YayC
YayC
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@UndeddJester said:
Waiting for the right moment to strike with a "weak perks to target" thread.
I'd actually like to see a poll where everyone can pick the 5 weakest perks either side to buff and see which ones come up. For myself:
Survivor:
- Better Than New - Weak effect lost on wound.
- Poised - Too unlikely timing to ever give value, and useless if you pop the gen yourself.
- Dance With Me - Too short to ever do anything.
- Self Preservation - Short range and killer already knows you're nearby when they hit your ally.
- This Is Not Happening - Only works while injured for a weak effect.
Killer:
- Leverage - Game is basically over by the time it starts to come online.
- Predator - Should add more scratch marks, and makes them brighter.
- Scourge Hook Hangman's Trick - Why? Though may be better now sabos are better?
- Septic Touch - Unlikely to trigger, and even if you do... who cares?
- Shattered Hope - Literally does nothing of value.
add eruption and COB to that list.
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I don't play chucky, heck most people no longer play chucky because his power is simply too restrictive and what they have done is nerfed the one strong bit of his power and just gave him his mediocre power more. Literally noone will use chucky if this update goes live.
People are touting this as some amazing change. Want to know what the gameplay loop of chucky is going to be if this change goes through? Pre-drop. Pre-drop and he will be forced to break the pallet every single time. Alot of loops are strong vs 115 killers, chucky is a 110 killer. Out mindgaming him is insanely easy because he is 110 and this change just forces a chucky to do mind games on most pallets and loops.
Loops are not build in a way where he can use his slice and dice, the only ones where he can reliably slice and dice under a pallet and get a hit are ones like Gideon's stacking shelves where it's just a god pallet in a long corridor so on a traditional loop if you just crouch to the side of the pallet he'll slice and dice under the pallet then fly around you every single time. If this change came with some kind of actual power buff to his slice and dice and could see it making sense, but as it stands all this is going to do is make every match vs chucky be comp drop simulator.
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I edited bits out the original video for easier reference for the devs for the issue (put in my own post but didn't realise this one had already been made, we must've made them very close to one another since it wasn't up when I made my initial post.
https://youtu.be/V_JVrQ92fCA https://youtu.be/587DwGGOuME https://youtu.be/uFFaOUArg6o -
@opxtreme said:
So, it sounds like you want an S tier Sadako. There needs to be a lullaby so survivors who don't have line of sight know to pre leave or they'll get tagged for free. The static produced by TV's should be changed to just create an effect around your screen telling you when your within range of a TV. Ring Drawing & Yoichi's Fishing Net should never be basekit, their pretty strong effects against solo q players. Condemned survivors should not be revealed by killer instinct at all, its already very hard to escape a determined Onryō without a tape already in hand, I propose that full condemnation be temporary.
You make a noise when you manifest/demanifest that's extremely loud and obvious. That's your queue to move from a generator. Wraith doesn't have a lullaby and he moves at mach 1 when he uncloaks, why does Sadako have a lullaby and a noise for manifesting while not getting a speed boost like Wraith.
"The static produced by TV's should be changed to just create an effect around your screen telling you when your within range of a TV.". It literally does that now what are you on about? If a 24/7 wallhack TV aura, static effect within a TV range and a loud noise coming from a TV not enough to tell you you're in range of a TV then nothing short of a flashing message saying "TV NEAR BY" is going to help you.
"Ring Drawing & Yoichi's Fishing Net should never be basekit, their pretty strong effects against solo q players." No they are not, ring drawing since it's rework is absolutely terrible and is outclassed in passive condemn push by other addons 10 fold. Yoichi's fishing net is also completely outclassed by any other addon since it doesn't affect TV aura's.
"Condemned survivors should not be revealed by killer instinct at all, its already very hard to escape a determined Onryō without a tape already in hand, I propose that full condemnation be temporary." Lmao you want to make a D tier killer completely useless? Here's an idea, don't get condemned in the first place. Is extremely easy to not be condemned. All this is telling me is you have no idea how to play vs a Sadako.
You claim the person wants Sadako to be S tier, you want her to be even more unplayable than she is now only you want her to not only be unplayable vs good survivor but against survivors who are literally ignoring every single aspect of her power and remove all punishment for actively ignoring the power.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698194#Comment_3698194
A lot of the map reworks have been very good though. Maps are far more balanced now. Just look at the Coldwin maps, the new Macmillan maps, or Borgo. I also don't see how Mother's Dwelling is still problematic for killer. And on the ptb we have a killer sided haddonfield.
Mothers dwelling is harder to see on, the loops are still super safe and the loops got moved closer together because they made the map smaller without lowering the number of loops meaning the strongest way of looping (chaining loops) got made exponentially stronger. Also Borgo is still awful to play on and still has alot of super safe loops, it was killer sided for like 2 weeks then they stuck pallets everywhere. Coldwind and Macmillan are arguably better but I didn't play old old coldwind so can't speak on that. Ormond literally got buffed even more for survivors for some reason.
As for new Haddonfield, main building is still safe especially if the window vault spawns. Most of the new loops are super safe and the one bit that was super killer sided being the mid map which was mostly baron has had more loops added all of which are extremely safe. It's better just because the 2 window building don't exist anymore but it's not even close to being killer sided.
Most reworks get made "better" but aren't close to be balanced.
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Very insightful. The fact that not only have I escaped VS her literally every single game but I have only gained 3 stacks of condemn max the entire match that she pushed while playing against her tells me all I need to know about her strength. The only thing that is making her viable is that people are confused about her power.
I taught my friend how to counter her in literally 20s the first time we played against her and she also has never been close to being condemned from the 20s it took me to teach her. As a survivor you not only have complete control over her power but you have complete and total information about everything she can do. Even the addon that's entire purpose is to confuse the survivor (VCR) can be countered completely because of the aura changes in 3.0.
Giving survivors all the information they need and the counters to a power with 0 downside makes a killer literally powerless no matter how good you are with them.
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@opxtreme said:
So, it sounds like you want an S tier Sadako. There needs to be a lullaby so survivors who don't have line of sight know to pre leave or they'll get tagged for free. The static produced by TV's should be changed to just create an effect around your screen telling you when your within range of a TV. Ring Drawing & Yoichi's Fishing Net should never be basekit, their pretty strong effects against solo q players. Condemned survivors should not be revealed by killer instinct at all, its already very hard to escape a determined Onryō without a tape already in hand, I propose that full condemnation be temporary.
They wont get tagged for free though. You make a noise manifesting, you need to manifest to hit someone. That would be when you leave a gen.
" The static produced by TV's should be changed to just create an effect around your screen telling you when your within range of a TV.". It literally does that now what are you on about? You see an aura, you hear the TV and you get a static effect when you're within range. How much more do you want to dumb down the survivor side knowing you're within an aura range? If you're incapable of working it out in current Sadako with all the information you have that you're near a turned on TV nothing short of a flashing message on the screen saying "TV NEAR BY" is going to help you.
Ring drawing is not even close to being a strong effect nor is Yoichi's fishing net. Ring drawing is damn near useless with current Sadako since it's rework since any condemn you push with this addon can be outclassed by other addons 10 fold.
"Condemned survivors should not be revealed by killer instinct at all, its already very hard to escape a determined Onryō without a tape already in hand, I propose that full condemnation be temporary.". Lmao, you want to make a D tier killer even worse by removing one of the only bits of consistent information you can get as a Sadako? Here's an idea, don't get fully condemned in the first place. Outside of midwich it takes 0 effort to not get condemn on your side as a survivor, this suggestion you made tells me you simply don't understand how to play vs a Sadako at all.
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@the_voices said:
While I seem to think the current version of this killer is better than most do, I still think she could use some adjustments.
- For one, she should not have a lullaby, her manifesting gives survivors plenty of time to react as it is.
- Condemn stacks should fully lock in as they did on the PTB
- Survivors should only see the aura of the designated TV when carrying a tape. I think them seeing the TVs neuters her ability to teleport mid-chase too much, and the weird static flickering around the TVs should be removed too
- Make Ring Drawing Basekit. Current Ring drawing causes all other survivors to gain a condemn stack when you hook a survivor with a tape. This gives you stronger passive pressure as a whole. The tape is also destroyed when hooked
- Tape insert and removal time should go back to 2 seconds and turning off the TV should take 1 second, not 0.5
- I think another feature that could be cool is if every time a fully condemned survivor would have gained another condemn stack, killer instinct activates on them again, making being fully condemned even more threatening
- Survivors with 4 or more condemn stacks should suffer from blindness, making Yoichi's fishing net base kit
Most of these were just ideas I brainstormed so they may have some design flaws I didn't think of. Feedback appreciated.
I like the enthusiasm but there are a couple of issues.
I actually really like her lullaby. I would rather they just make it map wide and slightly lower the volume so you don't remove the atmosphere it brings.
Agree'd on condemn stack lock in.
Only seeing the aura when carrying a tape won't do anything since good survivors will always be holding a tape because there is 0 downside to doing so except you can't use your item. So decent survivors will not be affected but bad ones will suffer when we need to shift the power dynamic in the other direction since good survivors are where she is completely useless.
Agree'd on ring drawing being basekit. I do think they stacks they receive need to be increased though, 1 stack is pointless. You don't hook on Sadako often and you certainly don't take chase with her. Having to find a specific survivor, take chase to down them and then hook them are all completely opposite of what you should be doing on Sadako in general so hooking with a tape is just something you do if you catch someone out. And at 1 stack that just isn't ever worth doing when it only happen maybe a couple of times per match. Also revert ring drawing.
100% agree on tape interaction timers across the board. Heck just increasing the time to grab a tape and keeping the insertion time would make a world of difference.
Killer instinct everytime you get a stack while condemned might be alittle too much just because of how long KI lasts. I do like the idea though, perhaps do something like gaining 2 stacks while at 7 will cause you to become exposed and scream? Then each stack after that you scream. That way you get abit of info and not the multi-second un-counterable wallhack killer instinct inflicts.
Yoichi fishing net should not be basekit if you can lock in all condemn at any stage. If you want to make someone blind the whole game, you should 100% be sacrificing an addon slot for it and it would make Yoichi's fishing net actually worth running to counter WoO.
One I would like to add is actually looking at the addons and fixing the ones that make no sense anymore. There are alot of addons made pre-TV aura that have now become completely useless and there are alot of addons that relied on 1.0 tapes pushing passive condemn as a reason to not run around with a tape that haven't been touched. Oblivious/Blinded next to a turned on TV addon does nothing because turning off the TV has no repercussions whereas before you had to choose whether you were going to gain passive condemn or be oblivious.
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Always blows my mind the sheer number of people in this community with absolutely 0 foresight when suggesting nerfs for damn near every playstyle for killer.
Do you know what will happen when you all get what you want and all these multiple playstyles like hit and run, stbfl, slugging for pressure and even tunnelling get all but deleted? Nurse. Nurse all day, everyday, none stop 365.
These playstyles aren't fun, but they are a necessary evil when BHVR are as bad as map/loop design and balancing killers in general as they are and I would take an M1 killer slugging or tunnelling over playing against Nurse 16 matches in a row. Most M1 killer players have already left and you're already seeing it, the other day I got 6 back to back Blights then a Nurse. I legitimately can't remember the last time I even saw a Ghostface and I don't blame them because I sure as heck refuse to run Ghost Face in this economy.
Yesterday I got a pinhead and I was actually excited because atleast there was some variety. A killer I used to despise.
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She was extremely intimidating, had a unique design and was memorable. Sure she wasn't massively pivotal to the plot, but the main antagonist I literally can't remember the name of. Whereas everyone remember LD
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697894#Comment_3697894
I mostly agree with Radiant about the state of Sadako. In the right hands she can be pretty good and she just requires some learning. I'm not the best Sadako since I don't play her all the time(Im a legion and Xeno main) but I do have fun when I do play her. I play decent enough that I can usually get 1 or 2 kills every match(one usually being from Condem). I will say I would like to get better at her but right now Im happy with where she at right now.
Saying all that there are a few small things I wish devs would do for her. Some of her add-ons really need some love and could use buffs, I still think survivors are given way too much free info on where TVs are and if they are on or not, and I think tapes should return back to 2s insertion since I think 1s is way too fast. Other than those I wouldn't do anything else to her.
She's not. It does not matter how good you are as a Sadako, if you understand her power as a survivor you can deny it entirely and there is literally nothing the Sadako can do about it.
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Sadako has a power that if you know what you are doing, you can completely delete in it's entirety. There's a reason alot of us Sadako players are extremely vocal about how bad she is right now.
Condemn can be prevented and cleansed extremely easily with 0 downside. Doing this also deletes her teleport. So you're a M1 killer who can remove her terror radius for a directional lullaby with a speed boost when you come out a TV assuming there's a TV on to come out of.
On midwich however you're the best killer in the game.
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"the amount of survivor nerfs is just getting too unbearable"
You act like there hasn't been a barrage of nerfs for killer too. You guys literally just had a meta perk buffed, a hard meta perk given a slap on the wrist while UW which is significantly less common than DS or Adren just got heavily nerfed. Mangled and Hem just got massive nerfs undermining the entire point of these mechanics which mostly affected sloppy butcher which is a perk only M1 killers used. They also nerfed STBFL again, a perk only M1 killers use. They have done countless reworks to killers only 1 of which actually buffed the killer (trickster) while the others all but delete the killer from even being useable vs decent survivors (Sadako).
Everytime a map that is horrifically against the killer is reworked, they barely improve it if at all. Eeyrie, mothers dwelling, Haddonfield and Garden of Joy all still suck to play as killer and all received reworks because of how bad they are.
WoO is insanely overpowered right now, I literally don't play without it because this perk alone is more valuable than any other perk in the game even if you know tile spawns. Being able to know exactly what resources are available where in a game with maps as imbalanced as this extends chases to disgusting levels. It needs to be adjusted.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696651#Comment_3696651
what about current limit doesn't allow you to punish current greedy survivors? hooking a survivor a single time changes the threshold from 7/7 to 4/7.
For example, if you hook someone with 4 stack of condemn, 3/4 means only 1 stack can be cleansed. In my opinion, condemn lock doesn't make a difference right now because of this exact interaction shown by MechWarrior3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8HLaYwvbts
Survivor don't have to worry about their condemn because as long they have a tape, they can just do tapes right in your face. The only way to actually get condemn kills is to lock in 6 stacks of condemn because anything else results in this interaction.
Furthermore, if survivor are shutting down TV's collectively in spread out open maps, there is virtually 0 condemn build-up. So the fact I can lock condemn is meaningless if i build 0 condemn anyway. you can watch Cammy's video on Sadako on Father Chapel to illustrate that.
3/7 is extremely easy to maintain because you are able to prevent condemn being pushed in the first place so easily. Every single oreo I've played against since 3.0 has never managed to push more than 3 stacks of condemn on me the entire match.
Currently the trade off on the time you waste in chase to get that guranteed condemn lock is not worth it because Sadako is so easy to loop. It's just an effect that happens if you happen to get a hook. Locking in 4+ stacks is something that would definitely be worth detouring for since you can conceivably push 3 or less stacks in a chase. The extra 1 stack while being able to cleanse in Sadako's face is a massive breakpoint and if you are 4 or more stacks locked in turning off extra TV's when you cleanse wouldn't be worth risking. I honestly think 4 stacks locked in would be the threshold to make the mechanic useful
Let's do an example, I have 3 stacks locked in meaning I need 4 stack to die. I grab my tape, do my gen on my turned off TV. 3/4 of the way through this gen the TV will turn back on so I go turn it off getting a 4th stack. I do this gen and now I need to deposit my tape. Preventing 3 more stacks before I can deposit it, this is extremely easy to do for reasons like the video. Sadako would basically need to know you did the gen, immediately pressure you off the gen finish as you run by multiple turned on TV's. She would also need to injure you so you can't insert it in her face. This makes cleansing those last stacks ridiculously easy and even if you die inserting the tape, you haven't died on first hook so you've done your job.
Now lets say I have 4 stacks locked in in the same scenario. If I want to complete that gen, all Sadako would need to do is TP twice in a chase to kill me since you'd be at 5 stacks after turning off the TV to do the gen, this is very conceivable since you'd only need to do a single TP during the chase then the injure then the TP on the tape you need to insert it on. You're now mori-able at 1st hook.
If you're at 5 stacks of condemn lock in, you wouldn't even risk turning off the TV and finishing the gen. Infact in this situation, your best bet would be to grab a tape opposite of a gen you want to do, then deposit that tape next to the gen you want to do. Start doing that gen then grab the tape when it turns on 3/4 of the way through the gen. That initial trip to grab a tape and deposit it on a gen is slowdown you just gained because of those extra 2 locked in stacks of condemn.
It's also important to not in the latter 2 scenarios, you're more likely to kill them through mental. What I mean by this is they'll be so worried about not having condemn pushed on them they'll be much more likely to mess up in chase because 4+ stacks is when you need to start worrying about your condemn.
3 stacks is just under the threshold of when you really need to being worrying about condemn so it doesn't affect passable players gameplay so isn't worth doing.
I have watched countless amounts of gameplay of Sadako and my own, nobody right now is playing with condemn lock in mind. They just play and then if they lock in some condemn it's whatever on both sides. This was meant to be a major mechanic and it is barely affecting the gameplay in the current state. Bad players are too bad to notice it's even happened, good players don't care because they can prevent getting to a point where it holds a threat in the first place because it's so easy to prevent condemn and cleanse it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
the whole point of condemn is to kill people with no hooks. this was going to be nothing mechanic from the start.
Without a limit it rewarded you by punishing greedy players. It also rewarded you catching people out with a tape and also gave you another option in your, at this point very limited arsenal. Sacrificing time for a hook for guaranteed condemn used to be good for building large amounts of pressure and would force them to really interact with your power if you condemn locked them and therefor granted very good slowdown which in turn would reduce the time they spent cranking gens.
When cleansing condemn is so easily done, being able to lock in 4+ stacks of condemn was a game changer. It also made it so when you do get a hook, they couldn't just use second chance perks to freely cleanse their non-locked in condemn like they can now.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
This was very thorough and I 100% agree with you, it’s nice to see that I am not alone in this. Thankfully, there are a few others out there that are supporting me and this as well.
The only thing I do not agree with is “Tape interactions NEED to be classed as conspicuous actions. ”
I could be very wrong on this, but I do not believe going up against other killers, and using the killer interactions causes the conspicuous notification. 🔔
AnyWho, I do appreciate this post and I am currently making a lot of contact so behavior can see why Sadako 3.0 is actually an issue that needs to be fixed.The issue is other killer interactions usually aren't half the killers power AND aren't immediate when they are. Right now OTR and DS give the survivor 80-60s of pure, free cleansing. With this in mind, the only counter to this would be to as I said, hard tunnel people off the hook. This creates a situation where it's in your best interest to assume players are running these perks and play in the most unfun way possible. I want to create and environment where playing in the least fun way possible isn't actively encouraged by the game design.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
I am trying to make a collection of videos here for this thread as to why 3.0 sadako doesn’t hit the mark. I have more videos to feature, Video Proof is the best type feedback I think.
I have some solutions and obviously not all of them have to be implemented on my goal. I would love personally to see is Sadako 1.0 with today’s buffs.- There should be a counter and there isn’t. Just like with Sadakos 1.0 frustration but worse because at least at that time you could use STBFL. That perk doesn’t help you now due to the 1 second interaction. 🤷🏼♂️
https://youtu.be/_8HLaYwvbts?si=0-qJTLkuxMId-OIj
2. Telephone needs a buff. For a purple addon it’s weak. (Reposting, my apologies. )
https://youtu.be/ndg1-UX4zBU?si=87siPLf0S3tyFVSZ
3. Have no fear Onyro is here! Just kidding! Cleanse in her face, there’s nothing she can do even with STBFL. (These videos aren’t perfect but go give you an idea of the issues at hand)
Solution. Change to 1.5 for the interaction.https://youtu.be/Hsg7PyUA1ZU?si=CTTAC8a35RdMY3ha
4. Onyros Stealth = 🗑️Her stealth is countered by a loud lullaby.
If that doesn’t catch your attention the “Visual Terror Radius” will.
If that doesn’t catch your attention you can hear the direction she is coming from with her not only loud lullaby but behavior made it “DIRECTIONAL”IF THAT doesn’t get your attention you can see her flicker in and out.
Addon - Clump of hair = 🗑️
(It was possible to get value out of this add-on before they implemented the visual terror radius. It should have always been base kit, because if you are in power DEMANIFESTED you shouldn’t be at the same visibility as you are, when manifested 🤦🏻♂️)
Guess what that also means?! Survivors pre-run this M1 killer with ease.
Possible Solution? Make the lullaby map wide.. no directional lullaby. (Even if it’s a addon) Clump of hair base kit OR reduce radius of lullaby, remove directional audio it shouldn’t be there anyways.https://youtu.be/iBEJ0IVNlRs?si=vcLk62IHbv1h3_XW
5. VCR = 🗑️This add-on wasn’t even that good to begin with but now it’s completely useless.
You will never have to guess where she is because the TV will disappear and that is your cue to prerun. She’s M1 so you’re good…
Solution - aura stays on. (Auras of TVs shouldn’t be visible unless you have a tape in hand in my humble opinion)https://youtu.be/1hpmWZfKIvU?si=SGR_7cqD16HDGYk4
Iri vídeo tape and tape editing deck = 🗑️I am one survivor with half a brain, and I was able to turn off three TVs by myself, imagine what the other three survivors could do. Sadako doesn’t stand a chance. No mobility, No condemn, No TVs, but hey you might get a brief aura read :)
Solution - Bring passive condemn back for tape editing deck. Iri vídeo tape - remove EITHER 20% longer cooldown OR let condemn affect targets. (If too strong then half a stack.)https://youtu.be/aB1SPavJJfY?si=thCX3AGzLlFxqiNt
(I tried to organize this the best I could, it’s 3:30 in the morning so forgive me if things are not perfect or a little sloppy. I’m just passionate and I’m trying to make this right.)
- With the first example the only counter is to keep them injured that way you can reliably counter it. However, the perk used to do that (sloppy) just got nerfed for literally no reason which makes this absolutely infuriating lmao. 2.0's best feature was tape break on hit, without even considering the condemn stacking it was my favourite change purely because it added counterplay to this stupid interaction.
- To be fair you weren't pathing super efficient in this situation and if you did I think you actually get the hit. HOWEVER, I thoroughly believe this addon was made during development at a time when demanifesting didn't slow Sadako down because the slowdown you get while demanifesting is really what makes this addon truly worthless even if you get it to proc.
- The same as issue 1. For more detail on why this is a problem. Pushing condemn in 3.0 Sadako is very difficult (literally impossible vs decent survivors). Spending multiple minutes min maxing everything you possibly can for it to be removed by an uncounterable situation is beyond ridiculous when other killer will have multiple hook states in the time it takes you to build condemn. The only downside is you take a hit. Other killers grab survivors off interactions with their power, why can't Sadako?
- Honestly the Lullaby isn't the biggest issue. The issue is the Lullaby is directional and demanifesting is the loudest thing on the planet AND the undetectable does not last long enough to try and sneak up by demanifesting early. Killers like wraith have the ability to make their bell silent or map wide with addons, why wasn't this made an addon with iri tape rather than turning it into a joke of an addon? I shouldn't need to run perks like unforeseen to make my STEALTH KILLER stealthy…
- VCR actually used to be very good because it would give you some stealth by scaring survivors and giving them misinformation. Now with the aura's it is completely useless as you say. I honestly don't know how this can be fixed with TV aura. Just another situation where BHVR massively change her kit with 0 regards for addons (her rarest ones might I add).
- Tape editting deck IMO has always been pretty bad. But what they did to our iri tape is unacceptable. This was an addon that was the strongest in her deck since release so most of us spend millions of BP farming these addons. Then they made it useless in 3.0 so we not only have wasted millions of BP, but now we have a bunch of these lying around doing nothing. It's not even a healthy addon, it encourages you to use it to hard tunnel people of the hook by TP'ing between the hooked survivor and a different TV and either proxy camp them to death or catch out any teammate trying to unhook.
As I explained in my own post outlining how bad she is, Sadako right now is a joke. You only win if the survivors don't know what they are doing and even though I have won most of my matches as her since 3.0 drawing only 2 times, this isn't down to my skill. It's down to me working out which survivors don't know her power and getting them out early or when they all know it, tunnelling the weakest survivor out. This isn't fun, this isn't interactive, this isn't why I enjoy playing Sadako. No-one wants to play the power role where their power is entirely dictated by the other role. Likewise vs Sadako I have a near 100% escape rate and have literally never gotten over 4 stacks of condemn. The condemn lock which was meant to be a main mechanic of 3.0 is completely pointless since you can only lock in 3 stacks per hook and by the time you've gotten their condemn locked to any meaningful amount they are 2nd stage so you might aswell just hook them anyway and get your perks value like pop.
3.0 is so close to being great, but they just kept adding more and more and more counters to a killer who didn't need it because their base power already got nerfed. She was reworked in 1.0 because she was too weak and the counterplay to her power when used in the only viable way is too boring. 2.0 was reworked because OG Sadako's wanted more of the macro back and now we have more macro than ever while being weaker than ever.
I genuinely believe that Sadako in her current state is the weakest killer in the game, the only reason people think she is half passable is because they simply don't understand just how much power you have as a survivor vs her.
- There should be a counter and there isn’t. Just like with Sadakos 1.0 frustration but worse because at least at that time you could use STBFL. That perk doesn’t help you now due to the 1 second interaction. 🤷🏼♂️
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@Skitten56 said:
I agree they should hide the TV auras, but only when they are holding a tape. This means survivors will be able to find a TV to turn off easily enough, but cannot abuse the aura reading in chase. The buffs BHVR made recently to her post-Projection speed boost however did help with this issue.
Tapes breaking on hits is one of the worst things we could go back to. 100% against this. Her first rework was just a nightmare and this was a large part of it.
I'd rather they go back to her release version where she only spreads condemn around the TV she projects to, but increase the range or stacks applied upon Projection. Also go back to how the tapes used to work with ticking condemn and survivors being discouraged to grab tapes unless they want to deny mobility. These changes and keeping all the other QoL changes along with Ring Drawing nerf would be her best version imo. It would allow for skill but also be balanced.
The main reason is was an issue is because of the reasons I said and outlined problems to fix it. 2.0 it was an issue because the TV stayed turned off. This resulted in situations where you couldn't find a turned on TV and combined with map wide condemn, when all the TV's were off it made it super easy for sadako to keep them off while spreading condemn because the second one turned back on you would TP on it, prevent them grabbing the tape while pushing map wide condemn. Since condemn isn't pushed map wide anymore, not only would the TV's staying off not be as much of a problem since you would need to be next to the turned on TV to get the stack but directly turning back on the TV's turned off on a tape break would allow them to actually find tapes. All while giving Sadako some kind of counterplay to just grabbing tapes.
@Violence said:
VS bad survivors you are still going to steam roll every lobby even though alot of the changes were geared towards these lobbies. VS good survivors you LITERALLY do not have a power anymore and there is nothing you can do to get that power no matter how good you are as a Sadako.
I have played mainly Sadako as killer and there are intermediate survivors as well. You have to take into account how the developers want her to be balanced, and since she has one of the better kill rates across all MMRs, you can't just simply buff her. The very fact that she has a built-in mori AND a complicated power means she will over perform at lower mmr and intermediate (if you indeed play it like a sweat) level of play.
Do you balance her around lower/intermediate players or high mmr/competitive players ? It's normal to struggle against good SWFs and higher mmr players since you are a M1 killer, and it's normal to steam roll lower level players because of her mori and complicated power. It's the nature of her design and the learning curve of the game.
However, I do find myself agreeing with the fact that she needs something in order to combat good players that play around her power well, thus rendering her into a wandering stealth-ish M1 killer, but you also have to address the fact that she over performs at mid/low levels. Adding condemn when picking up a tape and/or lowering her TVs cooldown (making it so you can teleport more often) will mean that good players won't be able to completely deny her power which is a problem indeed. At the same time, you need to keep the experience fun and interactive for lower skilled survivors. Survivors need to understand that picking up tapes is good for them since it denies her power. I think this one needs to trigger our monkey brain in order to work, like a sound effect (tv static or stronger lullaby) when you are within a powered tv that gets removed when you pick up a tape, you could give her blindness base kit when within powered tvs, UI improvements to make it clearer that you need to get a tape. Something that says "powered tvs = bad and picking tapes = good".
The intermediate survivors I explicitly address because these are the only times matches are actually fun an interactive. Since they know just enough for you not to steam roll the lobby but not enough to entirely delete your power. Here's the problem, you don't balance a game with 0 regard for decent players. I can't think of another killer who right now has a power that can be entirely omitted by survivors if they know what they are doing. It's incredibly unhealthy gameplay and the longer this state of sadako goes on, the worse it will become. This is because more people will begin learning how to counter her, the only reason people don't fully know how to is because her power has changed 6 times in a year and noone plays her so you very rarely come across her so they don't feel the need to have to learn her counterplay.
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She should be a unique survivor, that way we can have both RE4 classic and RE4 Remake outfits for them.
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@menacing_goose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682377#Comment_3682377
medkits got nerfed and people still bring them pain res got nerfed and it’s still the most used killer perk you say it as if it was nerfed to the point of basically being unusable
These are terrible comparisons. It's entire purpose was to allow you to keep people injured for extremely long periods of time if you maintained pressure. Now it literally deletes itself meaning the entire reason you run the perk no longer exists.
As for comparing it to medits and pain res. It's a terrible comparison because pain res wasn't the only gen regression in the game whereas sloppy is the only perk that could be used for the playstyle it was used for (hit and run and maintaining injures). The playstyle that was deleted with the nerf since now as it just deletes itself, you can't ensure you can keep people injured so it's way more efficient to just run multiple slowdown and tunnel off the hook to prevent them healing.
Pain res was nerfed but got buffed elsewhere (increase in the amount of regression it caused) while also having all other perks in it's category nerfed (eruption, cob and overcharge). Meaning even though it got weaker, the value you get from it is still worth using it AND you need to use some kind of gen regression in the current state of the game AND it's nerfed state is still better than almost all it's competition. Pop now is worse than it used to be back in the day, but again it's still joint best in gen regression alongside pain res so it see's use.
Medkits cost you literally nothing to equip and you get free 1-2 health states while keeping efficiency up. The nerf lowered the efficiency but it's still more efficient to run it than to not run anything so people obviously still use it.
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Give me a stealth survivor over someone running quad second chance perks/gen rush anyday. Stealth should be encouraged more, we're playing what's supposed to be a horror game where most players run at the killer taking hits and actively wanting to be chased. Having someone play like you're actually someone trying to kill them is refreshing.
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Multiple reasons. Mainly it's because noone knows how she works anymore ontop of already being the most complicated killer power with the most moving pieces.
Like you have the most complicated killer power which is already a barrier to most survivors, they've reworked her power like 6 times in 6 months, you come across her once every 400 hours so people don't even bother trying to learn how to play vs her because she is so rare and the counter requires you to be proactive.
It doesn't matter that the counter is literally grabbing a tape then just turning the TV off everytime it comes on until you do the gen, that's too much for the average survivor. Since the power is constantly changing too anyone who did learn her no longer knows how she works and there isn't any videos on how to counter her/play her because she has been changed so often that the videos are outdated after a couple of months and there aren't enough Sadako players to put out that kind of content consistently and she isn't a big enough draw for other CC's to keep doing new videos on her.
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The only thing it's good for is hard tunnelling people off hook/camping without making the timer go up by spam tp'ing between the hooked TV and a different TV which shouldn't be encouraged. They really need to revert it back to OG iri tape or to something different alongside a buff to tapes to have them hold threat.
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Because vs SWF's you need it on most killers to have a chance to win. It's also the strongest build on pretty much any killer with the exception of Blight, Nurse and really good Huntress players where aura reading is better due to how quickly you can get downs with those killers and/or their map pressure.
Then you have the fact pretty much all aura reading gets countered by a single perk whereas gen regression can't just be hard countered without progression which most survivors are running anyway.
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@NAERUUU said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646196#Comment_3646196
It's not an bug ... it's an feature :)
What are you on about?
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No she isn't, they didn't fix the main glaring issue with her which is 0 tape pressure.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
I don't think she is so bad anymore, the buffs were big and her chase is better and she feels better to play.
However I still think 1s to remove stacks on TV is some wild ######### and its pretty unfair for Survivor that even mid chase next to you can undone condement kill. Like there are no stakes.
They're not. The only reason she has any viability right now is because nobody knows what's going on anymore other than Sadako players and even half of them don't know all the changes since she's had 6 iterations in 6 months and there are changes that aren't even mentioned.
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My guess is the dream world caused the fog to disappear and instead of trying to fix it they just killswitched him for the modifier.
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Problems
Survivors are never punished for mistakes because there's 5 counters at any one time and there is 0 threat to holding a tape, AGAIN.
- The first iteration you added passive condemn gain holding a tape because you knew she needed threat and to encourage survivors not to wait until the last second to cleanse.
- The first PTB rework of 2.0 you made it so holding a tape has no threat and literally everyone complained so then you added it when you pushed it to live. It was THE defining change of live 2.0 from PTB 2.0.
- Then 3.0 rework on the PTB there was again, 0 threat to holding a tape outside of gaining a single stack of condemn when you grab a tape which is nothing for shutting down being able to push condemn to an entire section of the map.
- Then you also made putting tapes away take 0 time so if you let your condemn build up all the way you never need to worry because you can put a tape away mid chase since it's so fast giving condemn 0 threat.
- Now you've not only not added pressure back to her tapes when pushing it to live, but you took the two bits of pressure away of gaining a single condemn stack and locking meaningful condemn while simultaneously letting survivors just walk around turning off TV's they walk by while holding a tape. THEN made it so there is a cooldown on actually pushing condemn.
So grabbing a tape prevents Sadako TP'ing for 70s. Prevents Sadako pushing condemn. Doesn't build condemn for you or threaten building condemn to you in anyway or your team. Doesn't have any punishment for being caught out with one since you can't destroy it without hooking which doesn't reward you in any meaningful way and allows you to cleanse your condemn whenever you want with a killer interaction so quick you can do it twice in the time it takes Sadako to just Demanifest.
I haven't seen a killer have so many counters to their power before in my life. I can't believe you've learned TWICE now that she NEEDS PRESSURE ON HER TAPE and she needs to be able to punish survivors for waiting until the last second to cleanse and yet you went ahead and removed all pressure on her tape.
No meaningful condemn can be pushed mid chase because it only pushes it at the end of the teleport animation not at the start and you can see all the TV's. So you're being chased, you run towards a TV to bait her to TP on it then when she does you can run away from it and leave the 16m radius before the animation is done and completely prevent the condemn push. Since you see all TV auras it doesn't even take effort like it did in 1.0 to do this.
Watch a VOD of onepumpwillie playing her. He is arguably the best Sadako player in the world, far more skilled than basically any other Sadako player. Now I want you to pay attention to just how much effort he is needing to put in to push any meaningful condemn. Now I want you to count just how many times a survivor instantly cleanses all the condemn in his face (a massive complaint from 1.0 Sadako that was finally remedied with live 2.0 Sadako just to be brought back with 3.0 Sadako). It's absolutely ridiculous that a survivor can't be punished for letting so much condemn build up on them while you have the killer needing to do gods work just to get the survivor to a state where it actually holds a threat. You've got killers like Nurse and Blight who can finish chases in under 20s, meanwhile Sadako who's an M1 killer needs to spend LITERAL MINUTES building up condemn doing perfect play after perfect play after perfect play and a survivor can mitigate literally all of it with at best, a 15s detour.
Suggestions For Fixes
Remove the ability to just turn off TV's while you are holding a tape OR you need to make it so doing this turns the TV's off for a shorter time than grabbing a tape traditionally does AND has more of a punishment than 1 stack of condemn. 1 person shouldn't be able to grab a tape and just go round turning off every TV on the map with 0 repercussions.
Make it so Sadako can actually do something about the tape being held. If you're going to let them instantly put tapes a way, we need a way to destroy them without hooking them. Destroy them when they are hit and turn the TV back on that it was grabbed from. This prevents the situation where no TV's are turned on for cleansing and will allow the Sadako to punish people on that gen by getting some condemn push when the tape is broken.
Revert the condemn lock changes.
Remove the terrible cooldown on pushing condemn in the first place. Condemn on TP needs to be locked in ON THE INITIAL TELEPORT ANIMATION NOT AT THE END.
Revert the ring drawing change. You nerfed the slug playstyle on it, why rework it again. Current ring drawing should be base kit since we can't even break tapes so there is an actual punishment for being caught out with a tape. The fact ring drawing is currently bugged and has both the new and old effect and meaningful condemn still can't be pushed shows just how horrific she currently is.
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Thanks for that Behaviour. How you could think more nerfs would be appropriate blows my mind. Tapes still hold no threat (even though the whole reason she was changed from the last PTB to current live is because you learned giving the tape no threat was a bad idea).
- Survivors can still completely delete the ability for you to push power on half the map and major POI's on the map like main building. Seriously you take the tape on main building of Ormand for example and the entire middle of the map is a complete condemn deadzone.
- She still has terrible chase potential and now the only thing she has is TP'ing quickly.
- Survivors can put Tapes in your face more than ever so now you spend 45 minutes building condemn and it means literally nothing because there is no threat to letting it build.
- All this and now you've added back a timer to pushing condemn so you can't even punish players for doing gens right next to TV's.
There is literally 0 chance you will ever push any meaningful condemn on any survivor who has a brain.
Well, I'm going to go equip iri tape and hard tunnel people off hook all game combo'd with "Make your Choice" I guess since that's now going to be the only viable playstyle for her. Nevermind I'll just not play her at all. You reworked her in the first place because she was terrible outside 1 playstyle with very particular addons and now she is substantially worse than her initial form. An M1 killer with a teleport. There is now so much micro managing on the condemn for no reward, it's not worth it at all.
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@blithes said:
yesterday i have a game against skully, to which i got one of the little triangles (whatever they're called) for a good majority of the game, didn't get chased for more than maybe 10 sec before she left, as she had interest elsewhere. after the last gen popped, i got chased, healthy to broken within 2 seconds after running through 1 drone (maybe i didn't see another one, maybe i'm blind), hindered eventually, etc. i went down, and was face camped to death on first hook. fine, whatever, do what u need to get a kill.
however, considering bhvr reworked her and decided that to fix her, they would just give her drones the ability to apply almost every surv debuff in the game, what would people think if she got a timer for the triangles (i have no idea what they're called soz) instead of the permanent stacks until you eventually run through them and the debuffs apply? even if it was something like 60/90/120 seconds per little triangle. i don't really know where she sits tier wise after her rework, so would something like that just make a mid killer worse?
to be honest, i don't like the skull merchant, i never did and i don't think i will, so maybe i'm just being nit-picky and have a gripe about her. don't get me wrong, she's definitely more bearable to play against now (to an extent), but i think she is just one of those killers that i will never particularly enjoy going against. she's 1 in 30, its not the end of the world, feel free to shoot down the idea (maturely though pls, i don't need to hear that i'm some entitled surv main that wants everything handed to me on a silver platter, because i'm not, it's just something i've had a passing thought about)
This literally isn't possible, when you are scanned once there is a delay from when you can be scanned again so even if you ran through 3 separate traps and got scanned by all 3, only 1 would count.
What it sounds like is you were scanned earlier in the match building your lockon, then when you were chased later you already had 2 stacks of lockon and then got a third which hindered you.
As for the timer on the lockon stacks, that would be terrible. The idea is you build it up over time and then you get chase power. Think of her traps and compare them to trapper. You get scanned 3 times by skully then they are only injured and you can see them on the radar. Then you need to scan them again to hinder them to get a down.
When you walk into trappers trap, you're basically down a hook state. Hags are extremely hard to see and she will TP ontop of you from anywhere on the map and instantly injure you. There's no need to add further nerfs to one of the worst "traps" in the game.
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@altruistic said:
Pyramid Head - Can Kill you by his hand, but requires you to be 2 staged before.
Onryo - Can Kill you by their hand, requires them to spam TV teleports.
In about 3-4 years when Behaviour remembers that Pyramid Head is in the game, they will change Onryo to require two hooks just like P Head
Because pyramid head has amazing anti-loop and Onryo is an M1 killer with no anti-loop so getting the two hooks in god pallet simulator is near impossible vs good survivors?
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@typervader said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3475471#Comment_3475471
Its fine, people just refuse to accept she can do more then 3 gen with her and are stuck in the old ways
She needs addons to not 3 gen, that's a problem.
Here's some proof. Singularity is really good at holding a 3 gen and surveying a 3 gen just like SM. But Singularity basekit has significantly better chase potential than SM does even with addons. And would you look at that most Singularity's don't 3 gen and play him aggressively because he has good chase power. You can't tell me SM's base power of 3% haste and a single dissolution is enough when you have singularity who gets brutal strength, enduring, superior anatomy, spirit fury and the ability to literally teleport onto a survivor.
He can throw an orb, go in the orb and infect a survivor before SM has time to deploy a drone and have it activate.
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@typervader said:
Her chase power is fine now, those buffs are overkill
If it was fine people wouldn't spend the entire time playing her as a 3 gen killer.