTB while u removing the only way to get a win - not the buff nor the compensation. U never talked under this thread about actual compensation after removing strategy u find problematic.Because this is the point where I actually reject the premise. I don't agree that tunnelling is the only way to win, and I do think that the buffs are impactful and meaningful. These naturally push the game towards more spread pressure, which is the obvious alternative to tunnelling.
Not u, not BHVR, not every other person provided meaningful compensation to this
Problem is that you are the sole arbiter of what you consider to be meaningful. So if anyone disagrees with you, then they are, to your mind, 'objectively wrong'. At which point any suggestion I make would be inherently shot down because we disagree about the level of imbalance.
After all, anything I could suggest would adhere to your definition of 'risky', and something tells me you wouldn't accept that.
What to say, if decisive strike were severely “nerfed” by your opinion, when the only difference in 1 sec of stun
As a reminder, the survivor themselves are also stunned by DS due to the animation lock. That 5 second stun amounted to roughly three seconds of distance, so cutting the stun duration by 1 second is a nerf of 33%.
That's pretty hefty. It's certainly heavier than the proposed nerf to Pop in this patch, and DS didn't have any counterbalancing basekit buffs when it got nerfed back down to stack with.
Tunneling can meaningfully gone only in one case - where this game will stop be 1 vs 4 or survivors will be completely deprived of the right to deny someone down in chase by second chance perks or save from team. Which is straightforward impossible, because u can’t forbid person to take a hit even when u remove collision, ptb proved it. Until survivors can deny hook pressure by gen rush or team play, tunneling would stay as most viable strategy.
This assertion is also distinctly untrue.
If, say, the killer got a 50% total gen progress pain res for every unique hook, and hooking a survivor twice in a row would immediately open the exit gates, you haven't done anything to nerf gen rush or team play, but tunnelling most definitely isn't the most viable strategy anymore.
Now, such numbers are obviously extreme and unworkable, but it shows that the premise for the PTB is perfectly workable. You can argue about the balance of it, but to claim that it has absolutely zero chance of succeeding is a fool's position.
You do touch upon something that is interesting though, which is prevalence of hook denial. And on that, I agree that it needs to be toned down. (Not 'second chance perks', those are tunnelling specific, no reason to nerf them) Again, similarly, I don't care about the balance outcome of rampant hook denial, I care about the gameplay aspect of it. It is awful to play against, so I want it gone. However, I also feel like I'm the only one with that opinion since it's never brought up as an issue for killers on its own merit, but always in response to survivor QoL, which is why I don't bother making suggestions with regards to it.
Yeah, that quote doesn't say what you say it does. Again, you are fighting out some kind of grudge you have with me and you're having an argument with a voice in your head that you attribute to me. But it's nothing
Ihave said.
U can manipulate over and over this statement. U still trying to manipulate with “it’s semantic” about risk, while u compare unreliable strat A to reliable strat B, after which put comparison with imaginable perks that god damn it kill whole survivor from the start. Every of your sentence is exaggerate play. Of course when u exaggerating tunneling risk won’t matter for u. Because in proportion instead of 50/50 or 60/40 to tunnel strategy u see 90/10. U yourself fighting with your own grudge, because didn’t have experience of play where tunnel doesn’t secure wins. It’s your own sentiment here fighting with “risk” definition.
Now, such numbers are obviously extreme and unworkable, but it shows that the premise for the PTB is perfectly workable.It’s not +15% to base actual pop kit. Because it’s current progression. As well as nerfed eruption. U ignore “current”, because it’s convinient. However, the issue of OTR base kit, because alongside with it, u get additional buffs, like no collision, prolonged haste, aura read, free stealth u so craved for. It’s at least 2 perks in one base kit + additional collision buff. Same with antislug. U got overbuffed unbreakable, alongside with nerfing any track tools of slugged survivors with tenacity base kit? Compensation? No compensation. We fool around like base kit is so broken that other perks deserved to be nerfed to the ground.
Survivors don’t have to equip their meta to counter killer play style anymore, but killer still have to. So, gen rush or full chase while killer stuck with same and even nerfed version. So, buffed efficiency is clearly evident, your sentiment tried to deny it because somehow your sentiment see +25% to speed boost, blocked gens, 8 base kits equal to three base kit and side nerfs. The thing u even validate 3 base kits as 8 one AND additional system that decintives valid way of play for win and equal it just shows how u yourself stuck in delusional prejudice.
If u actually genuinely believe such changes are “balanced” - prove me. Send me the video on google disk where u win against survivors on the same level as u in PTB. Survivors good enough to last longer than 10 seconds in chase. Who can compete and know how to split up for efficiency.The problem, nor you not other people who supported this PTB had such games. Because u either didn’t play it, or were fooled by absence of MMR constantly facing people who didn’t played normally even. On paper u just manipulate with 25% of current progression pop number and play with it like it fair compensation. Which isn't, if u aren’t playing against potatoes.
Do it. Show me the balanced and fair game u had in PTB.
-
It more depends on killer u are playing. If u are range/dash u’ll struggle anyway, because part of your power is to zone, and this map don’t really allow it because almost every room have at least two, at max three ways to go. I’ll advise just to eat every god pallet without trying to respect it and always be patient with power. Every 50/50 is good for forcing the drop and after this u can play it easily, but don’t forget people can greed palettes to steal your time
U can find other 3gen besides in main. Like u can have 2 on library and close to the statue and one beside on west. Or 3 gen on east. Hooking survivors in library or mid is a good idea
By the way. Never try to tunnel on this map against decent player. It’s not worth it. U can try only if they doing evident mistakes, but on this map tunneling shouldn’t be intentional. Patrolling is more important on RPD.
It’s fine to accept the fact that some maps favor survivors. Like, we have… farm. It works on both sides. So, just be ready and try your best. Despite all my hate to this map the most interesting trials was there when I played killer.
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People will do it no matter what. U can’t create anti tunnel and don’t provoke players who already good enough in this game to weaponise it. Because this “anti”correlates with main objective.
Treat it like “anti” gen rush perks, like deadlock. Do survivors deserve to get gen blocked by doing well in their objective part while from killer side he did just… nothing? No. But because many people can’t play the game without relying on other side being artificially limited, we have this “anti”. Either optional or base kit.
It would be always like this if devs will continue to build game pace around “anti” play, rather than just a play.
-
I think it’s more about people reaction. If they were actually counting on data, they would more likely to share with it to stop this rant and cool down the heat of discussion
I also noticed MMR doesn’t work on PTB. I barely had 4 matches out of 40 on this PTB where my skill matched with my teammates or opponent. Many killers or survivors dced just after first minutes of match because it was too fast - either 4 downs on 5 gens, or 3 gens done without any hook stages. So, maybe, the issue they don’t really have proper datas…
The main point the whole PTB from the start was created from people outcry as well, just from other side. It never was about some stats or objectiveness, it was an attempt to accomplish sentiment
-
U can’t reduce gen efficiency, because if nerfing it severely, it will feel punished for people to complete to main objective, but with good RGN and team that can spread u need basically around 5 to 9 minutes of people working to be in endgame without any struggle, so u can’t completely remove tunneling because it also can be too punishing.
So it’s lose lose situation. If u want to nerf the approach to main objective, it will feel to punished to play the game.
Killer when loading don’t see difference between efficient and not efficient team, comms and no comms, so they’ll tunnel anyway.
If killers would be balanced around perks so they can’t abuse specific builds and survivors would be more encouraged for playing efficient, as well as buffed it won’t feel too oppressive.Survivors need more free aura read perks for each other and better maps so u can actually 1vs1 without struggle on some Haddonfield where u just don’t have distance to reach tile. “Anti” is just a crutch and never should be proper solution , because u are fighting with the way how people play by system, that's ridiculous. U either don’t have such issue from the start, or forced to play around this issue. In asymmetrical games u are more likely to be forced to play around this issue
Solo on mid MMR almost not using any antitunnel perks. No wonder killers abuse it. -
I specifically said that I'm not concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling, by which I mean that I don't care whether it's OP or not, I'm concerned about the gameplay impact, not whether or not it's winning too many matches. That's not the same as saying that I don't care about balance at all. If indeed it proves to be too much of a nerf for killers over all, then compensatory buffs would be in order, absolutely. (And need I remind you, there were compensatory buffs included in the PTB, which I've spoken positively of already.)
You contradict yourself.
I'm concerned about the gameplay impactnot whether or not it's winning too many matches.
But this IS gameplay impact. U can’t ignore stuff, that literally IMPACT.
If indeed it proves to be too much of a nerf for killers over all, then compensatory buffs would be in order, absolutely
My post noted the reason of PTB buffs wasn’t enough. Because nerfed 3 perks on base kit + nerfed all optional regression + limitation of HUD info + complete remove of tunneling on a level it makes no sense for gameplay were provided at the same time with buffed gen rush and heal thanks to new perk + 8 base kits for survivor + rework of optional perks that buffs already OP base kit + side bonuses when literally losing for additional % to the repair bonuses. In comparison this “buffs” means nothing, they even don’t compensate anything. No one cares about positives when this “positives” were nerfed compare to optional perks, this optional perks became irrelevant because they also got nerfed, while other side got second chances on top of second chances for doing nothing in the trial but losing.
About quoting:
“Stop treating it as objective opinion when it’s built around of mindless punishments and lasy buffs.
And
“You neglect high play”
No. I'm not too concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling. I want tunnelling gone
Except it's not a 'gamble' if it's the only way to win
So, talking about risks, u were continuously admitting that now - it’s only way to win on level of play when u compete against people who knows how to play this game. U admit that, but u talking this strategy should gone. Alongside with this, u never provided alternative. 3 NERFED base kits from PTB while u removing the only way to get a win - not the buff nor the compensation. U never talked under this thread about actual compensation after removing strategy u find problematic. Not u, not BHVR, not every other person provided meaningful compensation to this. And when people on this forum were talking about making at least nerfed scourge hook as base kit, a lot of people who were talking about “positives” tried to find any excuse to find 12% of remote regression as bad idea that’s not a fair. So, don’t even try to convince me that people like u were actually trying to balance stuff around, the only thing u wanted is tunneling gone and no compensation for it. So the issue isn’t in tunneling being bad in core principle. Tunneling is problematic for you because it’s the strategy people use for win. The win factor is the only thing that actually makes tunneling so unsatisfying for survivors.
Maybe, if your opinion were built around providing actual alternatives of tunneling besides just turning it off - it would be meaningful dialogue. But because the only thing u were accepting is 3 cheap base kits as “positives”, u indeed just want to make it only harder for one side and simple for other.
U can’t reduce tunneling until u’ll provide meaningful alternative of this strategy. And u don’t really wanna, because genuinely believe in tunneling being unbelievably hard to counter even with existence of strong perks or already existing base kits. When u’ll provide meaningful base kit alternative for killers to base kit anti - tunnel, it would be a talk about balance.
What to say, if decisive strike were severely “nerfed” by your opinion, when the only difference in 1 sec of stun and that u can’t use anti tunnel on endgame where tunneling doesn’t affect to so called gameplay and it’s already evident who won.
Tunneling can meaningfully gone only in one case - where this game will stop be 1 vs 4 or survivors will be completely deprived of the right to deny someone down in chase by second chance perks or save from team. Which is straightforward impossible, because u can’t forbid person to take a hit even when u remove collision, ptb proved it. Until survivors can deny hook pressure by gen rush or team play, tunneling would stay as most viable strategy. And because game doesn’t provide other meaningful ways to compete against gen efficiency from good teams, people will continue to commit to it -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003679#Comment_4003679
Oh look, it's AI…
Well guess what?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XIT6FBJZE6FO/risk-of-tunnelling.png
If you actually present it with the situation we're discussing, turns out it agrees that tunnelling can not reasonably be considered risky.
But just as a word of general advice: Don't rely on AI to do the thinking for you, it is brutally unintelligent.
Survivors already overbuffed and high level play shows it, but high neglecting of solo, problematic killer powers and people like you have a tendencyof creating false image.
Where's the proof that survivors are 'overbuffed' and that 'high level play shows it'? Because this is just something that keeps getting regurgitated all over the forums without anything to substantiate it.
It's always just 'this is the way I say it is and anyone who deigns to question it, is wrong'.
You only advise to make it easy on low level
Quote me.
completely neglect high one
Quote me.
and make everything harder for one side only
Quote me.
Stop treating it as objective opinion when it’s built around of mindless punishments and lasy buffs.
Seriously, quote me.
Because you've been having a conversation in your head and you're now taking your frustration out on me when I have said NONE of these things. Seriously, you are working off of some kind of grudge you have against me, not this actual conversation or thread.
I have made no such claim!No. I'm not too concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling.To remind you, you accused me of:
But implying that u can’t balance game on top level without tunnelling. And then along come you and your fellow “just git gud” thinkers, who insist on "it should just go because it's my opinion, and I don't actually care about balancing."
And I have not said any of these in here. I didn't say you can't balance top level without tunnelling, I didn't tell you to 'git gud', I didn't say it should go 'just because it's my opinion', and I never said I don't care about balancing.
I specifically said that I'm not concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling, by which I mean that I don't care whether it's OP or not, I'm concerned about the gameplay impact, not whether or not it's winning too many matches. That's not the same as saying that I don't care about balance at all. If indeed it proves to be too much of a nerf for killers over all, then compensatory buffs would be in order, absolutely. (And need I remind you, there were compensatory buffs included in the PTB, which I've spoken positively of already.)
But just buffing survivors up to be as powerful as tunnelling, thereby making tunnelling not broken overpowered, would not fix the issue I have with it. Which was what you asked of me, personally.
Aren’t u satisfied?
”Maybe, but no compared”.
— Compared to what? To lose? Would person consciously choose constantly losing? Unlikely. Did situation forced him to commit to strategy B? So did situation forced him to choose for getting a result? Yes.”Compared to” - is not the way to cancel the risk of whole situation.
Relatively risk indeed doesn’t matter. Because u compare. Technically risk will stay no matter of what.
U can’t say risk doesn’t exist at all just because other situation is 100% failure. It This may diminishe the significance of the risk compared to a complete loss. However, people rarely choose to lose if they're competing. Therefore, scenario "A" doesn't exist in principle. No “Strategy A” if u don’t want to lose. It’s only Strategy B with uncertain outcome