bobateo
bobateo
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I know the solution I will be told is "turn off your messages." And then I ask you, why do I have to turn my messages off to not be harassed for playing a role in a game?
Because it is an option available to you. You don't have to do it, but it is a solid way to prevent receiving those kinds of messages. It's up to each person to decide whether or not the angry/mean posts they receive are troublesome enough to turn off messages or not. I get them, but it's fairly infrequent and on the whole don't bother me enough to turn off chat/etc.
can we maybe admit that us, we, the community are the problem?
I think this is a bit of false equivalence here. Just because some people act poorly towards someone else =/= it's fine to leave in elements of the game that cause issues. Is BHVR ultimately responsible for the people's behavior? No, that's on the individuals. They are responsible for their behavior. Should BHVR still remove elements of gameplay that allow players to grief other people? More than likely, yes.
As for the community part..... The answer is not really. There is no grand DBD community except in the loosest sense of "we all, at least sometime, play DBD". I doubt that majority of players engage with DBD social media. They just play the game and maybe say something (nice or otherwise) in end game chat. We're largely thrown into matches with random people that we may never see again in any other match, much less on the wider internet.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428521#Comment_3428521
nothing is stopping survivors from bringing in gen rushing perks or items with good loadouts (it used to be a bp thing but bp is so plentiful right now there is no reason not to bring good items to the trial).
That's maybe a fraction of all that I wrote and doesn't address the fact at all that soloQ survivors cannot achieve the communication necessary to coordinate the effort. Not to mention that 'just bring perks/items/addons' - whether its for Killer or Survivor - isn't a great answer to a glaring balance issue.
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Not unless you want to provide soloq with the communication methods to put them on par with a 4 man SWF and advocate for survivors in general to come to every match with gen speed load outs (perks and toolboxes) with the rest of their perks well synergized and defined roles for each teammate. If that's what people want, sure, fine. But boy do I feel bad for any Killer player that isn't a semi-competent 3-genning SM. (Nurse and/or Blight might be okay here.)
The issues with SM's power and the old 'wisdom' of "just do gens" have already been discussed at length. It took an A+ comp team multiple matches to come up with a workable strategy to break the stalemate and not have a 30+ minute game.
Sorry, but I have no interest in becoming a comp level player just for the hope of having a chance to beat SM using this strategy.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411959#Comment_3411959
You’re able to do it because Blight is pretty strong and most survivors are average or below players. Try it with… like, Trickster or Hillbilly. You might not have the same degree of luck.
If they're just starting off as Killer, it will be exactly the same. I played survivor near exclusively for a long time and when I switched to playing Killer (Trapper) sometimes, well the experience is miles different at first. As a solo Q, starting survivor player, games were largely: lose, lose s'more, lose REAL bad, and why did I buy this game again? level of lose. Then you start to develop some game sense, learn a couple of tiles that you can loop with some success and while (at least IME) your escape rate doesn't change that much, you can still feel like you're playing decently.
Compare that to when I started first started playing Trapper and it was completely the opposite. I could roll into a match and not bother with traps at all and walk out with 4K before the last gen got done. More often than not it was before multiple gens got done. I was winning so easily that I started letting the last survivor, sometimes 2, escape because I felt bad. Getting a 0K or 1K was incredibly rare.
Heck I had a Legion daily at one point - a Killer that I've never played - and walked into a match with 1 yellow perk and no addons and still managed a 4K.
Of course, the problem there is obvious. I had little idea how to use Trapper's traps effectively and eventually ran into survs who steamrolled right over me. I couldn't get a 1K to save my life for a bit. The games were so drastically different that I almost couldn't believe it. Which is what I suspect will happen in this case, though it might take a bit longer because Blight is a stronger Killer.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3408149#Comment_3408149
You realize Overcharge literally makes the gen regress at slower speed when it starts? At start, it regresses at 85% speed. Combined with CoB, the gen will be regressing at 105% speed, so only 5% faster, which is completely negligible.
Not when she can force a surv off for 10 seconds (Drone Active timer before it becomes hackable). Another 3+ seconds to hack the drone. That is now 13+ seconds of Overbrine and SM is probably headed right back to the gen upon seeing the drone hacked. She kicks it again, drops another drone and now...
Drone can't be hacked and while you can go for the gen tap to stop regression, once again, she knows immediately and can (and most often will return). I could run through more scenarios, but they all end the same way - the regression is not negligible when you have a killer that can force survivors off gens for 13+ seconds with relative ease.
The problem isn't overcharge. The problem isn't COB. The problem is a Killer power that gives higher than normal value with these two perks.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3407902#Comment_3407902
It can't be applied in a short window of time because Overcharge takes 30 seconds to build up. 55% extra regression is nothing. It would stil take 232 seconds to fully regress a gen.
Yes, it can be reapplied in a short window of time. It has no cool down, iirc. Just because the generator isn't at max regression for the full time doesn't mean that no regression happens.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3407545#Comment_3407545
Overcharge and CoB add 55% extra regression speed in the best case scenario where Overcharge reaches 30 seconds. That's barely anything.
If it can only happen once, sure, but when it can be consistently be reapplied in a short window of time and with the ability to deny progression consistently, then it's significant.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
How do you still get 3 gen when CoB and Overcharge are nerfed?
Even with the nerf, SM gets more value out of the combo because of the delay her drones in active mode can cause in stopping gen regression. If a surv enters the drone area to stop the regression, SM knows and can come back. If they don't, then they lose more progress. It's essentially a lose/lose if SM prioritizes gen regression over chase. She can still add a third regression perk into the mix and while she might not get as much value out of them, getting any value compounds what she can already get from COB and Overcharge.
Add in extended heals from Sloppy and a lot of gen progress can be lost repeatedly.
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I'm hoping the Overbrine nerfs temper that playstyle on SM enough to be bearable, but I'm not particularly looking forward to it.
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It's been pretty reliable for me. I'd say more than half the time, the surv uses DH when I do that.
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His base trap count should probably be 3 (I go back and forth on this). From what I've played of him, 3 traps allows some decent trap placement early on, but not enough to, for example, completely lock down a 3 gen in under 2 minutes. But taking the cured leather bag and eating up an addon slot with it isn't great. He's got better addons. The rest of the traps need to spawn more center of map. Though, I do like the traps in his bag 'recharge' instead of them spawning on the map at all. I think one definite weakness of Trapper is the amount of counter play that knowing it's Trapper early on already gives in comparison to other Killers who also have 'tells'.
Those two things - base start with more traps & less time gaining traps would be solid improvements for his early game where he's the weakest. I find that getting 2-3 traps down and having at least one in hand within 2-3 minutes can be pretty critical to having a match where you have a chance vs. waving as the survs run out the door.
If those are done, I'd be content to wait and see how they affect matches overall, but here are some things either in addition or as alternatives.
- Trap coloring on brighter maps. Right now there is no option to deal with this. Tar bottle doesn't help at all on bright maps.
- Tar bottle probably needs a rework in general. On dark maps, the base color isn't an issue at all. On maps where the base color is an issue, tar bottle doesn't help.
- Base temp speed boost either after setting a trap OR when a surv is caught in a trap.
- Padded Jaws - needs a complete rework. Barring that, it needs to hold a surv for longer as part of the addon or it needs to give a heck of a lot more BP. And by 'alot', I'm thinking 1K lol.
- Do away with him getting caught in his own traps. He's like 6'10". I'm confident he can step over them. I just generally think it's silly that he can get caught in his own traps and he really doesn't need any more variables when considering where and when to place traps. This would be a boost to his anti-loop, but I don't think it'd be huge. Could be wrong here tho.
- Perhaps make the base time to disarm a trap longer. I think it's currently too easy for one surv to just follow a bit behind and pop traps. On the one hand, yes they're not on gens. On the other, other hand, disarm time is - base - only 1 second more than setting speed and I think that's too generous on the surv side overall.
Other addon things:
Right now Trapper feels very addon dependent to have him keep pace with survs. I don't think I play any games with him anymore without having at least 1 purple or 1 iri.
- Tension Spring - might be my least favorite of the purple addons. I'd almost rather it be like Iridescent stone, but with a longer timer. Oily Coil, Honing Stone and Trapper Sack (even with the downside of not being able to pick up traps) are just way superior to tension spring, in my experience.
- I think his Iri addons are fine. Both are solid choices. Might need adjusting if he gets other improvements tho.
- His green addons are a mixed bag for me, but if he has some base changes to, for example, trap disarm speed, they might overall be more solid. Except Tar Bottle - it's so situational on when it might give benefit, I feel like it should be a yellow or brown.
- His other addons are okay, but if not pared with a purple or iri, they general feel too weak IMO. If no changes to his base are made, then at the very least, I think his addons need a serious overhaul.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396875#Comment_3396875
Nah we'll be getting some cosplay for Felix and Vittorio as well
Felix with a Wesker skin in a match against Wesker and other 3 survs can't figure out who is chasing who?
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All of the re4 remake outfits will come to DBD, but only as cosplay costumes for Feng. 😁
On a more serious note. I wouldn't mind a sprucing up of Leon and Wesker but, I don't think it will happen.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385010#Comment_3385010
But with the healing timing increased, it mitigates the skillcheck problem.
The problems with autodidact are that healing is naturally so FAST that you don't get skillchecks reliably. But in this state, healing time is much lower, giving you time to actually get to those skillchecks. I'd guess that only the first heal will be slow, and subsequent heals will get you your last couple of stacks making healing much much faster for the rest of the game.
I don't think the increased healing time is going to make a difference that is large enough to cover the many issues autod. fundamentally has. It will have some impact, true, but not enough to make up for the the flaws the perk has in practice. But even if the increased time does push it into legit 'useful' territory, I'm still not sure that's a good thing. Sure, the perk would now have useful application and is (potentially) more reliable than it is now, but only because healing in general is now so bad.
Right now it sounds more like "We've pretty drastically throttled the range your wifi will work to 3ft from the router, but you can buy this amplifier to get you back to sorta-kinda-not-really-and-may-not-always-work normal". It might be better than being confined to 3ft away, but it's still not good.
But if the healing changes go through as is, I'll definitely try it out.
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@Reinami said:
You forgot about perks like inner healing, autodidact (which is actually going to be good now), second wind, and other ways to heal yourself that aren't just "healing" yourself.
I doubt it will and no one should hope that autodidact enters high usage. Well Killers might (joking, sort of). I love the theory of the perk, but it's not good in practice and it's the kind of perk that will get worse exponentially if more than one surv runs it. Healing skill checks are already incredibly unreliable to the point where you can go through multiple heals and not get a single stack of auto and without getting at least four stacks, you've definitely wasted a perk slot or worse, you're now a detriment to your team in endgame because if you get those dreaded first 2 stacks when you need healing rate to be at its fastest, you've hurt the team.
If, as impractical as autodidact is, it becomes a highly used perk because even with its glaring and detrimental flaws, it's now viewed as mostly good, that's an indication that healing 'balance' is gone horribly awry.
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@Pulsar said:
It's kind of a terrible change.
It encourages tunneling and camping AND DH users will fight over unhooks.
It should be take a protection hit. Thematically consistent with David too
-"AND DH users will fight over unhooks."- This was something I was thinking as well and haven't quite landed on where I think it will all pan out. The healing changes are likely going to tilt survs to bring more gen rush which will make them more reliant on exhaustion perks due to being injured. Dead Hard is the appealing exhaustion perk to take if you plan to stay injured. So, will less people run DH, even though it's more appealing, because fighting for unhooks is ... not going to go well? Or will DH usage stay the same with 2 ish people trailing every trace/racing to every hook in order to get DH before someone else? Either way, I'm glad RE4 has come out and maybe I can skip this chapter of balancing....
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I can't say for sure, but I do have one pretty memorable game that probably counts. I was having a BAD game on Badham and it was coming close to being a total blowout. But I managed to rally back a little before and right after the last gen popped with a couple of well placed traps. We had a pretty intense back and forth where I could have probably gotten a 2K, but since the game had spun so dramatically for me and was elating for it, I carried the two I had downed to the exit gate. Their teammates got them back up and I expected them all to leave.
Instead, they came out and we all spun around until the timer hit zero. The end game chat was pretty nice and two them specifically mentioned how much fun they had with the tension at the end.
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Hard Agree.
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One person taking an action does not obligate another to take an action to fix the potential issue that the previous action may have caused.
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Been having the same issue. Even when I can see that I hit the skill check in the window, it's still failing often. I managed to get 2 of 4 before rage quitting that challenge.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3373015#Comment_3373015
Did...you misread what I said?
Some of the best players in the world couldn't break the 3-gen lock. How in the ######### is the average player supposed to do anything about that?
Play DBD eight hours a day, every day. Train hard like your going for an Olympic gold. Then hope you get 3 equally cracked teammates loaded down with perks and toolboxes, RNG doesn't screw you over too much and the killer a smidge worse than you are. You might have lost your job, your S.O. might have left you and taken everything down to the new puppy and your family is ready to stage an intervention.
But hey, you cracked that 3-gen.
/s
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3372731#Comment_3372731
I never said 3 genning wasn't a thing, as you're implying. What I did say was that it didn't drag games to ridiculous times like people say and that it isn't even remotely unwinnable. That's what I actually said.
With Eruption basically gone now a 3 gen is very manageable for good survivors in solo queue.
Alright, I'll be more specific. My fault for not doing so. All of those matches lasted over 20 minutes. With the longest being one against SM pushed 35 and the only reason it didn't go any longer was because 2 of the survs gave up. This is not my first experience with these long matches where the Killer solely focuses on 3-genning. I was running things that people imply will thwart this strategy. They do not. I play almost exclusively solo Q surv. It is not manageable.
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@Blueberry said:
Yeah I’m not sure where these mythical unbreakable 3 gen games or 3 gen games that last an hour are as I never see them. I play way more than the average person and solo queue at that and these games are nearly non existent. I can’t even remember the last game I lost because of a 3 gen.
I think people lost a lot of matches that have a 3 gen because they or their team are playing bad and instead of taking accountability for skill issues or bad choices it’s easier to just blame a 3 gen or gen kick perks as why they lost.
This mythical 3 gen issue is honestly a boogieman that doesn’t realistically exist. It can happen here and there, not saying ever, but rare enough that it really isn’t a problem.
If it's mythical, then I must have a knack for finding unicorns and fully expect a rainbow with a pot of gold at the end any day now. I've played about 10 matches as surv today and 4 were Killers who 3-genned from the start. 2 SMs, 1 Hag, and 1 Knight. It was astoundingly obvious because I was running Deja Vu and every time I went to the 3 -gen, lo and behold, I found the Killer too.
Please don't say this is 'mythical'. It definitely isn't.
I don't think the general strategy needs to be nuked from orbit. Heck, I play Trapper. But individual Killer ability to hold a 3-gen definitely needs to be looked at. The ease with which some builds can completely stall out a match needs be looked at.
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To piggyback back a bit off of EvilSerje on survivor:
- There are some really good videos on basic looping. They'll give you some basics to practice such as 'hugging' loops to gain max rotations before a pallet drop, tile running, and how to fast vault even tricky windows/angles. The biggest skill to focus on at first, IMO, is camera control.
- Yes, gens are hugely important to get done, but taking a few seconds at the start to suss out the Killer and see if they are headed in your direction (lethal pursurer is a pretty popular perk) is something that I've found very useful in SoloQ. Denying a quick first chase is often better than a few seconds of gen time that's likely to get kicked back to nothing. You can also then sneak around to an area that the Killer has already patrolled and snag a gen that might be more important to get done.
- In the first few seconds of the game, take a moment to take stock of where you're at on the map and what's around you - loops, LOS blockers,windows, and more. Do the same when you go to get on a gen so you can have an idea of where you want to go depending on what direction the Killer comes from.
- As far as endgame saves, if you just want to practice, then shrug off that you might die. Consider it a victory if you get the other person out. However, definitely pick your battles if you're trying to practice successfully getting yourself and the other surv out. (ex: don't go for an unhook in the middle of the map when the doors haven't been touched and you know the Killer has NOED. I have seen this happen while hanging on said hook. 😥) If you fail, that's okay, just think about what happened and what you can do better next time. You might even get the bonus of a Killer who rewards not leaving the other person with a Hatch or door. It's rare, but it happens.
.......Unless I have an escape challenge. If I have one of those, I'm yeeting myself out that door as soon as I can.
- Finally, head on a swivel. This is part of camera control, but it truly surprises me how many survivors never look around when they are sitting on a gen or when they are running from one objective to the next, a Blight smacks them from seemingly out of nowhere. But had they been looking around, they might have seen him and been able to react.
There's more when it comes to perks, individual Killers, etc, but the above, I think, can apply to any map or Killer. If you're playing SoloQ, well, it's a crap shot. That's just SoloQ.
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A lot of your suggestions are still VERY SWF oriented. You say 'just take these perks', but it is not that simple. You need multiple people running multiple gen perks. Just bringing one isn't going to cut it. One person alone isn't going to be enough. At the very least, the team needs a back up. Solo cannot reliably coordinate this, much less the rest of what you describe. And without the right loadouts, the rest is entirely moot. The same issue exists with 'just bring a toolbox'. If the stars manage to align and you have at least 2 people running the right builds and bringing the strongest toolbox, it still may not be enough against a Killer running high regression and relentlessly patrols gens.
The above doesn't even touch the controversy surrounding 'gen rush'. Imagine a player who isn't treating 3-gens like their favorite children getting hit - by solos no less - who come into the match armed to teeth to push gens as fast as possible.
Lastly, I don't think any base strategy - Killer or Survivor - should require the other team to bring multiple perks, items, and/or add-ons to have either a shot of winning, or at the very least, not having a 30+ minute back and forth. DBD simply isn't a deep enough game to support those kinds of matches being entertaining in the long term.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
still think clown is the worst offender in the game for ear drilling chase music
Was about to say the same. There are others I don't like, but aren't teeth grating. Clown's chase music tho.... It just assaults my ears to the point where I groan anytime I see it's clown match and seriously consider throwing chases that last more than 1 pallet. Either that music loop needs to be lengthened significantly or a different segment needs to loop once he gets within a certain distance.
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While she doesn't have a ranged attack, I'm not so sure that SM doesn't have anti-loop. She can deploy a drone that can cover an entire loop. The window and pallets are still usable by survs, but using them comes at the cost of potentially getting exposed and more. The drones are quick to deploy and retrieve. To be clear, I'm not saying her anti-loop is the best, but it's not non-existant either and can support her (already incredibly strong) 3-gening. As other people have mentioned, she isn't really a trap killer. So, while I agree that SM is pretty unique even among the class of territorial Killers and I sincerely hope there can be changes that make her a more viable Killer outside of 3-genning and gimmick slug builds, I'm not sure she meets the criteria you've laid out for 'getting what 'we' asked for'.
Now, the 'don't complain so soon' part....
Pardon the paraphrasing, I do understand what you mean and don't entirely disagree. But I don't think that is the issue with this particular Killer.
Let's look at the requirements for a 3 -gen strat vs Knight who previously held the crown for 3-genning: set up, area coverage, ability of Killer to patrol, and base regression capabilities.
Set up: Knight really requires no set up beyond maybe placing the first guard at the first gen while Knight goes to the others. SM requires a tad more, but really, not much and she can place all 3 drones (or just 2 in many cases) before the first goes into scan mode. Compare this to Trapper or Hag where their traps can be disabled with little to no risk from the moment they are placed (I'm talking base line, no add ons) and may often require multiple traps for 1 gen/area. However, Knight's first guard will eventually vanish on its own while the drone will remain until a surv takes it down or SM does, providing her unlimited and near completely reliable detection on all gens (she can cover more than 3. 3 is just bare minimum).
Area Coverage: Quite simply there is no 'territorial Killer' who can come close to touching SM here. 1 drone can cover multiple gens, the entire loop a gen is in, and/or multiple floors. Knight, on the other hand is 1 guard, 1 gen in the vast majority of cases. Only the most generous 3 gens where 2 of the 3 are practically on top of each other, can he have 1 guard cover 2.
This is, to note, the set up I hate facing with a 3-genning Knight the most. However, it still has more reasonable counters it to than SM. 1 surv can take the guard for a jog, locking up the Knight's power for a bit, surv 2 can sit on that gen for whatever time allowed before the Knight comes over while surv 3 can jump up on the gen Knight just left. Doing this is still a slog, don't get me wrong. Progress is incremental, requires at least 3 survs and all of them playing fairly competently, but the level of coordination isn't insurmountable for solo Q though I wouldn't consider it 'likely' either.
Compare this to SM - the other 2 gens are still protected. 3rd Surv can decide to ignore the drone and go for straight gen time. Except SM can see that they are there. 3rd surv can opt to leave the area before exposed granting a total of about 8 or less seconds of gen time (10 sec to full exposed - travel in/out time) and hope SM doesn't get back to them fast enough to drop another drone (she has base 4) to finish out the exposed and potentially get a quick down OR they can eat the exposed entirely if there are enough resources left to let them get out of the patrol area before they get downed. Base kick regression is what? 2.5? You could double surv time by doubling up, but yikes that is still miserable and the margin for error in regards to injuries and downs is even thinner than with the knight.
Disabling the drone is almost not an option. 3 seconds to place vs. 10 to disable and the fact that a surv that disables the drone is unable to disable another for at least 45 secs vs. 10 secs before SM can redeploy. You've also lost potential gen time. And of course, all this is assuming that SM leaves the drone in Scout mode long enough to hack it.
While other territorial Killers suffer a steep drop in effectiveness as the distance between gens increases, the coverage area of SM's drones allow her to 3-gen much more reliably and with a much higher potential to apply that strategy multiple times in a match. She can also with reasonable reliability lock down more than 3 gens at a time.
Moving on...
Ability to patrol - I believe Knight and SM are both 4.6 right? However, Knight doesn't have any where near the base detection abilities that SM has. He'll know where one surv is at most based on a guard chasing someone and the gen they might have been going for. However, the other part of patrol ability is knowing when and where to go. Knight's base kit cannot even come close to SM's here. She can detect across multiple floors, through LOS, and pinpoint any surv with a claw trap. Whether a surv interacts with the drone or not, she still knows. Checking the radar slows her down a smidge, but from the footage that I've watched, it's not significant in exchange for the information value.
Base regression capabilities/built in slow down - Setting a guard after kicking a gen may delay anyone from getting back on that gen for a few seconds. However, other survs can hop on other gens without much worry. The delay on the Guard gen can easily equate to progress on another without penalty. Whereas SM requires either a 10 second mini game, severely eating into any additional gen time and potentially providing an additional 10 secs of regression, or the surv is gaining exposed that will either push them off the gen pretty fast on its own, or provide opportunity for a quick down. If the surv goes fully exposed they now have to be extremely careful (i.e. much less gen time) for 60 seconds.
The TL:DR summary:
In short, SM can do everything required for a 3-gen strat far better, far more reliably, and with a massively bigger margin for error than any other Killer from the word go. The amount of strategy and coordination needed among survs to effectively deal with it is incredibly steep compared to others. Her kit flat out encourages use of gen progression perks and strong toolboxes because the window of opportunity to complete a gen is not only small, but her kit, combined with kick regression perks is incredibly high. Yes, I am sure a strat to counter her 3-gen and perhaps do so without a 20+ minute slog exists, but are those strategies reasonable to expect in the majority of games where this occurs? Exactly how much gen progress should survs be expected to carry in their load out in case they get one of these matches?
And now we have 2 killers who can bring the game to a near screeching halt. So far, I'm not seeing this so frequently as to change up builds, etc., but that could always change.
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Probably the longest was a Knight match where the player was trying to bleed everyone out. They ran Hex: Third Seal, Knockout, and something else dedicated to this. Fortunately, I had Autodidact along with Distortion and managed to keep tabs of others well enough to find the slugs once I realized what was going on. Since he'd just leave slugs and go hunt down other people, I was able to sneak around res'ing people. It was the game where Auto just paid off in spades. When the others realized that I could get them from dying to full healed in no time, we were able to claw back a little. Took forever to find that find that totem though and since he was camping it pretty hard, longer to take down.
Eventually, we were able to kill the totem, but one surv bled out first. After that, I spent most of my time just keeping the other two healed and working on gens. Since the Killer only had one regression perk, we got the gens done, but I think it was pure spite at that point. Ended up with a 2K but, grief, we had to be so careful until we got the totem that it just took forever. I'd never been so happy to see two survivors leave me behind. I don't remember the length and I might have had a recent Skull Merchant match that was longer, but that one with the Knight was so much more painful.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
I am pretty sure she will get some serious changes (maybe even this next mid chapter) because how problematic most of the community find her. I am sure devs don't like these clips / videos where people hold the game for 40+ min with 3 gen with her. Sadly, that's the only thing she can do atm. If you want to play her in any other way then gen defense, you might as well go play different killer.
I just want to say that I hope devs find some middle ground solution to her problematic desing. I wish she keeps her identity as this observing strategic killer, without turning her into pure chase power (like a weird ghostface or something). Her 3-gen tactic needs to go for health of everyone in the game, but I also still want her to be able to defend some generator(s) and be also viable in the chase somewhat.
Maybe they could make each drone way more impactfull, cover bigger area, maybe apply hindred / oblivious so it effects injured Survivors as well but increase the minimum distance from each drone so you can't 3-gen with her anymore. If they would just add "can't place near gens" that would totaly kill this indentity of this killer and just turn her into bad ghostface / knight where you just place drones on loops and watch Survivors leave.
Maybe she could have 2-3 drones instead of 4 but each is more impactfull as I said.
I also hope that positive changes can be done. I wasn't too enthused about SM when she was first revealed, but watching some folks play her (not ones who pitched a tent in the middle of 3 gens and called it day) piqued my interest since I tend to favor 'territory control' style of play, at least the theory of it.
That said, I really don't know if she can be 'fixed' without major changes. I've watched a few matches where SM's base ability alone was enough to control the gens because of how accurate and reliable the information is. (Disabling/not disabling the drone gains survs pretty much nothing with a 3-gen strat.) These matches were faster overall because the survs could at least make SOME progress because of the lack of regression perks, but even with 2 people running gen progress perks - one Prove and one Hyperfocus, I think - it still took around 5-7-ish minutes to break the 3 gen. Since ALL the survs were hitting the 3 gen, SM was able to just drone up another, relatively nearby gen and start the process almost from scratch. IIRC, that game ended in tie and too about 20 minutes. Again, this was with no add ons and no regression perks. The Killer used Enduring, spirit Fury, and I can't remember the other.
Things I noticed in that match were: 1 drone could be used to defend 2 gens either through directly covering both gens or through controlling the area of approach. Without regression perks, survs will still need multiple ways to progress gens in perks and toolboxes and pretty decent coordination.
I don't know if making her drone area wider would address any of that even if her drones can't be placed 'too close'. They already don't need to be placed all that close together to get the job done. Though that point seems to be somewhat, but not horribly, map dependent. It may just make her ability to reliably lock down 3 or more gens with 2 drones that much better.
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No, in this case I do think the issue is at the very least, partly on the Killer design. Others have outlined some of that already, so I won't repeat, but wanted to add a couple more
- The range on the drones. This makes SM different from other territorial Killers by a wide margin when it comes to 3gen-ing. SM is always aware the moment a surv enters that radius.
- Because this radius can easily protect 2 gens at time in a lot of 3-gen cases, SM can now create a much wider 'locked down area' where SM will always know when someone enters it, granting even more advanced warning on what gen is about to be worked on. This allows SM to potentially lock down more than 3 gens in a single match, or potentially have other 'back up' 3 gen scenarios.
I kinda like the idea of SM overall, but yeah, her 3 gen game is really strong even just at base.
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@TigerSnake said:
Most likely:
Buff her chase power in exchange for weakening her 3 gen power.
Nerfs to Call of Brine and Overcharge.
Although in all honesty, I must ask how Skull Merchant’s 3 gen power compares to other killers. Is she the strongest killer when it comes to locking down an area, or is the community way overblowing it since she’s new?
It's pretty strong, especially on multistory maps. I've had 3 matches against SM on Gideon and they were just ......nightmare slogs and, so far, worse than some of the Knight matches I've had. The first game was *almost* salvageable but only because there were a few bad drone placements that allowed us to circle around the perimeter and work on some of the gens that SM was trying to guard. Two of us had SB and were able to harass those two gens but not get downed or at least was able to draw her bit away before we went down. I also had WGLF and since this player liked to slug too, that came in handy. But despite some fairly good teamwork for a full solo Q team, we all died before the last gen popped and more than 20 minutes had gone by.
Game 2 on Gideon was just a flippin' nightmare. While we were able to avoid hooks in the beginning, we couldn't get any serious progress on the 3 (realistically more like a 4 gen with the config we had) gen. SM wasn't getting downs, but the two toolboxes (one green, one yellow, brown add ons) that were brought and the one I found (sadly just a brown) didn't help despite two of them getting dumped onto one gen at the same time. 2 people gave up at the 25 minute mark, and I can't blame them. The third person suicided on hook and I was about to track down the killer for the 4th kill when the hatch spawned in front me. Normally when the hatch spawns in front of me, I feel a small elation at RNG smiling on me. This time? It felt like the game was either trolling me or took pity.
I won't go into as much detail on Game 3 except to say that it was the worst one of all and when I saw that it was Gideon again with another SM, I seriously considered just DC'ing for the first time since I started playing this game.
Other games against SM on different maps (for me at least) were overall more even, but it's pretty evident that her 3-gen game is hella strong and I'd hate to face her on Midwich or Dead Dawg and that one map (can't remember the name) that can have one side that's incredibly gen heavy.
I run toolboxes only when I have challenges/dailies that need them and rarely run gen speed perks, but if I start seeing lots of SMs, I will start changing builds up accordingly.
That isn't to say that I think she's unbeatable when she pitches a tent between three gens. I wouldn't be surprised that right builds paired with toolboxes and appropriate add-ons in the hands of a decently competent team could break the 3 (or more) gen. But I don't want 20+ minute games every time I see this killer either. I don't play SWF except for a friend who occasionally wants to play too, so the only other option will be to bring 'gen slamming' builds.
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I had downed a surv and accidentally opened a locker when I meant to pick up. Lo and behold, a Dweet. Scared the crap outta me, but hey, 2 hooks for the price of one and avoided the Head-On.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293922#Comment_3293922
Yes but just because someone doesnt understand something doesnt mean it's not imbalanced or balanced. God pallets as you highlighted, sure they may not know how they work of theyre bad but that doesnt mean as soon as people do they're the most boring and unfair thing and maps which have alot are issues for X killer because of the killer power.
I'm sure bad survivors think all maps are killer sided, and bad killers think all maps are survivor sided but in reality when people play and understand thos opinions will massively change. Giddeon is a prime example.
As for people not trying, I get not everyone wants to put in alot of effort that's fine but you cant expect to win or outplay your opponent who is and I can assure you killers are definitely trying more often. Bad SBMM doesnt help though here as bad survivors will definitely go against killer that have understanding
There are also bad killer players who think they get a SWAT SWF every match, think all maps are survivor sided, every surv perk is overpowered, etc because they lose "too much". I see it pretty frequently when I play solo Q - a killer player who DCs because someone ran them for 2 gens, because someone got a flashlight save, or whatever the reason may be and killer players who accuse SWF or cheating in the endgame chat.
And no, you can't assure me of that at all. Making that claim would require some serious backup.
Bad matchmaking helps exactly no one. I had played surv pretty exclusively until the first matchmaking redo and I was still fairly new to the game. Decided to try my first killer games and kept getting matched up against survs that were WAY out of my league. I did get matched against 3 4-man SWFs during that time (I knew this because I spoke with them in post game chat). I ended up putting down killer for a long time with the vague notion that I might try again after the new matchmaking settled or got reverted.
But....
Solo Q matches continued to be just as painful as the experience I had as killer and the 3-man SWF that I sometimes played with had 2 of the players seriously decrease playtime and eventually quit playing with any regularity at all because of the match making and I mainly popped up when events or chapters released. I kept getting matches with killers whose experience way outclassed the (at least for me) Solo Q teams I was on. Like the survs, the killers were by in large nice or at least silent about absolutely crushing us, but we got roundly crushed all the same. At some point, I don't remember when, either a different game got an update or maybe it was something new came out and I stopped playing at all for several months.
Those types of experiences do push people away and it doesn't matter if they mostly play killer, mostly play survivor, play hard to win hard, or play more relaxed.
Personally, I hate it when matchmaking puts me against a killer of obvious lower or higher skill. If it's a lower skilled killer, I get the chance to learn nothing. If significantly higher, it's the same thing only in reverse - I'm going to be out of the match long before I figure anything out. It's the same when I play killer and get survs either considerably lower or higher than my skill level. The lower skilled people generally aren't 'bad at the game', but they are inexperienced and being told that in a ~10ish minute match they need to 'git gud' with potentially 3 other strangers (since you keep bringing up survs) against an opponent they cannot possibly handle just isn't going to happen.
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@EntitySpawn said:
I always see "most survivors arent that good" used for reasons of so many balance changes in the game and I dont get it.
Sure there are alot of bad players in DBD, there is in most games you just dont tend to notice because they have a far better SBMM system in play and you wont have bad survivors verse a good killer etc.
But even if theres more bad players (like any game) why does that mean so many other things need changes? Why is it such a crime to say people need to improve?
DBD isnt a complicated game for either side, survivor is also the easier role in terms of micro management and skill caps (hard thing about survivor is your team or versing a stronger killer). So why do X need to be changed for bad players?
Alot of loops and tiles can be pretty safe in matches and theres even alot of god pallets basic killers cant do anything about (even some loops killers cant use their powers at) and these things aren't hard to learn.
I get people can be bad, I get people can be chill but why does stuff need to be nerfed for those players so they can win more? Surely if they wanted to win more they could just put in more effort and "sweat" like killers do.
I personally see alot of good survivors, theres alot out there and I'd definitely class myself as one. I wouldn't class myself as one of the best by a long shot but theres so many things I see people use as an excuse to nerf thing and I dont think it's fair tbh.
I like any game I play to be a challenge, I don't want mega easy wins or places the killer cant do anything about. This excuse balancing for bad players is weird, it just causes worse balance as more people get better.
Maybe I'm just outdated but games use to make you put effort in to win and get better, you're meant to work hard and if matched properly by skill it's meant to be hard and a tough match, DBD community seems to want the opposite. Maybe they're confused and use this excuse because of bad SBMM/matchmaking in general?
If you arent constantly trying, pushing and playing your best you shouldn't expect to do amazing. Not saying you have to play that way just dont expect to win or out perform the other side if you aren't putting in the effort.
Try to get better, learn new things. These arent insults or bad things to have to do, everyone does it and even if it's at different rates it doesnt matter but please stop using it as a reason to make stuff easier.
Sure there are alot of bad players in DBD, there is in most games you just dont tend to notice because they have a far better SBMM system in play and you wont have bad survivors verse a good killer etc.
This in and of itself can be a huge issue. New or very casual survivors who get thrown into games with highly experienced Killers and new or very casual Killers who get throw into games with highly experienced survivors aren't going to learn anything or improve from those games. The games themselves are over too fast and the player on receiving end is going to be baffled about what even happened much less be able to assess what they could have done differently/better.
If this happens several play sessions in a row (or less) that new or casual person will likely play less to not at all. The less they play, the less they stand to learn.
DBD isnt a complicated game for either side
It's not particularly complicated, but it is A LOT. There are currently 219 perks in DBD according to the wiki, something like 30 killers, multiple killer add-ons that can drastically change gameplay, 18? 20? maps, however many unique tiles can spawn on the maps, and then how different perks/add-ons/powers/map layouts interact with each other. That's a huge amount of information to ask of people who maybe play the game a couple of hours a week or go long stretches where they don't play at all.
Say the term 'god pallet' to a new/casual player and they may have 0 clue what you're talking about, much less how to identify them, use them correctly/play around them correctly. And, what I think alot of 'hard core' players (of any game, really) do nto understand is that the new/casuals don't care what a god pallet is. They may never know that tombstone Myers has a closed fist or that a locker can prevent the insta. It'll probably take them a couple or more times to understand Bubba's chainsaw eating through endurance, making all unhooks with a camping Bubba super risky. They may never understand all the angles of flashlight blinds and how to prevent/avoid them the most effectively, or a dozen other things that people regularly scoff at killers and survs for not doing.
And it's not necessarily that....
If you arent constantly trying, pushing and playing your best you shouldn't expect to do amazing.
...they don't want to be 'good', but they aren't willing or able to invest hours everyday for weeks and longer to learn all the ins and outs of the game. They have no desire to play for 2 hours, watch 3 hours of videos, and then read pages and pages of posts. They just aren't that invested in the game.
Personally? My metaphorical "constantly trying, pushing, and playing [my] best..." is reserved for work and family, followed by friends, games played with family and friends, and then finally solo ventures of fun time like DBD. So, there are a lot of days where I'm just logging in to play a bit and then crash for the night if I play at all. If my matches start off with nothing but tunneling and slugging out of gate, or gens popping so fast that I can't keep up, I just quit for the night. If that trend continues for long enough, I quit playing altogether until a new chapter release catches my attention.
In summary, it sounds like a lot of your complaint is that people don't invest as much in this game as you do. The issue with that complaint is that if DBD becomes an unfun slog for anyone but the most dedicated, I would imagine the game will get 10 times sweatier at best. But regardless, not everyone cares enough about DBD to put that amount of time and energy into it that you're talking about. At the end of the day, it's just a video game. Telling them to 'git gud' is never going to have any effect.
And, whether anyone likes it or not, sometimes 'git gud' isn't the answer because the problem isn't a question of dedication or skill.
As far as perks/powers/add-ons/items go, a thing can be overpowered and need to be adjusted and that reality can be completely independent of player skill. If a perk or perk combination can carry a lesser skilled player to victory, then it probably needs adjustment. If such a thing forces matches to drag on for an eternity, it probably needs to be adjusted. If it allows one side to take the match hostage, and on and on......
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Yep, seems like not only are checks sluggish and 'sticky', but getting a full bar won't allow you to get out of the Killer's grasp.
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Wiggle did not allow me to escape the Killer's grasp. This was an Eryie of Crows and I had a full wiggle bar (same issue with the checks being sluggish and slow to respond). Killer was able to swing at two other survs while the bar was full (couple of seconds of delay between each attempt to hit). I kept getting the checks, but hitting subsequent checks did not trigger escape either.
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My cats are the true killers in dbd.
- They want love. Right now. Even if that means crawling over my shoulders/getting in my face.
- They want to play. Really, moving the mouse around is my fault. They can't be blamed to want their own game of catch.
- "Human, look at how cute I am laying on your arm at this very inconvenient moment and in this inconvenient space. Aren't I adorable?"
Or, and my favorite, they'll just sit nearby and stare, knowing that I am powerless against reaching out to pet them.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Well for some strange reason they felt Calm Spirit needed a nerf. Go figure... Back on point, yes it should be one or the other.
I must have missed reading about the CS nerf. But yep, they sure did. That's a choice, I guess.
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....but as they need to fire their gun more and more,....
Emphasis here is on Need. Doesn't sound like Meg was ever in a position where the player felt they had to drop a pallet to prevent a hit or down. That's just good game play and game sense and/or there were a series a really strong tiles together that Meg ran incredibly well (assuming you played them optimally as well). Even half way decent survs won't drop pallets willy nilly. They're going to do it to prevent a hit that's otherwise assured, to stun the Killer to prevent a hit/make distance, or because it a situation where 'pre-drop and hold W' for similar reasons.
If Meg was never in those situations, it might have been just as deterimental to her team to waste all those pallets early on because it might have made end game deadlier for all them. Sure, you might have tunneled another player out, but the same thing could have happened regardless if those pallets that could have prevented a down were gone.
Sounds like she played smart or read you really well. Maybe both.
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Autodidact - It's most often mildly useful at best and painful in some matches. But then there's the rare match where you get those 5 tokens before end game it's just so much fun. It's probably not worth all the other matches where it does next to nothing or ends up being a detriment, but I still run it on occasion. Less so with CoH usage overall.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255700#Comment_3255700
Good for you, but why do you have to wreck the game for those of us that enjoy some lighthearted fun stuff? I'm definitely not alone in this.
I know we have comparable hours and I've seen Hail Mary hatches way more than a few times. To say nothing of survivors that get hit running out the exit gate but manage to crawl out before the killer can pick them up. It's not about 'the whole survivor team winning', it's about whether individual survivors escape.
I can't recall if I've seen the whole team 4E after being 4slugged, but I have seen survivors get everyone back up after a 4slug due to an Unbreakable at least three times.
Again, there are less disruptive ways to get rid of endgame cleanup and griefing. Even if I didn't give a fig about survivor gameplay or memes, bully squads alone are a solid reason why giving unlimited Unbreakable is a bad idea.
Yep, slug races are rare enough for me. To never have them again would kill some quirky, occasional fun that's one of the few ways for survs and killers to mess around after a match. Though rare, I have been in a couple of matches where 3 survs have been down and the last in chase only to have someone with unbreakable get up and get the rest up for some pretty epic saves even if the end result was only 1 or 2 escapes. Those matches were still fun and thrilling because we were able to scrape and claw for something.
I don't think this potential new system adds anything to the game and instead subtracts a lot more.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237290#Comment_3237290
I disagree, but I think its more because you're focusing on how poorly the perk can be used and singling out the factors that can specifically minimize its impact. My argument was never about its average effectiveness, but rather how it can and is exploited to take advantage of (and create) lose/lose situations. Agree to disagree I guess.
Always fine to agree to disagree. I've read some of your other posts as well and I figured we wouldn't see eye to on it. Just for the record, I don't generally disagree with your point of view, but I do believe that 'in practice' will always hold more weight that 'could be under the exact right/specific circumstances'. There's just too many perk combinations, map combinations, add-on combos and more that, imo, make 'exact circumstances' become such fringe cases that they really aren't that important.
And I would say, I'm not focused on how poorly it can be used (those are entirely different imo, such as a match I just had where a Feng felt it so important to bless a totem on the other side of the map while the other surv left was actively - and very obviously - in chase that by the time she'd finished, ran around the other side of the map and got to me, my hook timer ran out. This was after the first totem that she spent a huge amount of time trying to find and bless resulted in exactly one heal.) but on how I've seen it's use play out both in my matches and in the streams I watch. Very few teams are going to use COH 'perfectly', including SWFs. TBF, I don't consider anything akin to a comp surv team in my view of perks because those really are the outliers. I feel the same about killer perks because like the comp surv team these are people who could probably decimate almost anyone else with sub-optimal builds.
Anyhoo, thanks for the discussion.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237199#Comment_3237199
Its not that people undervalue the time wasted, its that the time itself is relative to the killer's time due to the potential of 4 vs 1, or even just the events that are occuring simultaneously. Time is extremely relative in this game, and if a survivor does a gen and then boons the totem next to it after, they have created a map pressure spot with a very high reward for 3 other people which the killer has to waste time abandoning their own pressure to deal with, at a sliding scale based on those circumstantial factors. It adds up massively and since CoH removes the second survivor requirement to healing with only 1/4 needing to even take the perk, its value in said calculation is extremely lopsided when used properly.
I don't think it's quite that clear cut though. Yes, in a 'perfect' circumstance (all the survs have healed and are now out of the area) the Killer may have to abandon all other pressure to go snuff a totem. But the actual is play more Killer downs surv, hooks surv, this pulls someone off a gen to unhook, one or both go to boon to heal (generally not optimal on the latter, but I see it all the time), Killer either pressures them or is in the process of a chase with a 3rd surv, now only 1 is on a gen. If one goes to heal, it's now an easy down, or at the very least they're wasting time traveling, healing and traveling back and even in a dead area (meaning no gens to pressure ), then the Killer can if downed: choose to hook them again, granting another hook stage (getting them closer to a 3v1) or leave them to force someone to go pick up. If both go, then there's the potential for an easy down/hook and possibly getting a hit on uninjured surv. Or the Killer can choose to let them heal across the map in a dead zone and apply pressure to the other two survs, bringing another off the gen and potentially running across the map to try to get that sweet, sweet heal or also now on a hook.
And while time may be relative, one thing is pretty certain: the longer the game continues, the more it is to likely tilt into the Killer's favor because they're building more and more pressure while gens remain slow or static and surv resources such as items and pallets are used up.
A couple of other things are variables are that there's a decent change that a boon in a 'dead' area is also an area lacking pallets either because they've already been used (or will be used up quickly as survs run there to heal more than once) or just weren't there to begin with, those areas are typically further away from the gens that survs are trying to get completed (relative to map size oc), and most survs won't run halfway across the map to get a solo heal when they can do it with a teammate that unhooked them just as fast, if not faster because of travel time. A boon out in the middle of nowhere that no one will travel to becomes a wasted effort.
When you do add in aura reading perks and slow down perks, the effectiveness of COH further diminishes. Could the solo heal speed stand to be nerfed down some? Most likely, it does seem too fast to me, but I do wonder if that is in part due to the prevalence of Sloppy and whatever the new-ish perk is that can decrease all healing progress rather quickly if the heal isn't finished. But at the end of the day, if survs are constantly abandoning gens to go heal in some far flung corner of the map, I still think that gives a not insignificant amount of pressure to the Killer.
All that said, the prolonged war of attrition that COH can create (yes, it can slow down Killer hook progress, but it also slows down gen progress) is 'meh' in my opinion. Sometimes the games are good - hard fought on both sides - and sometimes I wish I didn't run empathy as much as I do because I want to groan every time I see a surv get slapped and immediately run off to heal as soon as the Killer's attention is somewhere else or as soon as they get pulled off a hook.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237222#Comment_3237222
Power Struggle + Flip Flop is too gimmicky unless youre SWF.
I would recommended Blast Mine, Head On, Vigil or Parental Guidance (to make Head On better), and DS.
no swf. Thanks for the rec!
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
All stuns count towards the challenge, DS, Blast Mine, Power Struggle, Head On, etc all steal Void Energy, so I would recommend bringing a stun build.
hmmm, I'm about to start the second tome line and felt dread when I saw this challenge. If using PS, do you think it'd be better to drop either DS or Head On for Flip Flop? Just curious.
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@VicRatlhead said:
CoH burns up so much time for survivors that I think it's a decent trade-off. They either have to run small game with it and waste a slot or spend time finding a totem on their own. Then every time they want to heal they have to run to the totem.
On the flip side if people stopped using CoH or it we're nerfed they could run resilience or something like it and spend more time on gens so killers could complain about gen rushing. It's turning into a circular pattern.
In fairness, once someone is semi-familiar with the map layouts, they don't have to run SM or Detective's Hunch as often to find totems. But I agree that people way under estimate how much time boons keep survs off of gens. Not only do they have to be set up, but then you have to get back to them anytime a heal is needed, or reset into another location to heal. With the current gen slow downs, it's often more than enough time for a gen to lose a lot or all of its progress.
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@Peanits said:
Struggling on the hook is not taking the game hostage, first of all. It's only considered to be holding the game hostage when it's indefinite or for an extended period of time. The longest you can stay on a hook is 2 minutes (+34 seconds if you happen to have Camaraderie).
Beyond that, nobody is allowed to take the game hostage. Whether that's survivors crouching around in corners refusing to touch generators to drag on the game for half an hour or a killer blocking someone in the corner and refusing to kill them, it's reportable either way.
Based on this comment, I would say there is a solid chance the answer is yes you probably were. But at least the same can be said for the other three survivors too.
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It won't matter. If they don't want to play, they'll get unhooked and go AFK or run after the Killer. Both of which are easy hook states and with the prevalence of hook perks, that'd make matches where it happens even more miserable.
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Most likely because the serum can be used multiple times in a match.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233826#Comment_3233826
"But I did notice a weird trend last night. Saw it mostly with Killers, not sure if survs can do it to, where they were hitting the void rifts to make them disappear. It wasn't just them depositing rift energy because the ones I saw deposited rift energy then immediately went to hit the other rifts in the area."
Not sure how that is happening. I haven't been able to do that if I don't have energy.
Huh. that's what I thought. Maybe they had some impeccable timing? Or maybe they started to transfer, but didn't complete it? IDK, it was strange. I saw maybe 5-ish Killers do it. 2 were Trickster.