dugman
dugman
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@malloymk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2845243#Comment_2845243
I gathered a lot more from his post than that. Seems like you just want to argue on the forums. Have at it I guess.
Right, I'm the one that wants to argue. 🙄
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@malloymk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2844912#Comment_2844912
Way to move the goal posts.
What goal posts? He made a silly statement that the only implication I could draw from it is that slugging is somehow unfair and winning with slugging isn't an actual win.
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@cluxdx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2844952#Comment_2844952
I think that's an incredibly shortsighted take.
A lot of people play a certain way because of MMR because the system inherently punishes them for trying to have fun. If you die because you ran and saved 2 people during EGC resulting in a 3 man out instead of a 2 man out, why do you "lose" when the rest of team only won because of you?
MMR is not needed in DBD because winning and losing are not the sole thing that determines "fun" in the game. That said, if you're going to have an MMR system it needs to take hooks into account as well as unhooks, heals, etc. They could still base the general win/loss idea on kills/escapes, but at the very least give killers bonus points for getting x number of hooks and/or give survivors bonus points for every heal/save, so if you're a team player or don't tunnel your ass off at least when you lose you don't lose as bad.
I agree that the game should have been designed from the outset as the survivors being an actual team that win or lose as a group. This whole semi-cooperative thing rarely works.
Unfortunately semi-cooperative “every survivor for themselves but not really” is what we have, and in that setting yes, you lose if you get yourself killed saving the others.
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@cluxdx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2844912#Comment_2844912
When did I ever say that? It is a tool, and I do not have some entitled attitude that makes me think that anyone has any inherent right that the other side plays a certain way. That said, I think we should all be able to acknowledge a 4k with 12 hooks is typically more impressive than, say, camping a guy to death then getting a gimmicky victory off NOED/No Way Out.
Skilled plays =/= wins because bleeding survivors out on the ground with no hooks is not skillful
How else am I supposed to interpret that sentence other than “slugging isn’t a legitimate win”?
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@jesterkind said:
I also thought the hockey metaphor was a little flawed, but it's really time to let it go.
What he was getting at with it - that kills are a reliable indicator of skill when taken across a large batch of games - wasn't even that controversial, it seems most people just get hung up on the idea of an individual match's skilful play when they talk about the MMR.
Agreed. The whole point is kills and escapes are a reasonable proxy on average for a win or loss. MMR isn’t meant to evaluate how a win or loss occurs, it’s just there to put killers who “get a lot of kills” against survivors who “get a lot of escapes”. And it actually does work in that when all the players in the match are about the same MMR it’ll be a reasonably good matchup. The issues with the matchmaking algorithm have less to do with MMR being based on kills versus the system ignoring the MMR altogether in the interest of making matches quickly to backfill lobby dodges and to do with what rating the system wants a killer to be when you have a high rated survivor in a swf with a low rated one, for example.
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@cluxdx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2844891#Comment_2844891
A lot of people joke about it, but the thing is it genuinely does highlight a lack of understanding of how people like to play the game. The comparison they gave was shots —> goals —> wins therefore wins = skill, but that directly implies the game is as simple as do gen, open gate, leave.
My issue is with how the metaphor was used. Skilled plays =/= wins because bleeding survivors out on the ground with no hooks is not skillful, and camping a gate while all your teammates die and the killer looks for the hatch is not skillful. The usage of that metaphor to justify not tracking hooks, unhooks, heals, sabos, chase time, etc. is the issue I'm getting at, and I think it's pretty clear a very large chunk of the playerbase takes issue with it if these forums, content creators and Steam stats are anything to go off of.
So now “slugging” is somehow cheap or unfair, got it.
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Try Make Your Choice and her Scourge Hook that shows you the auras of the survivors after the rescue to help you track the exposed player.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2844889#Comment_2844889
They did a flash sale in the game store they have not done that before. Plus whenever they do a sale, the discounts are pretty big. Usually if games and dlc are selling well they only do sales were things are like 30% off max
Actually they did a big sale in March last year too for instance
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I can’t be the only person who thinks people harping on the hockey thing are overblowing the metaphor, right?
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@[Deleted User] said:
I don't believe the steam charts data is that convincing, but i find it weird they are doing so many sales and a free weekend all of a sudden. I hope it means the game will get better though. Because i think the game is good/alright but a there's a lot of badly designed stuff in the game that stops it from being great. It's a frustrating experience for many people and i hope this makes the devs take them seriously. Sadly though, it looks they'll just go down the path of doing sales and whatever until the game crashes and burns. It definitely will not for a while though.
Why is it weird to do a sale when a new chapter comes out?
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I don’t usually notice the walking animations outside the endgame screen since I only play killer, but Sadako’s animation is fun since it looks like she’s shambling but intentionally out of sync with the speed she moves. Spirit is kind of the same way but Sadako looks a little creepier I think.
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I like playing him. Actually my favorite part of his kit is the trails and cages, I’m not even that into his ranged attack honestly. It feels really satisfying getting Cages and killer instincts from trails though. 🙂
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Personally I like the Twins well enough. 🤷♂️ I actually have fun playing them fairly aggressively versus just camping. Victor is extremely fast with built in Bloodhound so he’s actually great at scouting. And because he can attack one or two people, then Charlotte can either move in for a kill or carry or attack someone else on the way, they’re really good at splitting pressure over two or three survivors. You just have to go in knowing that you probably shouldn’t chase too often with Charlotte and I avoid using perks that don’t work while I’m Victor.
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@Tranquil_Blue said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2844705#Comment_2844705
I don't think a luck offering would do much at all for your bloodpoints. Unhooking yourself only gives 500 bps, and the bp offerings actually give extra bps on top of what's earned in-game.
Regarding luck: If you use Slippery Meat and Up the Ante and a luck offering, you have a pretty good chance of pulling yourself off the hook. It works even better if you're playing with others who do the same (luck offerings and Up the Ante stack). Is this really a good way to use your perks? Probably not.
Just to clarify what I meant, if you escape versus die that’s a 5000 point swing in the endgame score. So if something, for example, gives you a +10% chance to escape then it’s worth about 500 bloodpoints in a sense. So for example, if carrying a key means you get out 10% more often, then keys are worth at least 500 bloodpoints or more to you. (I say “or more” because there are also extra bonus points involved such as escaping as the Obsession or while fully Condemned, etc).
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@Mandy said:
Nothing has changed with the percentages. It could be that people are using luck offerings more etc
On a total tangent, that really makes me curious, are luck offerings actually any good? It feels like survivors trying to pull themselves off a hook is almost always a really bad idea regardless of the luck offerings, you’re way better off waiting for rescue unless you know for sure nobody will be coming. And Luck as a stat, as far as I know, only affects that one action of pulling yourself off a hook.
It makes me wonder what the relative effectiveness of Luck offerings and abilities are compared to other options. Does a luck offering on average indirectly reward the survivor about the same amount of bonus bloodpoints as a bloodpoint offering for instance? I never get the sense that they do but there’s not stats to go by so it’s all speculation on my part. 🤷♂️
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I think buffing Deep Wounds itself could be a good way to go. It feels like it’s maybe just not quite scary enough of a condition in practice. Consider how many survivors, for example, go out of their way to bodyblock while they have Borrowed Time up. Tweaking Deep Wounds a bit to make it slightly more formidable such that survivors actually take more of a pause before considering being hit with a Deep Wound would not only help Legion but also help any other perk or add-on or ability that uses it.
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I agree, I like playing her a bit more than Wraith because I like that she continues moving at survivor speed while Manifesting compared to Wraith coming to almost a completely stop for a few seconds. She just feels much more fluid in terms of her being able to in and out of stealth at will without sacrificing a lot of movement in the process. And her teleport likewise feels a lot more fluid than Freddy’s.
I think the main trick in learning to play her well is finding a good balance between using simple stealth to get close to survivors for a hit versus projecting through the TVs to get close for a hit. Projecting helps build up Condemned stacks, which can increase pressure on survivors to take a bit of time off the gens to deal with removing it, but it also somewhat restricts the angles you can approach survivors from and they can more easily get a head start during a projection to run away toward safety. Approaching on foot is slower and doesn’t build up the Condemned meter but it allows you to use cover more effectively and get a bit closer potentially before the survivor reacts to your presence.
Either way, like all stealth killers, she needs to find a way to get hits quickly at the start of a chase before the survivor can reach safety. Once a survivor gets to a pallet she can still eventually get a hit but it will take a while since she’s mostly just a basic killer at that point (her on and off invisibility can help somewhat but it’s not nearly as good as a dedicated anti-loop ability.)
And which method of approach works best will also probably depend in part on the specific players you’re up against, as well as your individual comfort level with sneaking versus bursting out of TVs with the speed boost. So I don’t know if there’s a simple one size fits all strategy.
At the moment, I lean toward teleporting frequently if only because it’s fun, often gets you into chases quickly, and builds up Condemned stacks. But ultimately the sneakier approach has to be used too.
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I played her a bunch the other day and she seems fun. 🙂 In terms of effectiveness I think she's probably a bit better than Wraith but not great. (I'd rate Wraith probably 2 out of 5 stars overall and her maybe 2 1/2 or 3 stars.) Personally I could use some practice on her to get used to her shorter point of view and survivors occasionally running through her while she's Demanifested. Like all stealth killers she's more susceptible to survivors who are paying good attention to their surroundings but also probably does better than average against survivors who are tunnel visioned on other things. And I do prefer how her Manifesting works versus Wraith's Uncloak where she essentially is always moving at survivor speed even while Manifesting.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2844190#Comment_2844190
1) Freddy can cancel his though
2) If you're teleporting to survivors who aren't on gens, you are going to lose. You're an m1 killer. Not the nurse. You can't just win off raw chases against remotely decent survivors
3) In the CoH meta the only benefit you get off of sadakos back to back teleports is checking a generator to see if its being worked before quickly going elsewhere. If you are teleporting often you will lose because you are either not getting chases or you are dropping your chases to go elsewhere which is lose by default if CoH is in play. Additionally each TV has a much higher cooldown than an individual teleport, While having map presense everywhere sounds good. Its much stronger to be better at defending a hot spot. Map presensce everywhere means dealing with pallets everywhere and never getting deadzones. You are an m1 killer. You will lose if that happens
- I didn't say Freddy couldn't cancel his teleports. I was correcting you when you implied that Sadako's animation was somehow too long when it's actually the same length as Freddy's charge to teleport.
- If you are teleporting -randomly- to survivors who aren't on gens then it's probably not a good idea. But there are times where you can, for instance, teleport to someone who you have an aura for at a distance and know is injured and get a quick down. Then teleport back to a gen afterward.
- If Freddy teleports and there's no survivor there he's out of luck. If Sadako teleports and there's nobody there she just teleports somewhere else immediately. And Freddy can't teleport to the same generator multiple times any more than Sadako can teleport to the same TV multiple times. But the difference is Sadako can teleport between two or three or four TVs fairly frequently to help patrol them, something Freddy's teleport can't do. (He can bluff teleporting to a generator but he can't actually go there two or three times if necessary.)
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842910#Comment_2842910
Hard disagree on the freddy teleport, the only thing her teleport does better is potentially snuff a boon totem IF you know where it is. Freddys teleport takes you to gens, which is hwere you need to be, if the gen is completed you no longer should be spending time in that area. On top of that she has a lengthy animation after doing a teleport where she doesn't move instead of being able to move instantly like freddy. Yes she doesn't have to channel it like freddy but freddy does not slow down when he channels it and also can cancel it and that can be used to your advantage as a result, such as to fake it. Her teleport audio is also much louder than the blood splash of freddys teleport making it much harder to use in chase.
You're off on a few things:
- Sadako's animation takes exactly as long as Freddy's charge time on the teleport (3 seconds). So that "lengthy animation" is the same amount of time it takes for Freddy to actually teleport.
- Also "you want to teleport to the gens" isn't quite right - you want to teleport to the survivors. A lot of the times they're at gens, but not always, and sometimes you want to teleport somewhere else if you know there's a survivor nearby you can hopefully down quickly.
- And on top of all that Freddy has a 45 second cooldown between teleports. He simply can't teleport as often on a moment's notice as Sadako (and he can't teleport at all once all the gens are done)
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843567#Comment_2843567
- To me, that's what a mindgame is. Predicting what a survivor will do, or foxing them into doing something and capitalizing. Isn't it?
- Yes, but Wraith can see people on the other side of the wall XD. What I'm referring to though is maps with a lot of grass/corn, where it can be difficult to see anything on Onryo.
- I'm not sure if that's true, numerically speaking.
- Wait till you get RPD, Lery's or Swamp. These are the three I've had with really wonky TV spawns.
- The context I've been talking about has been chases, where mindgame has a more specific meaning.
- Sadako having trouble seeing over grass isn't really a problem with stealth though. In terms of her stealthiness, i.e. how hard it is for survivors to detect her, her height is an objective advantage.
- For reference, Wraith moves at only 1.6 m/s while uncloaking and it takes him 3 seconds to uncloak (ignoring add-ons for simplicity). So during the uncloak the survivor can run away at 4 m/s, gaining 2.4 m/s distance per second for 3 seconds for a total of 7.2 meters. He then moves 6.9 m/s (lunge speed) for 1 second, gaining back 2.9 meters which leaves him still behind up to 4.3 meters. He then has to catch up at 0.6 m/s which takes him an additional 7.2 seconds. So all in all, if he runs up to a survivor and touches them (as in a bodyblock) and then starts to uncloak, if the survivor runs away they can gain an additional 8.2 total seconds in the chase before he can catch back up again. That's over 32 additional meters of distance at survivor speed, up to 1/3 of a typical map.
- Now let's run the same exercise with Sadako. Say for the sake of argument she starts Demanifested touching a survivor. (She's probably ideally start Manifesting sooner than that but we'll start her in the same spot for argument's sake.) Her Manifesting speed is 3.68 m/s and it takes her 1.5 seconds to Manifest (so she phases back in twice as fast as Wraith and moves more than twice as fast while doing it). For those 1.5 seconds the survivor gains 0.32 m/s for a total distance of only 0.48 meters. At that point she resume moving her normal 4.6 m/s and makes up that 0.48 meters in less than 1 second.
- I already played on RPD and Lery's and had no issues with the TVs in those. (In fact I think I got a 4k on both? I'm not sure.)
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843319#Comment_2843319
Watch Tru3 play her, or even Otz these days.
Basically, they try to do one of two things.
- Go into cloak and use it to move ahead of the running survivor, to bodyblock a window/pallet, decloak and hit them with the dash.
- Go into cloak, decloaking on the other side of a wall, then using it to mindgame the survivor by outpacing the drop/vault or coming from the wrong side. At worst, it's a 50/50.
On the other hand, watching Otz and Dowsey play her, going into demat in chases feels like more of a reflex than something that's having an effect. Survivors don't seem to path differently at all, they're treating her as if they are fully visible. Most hits are at switchbacks or vaults, same as any other M1 killer - the survivors aren't making unusual mistakes for the most part (and when they do, it looks like it's more due to her size causing them to underestimate the range on her lunge).
The height is both a blessing and a curse - she's harder to see, but she also can't see over a lot of things. It comes out at a wash.
Stealth...I'm not sure how. Wraith has a slowdown while emerging, but a dash after (and can bodyblock). Sadako has no slowdown, but can be pathed through and no dash (pretty even, probably leaning slightly towards Wraith).
Wraith's is more reliable even factoring in the shimmer, because it's a true undetectable (Sadako has a silly lullaby that gives her proximity away) and gives him enormous speed on demand.
Her phasing is about all she has, and it's pretty unreliable. Without addons, it's not hard for me to tell exactly where she is and what she's doing, maybe 4 times in 5. The fifth time I can mostly attribute to my own mistakes.
Her teleports are her other big selling point, but the TV spawn logic is so RNG that it can be entirely useless.
- Bodyblocking is a good technique but it isn’t a “mindgame”. Neither is ambushing someone from the other side of a wall pre-chase. (And again, I’ve watched a lot of Tru3 play Wraith, I do know what you’re referring to. It’s how I play Wraith too.)
- Shorter Height is objectively an advantage in terms of stealth. It’s not a “wash” with anything, being shorter makes it harder for people to see you. You wouldn’t say “Wraith has trouble seeing the person on the other side of the wall while he Decloaks so it’s a wash” for example.
- Wraith’s slowdown is so slow that his lunge doesn’t make up the distance if the person runs away while he Decloaks. Bodyblocking works when survivors get confused and don’t run away, but when they aren’t confused and do run Wraith is about 8 meters away from them by the time he finishes uncloaking and only catches up maybe 3 meters of that during the initial burst of speed he gets after which he needs to catch up 5 meters at 0.6 m/s. In comparison Sadako loses no distance while Manifesting and then continues catching up at 0.6 m/s after Manifested, so she stays much closer to the survivor even when they run away. (And running through her doesn’t gain distance on her, it just maybe confuses the killer momentarily like a juke would.)
- TV spawns aren’t so random that RNG is a major factor. I haven’t yet had a match where I couldn’t teleport roughly where I wanted.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843131#Comment_2843131
Elaborate?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843108#Comment_2843108
Hmm. Yeah, I'm not seeing how she is better than Wraith. Wraith has more map presence, more mindgame ability, more reliable mobility, more reliable stealth. I'm actually struggling to think of any area where she outclasses Wraith - maybe her traversal is slightly better on enormous maps, but that's going to be close due to the fact that his is less prone to RNG uselessness.
And Wraith isn't a good killer, at all.
I'm not sure I'll do a statistical analysis, but I'm watching Otz play her now and contrasting his Trapper chases while in loop, and they are very, very similar. Trapper can occasionally use/fake a trap mid chase for mindgames and she can occasionally get lucky and have RNG give her a TV to use mid chase (and have the survivor not anticipate the teleport) but broadly they are just bog-standard M1 killers.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843143#Comment_2843143
Mm. I'm not seeing it.
Maybe there's some wrinkle in her kit that nobody has discovered yet, at best making her B tier (I doubt it), but while she can occasionally pressure people far away with teleports:
- This relies on pure RNG not to put the TV facing a wall, or on a different floor.
- This relies on survivors not responding to her teleport correctly. I'm seeing more people blind me the second I come out of the TV (completely unavoidable) or just leg it to a safe loop. The speed boost you get is occasionally enough to get a single hit, but nowhere near as reliably as say, Wraith can do this.
I don’t see how Wraith has more mindgamability in a chase. He’s literally completely visible while Decloaked. It’s not even clear he’s harder to spot coming up on people before a chase starts because he’s taller than Sadako and still visible. I think her stealth is actually better.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843033#Comment_2843033
In chase? It's not far off. Watching a few Dowsey games now, unless there's a TV in a very good location he's basically just playing an M1 killer. His manifest/demanifest stuff feels more like a reflex - it doesn't really seem to do much in chase unless he's using specific addons.
I think the Invisibility in chase effect is subtle, it would be hard to distinguish at a glance when a survivor misplayed because they legitimately couldn’t see which say she went versus simply wasn’t paying attention. To really tell you’d probably want to do a more statistical look at his chases with Sadako versus with, say, Trapper and see how often the mind games work on both to tell the boost she gets from it versus having no ability.
P.S. personally I think Sadako is better than Wraith but not by a huge margin, so we’re not probably all that far apart in where we’d rank them both. My guess is Wraith is 2 out of 5 stars as a killer, and Sadako is 2 1/2 to 3 stars.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842894#Comment_2842894
"Worst case assumptions"
I just played 8 games in a row and not one person ran any kind of BP offering of any kind.
Well I played six games last night and saw them in two of them. Random is random.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842972#Comment_2842972
Hmm. No, I disagree.
Firstly, 'x pro player can succeed with x killer' isn't really proof of that killer being fine. Otz did 50 wins on pre-rework Clown and Trapper without addons. I mentioned Tru3 because he's a good demonstration of Wraith's toolkit being used as an antiloop.
Secondly, let me describe the basic counterplay to both killers, as I think that illustrates my point.
- Wraith: he stealths in, you notice him once he's in vision radius if you're paying attention. He zips to you, bodyblocks you, decloaks and hits you. This first hit is almost impossible to avoid if he's not silly. Then you run to the closest safe loop and it becomes a back and forth - you trying to stay ahead, him trying to get into a position where he can bodyblock you again or decloak on a switchback to hit you. Or, if there is no CoH in play, he gets that first hit then zips off to pressure elsewhere.
- Onryo: you hear her coming either via the lullaby or out of a TV. You move to safety or hide in grass (her tiny size makes it incredibly difficult to spot survivors hidden in grass, a bit like pre-rework Blight). She finds you, demanifests and you run directly through her before she can hit you. She chases, gets a hit and you run to the loop. Now she's a standard M1 killer at a loop, but without any tools to do a reliable mindgame or shorten the distance.
I'm watching Dowsey now. The guy is good, but all he's doing is outplaying people with an M1 killer. He'd be playing very similarly on Trapper for instance.
Trapper doesn’t teleport and get survivors confused with invisibility, so it’s more than just that.
Also exactly how is “running directly through Sadako” preventing her from being close enough to hit you?
Finally I never said she’s “good because pro player is good with her”, I said she’s overall better than Wraith in a chase because of how her Demanifesting works compared to his Decloaking and said that Dowsey seems to be someone who is playing her correctly as an example.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842910#Comment_2842910
- I'm not sure if I agree with that. They both feel about on par. She can teleport more often, but is entirely reliant on TV spawn logic, which can put them into completely useless places - a floor above the gen, for example, or in a corner of the map facing a wall.
- Freddy also has an anti-loop tool (which she doesn't).
- Wraith's decloak is entirely superior. You can bodyblock (the key to playing Wraith) while Sadako can just be run through. His stealth is reliable, hers is...pointless. He gets a gap closer coming out of stealth which offsets the pause (and can actually be used strategically). Basically: Wraith is almost guaranteed the first hit if he's smart, then has to chase. Sadako has to chase from word one.
- TVs being in bad places is definitely a corner case, as a rule they’re in useful spots.
- I already said Freddy is better at loops. We’re talking about his teleport though versus hers, and hers is better.
- Wraith’s extra speed coming out of stealth does not “offset” the pause if the survivor runs away from Wraith during the Decloak. If the survivor moves away from him then they gain much more distance than the extra speed offsets. Bodyblocking helps in that it can confuse the survivor but if the survivor is paying attention they can gain distance almost 100% of the time. And survivors can see Wraith on approach, he’s not literally invisible, so he has to rely on cover like Sadako to keep from being seen assuming survivors are paying attention to their surroundings.
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@AhoyWolf said:
The animations are amazing! Even the Survivors seem to be more expressive when being grabbed by her.
But the best thing is her sound design, I love how it sounds!
Good music too. 👍
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842941#Comment_2842941
Not quite - Wraith's anti-loop isn't brilliant either. Which is why he's low B/high C tier. But he can at least close with stealth, get the first hit, chase, restealth, bodyblock Tru3 style then decloak and attack.
Sadako can also close with stealth and get the first hit at least as well as Wraith. In fact she can do it a bit easier because she can continue moving at survivor speed on the approach versus having to stop in place to Manifest.
And yes, bodyblocking before Decloaking is the best way to play Wraith. It doesn’t change the fact though that, even if Wraith is literally touching the survivor when he starts to Decloak, the survivor can gain a ton of distance from him by running the opposite direction. Sure, if the survivor runs the wrong direction after the bodyblock they gain less distance, but if they are paying attention and go the right way the Wraith is a good 8 meters away by the time the Decloak finishes and even with his extra speed can’t make that up.
In comparison, Sadako can run up to a survivor in a chase while Demanifested and Manifest when she is close without losing any perceptible distance. It doesn’t matter what direction the survivor is running, she’s always moving about their speed while Manifesting so she can keep up. She also maintains her on-and-off invisibility and has a lower cross section than Wraith, so if she is Manifesting around a corner of a loop for example the survivor won’t necessarily know which way she is choosing to run around the loop.
Believe me, I know exactly how Tru3 plays Wraith and I know what you mean. Sadako isn’t Wraith and her Demanifest is actually smoother than Decloaking in a chase. If you want to see someone putting on a clinic with her, watch Dowsey playing her in chases.
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@Adjatha said:
The stated goal is "2 survivors escape every game."
That means that the Devs want all 5 gens to be finished EVERY SINGLE GAME.
If you have to ask "should generators just be popping constantly?" then just remember this: The Devs do not want a game of back-and-forth any more. They don't believe getting over 6 hooks makes for a good game experience. They WANT you to tunnel one survivor out of the game, then capture a second on in EGC and just camp them while the other two leave.
The current state of the game is what they've built it to be and they're not willing to admit that they've made (and keep making) terrible decisions that erode the fun the game used to have.
Not quite, the stated goal is an average of 2 per game, presumably with median results of 1-3 kills per game. They have never once said they want “2 escapes every game”, they just want 2 to be the staistical average and 0 and 4 kills to be the exceptions and not the rule.
But yes, having 1-3 kills per game most games does mean the gens should be finished most of the time assuming both sides play equally well.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842887#Comment_2842887
Watch Tru3 play Wraith.
I stopped watching Tru3 a while ago, he just complains all the time about everything. But I have seen him play Wraith and nothing about how he plays Wraith invalidates anything I said above.
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I don’t have a problem with people holding W to run from me any more than I have a problem with people trying to use safe loops or chain tiles together. Whatever, they’re just trying not to get hit for as long as possible, nothing wrong with that.
Literal Facecamping where a killer just stands around doing nothing while a survivor is hooked next to them can be problematic if the game is somehow making players feel encouraged to do it because it’s really boring for everybody involved. The killer is doing absolutely nothing but standing around, the hooked person is just hanging there, and the other survivors if they’re smart are ignoring the face camper and just sitting on gens for a little less than two minutes to finish them before one of them does a hook trade. That’s why the devs have explicitly talked about how they have experimented internally with ways to reduce occurrences of actual face camping in order to further encourage killers to be proactive in looking for other survivors after a hook. (And note that I don’t think it’s good strategy, but people are often irrational and if face camping -feels- like something that is effective to an average player then it is a problem even if that feeling is wrong.)
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@SkeletalElite said:
her problem is her kit is an amalgmation of concepts other killers do better. TV teleport is freddy teleport but worse. Condemn is like an amalgmation of being asleep, being tormented, and having an RBT but its worse because you don't waste anywhere near as much time as pigs RBTs, dont passively fall asleep like freddy, and don't get to avoid hook perks like BT/DS with pyramid head.
Her ability to "demanifest" is just wraiths power but with no speed and poor invisibilty and her "decloak" isntead of giving you something useful like wraiths speed boost gives you spirits passive phasing, a mechanic of hers which is largely ignored because who cares about it.
The ONE thing she does that is even close to unique is move through survivors who are bodyblocking, although meyers is technically capable of doing that too since you lose collision while stalking and can quickly tap your stalk ability while someone is body blocking to go through them.
- I think her teleport is actually significantly better than Freddy’s. Unlike Freddy she can teleport over and over until she finds a chase if she wants, and she also gets a significant speed boost coming out of the teleport. (Freddy gets snares to make up for his lack of speed in loops, but that’s nothing to do with his teleport.) Also Freddy can only teleport to gens that aren’t finished, so by the end of the match his options are limited and he notably can’t teleport near the gates once the gens are done. Sadako’s TVs last the whole match, so if she needs to teleport somewhere near a completed gen she can still do it.
- Her Demanifest is also significantly better than Wraith’s Decloak because, unlike Wraith, she still moves at about survivor speed while Demanifesting. Wraith slows to a miserably slow speed while Decloaking, enough so that even with the extra speed he gets afterward the survivor will still get a huge amount of distance from him by the time it’s finished. The only way he gets hits out of a Decloak is by trying to bodyblock or Decloak from hiding and catch survivors offguard so they get confused about which way to run away. Sadako can pretty much Manifest and Demanifest midchase with little problem, and even gets a bit of an edge by Manifesting midchase since she is still intermittently invisible during it.
I’m not trying to claim she’s “great”, but she definitely feels like she’s better than her counterparts in those respects.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842610#Comment_2842610
This ^
I've gotten 3 Condemned moris out of the 4 times someone has hit max stacks. Once they're fully Condemned if they aren't literally at the TV when you find them, which is actually fairly easy if you know where the TVs are and/or have the addon that shows the location of turned off ones, they're very easy to kill.
The issues that I have with her kit come from 2 places though:
-Enduring feels almost mandatory on her, because you are eating pallets for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
-Condemned doesn't build quick enough.
Combine both of these with COH continuing to exist and you have a killer that I feel is fun to play as and again, is excellently designed and I am very happy with existing, however needs just a few more pushes to get her into strong territory without making her too strong.
She's definitely one of the higher skill cap killers, though nowhere near Blight or Nurse level, maybe comparable to Spirit but weaker, and I hope we get some more buffs in an upcoming midchapter like we did Trickster, with the caveat that unlike Trickster she's actually well designed.
I will say it feels a bit anticlimactic that the survivor isn’t Exposed when they’re fully Condemned. It kind of seems like it should at least work like Rancor where they’re instant downable and killable.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2836377#Comment_2836377
None of what you just said changes the fact it defeats the purpose of earning 30K if it costs you 30K to clear a bloodweb to get the add ons to do it in the first place.
And no, I actually find it quite rare for someone on the team to run a teamwide bloodpoint offering. Maybe one game out of ten, if that.
- You don’t need to clear an entire 30k bloodweb to get two add-ons. You get more than two add-ons per bloodweb so clearing a web gives you more than one game’s worth of them
- I see at least one bloody streamer about every night or two. On top of me sometimes having that or the yellow add-on that does the same thing for my personal score.
Look, I explained in great detail why your worst case assumptions are wrong in practice and that I do, in fact, complete a bloodweb every match and have done so for quite a long time. Stop trying to tell me it’s impossible for me to play this way when I’ve been doing it for years.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842611#Comment_2842611
I actually played a few Wraith games to contrast the two, and I'd put her a position or two below Wraith.
Wraith has better anti-loop, more reliable stealth and much better overall mobility.
How is Wraith’s anti-loop better than hers? He literally can’t Decloak midchase without giving up so much distance to the survivor that they get away.
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Balance question aside, I think Deathslinger isn’t as fun to play now because his turning speed feels super slow while aiming. He’s the only ranged killer that can’t turn at normal speed while holding up his weapon. It’s like walking through molasses. If they let him at least swivel at normal speed while he has his rifle up I’d like him better.
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The devs originally planned to do something like that I think but I guess they scrapped it? Maybe they were worried about the system getting abused somehow, who knows? 🤷♂️
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I haven't seen Otz talk about it today but on his most recent tier list he has Wraith as C tier so it's not surprising if he rates Sadako as B or C tier. She's sort of like a somewhat improved Wraith in chases.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842577#Comment_2842577
Also remember healthy survivors with tapes are effectively immune to being moried as interacting with TVs takes so little time that you should never get hit twice before you use the right TV.
So survivors as it currently stands can just ignore the mechanic entirely until max stacks then just rush past the killer to remove it.
Actually I killed someone tonight who had their tape and was running for the TV to try and get rid of the stacks. Keep in mind you get the killer instinct where they are and they are running to what might be the farthest TV on the map from them. It actually wasn't that hard to down them before they could use the TV. (The hard part is hoping they're stupid enough to actually get to seven stacks in the first place.)
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842537#Comment_2842537
It's because the devs have been explicitly listing what kind of skill checks perk like Huntress Lullaby and Unnerving Presence effect and skill checks from perks do not count as healing or gen skill checks. Which is kinda sad because things like the Freddy addons that increase penalties from failed skill checks do not work with oppression or overcharge which can usually catch survivors off guard once in a match so it removes minor synergy that could be fun to play around with.
That said I do not know if Doctor is updated to only work on default skill checks like every other perk. But I doubt it does.
That's not correct that Unnerving Presence doesn't affect checks from perks, it definitely reduces the size of the Overcharge check. It doesn't affect checks that aren't part of healing or repair actions though (e.g. Decisive Strike).
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2841648#Comment_2841648
I'm also not convinced regarding the effectiveness of her stealth. Survivors seem to know exactly where I am at all times even though I'm demanifested.
Well she's literally invisible outside of 24 meters while Demanifested, and even within that range she has no red stain, no terror radius, is invisible half the time and is a short killer with a smaller than usual cross section. So she's about as stealthy as you can get in a killer other than a stationary Wraith or Insidious using killer. (Even Wraith can be seen as a shimmer moving around and is taller than her so in some ways he can possibly be easier to spot depending on the situation.
Of course there are a fair number of survivors who use Spine Chill, so you need to be mindful of trying not to look directly at people you're approaching when possible. And if they're on comms and someone is keeping an eye on you that can work against you too, although because of her teleport and invisibility beyond 24 meters she might be a bit less vulnerable to people on comms than some of the other stealth killers.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2841641#Comment_2841641
Is that true? If I recall (and I may be mistaken) new killers are pegged directly below the MMR of your 'best' killer.
Could be, I don’t know the details. 🤷♂️
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I played her last night four or five matches. I had a good time, she actually seems to be one of the better feeling stealth killers! 🙂
A funny thing that threw me off sometimes was her lack of collision combined with stealth meant survivors occasionally go right through her when you run up to them before you Manifest, either by accident because they didn’t see you or because they did a spin and just went right past you.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
Wouldn't sadako be low MMR. If killers actually have seperate mmr
I think when you get a new killer it starts them at the average of your other killer MMRs or something like that versus assuming you are a brand new player.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2840643#Comment_2840643
Why did you not just face a wall?
What does facing a wall have to do with the game crashing at the exits?
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@BenZ0 said:
Simple solution: Unranked mode
But ye well it is what it is sadly, a friend of mine got dbd steam shared from me recently, she will also start playing a few days and I already feel sad for her, I already obviously let her know about the issues with this game but she still wants to give it a try.
Well lets see, I will give her the best support I can give
How would unranked mode solve when the matchmaking algorithm ignores the MMRs and puts them against players regardless of rating on certain situations? You’d just be seeing wild west matches all the time instead of only some of the time.
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Like everybody else said just ignore people complaining about how you played 99% of it is just sore losing. Same applies if you play survivor, you see killers complaining all the time about “gen rushing” and using good perks, it’s just sour grapes.
That said, for reference
- “Tunneling” has no actual consensus definition. The best I can figure is tunneling is either downing someone multiple times in a row or chasing someone specifically to down that person while intentionally ignoring other survivors. Either way the worst you can say about it is sometimes not breaking away from a survivor and chasing them exclusively is bad strategy. While you spend two minutes trying to down a survivor looping you in a remote part of the map all the other survivors are free to finish the gens. Knowing when to break off a chase and apply pressure on survivors who are actively working the gens and who you might have an easier time catching is important.
- “Camping” is really just zone defense. You’re defending a spot versus doing one on one chases. Zone defense can be a good tactic sometimes, but too much of it is a bad idea. If you stand in front of a hook for two minutes waiting for someone to die that pretty much lets the other survivors spend all that time finishing the gens. It’s typically better to proactively go and chase another survivor off a gen while you have someone on a hook, that way you have one on a hook, one going for a rescue, one being chased and only one survivor working on a gen at a time. And once you get your first kill the math is even more in your favor to aggressively chase someone else because it squeezes them into deciding whether to let that hooked survivor die and try and continue on a gen or abandon the gen and get the rescue. Of course if someone is close to dying on hook or advancing a stage then hanging around a few seconds to make sure they are rescued at the last second can be worth it, so zone defense has its uses. Just don’t overdo it or you’ll end up spending your time inefficiently.
- There are definitely some perks on both sides that are more popular and effective than others (i.e. meta). Obviously there’s nothing wrong with using them, they’re in the game because the devs want people to use them. But it’s good to understand why, for example, Dead Hard is so popular so you know how to play around it as a killer. Also, while the forums are filled with tons of posts complaining about how various perks are “overpowered”, the biggest factor in losing a match is you making mistakes. If you make mistakes and the opponents don’t you’ll almost certainly lose regardless of what perks you run, and vice versa if you outplay your opponents you’ll almost certainly win with any loadout. The perk balance questions mainly just impact games at higher level of skill where all the players are playing equally well and making few errors, that’s when these loadouts and perks and add-ons become relatively more significant. But as a brand new player I can almost 100% guarantee that if you lose a match you would have lost it regardless of what you or your opponents had in their loadouts.
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Burger King already has a stealth game called Sneak King so he’s half way there! 😄
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@Veinslay said:
Night of a new chapter release and my killer queues are instant. I remember them taking forever when Nemesis came out
My killer queues were definitely a bit longer today than usual.