ppmd
ppmd
About
- Username
- ppmd
- Joined
- Visits
- 823
- Last Active
Comments
-
Agree with the OP. Making the 1v1 less interactive is not fun for survivors but it seems to be the point of most killer updates now. I hope they could focus a bit more on 4v1 if they feel the need to buff killers, rather than make them less interactive as a whole which is becoming increasingly common.
-
I'd be more down with the flashbang change if locker flashbangs weren't in the game. It means killers can't do anything in that spot already, and incentivizing that more doesn't feel good to me.
I'm not sure I want to buff chemical trap further or not. It can allow a survivor to fully unzone themselves which is quite strong. Giving it a once per chase use(and of course no use if tunneling) seems okay to me. Maybe it could be given some small secondary effect instead?
I think both are in a pretty good spot though, but it would be kind of neat to be able to hold multiple special items so I like the overall idea. -
@Langweilig said:
It was already not really good for survivors before and now some loops became even worse.
Sadly they may say the exit gate thing was the main fix and may help kill rates despite survivors all dying early still, but I 100% agree with you.
-
Some clutter is good for both sides, as it helps with stealth on either end and can help give some counterplay to ranged powers for survivors. If there is too much it's not healthy and most maps don't have too much imo.
Dead zones and weak tiles I have to 100% agree though, it's becoming way too common and needs to be addressed. -
@BugReporterOnly said:
Seperate the gen progression and Sabo boxes. No way in hell should anyone use a Commodius for Sabo with extra charges. Those should be at most for gens and I feel like that should have no more then 25 charges. Also each box will have red add ons. It is not fair to use that broken toolbox for saboing let alone for gen repairs with double charges.
Toolboxes definitely need tuning down. Commodious just does SO much. And they don't need to give extra skill checks either to exaggerate the hyperfocus stakeout combo.
Making some only sabo or only repair is a neat idea, and I've also seen the idea to make them cosmetically look different in-game which would be cool for killers and for solo teammates. -
@HexHuntressThighs said:
Hot Take: Remove all the windup audio cues. All you have to do is look at the killer and watch them and you should be doing that anyways. Doesn't really make sense why Huntress sounds like she is dry heaving every time she readys up a hatchet and allows survivors to brainlessly greed small loops.
You cannot always keep your camera trained on the killer in a chase and must occasionally look at your surroundings. Additionally, even if you are watching the killer you may not get their audio when they are behind a wall, which does not allow for counterplay. The audio design is like that to make the chase more immersive, but also to allow for proper play on both sides.
-
I'm glad to see someone talking about this. I think it's both maps in the realm, so that would include the shattered square too. I think they were fine before this update so I hope they fix this before long.
-
@RageQwt said:
Since dead hard was nerfed to the ground, i think dead hard should be available on the start of the game, then after the hooks.
Seems pretty harmless to me, but because it's popular I doubt it would happen.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
As a solo player, I’m fine. Sometimes my teammates don’t perform well, but thanks to the HUD, I’m aware and do what I can, waiting for the most convenient escape route, hoping to find a key if I need it. Survivor perks need to be more fluid. I didn’t buy the Castlevania DLC, but that perk that boosts Aura reading for 2 seconds is really a joke. It seems like no one knows how to play here, guys. I’ve been playing solo since 2017, and today I’m complaining that the perks are a damn joke to sell something. I suggested improving Distortion in the past, and now people who don’t understand the meaning of “asymmetric game” are asking for a nerf. Put a damn AI for killers and let people learn how to play. Only a bad player will say the game is unbalanced. Distortion helped survivors elude killer perks, which often have very effective special powers. Killers complain about Distortion. PS: I don’t use Distortion; it was useful to make the killer think their favorite aura reading perks could be countered.
I'm glad you're having good games! I do not think that everyone that is playing solo survivor is doing so and that is why discussions like this will continue to pop up.
Making perks more useful in many situations would help solo queue, but perhaps at the expense of SWF having many more tools. That's not to say those perks can't be added, but they must be considered carefully. -
@ChuckingWong said:
Why is both of meyers' addons that let you ignore hooks still in the game?
It was never a good idea to begin with, there are 0 counters to it outside of being in communication and competitive groups.You have to give him a free hook every time you see him as you just have to ASSUME hes evil within TII 99'ed and ready to instakill someone.
Unless you give survivors a way to communicate tombstone/piece shouldnt be in the game.
Same goes for Black incense on plague. Aura read that is that often should not be in the game, and I play Plague.
You essentially walk around with wall hacks all game on everyone.
I agree that broken stuff in the game needs to go on both sides. I'd really love to see no more syringes styptics map offerings busted maps for either side etc for survivor and no more S tiers and perhaps also A+ tier killers and silly addons on the killer side.
Things are more balanced than years ago but it would be nice to push that forward more. -
OG Spine Chill was 100% an issue like everyone in here said, but I'm surprised that they nerfed it a second time when it didn't do very much.
Maybe they just need to remove or totally rework/rework+rename/remove the perk since its base function may not be compatible with the current game. -
I'd feel safer knowing this forum section is gone, but I hope that if it does stay up it is somehow helpful to the devs. Lot of very conflicting things get posted in here.
-
@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793588#Comment_3793588
I agree that more information definitely helps solo-queue and I don't necessarily disagree with the points you've made.
Hence why one of my favorite builds before gens were pushed closer together (they reworked maps to make them smaller) was Bond, Open-Handed, Kindred, and Sprint Burst.
Now that they've made maps smaller, I've made Deja Vu a permanent place from my builds but I digress. The only issue that I could see that you brought up is how the perks would be changed, IE reworking Empathy as in your suggestion making Bond map wide — even putting Open-Handed in a list of perks that would need to be reworked. I don't disagree with a small radius around you to show a Bond. I don't even think Kindred is needed as it would just be a weakened version of Kindred and we all know about the dreaded black bubble that doesn't show the killer due to a bug or whatever reasoning Behavior gave for needing it.
The only reason I brought up basic changes like I've mentioned would be simply that they're easier to implement rather than making a whole list of perks that need to be reworked/tweaked to make it playable for people who do run Bond/Kindred. Again, I don't disagree with what you're saying and I think you bring up good points but just know that if Bond/Kindred basekit was brought into the game, it would make SWF stronger as well as they have pinpointed information which would help in the comms they use. My suggestion was an overall buff to both to help people survive in chase longer, which would help alleviate survivor gameplay as a whole.
I think that, if it's worth it for the health of the game, then changing a handful of perks minorly isn't so bad. Consider that now new players won't have to level up characters to have basic info in the game too, so even if they just make the perks kinda useless like they did with shadowborne then that's still a win! They don't need to put a lot of thought into that and make the perks better if that's a hangup, and they've even been making changes to groups of survivor perks at a time. Who is to say they couldn't do an update where they implement this and just change some information perks? I think it would be well-received.
@PuddleOfBludd said:
Or … hear me out.
You bypass all of that reworking which would only buff SWF (none of whom would need to run any of the aforementioned perks that you want to have base kit ) and just add communications to the game for SoloQ. Boom, on par with SWF without buffing SWF.
I think this could be an interesting experiment, but I also think from watching games such as TCM that solo queue comms has as much potential to be toxic as it does to be helpful(perhaps even more toxic than helpful lol). So while that would be most ideal, I don't think it is the best solution for DBD.
Also, I don't really understand your other point. Isn't my change good then if it's something only solo players need and SWFs don't? I feel like you're just agreeing with me there lol. -
@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793500#Comment_3793500
I get your point and it's a reasonable take on the idea of bringing solo-queue closer to SWF.
I'm not inherently against the idea of it, but I don't know how they would implement a Bond/Kindred being basekit while either reworking Bond/Kindred or buffing them — it's a very thin line to address when you add perks into basekit survivor. My addition with making survivors get the retained version of the speed boost prior to 6.1.0 would address a chase issue that solo-queue got affected by. Chases are much more short due to the reduced speed boost and the buff that bloodlust got when it was reduced per tier. These issues highlight a problem that solo-queue would benefit from, yes - a SWF will benefit from this as well but you could argue that any buff a survivor (aka solo-queue) gets would buff SWF.
If you add basekit Bond/Kindred into the game, that's less information that a SWF team needs to communicate amongst themselves anyways.
To me it's like when they made shadowborne basekit on killer. The perk may take on a more niche use(like shadowborne did), or it can buff the existing stuff. So bond as a perk could be map-wide instead of 36 meters, and kindred could show killer aura by the hook and maybe do another small thing like slightly buff base bond or something. That way you only really need to run one of them to get more information if you really need it. You would also need to rework empathy if that is the case but I think it's pretty manageable. Maybe you could make it the reverse where everyone has map wide aura on teammates or something lol.
I do agree that changing chase mechanics to be longer would be healthier for survivor, but my current thinking is that buffing chase through making killers have more possible counterplay and making maps have more usable resources would be fairer overall and wouldn't really be any more abusable by SWF as compared to solo. Of course, I wouldn't MIND a bloodlust nerf either with how many killer powers have gotten buffed lol but I think bloodlust is more of a bandaid fix and lessening it is more likely to be pushed against since there are still some weaker killers that benefit more from the mechanic.
And absolutely I 100% agree that buffing survivor at all benefits SWF as well as solo, but I also think the largest gaps between SWF and solo are information and skill. So if you give more information to everyone and improve matchmaking then many solo problems will reduce. I don't pretend to think the information gap will close, but it would be reduced a lot which I'd love!
Thank you for taking the time to read, let me know what you think of this when you can. -
I do think matchmaking is absolutely an issue here too, but I also think the majority of the playerbase cannot play vs it. I don't think anyone of most skill levels in solo queue could reasonably expect to play vs a lot of tunneling killers with more oppressive chase powers either. So this seems more nuanced than is being laid out imo.
To say it again since this seems to get lost a lot: I'm not really anti-tunneling or anything like that(op doesn't personally have a problem with it either), but it does seem to harm the game when a lot of players leave or noticeably have a worse time over it.
Also to say it again: if tunneling were somehow removed or made unoptimal, there would definitely need to be some compensation given to killers for this. -
@CautionaryMary said:
Honestly, I would be down for more HUD icons - even extending it to showing the anti-camp meter.
I don't think I would necessarily agree with making perks basekit. I say this as a person who loves to run Bond and Kindred in some of my builds, but I don't think adding this into basekit survivor would be suitable - especially with having to rework or tone down the basekit as those forms of perks already exist.
I do agree that solo-queue needs some love, especially in the form of buffs but I don't believe we need anything basekit that I'm aware of.
If anything, I would potentially buff some of the changes that were introduced in 6.1.0 — stuff like the distance a survivor makes when being hit, which could help a survivor in chase as we get less distance now, which I think was a terrible change for solo-queue and makes chases shorter.
When making perks basekit, of course we need to be very careful. But the reason for example old spine chill was turned into the heartbeat mechanic is because it helped for accessibility reasons. In a similar fashion, making these perks we mentioned at least partly basekit would not buff survivor overall, mainly solo queue because they have less information than in a SWF. This is why killers sometimes say SWF have several perks basekit, so really what we are doing is just giving it to everyone, not only those who are playing with others. If we do this we can make survivor more even overall and then balance for that if it's an issue.
Your suggestion to buff distance gained on hit would help with chase, but it also buffs survivor overall. This would not close the gap between SWF and solo, as in a SWF you could likely make even greater use of this distance gained to know exactly where to run and also die outside of 3 gens and such. It might make solo queue better as it may buff individual players somewhat, but if one player isn't informed then they won't be able to use this information.
To put it another way, injured solo queue teammates often run to open chests to hopefully find a medkit to heal instead of going to a teammate because they don't know where their teammates are. What if we allowed them that chance to coordinate with their teammates which you would have in a SWF? Now solo queue is better, and SWF is the exact same since they could just tell you where to go.
To address your other point differently: I think survivors could use help in chase(sometimes anyway), but I think that comes more in the form of killer power design and map design, not in those basekit things.
I hope this seems reasonable. -
Yeah I agree, locker flashbang saves need to go for the same reason old locker flashlight saves had to go: the killer can't do anything and it can negate all pressure. It's pretty silly tbh. I'm surprised it's still in the game honestly.
-
@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792979#Comment_3792979
The S tiers of old were an entirely different beast. If you think killer strength is at the highest it's ever been, then I doubt you remember the days of no-audio Spirit or instasaw Billy, or even double range Nurse very well.
Yes of course those old S tiers were stronger in a vacuum than their current-day iterations, but you also have to consider that they existed in the context of the old maps and old survivor perks and old gen times, etc.
When I say killer strength, I am speaking across the board for every killer. Nurse can still reliably 2 tap you(as can any S tier, as well as many other killers in the game now), and we have had at least some increases in effectiveness of the weaker killers. This was done either directly through power buffs, or indirectly through map nerfs and overall game changes(gen kick regression increased, gen timer increase, distance gained through hit by survivor lessened, etc). That's not to mention that overall there are far less oppressive survivor perks too than before(old object seeing people the whole game, old DH for distance vs stuff like old bubba, etc). -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793021#Comment_3793021
the maps are worse than what they were before but what they were before were so poorly balanced for all A- & lower killers. I am not sure how to describe it because a good 70% of the killer just did not work on these old maps iteration. their ability was far too weak for the map they were playing on.
when they buff killers they often overdo it or make them uninteresting to vs. Overtuning in the case of billy or twins, unfun in the case of nemesis.
I do not agree. most killer that they buff don't really move needle. The ones that they buff that move needle end up being good because their original kit is good but had poor numbers. Billy is great example of that. He is good killer but his number were poor tuned. They buffed up his numbers and that made him a better killer. Dredge is same. good killer, bad numbers. they buffed his number and now he is much stronger. Huntress also falls in the same boat as billy and dredge. Clown, Trickster, chucky were some of the killer that received positive changes in my opinion but they also received some associated negative changes which can be argue to make them overall worse.
The rest killer just don't make difference. doctor, ghostface, nemesis, knight, singularity, twins, pig, demogorgon and legion. these killer were mediocre before and they're mediocre after. they didn't suddenly jump up to S-tier or A-tier, they're still just ineffective as before.
I guess it's fair to say that not all reworks change the killers that much, but I just consider those tweaks. Anyway I see how you view things now. Have a good one.
-
@Rokku_Rorru said:
Seeing heal progress would be nice too, so odd since like thats info you can just say in comms with a party lmao
Absolutely! I think I forgot to mention anti-camp progress as well lol
-
@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792989#Comment_3792989
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792996#Comment_3792996
They will remove the hug tech as it is confirmed:
They will also fix the instahit exploit
Ah I didn't know that, thanks for clarifying!
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792973#Comment_3792973
they're constantly getting buffed because many of killer are under-tuned. the maps that are getting nerfed are maps that are completely over-tuned for survivor
Like what maps did they touch?
Eyrie of crows → previously a huge map with many safe loops, (Still survivor sided)
Borgo[Shattered Square] → Another huge map with many safe loops(Still arguably survivor sided)
Ormond → A huge map that spawned like 4 jungle gym point in its first iteration(Still arguably survivor sided)
Farm maps, One of the most survivor sided realm in the game. Both Fracture cowshed and Racid abattoir had safe pallet and god pallets everywhere.
Bloodlodge, A map that spawn like 25+ pallets, nicknamed by the player-base to be pallet lodge.
Haddonfield → A map that had so many god windows and infinity loops that made every chase nearly unplayable for m1 killers.
Mother dwelling → A huge map with a god window in the middle(They only shrinked the map but map is still arguably survivor sided due to infinity windows)
Garden of joy → Another terrible map with a god window in the main building followed by a map that links every single tile(Reworked version barely changed anything about this map).
The next map they're reworking is badham preschool which surprise surprise is ultra survivor sided.
Something to note is that they have also buffed some survivor maps that were under-performing. the most notable ones were
-Shelter woods which way more windows and more pallets
-Autohaven Wrecker, a another map where they increased pallet density.
And when they buff killers they often overdo it or make them uninteresting to vs. Overtuning in the case of billy or twins, unfun in the case of nemesis.
I agree that many of the maps changed were too strong for survivor. However, they have gone too far in the other direction now. You cannot tell me modern Rancid or Haddonfield for example are in a healthy state for the game.
Some of these examples are pretty funny though. Saying borgo which has fairly weak pallets and often JGs with no window as a map with "lots of safe loops" is an interesting take.
Fixing shelter woods while nerfing lots of other maps is hardly a balanced take in this discussion. It is undeniable they are making maps far better for killers, and in this way compared to og maps this is of course very good. Many of the og maps had infinites. Today there are no infinites or pallet lodge or whatever else. Let's talk about today. Today there aren't that many maps which are busted for survivor, and maps often needlessly being buffed for killer, or reworks which go too far in favor of killer. That is what I am referring to.
I would be okay with them taking away all of the extra busted survivor maps if there were no S or A+ tier killers, but if those maps go there will be far less protection against S tiers with no restrictions. So of course I wish for the maps to not be unbalanced towards survivor, but I also wish for there to not be BS on the killers' end either. -
@RootsofDredge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792965#Comment_3792965
Also, just wanted to say that wolf form does in fact have counterplay. The speed boost you get from the orbs really isn't that much because it's incredibly short. You get slowed down when charging your pounce attack which is an obvious tell. And it's dodgeable.
Hug tech is clearly unintended an I don't expect it to stay in the game.
If they do remove the hug tech then it would be a lot better I can agree with that much. I do think you are underestimating the speed boost and height and 3rd person camera advantage though.
I would imagine pounce will still be optimized and will be used in a lot of places where it'll either be difficult or perhaps occasionally impossible to dodge, but I still think it'll be better simply because it won't be usable in so many places. The hitbox does seem large enough but with a predictable timing to where you could force some fun 50/50s or other mixups though, and I hope that aspect of the pounce can be emphasized more! -
@turksmall236 said:
Basekit kindred for 1v4 and 2v8
I'm down for that for sure! At least the teammates' auras part. I think we could use even more information than that too =)
-
@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792973#Comment_3792973
The most number of S tiers in history???
I don't think you've been playing DBD for that long.
There are 4 now with Billy Nurse Blight and Spirit. Before at most before there have been 3(nurse spirit billy OR nurse spirit blight) or 2 before that with nurse and spirit. I have been playing for over 4 and a half years, which is a fact I don't think is relevant to the discussion but does mean that I have been playing for quite some time.
Some people put some of the A+ killers into S but I do not do that. Anyway this is a bit of hair-splitting don't you think? The point was more about killer strength overall and especially in chase being at its highest now than at any other point in the games' history, which I would think still holds true even if you could convince me about the S tier thing. -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792948#Comment_3792948
BVHR will not rework the killer. the killer will either be weak because survivor complains about said killer or the killer will be strong playable choice for the killer player to select.
there was nothing wrong with old deathslinger counter-play. it was fair and balanced interaction between survivors predicting shots and extending chase or survivor failing to predict shots and losing distance resulting in an m1. survivor that understood gameplay were fine playing against him and survivor didn't struggled and lost.
It is same for skull merchant really. there is nothing wrong with her current gameplay either. BVHR has habit of spoon feeding survivors that fail to play against a killer. Why bother learning to play against slinger or skull merchant if you can just wait for BVHR to nerf the killer for you. you don't need learn anything that way.
In a game with killer powers constantly getting buffed, and the most number of S tiers in history, and maps getting nerfed so chase is the weakest it has ever been you are saying this.
I see what's going on now.
If the game goes your way there will be no survivors left. -
@RootsofDredge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792941#Comment_3792941
I mean, Xeno's tail has no counterplay but I don't see people crying about her on the forums.
I agree with you, but that just means we need to be addressing it! More interactive gameplay makes both survivor AND killer feel more rewarding when done right, and no it doesn't have to mean it makes the killer weak either.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792456#Comment_3792456
breaking his chain is very hard if not near impossible with new movement speed changes for deathslinger. like i have broken some 16 meter range shots on slinger by carefully wiggling into an object just as your being pulled but i highly doubt the chain break is meant to be counter-play other than restrict deathslinger from taking certain shots.
I am certain that his gameplay is centered around flick dodging at last second for survivor and fast-fire shooting at correct time when the survivor poorly predicts him quick-scoping for the shot. It is just that their balance changed killed deathslinger's gameplay for the killer player and made too easy for survivor to have counter-play.
BVHR will eventually have to admit that their for slinger were poor changes and revert him but they're stubborn and have attempt multiple buffs that have accomplished exactly nothing. till than, you'll just be waiting endlessly until a patch for slinger shows up.
The problem is that BVHR keeps getting posts like @Toystory3Monkey that say that dodging isn't skillful, dodging is not counter-play and quickscoping unfair/imbalanced. As a result, deathslinger will probably stay the same because balanced around casuals.
Old quick scoping and m2 faking was so skilless the community was in an uproar about how unfun he was in chase as he started a lot of similar designs around that time. It's like how people say skull merchant isn't the worst because there are stronger killers that do what she does, when the problem is all of the designs and how free in chase they are, but hers is just most egregious.
If his "intended design" you keep referencing is too killer-sided and not balanced, and he truly is too easy to counterplay on the survivor side, then he needs to be reworked, not buffed or reverted.
@toystory3monkey is based -
@RootsofDredge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792561#Comment_3792561
Wolf just treat it like Wesker.
Vampire form
try to find low LOS loops with high walls that won't allow Hellfire to pass through.
Wolf is not like wesker. Wesker has more charge time on his rushes, does not get a speed boost that increases his rush range or his speed beforehand, cannot get into better spots or outright win loops due to his short height and third person camera, and his hug tech is miles easier. They are hardly comparable.
For the vampire form, I have already addressed this point but I'll say so again: you cannot guarantee you'll get the kind of loop you mention. Even if you do get it, he can just close then hold out his hand then there is no counterplay. If he uses it at max range he has misplayed. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792896#Comment_3792896
yes, average survivor skill deteriorated so much after all the unnecessary changes that were only meant to suit the "casual" players in the way to reduce cognitive involvement of the player into the game aka. spoiling players so much to the point they will expect their opponent to fully obey their imaginary community rules.
….WHAT????
You are saying survivors are weaker now than they were with old DS DH Adrenaline IW Medkits and stronger maps and less resources to use to improve???
Yeah I don't think we can gain much from a discussion here. -
@RootsofDredge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792553#Comment_3792553
Name a high level player who thinks Dracula is OP.
I agree that Dracula is hard to play against. Being able to switch between 3 powers at anytime can overwhelm survivors. However, he's nowhere near OP.
I did not say OP, but I have heard Xeno on his stream earlier today say Dracula is A+ tier, which is much higher than the B I have seen in this thread. A+ tiers I think are at least fairly unhealthy for the game, but perhaps that is splitting hairs.
I am more flatly saying that his Wolf and Vampire form have little counterplay, not that there is a lot to learn vs them. It is true there are many situational things to learn vs him though, just as with any killer in DBD. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
alright, let's settle some things.
Tunneling (camping too) got quite some nerfs in history, but somehow, every single one ended with literally no "positive" impact for average survivors on matches, even led to further decline of escape rates.
if any counter for a specific item/strat/character in any game gets buffed, even a 1% increase in winrate (escape rate in this case tho) would mean that the item/strategy/character has 50/50 chance that they were actually unbalanced. In this case, the escape rate is still in decline. That literally means there is something else that is actually the problem.
But here we are, following the "nerf tunneling" discourse again. Like we are clearly noticing that majority of problem lies in the players, but we still have to bring it up because we are expecting BHVR to give us wins on autopilot.
I don't think tunneling has been addressed much besides the DS/OTR buff and the basekit BT? These things definitely help a lot but I wouldn't say it stops a determined player, especially a higher tier killer character. What's being talked about here is basically making it impossible/not optimal to tunnel.
The reason the kill rate is rising is because the developers do not yet have all killers around 60% kill rate and that is their goal and so they make more changes overall that help killers. That's my view anyway, but this thread also suggests that killer players may have changed their strategy more over the years too and that has also increased the kill rate(possibly a lot) which is interesting. Why they started tunneling more is something to wonder about, but the case is that it happens and it seems to also affect games a lot. -
@RootsofDredge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792433#Comment_3792433
You're making assumptions about my mmr based on a discussion which makes 0 sense. I have 3000+ hours in DbD so I definitely don't have low mmr/experience.
I did know that scent orbs decreases pounce cooldown. My bad for saying it has a long cooldown. Happy now?
Punishment isn't easy to dodge, you are just bad at Pyramid Head. Watch somebody like Ohmals play.
And caging a survivor doesn't make you lose pressure. It actually helps you keep pressuring survivors by not wasting time hooking. As well as countering a slew of the strongest perks in the game. Getting survivors tormented isn't a problem if you're good at PH.
As @Devil_hit11 said, struggling vs Dracula is largely a learn to play issue.
There are several high level competitive players who do not think Dracula is easy to play against and actually believe he is very difficult to play against. I am not suggesting anyone believing otherwise is a bad player like what is being thrown around in this thread, but to discount the experiences of these strong players as well as those in this thread as a skill issue sounds very interesting.
The fire attack cannot be dodged at close range but can be reacted to at far range. Dracula can wait until you are locked into animation or until you are in a narrow area and hit you and otherwise walk you down for an M1. He can reliably set this up by only holding out his hand when he is in closer range to do this, so there is no counterplay. If he holds his hand up earlier he is misplaying and that is the fault of the player, not the design of the killer.
You cannot hold W from this at most loops, as any filler loop is circular and Dracula can simply zone you for a free hit if there were a nearby loop but often there isn't one. In a tile there are narrow spaces you will eventually be corralled into for a free hit. He needs his walking speed while charging the fire to be reverted back to ptb value in order for this strategy to be less effective. -
@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792362#Comment_3792362
It does discourage a lot of new players from playing; I definitely agree. I also added in my post I linked to Killers might need buffs if the desired escape rate is 40% and another of the issues with tunnelling is that the Killers who do tunnel are masking that from the dev team with such a disproportionately effective tactic by increasing kill rates so much it looks like everything is either fine or some Killers might need a nerf (when they don't in reality and the opposite might be true).
That negatively affects player retention moreso for Survivors but also for Killers although not as much. Some Killers might like the chasing but not want to camp or tunnel and a lot of the 'but Killers need to tunnel!' rhetoric might come from people who used tunnelling a lot and are now against Survivors that are so skilled they don't stand a chance against unless they tunnel.
It's anecdotal but I think that's shown in how there are examples of Killers with barely a hundred or two hundred hours who are winning games against teams with Survivors over a 1000 hours. The asymmetrical nature makes it more complicated but in what other game would a player with less than one-fifth to one-tenth the experience pull off wins against far more experienced players on a regular basis? This leads to situations where Killers are faced against Survivors that have multiple times the experience and then against coordinated teams who maul the Killer since their other game skills are underdeveloped for the MMR they're at. That's not a fun experience either.
As well, if Killers do need a buff but Killers needing a buff is disguised by artificially inflated kill rates due to tunnelling then that would also be very frustrating for new players. In the long run, if my data holds true to the playtesters, the only group that isn't disadvantaged by tunnelling being in the game is the ones doing the tunnelling.
Yeah that's an interesting perspective. Nothing much to add besides I wish we could think of some concrete fixes because it's clear with things like 2v8 hooks that the devs want to try other solutions while being fair but maybe haven't gotten there yet.
-
@TheSubstitute said:
That could be one of the reasons it went up. It still doesn't change that a mechanic that unfairly advantages one side needs to be examined and corrected. Take, for example, the games where Otz had people play against Skull Merchant in the Erupting Call of Overbrine era and they couldn't break the 3 gen. It was an unfair advantage and got corrected. Another example was pre 6.1 DH for distance that unfairly elevated escape rates.
If my experience holds true to BHVR's playtesters then tunnelling is the same sort of situation and it provides an unfair advantage that needs to be corrected. Then BHVR can balance if needed. Based off of my experience I don't know if any changes would be needed as the escape rate was overall 44% in the games without tunnelling. It doesn't appear that tunnelling is needed and that it's more people say that because they want a win rate that is significantly greater than that of their opponents (which is the definition of an unbalanced game) and that's why they defend tunnelling.
If the escape rate is 44% without tunneling, they'd need to buff killers a fair bit more to compensate if they want that 60% kill rate right? Because if it's 44% in solo then the escape rate would presumably be higher in a SWF.
Although I guess thinking about it more the SWF escape rate isn't much higher based on this https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405382/new-stats-feb-15th-2024/p1
Also it's interesting to consider how much tuennling impacts those stats they release too.
Anyway, I don't think most killer players need tunneling to do well in the vast majority of games either. Part of the disconnect is a 60% kill rate doesn't seem to be satisfying to many killer players and they only want a 4K which seems to often to lead to a pulling in both directions situation.
Personally I don't mind tunneling as much as camping because camping isn't that interesting for either side especially if it's a killer that's strong at camping, but both seem pretty hard for people to deal with and they have big impacts on game outcomes. That's maybe why they are testing these changes like 70s hook timer.
Tunneling does seem to discourage a lot of new players from playing, so it might be good to change. But it also seems hard to change these things without reworking the game a lot which seems like a lot to do. Maybe UE5 will allow for more opportunities to experiment for both sides…. -
@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792216#Comment_3792216
It was 5.3% of the time I saw tunneling in the original set of games close to two years ago and 26% now. The reason for the nice, neat number is that my original data set had 75 games and my current data set has 100 games.
I'm probably consider something like this again later if I notice major changes. I now have two snapshots of what things were like over different periods of time so it would be interesting to see over a period of time.
Interesting! I wonder if you can even compare changes to things like when "slowdown gets nerfed" or whatever to address these sorts of claims. I think trying to tie some sorts of correlations to the data could be useful, since it may be hard to know how to address these things otherwise.
I still think your original data and conclusion is important, just thinking about the future. -
@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792169#Comment_3792169
Thanks, I didn't filter by maps or time of day as I didn't filter them in the first set of games awhile back either. I also played a mix of builds the first time around so I did the same the second time around. My guess is time of day would probably show a variation in frequency of being tunneled but I just stuck to my regular playing times. What I was more concerned with though was the effectiveness of tunnelling when I filtered results for just games with tunneling and saw there was only 1 survivor win (3E) and 25 Killer wins (3 or 4K).
I originally started this comparison to see how much tunnelling had increased; it was after filtering for the results I realized how much of an effect it had on the match.
Since you brought it up, what was the percentage of your games that had tunneling now as compared to before?
Do you think you'll do this again or anything similar? Really cool to see this since I had kinda wondered if it was the case but there's not so much evidence lol. -
@TheSubstitute said:
As background I recently did a comparative group of sessions on solo queue play between sessions that were close to two years apart.
I summarized and showed all of the data on the two sessions and provided links to the videos of the games here.
There are a total of 175 solo survivor games worth of data between the two sessions The most concerning data showed that, over two years, my escape rate fell from 45.3% to 26%. As well, the actual escape rate was 31% for all survivors overall in the current sessions. However, when the games without tunneling and camping were excluded from the data set the average escape rate was 44% for all survivors. When only games with tunneling and camping were included the escape rate was 7.69% for all survivors. When I examined the previous set of games it turns out the main driver behind the reduction in escape rates between the two sessions was that tunnelling had increased five fold.
That much of a divergence in results would signify that the kill rate data used for balancing is flawed and will get worse if tunnelling becomes more common. Unless your analysts are specifically viewing each game and determining if there is tunnelling there would be no way to determine the disproportionate effect it has as tunnelling is not linked to more easily measurable data such as perk picks and Killer choice. As BHVR keeps on introducing perks with incentives to not tunnel and the entirety of the Emblem system is hindered by camping and tunnelling it does not appear tunnelling is your design choice.
However, an easily available tactic that increases win rates by that amount against a subset of players is concerning. Solo queue survivors do constitute a large portion of the playerbase and it is not human nature to continue playing a game for entertainment if your chance of succeeding is less than 10%. As well, balancing Killers off of a kill rate that is inflated by tunnelling will lead to frustration among Killers who will then feel forced to tunnel or will drop the game as tunnelling would be inflating the kill rates enough it would appear there is a problem when there isn't one (assuming tunnelling is not the intended play style).
It also suggests that tunnelling is too effective for solo queue to be able to handle consistently. My escape rate was at over 45% before tunnelling substantially increased in my games and, when tunnelling was removed from the equation, the overall escape rate in the current set of games was 44%. This strongly suggests the issue is tunnelling. The skill floor to counter tunnelling may simply be too high for a random group of teammates with no way to communicate or coordinate perks to counter while the skill floor is extremely low to tunnel and it's extremely effective.
As I've been playing since a bit before the introduction of MMR there is no question my MMR should have stabilized as I've been playing throughout the entirety that MMR has been around. All changes that have been made since the two sets of data for Survivors has been positive (hook grab removal, status icons introduced, bots for DCs introduced) and yet escapes have been cut significantly.
My suggestion is that to determine if this is a phenomena that is not restricted to just my experience would be to have your playtesters queue into solo queue games and measure the escape rates versus tunnelling and non-tunnelling Killers over a large enough sample size. If the same phenomena occurs with your playtesters you might to consider taking much stronger action against tunnelling than you have in the future as it would be distorting your data, preventing you from making accurate balancing decisions and negatively affecting player retention.
Neat data. I wonder how much other changes like map changes have impacted this, and I also wonder if you are including people giving up.
I'm curious if you standardized other variables in this, like time of day played or using the same strength of build? I don't think build matters much in solo, but if I am going to have better solo games they will pretty much always be during the day. -
@TheSingleQuentinMain said:
Here's a ramble about why I feel the way I feel:
I'm one of those "merciful" killer mains who always gives hatch, never camps, never tunnels on purpose, etc. I find that camping and tunneling make the game worse for both sides, and I'm more interested in having fun than winning. However, there's an issue right now with how if the killer slugs, it will technically kill a survivor faster than hooks because that's two minutes vs hooks which are now 70 seconds a state. To be outright, I was for this change at first because I don't want survivors to ever die on hook. If someone is gonna kill them, it's gonna BE ME! But this does lead to incentive to slug, which is a problem we're having in games has of late. I believe Behavior said that this was done to help discourage camping, which it kind of does, but there are two problems this has led to:
- Killers are slugging because it's more effective.
- Killer pressure has kind of gone down (which I'm kind of okay with in the idea that I want survivors to be able to recover from losing games, but it makes it tougher for me to recover from games I'm losing).
Here's my actual suggestion:
Revert the time change, and make it so when the killer is within 16 meters of the hook, there is a slow down ranging from 30% to 0%, depending on how close the killer is within those 16 meters. I'm basing these percentages of the assumption that I did my math right, and every second of hook progress becomes 1.3 seconds.
I'm all for suggestions to my suggestions btw, as well as reasons it's a bad idea.
Slugging a survivor out takes 4 minutes, or 240 seconds. This would still be slower than dying on hook at 140 seconds.
-
At longer ranges you would have to make a prediction style shot, but at closer ranges it keeps a small chance of counterplay on the gun which is a nice thing.
Faster windup would negate or largely reduce both of these. -
I'm glad more people are talking about map design. It is definitely reaching a critical point of issues between the new coldwind tiles and new haddonfield and every other map change.
There are ways to balance maps to make them fair, but making things like haddonfield or new rancid abbatoir and making it small with few, weak resources is not interesting for either side. -
Quick scoping and shooting at those numbers would leave very little room for dodging by the survivor, so the numbers would need to be very carefully looked at. The ideal is to make it so it's difficult but possible to dodge and to not M2 fake.
I've enjoyed the current iteration of slinger alright because it can reward prediction shots instead of just outspeeding the survivor. It can feel good for the slinger player and be respected by the survivor when that happens. -
@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790143#Comment_3790143
No, I wasn't here for 6.1. I joined the game in 2022, this has always been the state of Killer to me. And no, I am not frustrated at playing Killer, not a single thing I said even remotely suggests this… but you certainly sound frustrated with Survivor since you typed paragraphs for my one paragraph. Please don't put words into my mouth and assume just because you're frustrated with your experience. :(
Okay, so you don't realize that killer has in fact gotten MANY basekit buffs. Survivors gain less speed on hit, killers have faster cooldown on hit, pallets are kicked faster, and so on. Many basekit buffs have been given to killers, but just because you haven't personally seen it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
And the rest is pretty petty to say lol but pretty much you wouldn't be saying gen speeds and coordination of a team is a problem if you could play around it like many killer players can.
Good luck in your journey! -
@ReverseVelocity said:
Sometimes it feels like I get an alternate universe version of Rotten Fields because I see people saying that it's empty but that's just not how it is. I get a bunch of safe tiles on that map a lot.
Sometimes that can happen, but it's still spread so far apart you often can't get to them before you get hit/die.
It may also be the case that our definition of safe is different. -
Some casuals probably want to do achievements that are related to certain maps, I've seen that reasoning. But that's not a very good reason for everyone else having a hard time with them lol.
-
I'd really like to know what the logic is behind keeping map offerings. I can't imagine what it is at all. Even for casual players wouldn't you want them to experience a variety of maps?
-
I wonder if some of this has to do with some survivors that may be waiting for chaos shuffle or 2v8 to return. I've seen people saying they only want to play that mode now.
Maybe more incentive will help with that, but I've seen a lot of switching around with the incentive lately. It'll probably sort itself out soon? -
@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789504#Comment_3789504
I do not see a single reason why Survivors can have a bunch of basekit stuff, but Killers who are low mobility can't. You do realize bloodlust is the only basekit catchup mechanic Killers have right? When was the last time you felt threatened by Bloodlust? Never, right?
Now when was the last time as Killer you had to watch out for basekit Borrowed Time, coordination, fast gen speeds, repeated clustering around the same gens, unhooking super close to you, complete denial of pressure tactics, etc?
They just do not compare.
Killers have gotten a bunch of basekit stuff, were you not here for 6.1? What about hooks respawning? What about improved regression on gen kicks? Also do you realize I could do the reverse with your logic? We can't give killers basekit buffs because then Nurse and other S tiers will have them!
(I do think S tiers would be better off not existing and of course allowing for buffs that are healthy for the weaker killers)
Also for your strange question about bloodlust, I am threatened by bloodlust basically every game I play as survivor unless the killer is using their power constantly. Most loops are bloodlustable now but even if I win a mindgame I am dealing with that very potent mechanic quickly so I cannot loop anything for long. I don't really know what the point of saying this was though, do you also wanna ask how often I am affected by the window blocker?
The rest of your post reads like you are frustrated at your experience playing killer. I suggest you play some more 1v1s or watch competitive events or get coaching or ask someone to practice/improve because there are lots of killer players who are eating insanely well right now. -
I hope coldwind gets another pass and the tiles are made more usable. I'm with you.
-
@tubalcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788899#Comment_3788899
"Making regression basekit will only allow killers to run even more unfun perks like anti-chase perks, which will then cause them to get their regression up and a regression loop going even faster and more reliably. It would not be fun(well I guess killers will enjoy because it'll be easier, but it's not good for the game's health long-term unless we have a comp meta/ranked mode I guess)."
So none of this applies to the half dozen basekits survivors have gotten over the past few years? What would you say when killer say this to you?
I can see where you're coming from, but let's do the reverse for fun.
Okay so killers get all regression basekit and super slow healing and items nerfed etc, and survivors get full anti camp anti tunnel anti slug and killers all get super nerfed in chase.
I'm pretty sure this is not a deal you'd want to take.
To answer your question directly, besides basekit endurance off of hook survivors haven't gotten any perks basekit at all. There were new features added. The situation is different.
To be less literal about it, both sides have gotten basekit changes and much of the ones survivors have gotten have been due to killer players using incredibly simple strategies that have little depth. Yes you could change old skull merchant 3 genning, but then another killer could do it extremely well and not wish to engage in normal gameplay from the start. So they made a basekit change. This change doesn't impact most games even, but I think you are comparing this to having lots of regression basekit which is odd to me.
To fully address the logic I used, survivors did not get anything they ran before made basekit and so therefore they still need to run things like anti-tunnel or anti-slug and so on to be effective against the best killer strategies. If killers got their absolute best perks basekit that would be super massive, it'd be like if survivors got DS or UB or OTR or an exhaustion perk basekit which would indeed change the game quite a lot.
This is why it hasn't happened and why BHVR is focusing on making maps weaker for survivor while buffing each killer individually. I think they could go about this better personally but I don't think making regression basekit is the solution.