kosaba11
kosaba11
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973808#Comment_3973808
Dont get touched by it that much, I didnt watch anime but I will stand for that he didnt deserve it. I get mos players hate to face him but thats devs fault they gave him many changes even gave us their opinion what they want him to be and still after many years of experience they cant decide if they want to go with him to the right or left, straight or back they just dancing with the changes like drunk man on the sidewalk.
Oh, I assure, I'm not mad (can thank my meds for that). While I really don't like facing the Ghoul, it's just a joke we have. We have jokes for basically every Killer.
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@Abbzy said:
Saing his tortue was justified because you hate to play against him in dbd is most mature thing.
I mean, my post is mostly a joke. I have zero context as to the scene or characters as I've never seen or read Tokyo Ghoul, I'm just ranting because each Ghoul match I've had today has been, in a word, heck. And it's kind've a running joke amongst my friend group that, thanks to Kaneki in DBD, we are never watching Tokyo Ghoul because it'll give us flashbacks.
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Tf are you talking about? You could always turn off your brain while playing Clown. You just need to use a different bottle now, that's the only change to his gameplay.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973028#Comment_3973028
Who said it's meant to combat tunneling?
You know, survivors always whine and complain about this power or that perk not having counterplay. Fog Vials have no counterplay. It's an infinite use item that is pretty much always available that just lets you win chases in dead zones for free.
It's an item that gives you a chance to get away during a chase - that's what is needed to combat tunneling. There's nothing you can do to really prevent someone from only focusing on one person. Sure, you could punish them, but BHVR has already stated they won't do that. Therefore, there needs to be a counter, and the Fog Vials fill that role.
As for counterplay, there are plenty of methods. Perks that make the Survivor's scream, certain aura perks, some add-ons, etc. The removal of the scratch marks and aura only last while you're in the fog. The right build, and simple awareness, can counter the Fog Vial. Plus, some Killers have built in powers that make keeping track of Survivors easier.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973001#Comment_3973001
It shouldn't affect sound at all.
Well, seeing as it's a tool meant to combat tunneling, allowing the Killer to hear the Survivor defeats that purpose. Maybe a good balancing point would be making it to where the Survivors can't hear the Killer either, but apart from that, allowing the Killer to have an easy way to track the Survivors through it would make the item functionally useless.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/452357/fog-vial-survivor-opinion
Its pretty busted and honestly really annoying to have to play against. It was nerfed and somehow its still not balanced
I've yet to play as the Killer against the Fog Vial, so I can't say I have an opinion on it, but while it allowed the Meg to get away when I used it, the Houndmaster still found her in the end. Maybe it's an accessibility issue? I'm not sure, all I know is this is a necessary item to help combat tunneling - though that didn't really help the Meg that much, cause that Houndmaster was determined, let me tell you.
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Expect it to be like this until BHVR learns what the word "Balance" means. I've played plenty of games with horrible balance (Overwatch, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, etc.) but this game's balance is horrid. Like, it's not even the toxic strategies at this point, it's just how unbalanced it is. I'm sorry, but their biggest mistake is shooting for 60/40 instead of 50/50. Balance does not happen unless it's 50/50.
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Well, I was playing before there were so many Killers, so my first Killer was Trapper. Eventually I began maining Huntress, and then moved on to Clown. Then I switched to Trickster, and now I main Vecna and Springtrap.
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To be honest, I've never had a proper match against him. Either one of my teammates screw us over (or that one time I was really flubbing it for some reason) or the Kaneki is really toxic and going for slugs only. So, I guess in that regard, yes he's boring to play. In fact, I'd go as far as to say he brings out the worst behavior on both sides, which is never fun. I think if he had a little less mobility, he's be more fun to face, cause at the moment he has better mobility than even Blight due to how easy and how quick he can catch Survivors and how difficult it actually is to dodge him.
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@PlotTwister said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968737#Comment_3968737
You gotta be careful with comments like this, saying that there's any justifiable reason to DC could get you banned for promoting 'negative behavior'. I'd delete this before any of the mods show up.
I would, but I don't mind getting banned so long as what I did gets people thinking about what's wrong with the game and how to fix them. If BHVR or their mods have issues with that, then that's on them and just shows their priorities.
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It's a two pronged issue. On the one hand, yes people shouldn't be rage quitting at the first sign of inconvenience, but on the other, you have to look at the many reasons why people rage quit.
There are the unjustified reasons -
- You don't like the Killer
- You were hooked first
- You were downed
Then there are the justified reasons -
- You're being tunneled
- You're being slugged
- You're being camped
And there are more than that, but those are three examples for each. Obviously, yes, there are some things that can't and shouldn't be fixed - after all, it's a PvP, both sides get the chance to win. Those individuals are going to rage quit even if all the issues this game has are fixed and it became perfect - some people only want easy wins. Now, there are also the things that can and should be fixed, but are currently being ignored. And three of those things are what I listed in the justified reasons.
Tunneling - The Fog Vial from the PTB is a good start, but from what I've heard and seen feedback wise, it's not as good as advertised. It's not thick enough and is also causing accessibility issues, meaning it doesn't really fix or combat tunneling unless the Killer is far away.
Slugging - This one has an easy fix that would need to be balanced, but far too many people refuse to even have the conversation because they think it'd be far too powerful - Making Unbreakable base kit. I had a suggestion for a place to start in terms of balancing it so that it only punishes players who are hard slugging (the people who down the whole lobby) and not anyone else - and this includes people who soft slug (when the Survivors are all right there so you might as well down them too). Obviously, this was met with a lot of hate and no real constructive conversation, but that's to be expected of this forum.
Camping - The bar meter is fine, but by specifying "face camping," it ignores the proxy camping and just standing ever so slightly out of its range. Now, I'm sure someone smarter than me could come up with a better solution, but the current one simply is not effective, even when the Killer is face camping.
Fix these issues, and the people who leave because of these issues will stop rage quitting for those reasons. And of course, there are many more issues that need to be fixed - the matchmaking, several perks and add-ons (on both sides, as there are some useless perks and add-ons on both sides), the stale gameplay loop for Survivors, the power of certain Killers (some are too weak and some are too strong), etc. Obviously none of these can be fixed over night, but they do need to be fixed. The only thing we as players can hope for is that BHVR cares enough to do so, but with their track record, I'm afraid I don't have much confidence.
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@vinom086 said:
hii guys , I'm inew here
Run.
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I mean, is anyone surprised? BP don't mean anything and it's not like the disconnect penalty is that bad - of course the people who constantly "Go next" were going to just leave the match without the ability to kill themselves on hook. All removing the ability to unhook yourself did was remove the possibility for hero plays from Survivors who got lucky or letting another Survivor attempt for hatch - it was never to going to cut down on toxicity.
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I assure you there is more important things to do than give more killers insane mobility. Each Killer is already faster than the Survivors, and the Killer with high mobility already make it feel unfair for the Survivors, as there's not much you can do against them. If they improve the Survivor experience then I'd be all for buffing a few of the weaker Killers, but until then no Killer should be buffed or nerfed.
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Not in my games. Gosh darn teammates refuse to touch the darn things even when I've somehow unlocked the ability to loop (or I'm against a baby Killer - which doesn't happen often, but it does happen). But that's just my games.
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It asked about both experiences, what are you on about?
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I tend to have zero issues playing Killer. Getting 4Ks is insanely easy and I don't even use add-ons. And this is with every Killer (that I own, anyway).
EDIT: In case anyone is wondering, no I don't slug, tunnel or camp - I'm a very casual player. Heck, even though I let about 20% of the Survivors I encounter leave (cause I simply don't care enough to be sweaty all the time in a game like this), I still have a Kill Rate of 65.02%. I'd share a screenshot, but I frankly don't know how to take a screenshot on a laptop - I'm not good with technology (no, seriously someone please help - I may be 27, but I'm basically an old man when it comes to technology). Also, I'm aware this is just my experience, and that everyone will be experiencing different kinds of matches, this is just my personal anecdote.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965954#Comment_3965954
And surely that means that updated data would show SWFs being more popular than ever, because there are many more players. Your point is moot. Reminder, this doesn't just count 4stacks. It's 3 and 2 stacks as well. Most of these groups are not good, but they are all groups that exist, probably about 70% of the time. Maybe more than that now because again, MANY more players. I know I for one almost always play SWF, that is, with someone else.
There is no "Killer Mains acting like it's true" because the statistics do not lie. It's just true. The majority of Survs probably are playing with at least one other person, because it's fun to play with friends. Whether or not they are good, well…
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966121#Comment_3966121
I'm sorry you got a bad team. Ghostface does indeed struggle against really good teams. However, even if you have a team, it's not likely they'll be GOOD. Just because 70% of games are SWFs doesn't mean they're all GOOD SWFs. Many aren't.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965834#Comment_3965834
Frankly I think it's just time to remove the chatbox feature entirely, the good it can cause is outweighed by the sheer toxicity of the bad. And profiles should be hidden by default.
Honestly that'd probably be for the best. While I understand the point of communicating, the community is a tad too toxic for it to make sense in keeping it. As for making profiles private by default, I wholeheartedly agree. While I don't care if someone looks at my profile and think that pointing out my stats would hurt my feeling before finding out I don't allow strangers to message me on PS5 because of how often I get hit with those thirst trap spam messages, making their toxic behavior pointless - I understand that I am not everyone. Words can hurt people, and I don't think I need to bring up the statistics to show why.
I know some people say "Just turn off the game," but that doesn't really undo the emotional damage. People need to remember that, for every adult who plays the game, there are still teenagers and other children playing. Should they be? No, but that doesn't mean they don't or won't.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965885#Comment_3965885
Because when the Killer who failed to kill all the Survivors gets held hostage by the end of the game, repeatedly being given only two choices (waste their time and wait the EGC timer out or come to the gate for the final spit in the face), not to mention continously receiving verbal abuse in endgame chat, in their Steam profile, in their DMs — this is NOT the experience they come for. Moreover, the amount of times players get abused simply for playing the Killer Survivors don't like is overwhelming. Survivors get out of their way to act like trash in game, then sprinkle some more abuse in the post-game chat while excusing their actions with "That's what you get for playing Plague//Skull Merchant//Ghoul!"
The difference? Survivors get all the handholding they ask for (my Survivor games have never been easier and I couldn't care less about trying hard or relying on SWF), while Killers are told to suck it up and endure being Survivors' punching bags — unless they literally spend most of their productive hours in the game like it's their job.
Being harassed is never okay, especially over a video game.
As for some of the other things in your comment, first - while I doubt this is a 100% fix to the issue of Survivor's staying at the Exit Gate, I do have a trick that makes Survivors not bother waiting - I simply don't show up. If the Exit Gate has been opened, and I've looked everywhere for them, I assume they're at the gate, so I don't bother going over there. Usually, this makes them just leave. Not every time, but most of the time. I find that, when dealing with bullies, the best option is to not give them a reaction - all players like that want to do is get a rise out of you, so if you don't let them, they won't bother.
However, you also mentioned that Survivors receive "handholding," this is simply not true. The game is currently Killer sided, with Killers receiving perk after perk that allows them to completely negate things Survivors can do. If your Survivor games have been easy, either you're better than you're giving yourself credit for or your MMR is not at the level where you encounter decent-to-pro level Killers. Regardless, one person's experience is not the whole truth of the situation. For example, I'm really good with Killers many others call weak - should my skill alone determine the power of those Killers? Of course not. By that same token, just because you have an easy time with Survivor does not mean the role is having its hand held.
In fact, while these can and are greatly inflated due to various factors (slugging, tunneling, camping, letting the Survivors leave, etc.) you can look at the average escape rate and average kill rate for proof. You can also look at the patches from the previous few years - yes, some Killers have been nerfed here or there, but for the most part, the patches have favored and benefitted Killers, while rarely benefitting Survivors.
Now, if you're struggling with your Killer matches, odds are that you've gotten to the point that the matchmaking thinks you're that good, or the matchmaking simply doesn't like you (lord knows we all know the feeling), but it doesn't mean the Survivor role is filled with really skilled, extremely toxic players. The majority of Survivor players, frankly, aren't skilled enough to pull off having everyone, if anyone, escape consistently.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965404#Comment_3965404
The problem is Blight's power has a limit - as you get better and face better people, just running into them at Mach Ten doesn't cut it anymore; people can and do dodge you like a bull in a Toreador Ring. I've done this to MANY Blights, and even Kanekis. That's the big weakness of these dash and micro-based Killers; you make them whiff once and they whiff HARD. If you're just hoping for his power to save you "because it's oppressive and strong as hell" and you never back it up with the rest of your play being good, you will still be stomped nine ways 'til Sunday.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965471#Comment_3965471
This is true. I think the issue comes when both the game and community themselves though INSISTS that the path to being considered "good" or "winning" is a 4k, all the time, always. And then the game punishes you for doing it too much by slapping you with stronger and stronger opponents that will knock you down a peg regardless of who you play as. Like, guarantee a ton of those Blights and Kanekis you see at high level play aren't actually that good; they're boosted and are probably having a rotten time. Playing a strong Killer doesn't save you from feeling like crap when you get a good team, and never will.
It also, contrary to popular belief, does NOT make it more likely you will win in sequence; those people who pulled off those crazy Blight streaks did it by playing the absolute sweatiest with tons of slowdown or aura. That isn't skilled play of those Killers, that's playing a basic M1 Killer with extra steps and a ton of slowdown. Anyone else who tried that was NOT streaking anywhere near as long, I promise you. The majority of other Killers too during the killstreak fad were hitting 50-100 games in a row even on the weakest Killers and not every Nurse and Blight was ever hitting the 1500+ streaks these streamers were; it was ONLY Nurse and Blight with specific playstyles and builds going on those streaks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965617#Comment_3965617
This is what I'm talking about when I say that the new Killer experience suffers sometimes but nobody seems to care. It's not "anxiety" in the clinical sense, people are not scared of playing Killer. The problem is the pressure to perform and look good without being made fun of if you lose, which let's face it… some Survivor players REALLY like to do. I have had slurs, death wishes, and general horrible treatment thrown at me even if I lose, all because Surv players are generally miserable right now and need to take it out on SOMEONE. It's really that bad. In comparison I can count the number of times a Killer has been a miserable little jerk to my friends and I on one hand. It's a big issue, and it contributes to this anxiety.
That's what bullies do when they feel insecure, they whine and bully to make YOU feel as bad as they do. And often, it hits the least skilled newest players of all. Killer is always a lonely role (unless you're playing an AI Killer or something), so the feeling of several Survs backed up by their friends all mocking YOU specifically for not performing well enough or doing something they deem unfair? Even when you DC out of justified frustration? Even when you simply go stand in the corner and wait, or open the gate for them to leave, or they aren't ACTUALLY mocking you but you feel like they are? Well. It grates. It gets to you after a while. It hurts. You might brush it off or learn to ignore it but the effects are still there, and eventually you just get tired of chasing the same sweaty builds over and over and over and you burn out because it isn't fun anymore. You grow paranoid and soon easily believe ALL Survs are mocking you in secret. And that just isn't a fun feeling.
Because try as some people might to dismiss those feelings in others, even if you don't react… that feeling still hurts a bit. It still gets under your skin and sits in your brain. It's actually psychologically painful and, if actual harassment is involved, even actively harmful. There's actually studies on both ladder anxiety in gaming and how online harassment in gaming can cause psychological effects that can damage a person, this stuff is real.
The other thing that causes this anxiety? The game itself. The game encourages always playing to 3-4k. The game gives increasingly better results in the endscreen for killing more Survivors. The community as a whole has taken 3k+ = win to its logical conclusion and actively blames any player who cannot meet that consistently. But, it isn't always the player's fault if they lose. Sometimes the map is bad, sometimes their perks were outmatched, sometimes the other side was simply BETTER. But the community always seems to infer "lose more = less skill" when these players ask for some reassurance, so of course they feel left out and like they're the problem.
After a while all this pressure to perform and bad experience with Survivors that actually DID mock them for losing, it takes a toll. Some quit. Some play less frequently. Some chase an endless dragon of 4ks they cannot possibly keep forever. If they stay long enough and find their niche they grow out of it. But the fact it occurs AT ALL and then when they go "hey this feels bad" people in the community dogpile them for it? Shameful. Just shameful, no wonder Killer players sometimes doubt their own abilities, grow a perfectionist complex, and play sweaty. Both the game and the community go out of their way to try and scare Killer players off by any means it can.
Yep, that's one of the biggest issues with the game. I'm lucky to be on console, as there is not text chat post-match, so regardless of which role I play, I don't have to deal with the usual toxicity that persists in online games. However, I have seen plenty of screenshots of Survivors and Killers being toxic - though most of them have been from Survivors who were either upset at losing or being sore winners. If I had to give a percentage, I'd guess, of the screenshots I've seen, 80% were from Survivors and the other 20% from Killers.
This toxicity, and pressure, definitely lends to a sense of anxiety when playing the game. I personally don't understand the apprehension to the idea of pointing out something that happens to every player at least once. And it's not like it doesn't happen to Survivors, either. I mean, most Survivor players can understand the pressure of trying to not screw up and become a burden to a team, the pressure of trying to loop the Killer, the pressure of trying to escape, etc. So I really don't understand why it's controversial to say that Killers go through something similar, even if the pressure is different.
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I dunno if I'm the best person to give tips, but I can give a few pointers from how I play them.
For Legion, only commit to Feral Frenzy if the other Survivors are close by, otherwise you'll run out before you reach them. Sometimes it's better to lose a little ground on one person than it is to not get anyone.
For Huntress, try to lead your hatchets. It's a bit difficult, but if you can predict where the Survivor is going to go, you'll hit your hatchet more often. It takes practice, but that's how I do it. In case you don't know what "leading" is, it means to throw (or shoot in a shooter) your hatchet in front of the Survivor, allowing their momentum to carrying them into its path. You can use this for Springtrap, too, but his ax has a shorter distance.
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@ImWinston said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964802#Comment_3964802
- It's like downloading Fortnite (example) for the first time and expecting to immediately get a "victory royale." It's obvious to be outclassed (especially if you're learning, as you say in your comment)... all games PVP work like this. I really don't understand this anxious attitude. If it takes so little to make someone "anxious," perhaps the problem lies in your life in general, not just in video games. When I started DBD (2020), I exclusively played "solo q" survivors... my only hope (at least the first two months) was the killer who granted the hatch, otherwise it was just a long sequence of deaths. So according to this "beginner's anxiety" theory, I should have abandoned DBD, made videos on YT, or come here on the forum to complain🤣
As someone who suffers from clinical anxiety, I can tell you the "Killer anxiety" is not the same as actual anxiety. It's purely the pressure of trying out something new - it won't give you heart palpations or make you suffer random panic attacks, but there is still pressure. Unless you have a horrible time, you won't quit after one or two matches, but that doesn't mean newer players won't feel the expectation to perform good, even if it's your first match.
This goes for any PvP game - when you first start out, you're not yet comfortable with the controls, rules, etc. That's what "Killer anxiety" is for newer players.
And again, for players who've been playing for a while, any new changes will give you a form of anxiety - again, nothing like clinical anxiety, but rather the pressure of the unknown. Players feel this every time a new Killer releases - Survivors don't yet know how to face them, and Killers don't yet know how to play them.
Obviously, not everyone feels this - I typically don't because I watch YouTubers like Spookyloopz and Zet0r, who play the PTB, so I have some sense of knowing what I'm in for each Chapter. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
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Usually Trickster or Vecna, but I've been playing around with Springtrap and Houndmaster lately, since Springtrap is new and I just unlocked Houndmaster. I find both of them quite fun, though I'll be playing around with Oni, Twins and Nemesis since I got them recently but haven't tried them out.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964762#Comment_3964762
Friend, I don't think all of those people are Killer Mains just because they have Killer PFPs. It's more likely most people here play both sides with some relative frequency and it's actually more likely that people who are self-described "Killer Mains" - at least in my experience - also play enough Survivor to know what balance is and isn't for Survivor.
It's people who truly only play one side or the other asking for hard nerfs for the other side, dismissing real balance concerns about either side, or saying things like "Franklin's deserves to be gutted"/"Last Stand needs a buff". At least in my experience.
You should also be aware the person you're quoting is a Survivor Main. They have a Survivor side bias. I'd take them with as much a grain of salt as you take Killer Mains.
It's definitely true that there are plenty of Survivor mains who only care about the Survivor experience, and those players shouldn't really be listened to any more than the Killer mains who only care about the Killer experience.
The problem isn't necessarily that there are players on both sides demanding hard nerfs that ruin the experience for whichever side they don't play, as all players can do is voice an opinion - regardless of how unhealthy that opinion would be for the game. The issue is that BHVR seemingly only listens to one side of the debate when they balance the game. Now, when I say they're only listening to that specific minority of Killer mains, this is purely an inference based on how often the updates screw over Survivors in one way or another - which no actual Survivor main would want (unless they were a masochist). If the updates were exclusively making the Killer role impossible to play, I'd infer the opposite.
In my opinion, as someone who has some knowledge of game design, that this method of balance is foolish. No true balance will come from listening to one side, or only listening to the top players. Obviously, there's the issue of bias - why would, say, Killer mains care about the Survivor experience and vice versa? As for the top players, why would they care about things only affecting people with lower MMR than them? Obviously it's not everyone, but when you ask a small group of people advice on how what needs changing, you're not going to get an accurate read of what needs to be done, but rather what that small group wants done to benefit them.
As for the PTB feedback, I've seen all sorts of feedback - from understandable concerns, like its lack of thickness rendering it not as useable as you'd think to concerns about accessibility issues. I've also seen complaints that boil down to "Survivors don't deserve to escape tunneling," which I doubt would come from people who play Survivor. Of course, in regards to other changes, like to the Killers, I've seen biased Survivor complaints that don't really help the conversation either.
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@ImWinston said:
- I think killers main are really starting to overdo their complaining. The "killer anxiety" video is trending on YouTube right now, as if playing killer is a nightmare or a truly unpleasant experience. In reality, killer queues are among the worst I've seen in recent years (except for 2vs8). Another day, I spent LITERALLY an hour for 3 games... half of it spent in the lobby waiting for a match. If the experience is so bad, why are there so many people who want to play killer? Maybe masochism?🤣 Same thing for "botany"... yes, this perk has improved, but not by much; in fact, I see it rarely used (nothing has changed in the frequency of encountering it), yet it seems to have become the "new" Mikaela's boon according to killers.🤣
To be honest, while I find the Killer role vastly easier to play, it's not exactly wrong to say, especially for newer players, that it can be stressful. This is doubly true when you start reaching the point where the game is placing you against opponents who are far superior to yourself - lord knows I get humbled plenty of times when I'm playing Killer and get too many 3-4Ks.
Now, I personally don't even find those matches stressful - annoying, sure, but more so because the matchmaking decided I was him, when I am, in fact, not him against Survivors that good. But, again, I'm a chill player, so it doesn't bother me.
So, I can understand the concept of "Killer Anxiety" in new players. You are by yourself, and you don't yet know the game, haven't gotten a feel for which perk build suites your playstyle best, and if the MMR hates you, it can easily put you against players you're not yet ready for. I know when I was starting out, this happened a decent amount of times. In older players, though, I imagine it'd realistically only be in response to new Survivor mechanics that, while definitely needed to help mend prevalent issues, they still need to be learned from both sides.
Take the Fog Vial - a necessary item for Survivors to help combat tunneling, but it does have other uses. Killers need to learn around that, especially if they never tunnel anyway, and are just needing to learn how to combat it for normal chases.
But you're right, the queue times are one of the worst parts of playing Killer - more so if you're placed against players better than you, meaning you probably won't get to play for too long.
But, for a balanced game, that's fair for everyone, even people you disagree with deserve to be heard. Otherwise, the game becomes one-sided. Currently, it leans Killer, but it could easily turn to lean Survivor if BHVR starts only listening to Survivors - it's a tightrope they need to walk as developers, and one they're currently failing to do. It's not Killer mains' fault, not even the toxic minority - it's on BHVR for who they choose to listen to and who they choose to ignore.
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I have a few of those moments I can think of.
Had a Steve who, even though it'd make more sense to have just left since it was the Endgame and I was being camped on hook, this madman came over and not only saved my life, but managed to loop the Killer in the process, too. Frankly, I wish I remembered that Steve's name, cause that was the coolest player I've seen.
Had another match where a Renato was doing his best, keeping the Killer, a Nemesis, distracted all game so we managed to do all the gens worry free. Unfortunately, still had a Dwight who chose to lead the Killer over to the Exit Gate as I was only halfway to opening it, which got me killed in the process (the Dwight died too, so karma), but that doesn't negate how decent that Renato was.
And one more, while I was the Killer in this match, I have to give a shout-out to, wherever this person is, a Mikaela who managed to not only save the Feng I had hooked, but then looped my butt like I was a novice for a good 10 minutes. I got her in the end, sure, but that hero play got them two gens done when I had only hooked two people.
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@Lixadonna said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964702#Comment_3964702
Killer Mains are just BHVR's voluntary Balance Consultants. Just take a look at the PTB Feedback
Yeah, I've see the PTB Feedback. Unfortunately, this is one of the many pitfalls BHVR falls into. There's nothing wrong with BHVR looking to Killer mains for feedback on the Killer experience, but they do often look towards Killer mains for the Survivor experience as well. It's like asking a coyote advice on how to make a chicken coop better protected - yes, you'll get advice, but it'll only benefit the coyote.
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There's this habit of a certain, very vocal yet minority in the community who gets upset when they can't get 4Ks every match. This would be par for the course of any gaming community if it weren't for the fact BHVR tends to listen to this vocal minority, ruining the game for everyone else.
Survivors often have their stuff nerfed, with anti-toxicity features being delayed or half-heartedly implemented, and often receiving mostly useless or niche perks.
As for Killers, while the experience rarely becomes bad to play, the whole of that side do suffer both from being the larger scapegoat, and from longer queue times, since the negative impacts on the Survivors often leads to large swathes of players quitting the role or game altogether, which negatively impacts Killer players, who now have to wait even longer just to play, regardless of who or how they play.
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I'd have to actually open the game to look at them to find specific examples, but the majority of Survivor perks are, frankly, bad. They either only work in niche situations, don't work at all, or are limited use, making them pretty useless.
A few examples off the top of my head:
Flashbang - Good on paper, but in my experience, never works, even when timed perfectly. Last time I used it (before I decided it was useless) I had timed it so that it'd go off to free the Jonathan who was being picked up by the Houndmaster (ironically, this was also the only Houndmaster I've ever faced). Even though it gave me the notification that the Killer was blinded, she did not drop Jonathan and he ended up dying.
Unbreakable - Frankly, this should be base kit (though not as is, there's a lot of work that'd need to go into making it balanced), but it only works in the instance that you get slugged, and it only works once, making it both niche and pointless.
Aura Reading Perks (in general) - Yes, it's somewhat useful to know where the Killer is, but the only aura perk that actually gives information that matters is Kindred, since you use that to determine if the Killer is camping. Other than that, and while this is a personal anecdote, I've gotten almost no real benefit out of knowing where the Killer is. Honestly, Killers get more use out of these types of perks than Survivors do.
And that's just what I could think of and remember.
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Maybe it's just me, but I have zero issue playing her. Maybe it's cause I'm not trying to force a 4K (it just kinda happens) and instead are just having fun with her powers and just letting the match happen as it will, but she doesn't feel weak to me. 3-4Ks with her are pretty consistent.
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I think this idea could work, but instead of just straight up turning into a Survivor, since that could easily be beaten if you're playing against friends (which would, ironically, be the only time SWF is actually beneficial), then this Killer would get no real use from the ability. So, add NPCs as a special trial inclusion (like the chests for Vecna, Wesker and Nemesis or the doors for Springtrap), that either walk around the map or just stand still.
Then, have the Killer capable of turning into one of those map NPCs. I imagine this would either be super OP or not very (I don't see it every being truly balanced, but honestly not everything needs to be), but I do feel it could be fun for everyone involved if implemented correctly.
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Well, the abandon option only appears when there's a no-win situation. Technically, you can still win with the Exit Gates open. Really, only Survivors are capable of being put in no-win situations, the Killer still has plenty of options regardless of the state of the match.
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I personally love playing him, and I, for the most part, love facing him. Obviously, when the person playing him brings in a build that makes doing anything as Survivor impossible, or they're being toxic, it sucks and makes me want to put my head through a wall, but that goes for any Killer. Overall, I do enjoy facing him.
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Honestly, this is one of the biggest issues with the balance of the game. If the Killer hasn't killed a single Survivor by the time all the gens are done, they still have ways to win that aren't particularly hard - from perks to strategies, etc. But Survivors? The moment it becomes a 2v1, there's nothing you can really do, especially if you still have more than 1 gen left. That's just not good balance.
While it shouldn't be a guarantee, Survivors need something - a perk, maybe the hatch spawning (but not open), or anything else someone could think of to give them a chance in this no-win situation. Something that won't screw over the Killer, but will give Survivors a chance.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962794#Comment_3962794
I wish you gave the same advice to survivors, when they were complaining about the AFK crows. I wish you had told them "it's not the end of the world", and that they should just deal with the mechanic.
Instead, we had the AFK crows nerfed into uselessness, just so they can't possibly punish innocent survivors. So the same attitude should apply to anti-slugging. The anti-slugging mechanic should NEVER punish innocent killers, because survivors sent a clear message that new game mechanics shouldn't punish innocent players, which is why the AFK crows got nerfed so much.
The AFK crows were a problem, though. They were over-tuned to the point of giving Killers an unfair advantage. Now, yes, increasing the time at which they spawn isn't an inherently bad idea, but BHVR had over-tuned it to the point where they were spawning within seconds, where even doing your tasks wasn't getting rid of them. That's not exactly a fair instance, in fact it led to no-win situations, where, to give an example of something that did happen to me, I had to slowly open the exit gate, as the Springtrap I was facing was going back and forth between his doors - this meant I had to hide nearby. Despite spending a good chunk of that time in Springtrap's terror radius and opening the door, I ended up with all three crows - which got me caught. That's not exactly balanced or fair.
Balance, in terms of anti-whatever mechanics, need to consider actual no-win situations. For example, slugging leads to a no-win situation for the Survivors. Extensive hiding through-out the match leads to a harder time for both sides, which has already had some changes to fix, but obviously there can always be improvements. Completely negating the ability to hide would be like completely removing the ability for Killers to see the generators - maybe not the end of the world, but it does give an unfair advantage to the opposing side.
Essentially, to properly balance, you cannot remove one no-sin situation by creating a new one for the opposing side.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962792#Comment_3962792
the fix to fog vials is reducing radius, duration and making them actually impossible to see through, aka making them work like they did in the events.
making them apply slowdown will not create a fun interaction, it will just make the item into chase resource you invoke when you are screwed
That's fair.
Maybe instead of haste or a slowdown, make each rarity of it have a different radius and up time, with add-ons that don't make the item overpowered, but instead increase duration or thickness of the fog or something. It'd need to be play-tested, obviously, but I agree it should actually work as an appropriate anti-tunneling tool, while creating more diverse chase interactions.
Perhaps having them have a limited number of uses, with an add-on that makes it rechargeable, instead of it being rechargeable from the get-go to help make it fair for Killers, while ensuring it still works as intended.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962675#Comment_3962675
Forced Slugging can happen at any point in the game. For example, there might only be one hook in range, and a teammate might sabotage that hook while the killer is carrying the survivor, and the killer is forced to drop the survivor, and by the time the hook respawns, the slugged survivor will have too much wiggle progress to get to the hook.
If the killer should be punished for leaving a survivor on the ground for too long, then the killer should eventually be given a guaranteed way to hook a survivor before they are punished, right? If the mindset is "killers should always be able to hook survivors, and therefore they can be punished if they slug a survivor for too long", then obviously killers should be give a guaranteed way to hook survivors before they are punished, right?
I would consider that a case of soft slugging, as the Killer technically isn't in a no-win situation. Yes, it does not feel good when it happens, and lord knows it's happened to me more times than not, but it's not an end of the world "Now I need to slug the whole lobby," situation. At that point, you're simply needing to target whoever sabotaged the hook and accept the person you were trying to hook is going to be picked up.
And no, I don't think Killers should get a guaranteed hook, as the anti-slugging suggestion I recommended isn't a get out of jail free card. Yes, it'll help alleviate some issues, but it still leaves room for Killers who are toxic and do hard slug - they just have to down the Survivors more than once. So, since it's not a "You now get to escape," mechanic, just a "You don't have to stay on the ground all game while the Killer takes the easy win" mechanic. It gives Survivors a chance in a no-win situation.
In no-win situations for Killers, they already have the fact the anti-camp mechanic turns off once all generators are finished, by that same token, turning off the anti-slug mechanic would help prevent a no-win situation for Killers as a result of the mechanic.
No side should get free points as a result of the mechanic, as that wouldn't be fair. Survivors don't get generator progress by getting to pick themselves up, so Killers shouldn't get a free hook state as a result either. It's for the sake of fairness.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962718#Comment_3962718
the issue with fog vials is that they just dont actually create a 50/50 / actual opportunity for getaway, it's way too easy to see through them, so you cant really use them in "gamble" ways, they're way too easy to counter.
killer players cry about that, even about current ones, but the surv item that could genuinely give them a way to get away in dead zone, but only if the killer doesn't manage to make a correct read is exactly the kind of item we could've used as a new variable that can help accomplish those clutch moments people play for.
but alas, devs listen to wrong people and we're still stuck in meta where it's better for survivor to take toolbox and just shave off more time off gens or use medkit for free pressure relieve
That is the unfortunate bit, honestly. I can see the intention of the Fog Vials, and it shouldn't really be that hard to make them work - really the only hard part is not messing up accessibility - like how Clown's stuff needed to be adjusted visually due to how bad it was.
Maybe it could be fixed if either Killers within it take a 2 second slowdown to movement speed (obviously Killers with high mobility would like not be affected by it, but Killers like those are always the hardest to balance without making them useless), or maybe giving Survivors temporary haste, so they have more of a chance, but not guaranteed, way to escape inside it.
As for them listening to the wrong people, alas there's nothing we can do about that. In reality, to make a healthy game, developers need to listen to the majority, but many game developers - BHVR not excluded in this - only listen to either the loudest section of the community (who usually aren't the majority), or only listen to the top percentage of players. Doing this normally ruins the balance for everyone else, as the loudest section normally only cares about their fun, and the top percentage of players do not play at the same level as everyone else, making their input skewed and unreliable. After all, no matter what changes are made to the game, the top percentage won't be affected that much, it's everyone else who suffers, no matter which side you play on.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962688#Comment_3962688
I like bhvr's approach of testing things as part of the events. Sadly, I dont like what they are testing there and how it ends up being.
smoke bombs were amazing on their respective events because they could actually enable clutch getaway scenarios that killer could still reasonably counter. the base game version however is just a boring tool of mild annoyance and accessibility hazard.
Personally, my main critique of how BHVR does their testing is that it's never long enough. I do agree that introducing new, potentially permanent, features in events is a good way to ease those ideas in, but once they decide they want to make it permanent, they put it on the PTB and then make it go live with little to no actual changes from the feedback on the PTB.
I like the Fog Vials for what they're meant to counter, but I do think they need more testing than one PTB - like a lot of changes, like the Pyramid Head add-on changes that are making him an unbeatable monster. Good ideas, but they need more fine tuning to make them fair.
In the case of the Fog Vials, I think the biggest issue, from what I've observed anyway (I can really only view YouTube videos, like Spookyloopz, since, as a console player, I don't have access to the PTB), is that, for the Survivors, it doesn't seem to really counter tunneling like it's intended to, as the Killer can still see you if you're within a certain range. And from the Killer's POV, it does need a visual overhaul - something that will ensure it performs as it's meant to without being an accessibility nightmare.
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@Zuiphrode said:
So, basically, you want to bring back the thing where a surv can just beeline into a corner of the map far from hooks with complete impunity?
No, as that wouldn't be fair. The idea, and why I say it needs testing, is to counter toxic behavior, as it would only go into effect if someone is hard slugging. Your pick-up timer would not change from how it is now - you'd still have to heal yourself at the same speed you do now, and each subsequent down would increase the time it takes to pick yourself up. It'd need extensive testing to find the sweet spot, but this feature would only punish hard slugging Killers if tune correctly.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962656#Comment_3962656
I think if we do have a system like that we need to focus on it addressing the core issues we have with current gen system - volatility of pressure they both sides can create by interacting with it.
it's not really an issue on its own, it's good really, but the alternative to generators can be more streamlined to give out more consistent performance.
for example new objective could be a passive timer than survivors can only slightly speed up instead of having to constantly take their time to progress it otherwise it stops. this objective will not let survivors go before or after, for example, 7-8 minutes pass, making it so survivors being objective efficient or inefficient will not have such drastic impact on the match, allowing to make killers harder vs bad survivors and easier vs good survivors which is the kind of changes BHVR should be making sometimes.
I do agree. On a personal level, I just want more or at least something new to do as Survivor, as the gameplay loop is pretty stale. But I agree that it shouldn't come at the cost of the Killer experience (which, I feel, is something that BHVR constantly struggles with - their changes to Killers often come at the cost of the Survivor experience, but there are changes that come at the cost of the Killer experience. A change should only improve the experience for both, not hamper either). That passive timer could be interesting, but it would still need to be balanced right.
While I doubt BHVR would take any of this into consideration, I hope if they do any of these changes - new mini-games, passive stuff, new interactable stuff in general - I hope they do extensive testing instead of one PTB trip and then onto live, like a lot of their… less than ideal changes that we've seen.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/451011/unbreakable-base-kit-suggestion
You forgot about Forced Slugging, where the killer is forced to slug. The killer should not be punished when they are forced to slug.
Like I said, it'd need extensive testing to find the sweet spot. In cases of Forced Slugging, like during the Endgame (the only situation where you can argue that you had to slug), the easiest solution is to turn off the feature - like how the anti-face camping mechanic turns off once all gens are done. But regardless, no solution is perfect, and it's why persistent testing would be necessary - it needs to be strong enough to punish toxic players without being so strong that innocent players are punished. There is a sweet spot, but it'd need to be found.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
I don't understand how some of you.play when about half or more of the killers are on the bottom half of your tier lists tbh
Well, when you enjoy a game, you play it. Now, yes, there are way too many Killers where they're just never fun to face, or depend on the match, that doesn't mean every Killer is unfun to face - and it is mainly down to preference. Frankly, if you're not critiquing a game and its design, then are you really a fan? Criticism is how developers know what areas they need to improve, so letting them know which Killers aren't fun to face or to even play let's them know where to improve, if they even care to look at the forums, anyway.
Tier lists like these can help set an average, to let them know, on average, who is fun to face (i.e. ones who don't really need to be nerfed) and who aren't fun to face (the ones who probably need a nerf).
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962259#Comment_3962259
yeah but the problem is that if you implement these in any impactful way that changes the fundamental "survivors need to spend X amount of fixed time", like doing these minigames successfully greatly speeds up the progress of the objective and failing would slow it down even harder, then it would lead to these exact issues I described above.
It would disproportionately difficult for the survivors at low skill level than it would be for killer to kill them normally and when survivors do optimize that, then the killer would be tremendously struggling as survivors will have yet another leverage to limit killer's time and options.
and if you mean just different skillchecks with otherwise same impact, that might work, but you need to consider that these should be something people can reasonably figure out fast enough but something they all cant immediately perfectly do with high consistency.
The equivalent of hitting good skill checks should be easy and hitting greats should be hard.
This is very true, and where spending more than a month on the PTB comes into play. In my opinion, it could work, but they'd need to try out various different mini-games to figure out which ones provide the same or similar lengths of time and challenge. Now, I'm not sure if BHVR is willing to spend that much time on revamping the system, but it'd be a worthy investment of time. I have a few ideas of mini-games they could attempt, but even those would need extensive testing so that way they're fair for both sides.
@Lexilogo said:
The issue with suggestions like this is how many Perks already revolve around things like Generators. Even Blood Generators in the previous Blood Moon event apparently didn't have enough time for Generator perks to be ported over to work on them. For stuff like fuseboxes or puzzle locks it'd be impossible to port Generator Perks over to work on them. Even something as small as a different repair minigame means Skill Check Perks get impacted.
I don't think alternate, map-dependent escape methods can really fit into DbD because of how core Generators are to the game. It could be cool for more alternate gamemodes (and for the record, I'm in the camp of arguing Generators should be experimented with ideas like the blood moon event's canisters for something eventually good enough to fit into 1v4 and make the game less stale) but the game can't completely flip the script on the core gameplay in its base maps.
I do think BHVR have done a pretty good job so far of being experimental with their maps, though. We've gotten things like the Nostromo's unique gas traps and Forgotten Ruin's portals not too long ago. These gimmicks certainly aren't always good, but they prove you can get creative with maps in DbD's format without needing to upend the whole game.
This issue is also a fair concern, but I think it could have a simple fix. All they'd really have to do is make each of the gen perks work on the new mini-games as well, especially if it's just switching up the mini-game being played. Again, this would need extensive testing so that way none of the gen perks from either side become useless, but it is possible.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
cool idea but you do realize that this won't be very engaging to play after the novelty effect wears of?
generators are not very fun mechanics, but they are the way they are so that they keep people stalled and easy to find while giving killer time to play for chases.
look at how recent bloodmoon event played out. removing "sit in one place contributing time to complete objective" dynamic made the game feel fresh but it also broke it in all kinds of ways, resulting into a very boring hit&run meta for killer and stealth meta for survivor.
killers could not commit to chases because their best form of slowdown was to keep finding people to stop them from depositing cans and survivors could avoid being found and pressured in normal ways because the area where they could be spanned way further than one location.
the bloodmoon cans also were a very high skill floor / ceiling mechanic. bad survivors struggled A LOT MORE with juggling cans while strong players quickly figured out how to optimize them to be completed even faster and safer than normal generators.
this did not make up good gameplay, it just made the game even more uninteractive and onesided as the cost of the mistake was even higher.
While this is true, and maybe not ever escape option would be viable, simply changing to type of mini-game that is needed to complete the objective would go a long way in refreshing the game, while a visual overhaul for these new mini-games would give more freedom for more dynamic maps. The Killer loop wouldn't be affected, as Survivors would still need to sit in one place, it would just be a different mini-game Survivors needed to complete. Additionally, with more dynamic maps, you could still add new things for Killers to interact with as well, so the change isn't one-sided.
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@TheGoone said:
i made a post about this but the Devs were testing basekit UB and Tenacity for chaos shuffle and just like way back that UB was just to strong to have basekit and they still think so now.
You know, it really should not be hard to make Unbreakable base kit without making it OP. Keep the bleed-out timer where it is and increase the amount of time it takes to pick yourself back-up by a certain percentage each time you're knocked down. Put it through the PTB, and instead of doing one increment, constantly update it according to feedback to reach the sweet spot where it helps counter slugging without being too overpowered for Killers who aren't slugging - like when Survivors are within eyesight of the downed Survivor so the Killer either attacks them to get them away or risk a save.
Then change Unbreakable to either decrease the percentage at which the timer increases, or make it give your endurance when you pick yourself back up.
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Thank you for this, I had no idea how to make these.
Anyway, here's my personal list (for clarification, I've barely faced Houndmaster and Dracula, so they're in 50/50 by default - also the 50/50 are the Killers where it just depends on the match. Could be fun one match, miserable the next.):
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962068#Comment_3962068
Escaping 40% of the time means that enjoying survivor role is “impossible against the majority of killers?” What is your average escape rate? If it’s around that 40% average, the only explanation for your statement is that you have wildly unrealistic expectations for how often you should be escaping. If it’s significantly below the 40% average, then that’s an issue with your own gameplay, not a fundamental game balance issue that applies to all players.
Escape rate means nothing to me. I don't even care about escaping. I've done five Survivor matches today, only had one crap match, while the other four were fun. And I only managed to escape twice. Maybe my expectations are too high when I expect a PVP game to be fun and balanced and not skewed to one side. Defeat can be just as fun as victory so long as the balance is fair. Unfortunately, as of now, that just isn't the case.
Whether it be because of BHVR's horrible idea of balance, the amount of toxic players (on both side, while most of my matches are ruined by the Killer, I've had plenty ruined by my teammates), or whatever the reason, the game is not in a healthy state right now, making it darn near impossible to actually enjoy Survivor even half the time.
Survivors need milk to help counter toxic behavior, more things to do in general to help with the stale gameplay loop that the Survivor side has had to deal with for the entirety of the game's existence, maps in general need a rework to be more balanced for both sides, and there are some Killers who need help because they're struggling even at low-MMR.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962034#Comment_3962034
ironic that you use the word “toxic” while contributing nothing but divisive “us vs them” rubbish into the discussion.
If you're offended by what I said, then you're the toxic side of the community I was talking about. The majority of Killer Mains aren't toxic - they rarely employ toxic strategies and don't care about the "strategies" that the toxic side of the community claims is toxic.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962023#Comment_3962023
General, you looks different! How have things been? :)
I'm actually sorta with you on Wesker. He's not that much fun, I think there's other Dash Killers that feel more fun. Also I've run into A LOT of really rude Weskers. It's kinda tainted my opinion of the character.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962029#Comment_3962029
I mean this very kindly and seriously: If you truly find 95% of the Killer roster unfun and unfair, do you even really enjoy DBD?
Yes, I enjoy the Killer role, and I want to enjoy the Survivor role as well, but that's proving to be impossible against the majority of Killers. Now, I can see where certain Killer can be fun to face - I have had fun matches against a good chunk of the Killers, but either due to the horrible balance or due to facing too many toxic players, most of the Killers do not feel fun to face most of the time.