sizzlingmario4
sizzlingmario4
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I thought ever since the botched rework attempt Victor was supposed to count for anti-camp, maybe it's bugged. Idk. Either way he should count towards it
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Good. They shouldn't exist at all for either side, they are just a waste of bloodpoints now and when they were actually strong they were unhealthy, so it's probably for the best if they just get removed.
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I actually think that's a nerf honestly, I'd rather be Broken than lose a hook stage, yeah you can't heal but being down a hook stage means you suddenly became a much easier tunnel target. I feel like using DS would almost be a requirement to run an invocation if they worked this way, and if you happened to get hooked once before you got a chance to do the invocation (ie. if you were the first chase of the game) it would basically become throwing to do it.
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Had they gone through with the Standard spawn time changes, we would've actually seen more sandwiching and double-tapping, not less. While it would have nerfed that strategy, it would've nerfed the alternative option (using guards to split pressure and pressure multiple survivors at once) even more. That's why it wasn't a good change.
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I mean…that's kinda the entire point of Hemorrhage, is to regress heal progress and waste medkit charges.
As it is, Hemorrhage only really excels when combined with Mangled or some other form of healing slowdown. It's not really that strong on its own, and the instances of it in the game that co-exist with Mangled also got nerfed due to collateral damage from Mangled getting nerfed. Most of the Hemorrhage-only addons (ie. the ones that don't also have Mangled) get very little use, and that's despite the fact that most of those don't even have time limits and still last until fully healed.
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While I don't disagree that Blindness should be looked at, this is not a good way to buff it and would primarily punish solo players even more than it already does, and have little effect on swfs
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They would be a lot better if there were more chests on the map.
Chest builds are actually pretty good with Appraisal now, but that's the issue - you NEED Appraisal for it.
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There should be a way to share presets with other characters, BUT it should be a fully optional feature. You should still be able to have separate presets on different characters. If sharing was forced and you were stuck with 7 presets across all characters of a role, that would be a massive downgrade to the system.
In other words, yes the ability to share should exist, but it should be fully in the player's control as to whether to do that or not.
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He needs adjustments sooner rather than later. The antidote activation time definitely needs to be reverted, lowering that completely removed most of the strategy around the yellow bottles and made them way too easy to use, and I don't think a middleground would fix it either, 2 seconds really was the limit on how low that number could be without being unhealthy imo. If the basekit haste stays at 12% then the haste addons also should be returned to PTB values so the end result goes back to 15% like it was before, getting 17% speed on every yellow bottle is just too much.
The pink bottles also should be re-buffed back to lasting 2 seconds again. The addon nerfs were fine imo (19% hinder with Bleach was overtuned), but nerfing the linger to 1 second was a devastating nerf and made pinks too ineffective overall. There's really no reason not to use yellow bottles 95% of the time in Clown's current state.
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I agree, it should either eliminate great zones while in the terror radius or at least make them smaller. I don't know why the 60% smaller skill check size only affects the good skill check zone and not the great skill check zone too.
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I honestly have no idea why this addon hasn't been reworked yet.
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I think after 4 minutes that's reasonable, yeah.
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It's intentional.
However, considering that perk permanently injures you and forces you to spend 60 seconds in the basement, it really should not have that limitation and should just work anyway (or be put on hold until the gen is unblocked).
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This is normal with any of the addons that increase the stalk requirement for tier 3 (the tombstone addons as well as the tier 3 duration addons) - since the increased requirement only applies on the first time you reach tier 3, subsequent tier-ups will begin with the power gauge partially filled.
In this case with Judith's Tombstone, since it increases the first tier 3 requirement by 400%, which is 20 additional stalk points for a total of 25 required, when dropping back to tier 2 the progress bar will start at 80% filled because you only need the regular 5 stalk points to get back to tier 3 again (out of the 25 total points the gauge is showing).
The exception is Tombstone Piece, which works a bit differently because it inflicts a larger penalty to stalk progress after killing a survivor (-10 points instead of the regular -5 points), so it will drain the power gauge a bit more, but still be partially filled.
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I agree. The nerf they're due to get next week (adding limited charges) was the nerf they actually needed. Reducing the opacity was unnecessary and made them really bad. I tried using them earlier and they didn't really do anything.
Unfortunately, they are also bugged on certain maps to be way stronger than intended, so that doesn't help either.
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I promise you, limiting Nurse to 1 blink is not a good idea and would completely destroy her identity.
Matchbox Nurse (the 1-blink Nurse addon) has even less counterplay and is far more uninteractive for both sides than the regular Nurse. The only way Nurse's design works at all is because she is slower than survivors and is forced to use her power to hit anyone, and thus, you as a survivor have an opportunity to avoid her power by being able to distance yourself from her and breaking LOS. If you limit her to 1 blink, you would be forced to increase her movement speed to make up for it, which completely breaks her power on a fundamental level because Nurse is not designed around being able to walk a survivor down. It would massively lower her skill ceiling (as you can just get close to survivors and then hit them with a short-range blink that is really difficult to avoid) and remove just about everything that makes Nurse the unique character she is. She would no longer be challenging or interesting to play and she would be horrible to play against too. Current Matchbox is extremely boring to play against and I'm glad it's not more common.
The nerfs she does need include giving her aura-blindness while charging/using her power (because survivor auras while using her power basically just completely delete her counterplay in a lot of situations), nerf or rework Heavy Panting (30% bonus lunge on every chain blink should not be an addon), nerf Fragile Wheeze to 60 seconds (70 seconds is too long for how consistent of a trigger condition this has and just given how strong Nurse is in general, but lower than 60 seconds would make it kinda bad), rework both iri addons (Matchbox is bad design for the reasons I just explained above, Torn Bookmark is just overpowered in general as 3 blinks is far too forgiving even with a penalty), and force stuns to reset her power cooldown to zero so the occasional pallet stun has a real consequence and she can't just ignore DS a lot of the time.
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Yeah so, after playing with them today, I'm confident in my original first impression that the opacity should be reverted back to 40%, this was the wrong nerf. Give them the limited charges next week, revert the opacity, and they will be fine. They are too easy to see through now (unless you get one of the maps they are bugged on).
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I'd say 5 or possibly even 6.
Chest builds feel really good with Appraisal now, but Appraisal basically feels required.
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That explains why I got so much value from them on a Dead Dawg game I had.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968733#Comment_3968733
Not so sure of that, old Streetwise you could do some pretty gnarly stuff.
It's important to remember for generators, using a toolbox grants 40% skillcheck chance, and with teh right build you can really exploit this. One of my favourite uses of this effect was Bardic Inspiration, Streetwise, Built to Last with a Max charge Commodius, and most importantly avoid ALL repair speed perks (such as Prove Thyself or Deja Vu). You don't want repair speed cause you want to preserve charges, and slower repair speed means slower item consumption, means more 40% skillchecks. Working with a teammate was perfect because you both benefit from it and your repair speed is slower, keeping your Commodius for much longer.
With this even solo, you can really surprise rush generators hard, catching killers out with a generator at 0% one minute, then 90% 50s later.
Old Streetwise was no joke 😅
That's fair, though I feel like that's more of an issue with that toolbox itself than it is with Streetwise. Commodious with double charges has always been too strong imo, whether you have Streetwise or not
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@Amanova said:
No stop nerfing survivors perks/items this community is literally just one sided and only their voice is listen by mods, I'm just so shocked at bhvr that they only cater towards killers opinions! What about broken dms then? I doubt it will be changed😭
2 things can be a problem at the same time.
Fwiw, I agree DMS should be looked at as well.
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Limited charges is a warranted nerf, but nerfing the opacity is overkill. The infinite use was the only problem imo.
And yeah Potent Extract at 5% with those downsides is bad.
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This isn't a bug, cages intentionally are not treated as hooks for the purposes of perks on either side.
With the recent update, they did change it so that you get the basekit BT from cages now, but that's it.
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Thank you. I very much appreciate the follow-up and I'm glad that action is being taken now. Hopefully this can be a learning experience.
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I definitely would've waited a bit longer before reducing the opacity, I'm not confident that they needed a double nerf.
Adding a limited number of charges is necessary though, they were too strong being unlimited. But I feel like they might have been fine with just that change alone and maybe only adjusting Potent Extract (and leave the base opacity at 40%)
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That version would actually be a lot weaker now, because it would put a hard time limit on Weave Attunement.
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Perks shouldn't affect killer powers. The treasure chests are part of Vecna's power.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977320#Comment_3977320
OP's follow up comment confirms it wasnt actually killswitched, but ill double check for myself
Potential Energy in particular never got killswitched.
But they can killswitch perks and they have done it with other perks before multiple times. Wake Up for example a couple years ago had a bug where it caused the killer's game to crash when you tried to open an exit gate, and that got killswitched almost immediately
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I am really sad about this entire situation and I'm disappointed that I even have to sit here and write what I'm about to say.
BHVR, please. Take a step back. Ask yourself what benefit it gives to leave Streetwise in the game when it's only going to continue to frustrate your players. If this bug doesn't qualify as "gamebreaking" or otherwise doesn't fit the killswitch criteria, then that criteria should be revised. Again, the only thing you are doing by keeping this in the game is upsetting your playerbase. We understand that you can't fix bugs the same day they're found. That's okay. But it is not worth keeping bugged content in the game like this, and even if it means a few innocent players can't use a certain perk for a little bit, that's far less impactful than leaving an incredibly unfair bug in the game especially when it's localized to a single perk. If you explain why something was killswitched, I promise you 99% of us are going to understand and be happy that we no longer have to play against it until you can get it fixed.
In my opinion, this Streetwise bug falls in a similar category as the bug from a couple years ago when Geographical Readout (SM addon) stacked with itself repeatedly. Did Geographical Readout make the game unplayable? Technically no, but it sure did make the game feel extremely unfair and frustrating to play, hence why it was warranted being killswitched. The same thing should apply here, and the same thing should've applied to Merciless Storm when it was bugged too.
I don't really know what else I can say, I've gone from confused, to dumbfounded, to disappointed in the span of a few hours. Please reconsider your stance on this topic. Disabling the perk until the hotfix is the correct decision in this case, and in the future, please don't be so hesitant to use this feature for similar issues. You spent the time developing the killswitch in the first place. If the vast majority of the community is telling you that something should get killswitched, it's probably a good sign that it's causing frustration and that it should get killswitched. Please listen to your playerbase.
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Probably, but I hope it doesn't get nerfed too much. I don't think the recovery time is really a problem on its own, it's when you put it with Exponential and other stuff that makes it an issue. 8 seconds is enough that for example you can hit someone through a window, wait for the hit cooldown, and then vault or walk around the window to pick up the survivor. But 4 seconds (with Expo) isn't.
I'd try making it so that rather than being recovery percentage based, it has a flat timer before you can get up so you can't make it any faster. I feel like if they simply increase the recovery percentage required to use it with other recover-speed increasing perks in mind then it'll become kinda bad without them. On average I don't think the perk is actually that good if you don't have a build around it or don't have a swf teammate that knows you have it.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976474#Comment_3976474
Good. It's healthy for the game for there to be strong alternatives to stacking slowdown.
And I agree with that, but that doesn't mean the alternatives should be over-buffed. If it had no cooldown then certain things would trigger it repeatedly too often and you'd have constant aura reading throughout a chase.
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The exhaustion when using an item doesn't need a cooldown.
The aura reading does need the cooldown though. It's actually quite a good perk now with certain other perks (namely Languid) or with certain addons. Artist with Overwhelming Presence + Lethal + her Exhausted addon is a strong combo for example.
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I still think map offerings should just be removed.
They aren't that useful now on average since they usually don't work, but in a way, when you play against a map offering that DOES work it feels even worse than it did before because not only do you know you were put at a significant disadvantage from the start, you ALSO know that you lost an 80% chance to not get that map anyway. Since the changes, I've still played against a few map offerings on both sides that have succeeded and every single time when I see the results screen and see the offering it genuinely just feels awful. I feel like they really don't have any place in the game (either side being able to influence map selection is just unhealthy) and getting rid of them would also help lower how many junk offerings there really are in the bloodwebs.
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@ThatRyanB said:
I appreciate the different perspectives in here! If you don't mind me interjecting to ask two questions (since I'd love to share this feedback with the team):
- What is one change that would increase your enjoyment of the Map item rework?
- What about for the Key item rework?
Overall I like the reworks and have been enjoying them, but I think they could be improved some.
Maps:
- I wish the light beam could reveal chest auras as well.
- For the Sharpened Flint addon, assuming that its current behavior/downside of removing the window/pallet auras is intended (and if so please update the addon description because it's not very clear on that at all), I feel like this is not the best penalty to give it. While I understand why an addon that reveals totems in a large range should have a downside, I feel like a simple range penalty would be more appropriate rather than removing the base auras of the map. The current version is basically only worth bringing for boon totems, otherwise you are gambling on whether there will be a hex build or not and otherwise you can't really use the map for its normal function which feels bad. On the other hand, it would be the strongest map addon by far if it had no downside and would make hexes less appealing, so I don't really want that either.
- The penalties on Crimson Stamp are a bit too severe, the -10 seconds I understand but the -2 charges is a bit steep, this could be lowered to -1 charge or maybe remove the charge penalty altogether.
Keys:
- Survivor aura range could be a little higher on all key variants (ie. maybe +8 meters on each one).
- Unlocking a chest with the key should show the chest's aura to other survivors across the entire map, the 42 meter range limit is unnecessary.
- Shrill Whistle is not very good and should get buffed. There aren't many scenarios where 35% reduced channel time actually makes a difference or makes the item much more useful.
- Blood Amber is a tad bit over-nerfed imo. Considering it reveals your aura to the killer now (which means the killer can figure out you're using it now), the other downsides are a little too much. I'd drop it to -4 seconds (instead of -6 seconds) and only reduce charges by 1 instead of 2.
For both items (and for the fog vials as well), I also wish there were maybe a few more addons (maybe 2-3 more for each item). While I understand the desire to reduce the number of addons considering some addons were repetitive before (or were just not very good), only having 5 addons is fairly limiting and results in addon choice feeling repetitive for these items.
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I've gotten plenty.
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This is actually a very good idea, I like this a lot.
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While I agree that the haste stacking changes were healthy and shouldn't have been abandoned, this version of Clown would've been a problem regardless.
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@Memesis said:
Why? Should toolboxes lose all charges after the first gen pops? Should Prove thyself deactivate after the first gen pops? How about deja vu?
I would rather real equalizer mechanics from 2v8 be brought into the regular 1v4 mode.
Because the perk is specifically designed around hooking different survivors and instead it rewards killers who tunnel and then hook the others later. It shouldn't work that way, and neither should Pain Resonance honestly.
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- Injures you for free so you basically start every chase with 1 health state
- Can land right next to you with very little cooldown
- Has high mobility (which isn't problematic by itself, but combined with everything else it is)
- Has a vault mechanic that he doesn't need to have at all
- Kidnap tech exists
- Consistently gets the results of high-performing S tier killers while also being incredibly easy to play
- About 95% of his skill ceiling that does exist is completely optional and not actually required to do well with him at all, and the mechanic that creates that optional skill ceiling (the short fatigue) is so problematic it'll have to get nerfed anyway
- Can use addons that effectively replace Bamboozle and BBQ and act as 5th and 6th perk slots
Yeah, he's horrible to go against and I completely stopped playing him until they nerf him, I absolutely refuse to contribute to making survivors play against this awful design.
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No the Clown changes are not healthy at all and need to be revised ASAP. They overbuffed yellows and overnerfed pinks.
As for keys, they didn't get nerfed. Blood Amber got nerfed, but keys overall were buffed.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974991#Comment_3974991
Vigil does help with healing by counter Haemorrhage, Mangled and Broken. It also helps with altrusistic plays, you can recover nearby Survivors from effects faster. Most importantly it helps a ton with lasting longer in chase, which is free gen time for teammates.
First of all, 66% more charges per second is already really strong, you don't need to stack it. The range is also 16 meters, not 8. This easily allows people to recover by not being in danger range, especially on multistory maps. Also while teaming up on gens early on is bad, doing it with 2 or less gens remaining is actually pretty strong.
And no, Survivors getting the same aura as killers is not fair. Survivors have 16 total perk slots, killers have 4.O ne Survivor perk should not have the same capabilities as one killer perk.
I agree and I think the recovery percentage needs to be reduced. I don't feel like removing stacking would be a sufficient nerf, even one instance of Vigil is too powerful imo. I'm not even sure that the stacking would be so much of a problem if the number wasn't so high to begin with, Vigil stacking never was a problem in the past until it was buffed. Now you effectively get more than what 2 stacked Vigils was worth before, for only having 1 of them, and that's a problem.
The range can stay at 16 meters, that part is fine.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975859#Comment_3975859
I’m not trying to do any of the things you mentioned though. I’m dropping them right in front of killers who are breaking pallets so it’s definitely in LoS.
I’m almost certain they did more than just fix the things you mentioned.Basically, in order to fix the bugs/prevent blinds that weren't intended, they reduced the radius/possible angles you can blind the killer with the flashbang. A lot of flashbang blind angles that previously blinded the killer don't work anymore.
This video gives several great examples of what does and doesn't work.
https://twitter.com/deadlynaya/status/1908841984141529188?s=46&t=WGCWNcZE8Xz5iZxsx8icAQ -
At the very least, the cooldown should be removed.
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I agree, but it doesn't need the compensation buff, it's strong enough as it is
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The problem is the cooldown. The effect itself is fine, but it either needs a limited number of uses or the cooldown needs to be significantly longer. They're too spammable.
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@MoZo said:
for those with the answer of “he’s busted”, would that be around S tier? i’m trying to get a general opinion on what tier he sits in.
He's not S tier. The yellow bottles are just really strong in a really boring and unskillful way. It's not healthy design
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He's busted and also extremely one dimensional. There is nothing interesting about his current gameplay at all and it barely even feels like playing Clown.
I'm honestly amazed at how a pair of 1-second number tweaks have completely messed up a killer design.
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@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975020#Comment_3975020
Agree. This perk counters two killers directly (Clown and Freddy) and three others to some degree (Nemesis, Houndmaster, and Unknown). No perk should counter killer powers in any given way. They even tweaked Unbound to no longer work with Wesker or Legion. Also, reducing the recovery rate because currently it counters 30 perks and 30 addons for free which limits the variety of killer builds even more and forces them to only run slowdown. It also makes already strong exhaustion perks even stronger. All that for free.
Yeah, that's part of why I don't like Vigil being so strong either, it further reinforces the meta for both sides (by encouraging meta for survivor and discouraging a lot of off-meta stuff for killer). Most of the killer perks that get countered by Vigil are not meta picks with a few exceptions. And overall it just has so much versatility and situations where it's useful, to the point where the recovery percentage really shouldn't be as high as it is.
Regarding it affecting killer powers - I don't think it should affect any, but it actually doesn't affect all of them, it's not consistent.
As of the current patch (9.1.0), Vigil affects Hindered from:
- Clown
- Freddy (it didn't used to, but now it does)
- Nemesis
It actually does not affect Hindered from:
- Unknown
- Houndmaster
- Skull Merchant
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I think the cooldown is necessary for the aura reading, however, the actual exhaustion effect when using an item should not be tied to the cooldown and should be always active. The cooldown could perhaps also be lowered to 20 seconds instead of 25.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974956#Comment_3974956
It really wasn't fine. It wasn't weak, but it was awkward, finicky, and annoying to use- if you're going to weaken solely using purple bottles, then using yellow bottles needs to be less of an obstacle than it was prior to the changes.
Which, for the record, I approve of. Making Clown take a little more skill (or more accurately, pushing people towards the skill expression that's already there) is an actively good idea, I'm very on board.
I could see nerfing the Haste addons, though, I hadn't thought of that. I could agree with the max w/ addons being 15%, that seems fair.
I never felt like it was that finnicky ever since they lowered it to 2 seconds honestly. Idk, they could try 1.8 but much lower than that I think would be a problem. It definitely was finnicky back when it used to be 2.5 seconds though.
I don't really want pinks lowered below 14% because the hindered percentage should be higher than the haste. The haste lasts much longer (even if the hindered linger time gets reverted), and is also being applied to the Clown's higher base movement speed as well (compared to survivor speed), so it's worth a bit more in terms of the actual speed differential in m/s. Having said that, the old 19% with Bleach was obnoxious and I definitely don't want that back either.
But yeah, it might've been like 65/35 in favor of pink bottles before, but right now it's 90/10 in favor of yellows.