Trwth
Trwth
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I’d say it will be scarier, but still not scary enough to give me the shivers. If they want to make the game more scary, they should focus on the atmosphere. Pyramidhead is a perfect example of good gameplay and atmosphere. From his Terror Radius to the scraping of his blade against the ground.
If they want scary, atmosphere is everything.
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I clicked on this post to read what yet another alleged intellectual will bring to the table regarding this issue.
So yes, you need to explain it. Hello? You’re on the forums!
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Totem spots definitely need a tweaking, but really the entire map needs a face-lift, so I kind of understand why. It doesn’t make it any less frustrating though to see Ruin get cleansed right at the start of the game literally every game. Ugh.
I think they should make it so that totems don’t light up until they take effect, so that you’ll at least have a chance to put them to use before they’re cleansed.
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I am astonished! I had the same exact idea! I gotta say though, your presentation and images are way better than mine.
@Trwth said:
A sequel to my previous post regarding the Killer experience: find it here!
This post is to address the fact that the Survivors' objective is far too easy and way outdated. In this thread, I hope to shed some light onto this problem by suggesting a few ways we could fix this. No, we aren't going to increase gen times. And yes, map sizes are a problem, but my main focus here is objectives, specifically on the Survivor's side.
The Survivors' objective is straightforward: interact with a generator for 80 seconds each MAX five times to win. This process can be sped up if your teammates assist you. Afterward, open the exit gates and escape. Seems easy enough. A little too easy.
The Killer's objective is also straightforward: find Survivors and ensure that they're hung on meat hooks whenever possible. The problem here is that, unlike Survivors, Killers don't simply hold a button for a set amount of time to complete their objective, nor do they have any teammates to support them. They must chase Survivors, other PLAYERS, before hooking them. And they must do this twelve times MAX in order to guarantee a victory.
If the issue isn't apparent already, the Survivors' objective is far too easy compared to that of the Killers. Sure, Killers can do things such as slug, tunnel, or camp in order to secure kills, but that type of playstyle is heavily frowned upon by both sides and discouraged by just about any sane person. This is isn't the only thing either.
On the Survivors' side, most players would agree that, in terms of objectives, playing the objective is incredibly lackluster and, for lack of a better word, boring. It's no wonder that KYF lobbies often finish with five gens remaining. All you do is sit in one place, holding down a button for an indeterminate amount of time, occasionally hitting a skill check or two until the generator is complete. Then you move on to the next. The only real thrill you'll have playing as Survivor is when in the Killer's presence, either hiding or awaiting their arrival to begin a chase. Now, there will never be any thrills in DbD more thrilling than chases, but we could at least try to alleviate some of the pangs of boredom we find on the Survivors' side.
Introducing: Interaction Minigames
Most interactions in this game are a simple as a push of a button on a literal standpoint. Sometimes you'll get a mediocre skill check, sometimes you won't. With the game recently starting to encourage skillful play, this shouldn't apply to just perks and powers.
Meet minigames.
It sounds really stupid if you say it out loud. But yes, minigames. Almost every interaction in the game, including repairs, healing, cleansing totems, struggling from bear traps, searching Jigsaw Boxes, etc, will include a minigame that requires constant player input in order for the action to continue. The difficulty of the minigames vary depending on the action. Triggering minigames, or interactions, can be either toggled or held, meaning that you can choose your preference in the settings if need be.
Generator Repairs Minigame
Starting off with the most important of the bunch: repairs. This is the primary objective of the Survivors, so this should be top priority. Timewise, repairs will be somewhat similar to how it is currently. Here's the chart found of the official wiki for reference:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/576/WY8CEIBKUC8D.png
Just having two Survivors repairing one generator nearly cuts the time in half. In 44 seconds, the Killer will be about to down their first Survivor. By the time they hook them, their teammates will be 1/4 done with another generator. Since every Killer won't always have map pressure available to them, it's only fair if the repair time be increased just a little bit. The time it takes for one Survivor will still be 80 seconds, but the time while repairing with teammates should be increased. So the chart above should look more like this approximately:
1 Survivor -- 80 seconds
2 Survivors -- 50ish seconds
3 Survivors -- 45ish seconds
4 Survivors -- 40ish seconds
The time should be long, but not obnoxiously long. What you see above is just an estimate, so don't take it too seriously. It's just to put it into perspective.
Now for the actual minigame.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/041/EKVNP4N7ZZ02.png
You see this crudely, yet professionally drawn image(it's bad)? This is a rough sketch of what the minigame will look like. I hope it isn't hard to see. But anyways, this is my minigame concept. Allow me to explain.
The columns are the vertical rectangles on the template. These columns will slowly move off the track, either down or up, at varying speeds. The player controls the columns using their related movement buttons: WASD on PC, or the left stick/d-pad on consoles. The more progress has been made on the generator, the faster the columns will move. Their movements will also be randomized to reduce consistency and increase difficulty. If multiple Survivors are repairing the same generator, one column will be removed from the minigame for each additional Survivors on that generator, down to a minimum of five columns. Another example:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/438/1CETYFIPF3AC.png
If any column veers off the track, it will pulsate red for approximately two seconds before causing the generator to explode and startle all repairing Survivors away from the generator. Failing the minigame will cause a domino effect and cause multiple columns to be disrupted and in need of fixing, glowing red to signify the danger. While red, all progress is halted, even for ally Survivors, and the generator will regress as if the Killer damaged it, and it will continue to do so until the damage is repaired.
Survivors will also receive skill checks at random during this minigame, but unlike previous skill checks, they won't appear in the middle of the screen, as that is where the minigame will now be. Instead, skill checks will appear on the generator, as a 2D texture so to speak. This means that Survivors MUST turn to look at the generator in order to see the skill check. Missing a skill check will cause the generator to explode as usual and cause the same damage as mentioned above.
If the Killer damages a generator through any means, the minigame will be affected the same as above. This removes the ability to "tap" a generator to instantaneously impede its regression. And don't fret, while fixing the columns back onto the track, all of them will cease movement. Just be wary so that no others move back off upon resuming repairs.
Another example, right before a minigame failure:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/509/XCLGFUU8TJ9Y.png
Example, after failure and gen explosion; all red columns need fixing(except for the first one, oops):
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/036/6UESWTX2UGNA.png
But this shouldn't be the only repair minigame. Killers will be able to use offerings to change the minigame to that of their liking. All minigames should be different (no "variations" of a preexisting minigame), and have a consistent skill cap to avoid creating "meta" offerings.
To round it all up, everything said above is my default repair minigame. Just an example, and I'd love for there to be more of its kind. Now let's move onto healing...
Healing Minigame
Oftentimes, you never go a single match without healing at least once, whether it be you healing yourself or a buddy comes along to give you a soothing back rub. The healing minigame will be way different from the generator one. Instead of it relying on simply waiting out a timer, the time it takes to heal will depend on how fast you can react. And yes, more bad drawings await you. I'll draw it in gray so you can see it easier.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/665/2FZBGK1FFZBJ.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/322/0UVTREFW0DFQ.png
So, this minigame is all about the player's speed. Upon starting a heal, either on yourself or another player, you'll be prompted this interface: nine "bubbles", let's just call them that. Each bubble will have a button for you to press, and you will only see two at a time: one for you to hit, and a preview of the next. The buttons include 1234 on PC, X-Circle-Triangle-Square on PS4, and ABXY on Xbox. I used Xbox controls in the examples.
The way you play the minigame is simple: hit the correct buttons shown to you and then hit a skill check after the set is complete to heal the Survivor by 25%. Skill checks will appear on the floor surrounding the Survivor being healed, so you'll have to turn to look at it while you're healing. Great Skill Checks start the next set with two bubbles already complete. You'll need to do this minigame four times over to fully heal. Mangled will make you have to do the minigame two extra times in order to fully heal.
Idling for 2.5 seconds, pressing the wrong button, or exiting the minigame at any time(unless you're using a medkit) will fail the minigame and cause you to lose 25% of progress, as well as alerting the Killer to your location.
That was for just a few interactions. There's plenty more where that came from, but that's all I can handle. Again, this is just to show off a concept. There are plenty of factors that need to be taken into account for, which have not. But let's move on to the last thing I have on my mind.
Secondary Objective: Map Objectives
To wrap this up, I'll briefly touch on my ideas for a secondary objective. And before you say, no, breaking totems is not a secondary objective, though it was the inspiration behind this concept. My idea for a secondary objective actually ties in with map structure. Generators will always be the primary objective, and nothing else will power the exit gates. The secondary objective will be optional, but recommended, and will be specific to the realm/map.
All trials will begin with portions of the map closed off and unable to be entered from the outside. These areas of the maps will contain pallets, loops, and sometimes generators or totems, but will remain closed off until the secondary objective is completed. This means if the Survivors don't get on that, they'll have limited options when it comes time for a chase.
Like I said before, all secondary objectives will vary. For example, on MacMillan Estate, Survivors will have to carry loads of coals to distant furnaces to power the gates leading into parts of the main building, which will be much bigger in this version. While carrying a load, their movement is inhibited and they make a lot of noise, not to mention they're huge targets. They may drop it at any time, but leaving it on the ground for too long causes it to reset.
Conclusion
I'm glad to have finally gotten this off my chest. Conclusions are always the hardest thing to do in any article, but I'll put my spin onto it. All-in-all, the Survivors' side of the game needs changing. The balance issue of the game isn't that Killers are too weak, it's that Survivors are too strong. Killers require skill to play, for Survivors much less, at least concerning objectives. Here are my suggestions. Please don't let this post go unnoticed. This game has the potential to be so much better than it is now, and it's our job as a community to get there.
Thank you for reading and see you in The Fog!
In any case, I absolutely agree. Not only generators need minigames, but other actions such as healing should have it as well. I could see DbD being a really interactive game, so I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one here. :)
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Buckle Up: The first idea is alright, but really situational and encourages people to focus on generators instead of their friends. The second makes no sense at all, as well as being broken as heck. Again, it throws altruism out the window, but it also gives everybody on your team Adrenaline, but it activates after a generator is done. Long story short, it’s broken.
Wake Up!: I can tell that you didn’t do the math here, just saying. 90% of your games have Killers hook everyone at least once, so you’ll ALWAYS get all four stacks. Also, 60% means that you open gates in 8 seconds.
Solidarity: Even then, 75%, while being much more of a time-saver, still doesn’t make it very viable. This perk needs a rework.
Hope: If you’re running Hope as it is now, you are not throwing down pallets unless the Killer has NOED or something. I don’t think you know how powerful this perk really is. People just don’t use it because of how situational it is. Watch a video or two about it and see.
Babysitter: The first half is good, but I’m not entirely sure what the purpose of giving this perk a hefty drawback is for.
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So it increases your movement speed during lunges?
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@BattleCast said:
I enjoy these kinds of threads so I will give you my opinion on some of the ideas.
- Buckle Up: It would still be useless, but a little better.
- Camaraderie: Pausing the hook timer is useless. You could make this perk pause the hook timer for 10 minutes and it would still be garbage. This perk needs reworked entirely instead.
- Deja Vu: Cool idea, but those numbers need to be reduced. Then it could be a decent perk.
- Distortion: This perk is fine as is and all it needs is more tokens base. Having free aura immunity 24/7 would be kinda insane.
- No Mither: This perk would be absolutely busted. I would make some requirement to be met before you can pick yourself up like a protection hit or a safe unhook.
- No One Left Behind: This is how the perk should actually work. I'm surprised it doesn't work like this yet.
- Second Wind: This would also be completely busted. It would be similar old MoM but with the requirement of healing 2 times, but im sure you already know this as others have pointed it out.
- Sole Survivor: Yes.
- This Is Not Happening: You have to be careful when making a perk that could finish generators faster, and it's best to just not mess with those sort of things. I'd like to see this perk completely remove Good Skill Check zones and massively increase Great Skill Check zones while injured along with a bp bonus for hitting great skill checks.
- Babysitter: I like this. In addition to these changes, I would like to see Babysitter mute grunts of pain from the unhooked Survivor.
- Lightweight: This perk is actually really good and is extremely underrated, but a small buff wouldn't hurt. I like this.
- Technician: I like where you went with this one, but the aura immunity feels kinda cheap. Something else would be nice.
- Wake Up!: This is fine. I don't see a problem with this.
- We're Gonna Live Forever: I like this idea, but you shouldn't benefit from the Haste status effect alongside the unhooked person. The Killer needs somebody to go for, and this would be like old BT but to an extremely minor degree. Still would be annoying though.
- Cruel Limits: Very cool idea. Those numbers still need to be increased though. Something like 20/22/24 would be nice.
- Dead Mans Switch: This is good. I don't see a problem with this.
- Monstrous Shrine: Really boring imo. I'd like to see Monstrous Shrine do something else.
- Tinkerer: I like this.
- Beast of Prey: Free instant BL 1 is too strong even with a cd. I'd like to see Beast of Prey (and Furtive Chase) do something to the chase music instead.
Camaraderie: You’d be surprised. I’ve actually experimented with this perk a little bit and found that it works best in SWF only because using the perk requires information. If they make Camaraderie a two-way perk and give the Survivors affected notifications, then it could work quite well for aggressive Survivors who tend to stay too close to the hook with the Killer on their tail.
Distortion: I think you’re exaggerating the strength of this perk, even with the change I proposed. You have three tokens base, and have to be proactive if you want more. It’s not free aura immunity. It’s giving you your money’s worth.
No Mither: I disagree that it would be strong, but I have no idea how good it’ll be. You can pick yourself up as many times as you want, something Unbreakable can’t even do, but it comes with drawbacks. It takes way longer to fully recover, for one, and if you do pick yourself up, you’re Broken for a minute and a half. If somebody else picks you up, you’re Broken. A lot of the times, you’re not even going to be slugged in a game.
Second Wind: I edited it to something a little different. If it doesn’t work, that’s fine. It was worth a try.
WGLF: Edited to be more team-oriented than another version of BT.
Dead Man’s Switch: I love the concept of this perk, but the devs made it so that you get barely any value from it. I feel like in this version, in the right hands, this perk could be a monster when paired with Ruin, which is exactly what I wanna get out of it.
Monstrous Shrine: Just trying something different. Something not gimmicky that any Killer can use and get value from. I didn’t want to associate it with the basement because I didn’t want to encourage basement camping. There’s probably a correct way to do it though.
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@PigNRun said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1234223#Comment_1234223
- Second Wind: First off, you need to heal two health states. Thats even more situational than the current one (it makes sense why, but making a situational perk even more situational is eh...). Second, you start healing when you are injured. Basically, you arent saving time, you are just extending the chase (unless you stepped on a trap) by healing passively after getting hit once during said chase. The extra healing speed is nice, but why get healed by someone else if you are passively healing? Dont get me wrong, its a valid perk idea (other than a few points). But Second Wind doesnt need this because I personally like using it more like it is now.
- Flip Flop: I have used it and went against it. 50% is enough. But the Survivor can easily crawl to places which really makes a difference. See certain Badham buildings, Haddonfield in general, Lery's after it got stupidly reworked. By itself, its situational. But combo it with a few other perks and certain maps and you make it too reliable for its effect.
- Slippery Meat: The worst part of old DS wasnt the Obsession having DS, it was a non-Obsession having DS, because it wasted a lot more of the Killer's time than the DS of the Obsession (pick-up time + carry time). 70% despite "hooks being too close hur hur" still happens, especially on some maps, the same way that you sometimes could counter old non-Obsession DS and sometimes could not. Just because you make an unfun and awfully designed perk trigger less often, doesnt mean that its suddenly balanced.
- Technician: Simple. For aura immunity, on top of the generator bonus, its too much for a single perk. Give that effect to something else and Id agree.
- WGLF: My bad. Read the values wrong while scrolling up and down so much. Its fine, I guess.
- Bitter Murmur: The problem is that it punishes a certain Survivor for another Survivor doing something they couldnt have predicted. For instance, imagine if someone is hiding near the Killer and a gen goes off in the distance? The guy hiding gets screwed over by teammates. Its fine if you get screwed over by teammates out of their own behaviour, but a perk that does that... Not so sure.
- Coulrophobia: While niche, it still has its place on anti-healing builds. If you decrease the values this much (which is understandable), you make it less effective on its original purpose, where it already has a place.
Second Wind: I get what you mean now. Worth a try.
Flip-Flop: That’s a valid reasoning, but I still think the conversion should be consistent. In the current version, you have to recover all the way to get a measly 48% wiggle meter at tier 3. In that case, you might as well use Unbreakable. However, we don’t want this perk on the same level as Unbreakable, similar to Boil Over. I could lower my maximum values back down to 40%/45%/50%, but remove the first part where only half of your recovery is converted just so it feels more consistent.
Slippery Meat: Kinda saw this coming. I’m all for removing this since I was really just experimenting with a wild idea. But in this version of Slippery Meat, I feel that there should be some way to help you wiggle out without guaranteeing escape the same way Boil Over does without downright copying the perk. How else could you make you use of that second effect?
Technician: I wanted to give this perk something other than the skill check bonus and sound reduction, because those two alone just doesn’t feel enough to be worth running the perk. At least with aura immunity, you get some stealth potential since, how often does a Killer not check a generator that isn’t regressing? Sound wouldn’t matter that much unless they’re already occupied. Besides, you’re not gonna be on a gen all the time.
Bitter Murmur: You know what’s funny? I literally just remembered that Rancor exists. How silly of me.
Coulrophobia: I’m in the middle. On one side, I want to change it but on the other I don’t mind it at all. I’m gonna keep mine up just for concept, but you have my stance.
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@Milo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1234223#Comment_1234223
Can i ... butt in to this conversation?
Second Wind: That’s exactly the point of the perk, and it is still is a time saver.Except now it becomes a mid chase ticking bomb. It's kinda hard to heal 2 health states i agree but that would make it really annoying to go against.
Urban Evasion: This perk is supposed to better your stealth abilities. It can go without the invisible blood, but the vaulting and hiding speed should stay because it’s still helpful and makes room for mindgames.Quick & Quiet perhaps? You could easily put that in Q&Q. It would make sense name-wise AND be a nice addition!
Technician: Why?Because it just makes bbq useless. If it became meta then there would be more Thrilling Tremors in place of it. (or with it because #bloodpoints)
WGLF: You move slightly faster for 30 seconds. Why would that equal Exhaustion? Just look at Hope and Breakout. They do the same exact thing.7% isn't slightly. You basically double your looping potential for 30 seconds. Which would promote unhooking in front of the killer more (in distance that they won't hit you right away)
Coulrophobia: Why?My "no" towards this is, huge tr doc would be even more obnoxious to play against.
Sure thing. Sorry for the late response.
Second Wind, I completely understand. When I was writing it, I considered giving it the “not in chase” condition because of that exact reason, but I thought it would be kinda useless that way. Would you agree? Or is current Second Wind still a little better?
Urban Evasion: Well yeah, but with Q&Q you might as well do a medium-vault since it’s completely silent. With this Urban Evasion, there’s no cooldown because these are slow vaults, which is more reliable for the kinda mindgames/jukes I’m thinking about at least.
Technician: I highly doubt it’ll become meta, even with my change. From how it appears currently, Technician is a pretty much a stealth perk, so I gave it stealth capabilities while retaining its reliability for newer players having trouble with skill checks, while the higher rank players won’t find it as appealing since the aura disruption is really the only upside they’d be after. But they could just use Distortion in that case.
WGLF: I know what you’re saying, but with the existence of perks such as BT and DS, you can’t stop people from unhooking like that. Even still, 30 seconds isn’t that long. But if it’s really that problematic, I have an alternative version where in those 30 seconds, the two affected Survivors need to stay within 8 meters of each other in order for the effect to stay active. This way, the unhooked can effectively bodyblock if need be and/or find a place to stop and heal easier. I thought this would be too complicated though, but I’ll gladly make the change.
Coulrophobia: That’s just one Killer, and I hardly ever see Doctors as much given the rise in diversity of viable Killers nowadays, much less Docs with huge TRs.
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@PigNRun said:
- Calm Spirit: Way too much #########. Either give it the Killer's position notification or the grunts while doing actions. Both is too much.
- Distortion is fine as it is.
- I dont like this version of Second Wind. Maybe as a separate perk, but I like the current one more as a time saver, rather than an extra health state thats not very easy to pull off.
- This Is Not Happening: Meh. Extra action speed? Does it really need that? Would that 2% make it worth it?
- Urban Evasion: Same deal as Calm Spirit. Way too much together. But honestly, Urban Evasion is fine as it is. If you want to make blood invisible while crouching, then use any of the other perks that reduce that.
- Flip Flop: No. 50% is fine.
- Slippery Meat: Do we really need another old non-Obsession DS? No.
- Technician: Remove the aura-reading immunity and its fine.
- WGLF: The problem with this one is that if you give a free haste, then you need Exhaustion. And if you give both of them Exhaustion, then the unhooked will be denied their preferred Exhaustion perk by a teammate. Another idea would be better.
- Agitation: The perk is fine as it is.
- Bitter Murmur: Eh, no. You kill other Survivors' stealth because another Survivor chose to pop a gen.
- Coulrophobia: Leave it at only affect healing (with its current numbers) but apply a lingering effect like other AoE Survivor perks.
- Remember Me: Simply revert the changes made to it during the EGC update and make the Obsession change automatically to the last Survivor alive.
- Beast of Prey: I honestly think they should just make it hide the red stain as soon as chase starts, with no cd. Like M&A bit for red stain only.
All others, I believe are fine.
Calm Spirit: I guess that’s fair.
Distortion: Only three tokens per match? Really? There’s gotta be a way to earn more.
Second Wind: That’s exactly the point of the perk, and it is still is a time saver.
This Is Not Happening: With the upcoming repair changes, yes, it would definitely make a difference.
Urban Evasion: This perk is supposed to better your stealth abilities. It can go without the invisible blood, but the vaulting and hiding speed should stay because it’s still helpful and makes room for mindgames.
Flip-Flop: Have you ever even used this perk? Better yet, how often are you slugged long enough to even recover that much? The perk is supposed to punish slugging to an extent. Current Flip-Flop just doesn’t work.
Slippery Meat: I was trying something different with this one, and I don’t think it would be that impactful unless testing says otherwise. With hook spawns becoming closer together due to the sabotage update, I doubt you’ll be hit with this “non-obsession DS” often without the help of teammates.
Technician: Why?
WGLF: You move slightly faster for 30 seconds. Why would that equal Exhaustion? Just look at Hope and Breakout. They do the same exact thing.
Agitation: It’s supposed to make the hooking process quicker to save time. At least, that was the vision. It’s just an idea. I’d be fine keeping it the same.
Bitter Murmur: Similar to Agitation.
Coulrophobia: Why?
Remember Me: That’s pretty much exactly what I did.
Beast of Prey: It’s written weirdly but that’s pretty much what’s there. There’s a cooldown because I thought people could exploit it by breaking chase and going back to do it again. Then again, it’s hard to know without testing, so maybe.
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I guess slugging runs in the family. :)
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Yes.
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I think it’s fine the way it is. Fake pallets are supposed to instill the feeling of, “throw at your own risk.” Windows of Opportunity’s job is just to show you where they are, not to tell you if they’re real.
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Because the devs want to fully rework him. How they will do so is still an enigma because there’s only so much you can do with a chainsaw. My personal idea is to make him kind of like Legion (ironically) where he runs around and eats up pallets and Survivors like it’s a Saturday morning buffet.
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I brought this up a while ago too and I completely agree, but those passive powers cannot be game-changing, but instead helpful quirks that encourage different playstyles without forcing it.
But there’s a problem with doing even that, which is the base mechanics of Survivors. There’s very, very few ingredients to brew with. Walking, running, crouching, vaulting, hiding in lockers, and holding M1/R1. Scratch marks, blood trails, bleedout time, and sacrifice speed. What I’m trying to say is that to give Survivors helpful passives, there needs to be more mechanics added to their base to create these quirks. Then and only then can we brainstorm.
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@BastardKing said:
I know a streamer who has pretty much the same idea for the End Game Collapse. People who think End Game Collapse is killer sided don't play killer. Survivors get a minimum of 3 chances to escape, and only need to succeed once. Killers have to prevent all of them to win. Either way, it is boring. The change to avoiding the killer and finding a hatch is way more interesting. Otherwise, it is heavily reliant on RNG.
I like your idea for the Moris and Keys. My opinions and feedback on it;
I also think that Cypress Mori's should be removed, and should be a default power in the game. By the time you down the last survivor, if you hook them they are going to insta-die anyway, so the only thing this changes is whether you get DSed or not, and more than half the time, even if they were just unhooked, it means you are both sitting around doing nothing for a minute. Very boring for both involved. Would also lets us see those cool animations more often.
I like the change of Mori's to make it so every survivor has to be hooked. It offers the counter play by making it so that hardcore tunneling doesn't work to just remove people from the game, but still makes it useful to killers. This would reinforce a stealth meta into the game, in case moris show up. Designated Unhookers, Gen Jockies, and Loopers would now need the person who can remain unfound when a Mori pops up.
I like the change to keys because it does force them to earn it. Currently, there is literally no counterplay. Even with a Mori, killers have to get the survivors down first, and have hooked them. A key is the equivalent of every killer having Rancor, possibly against multiple targets if they get it when there are 1 gen left to do and 3 people.
I would also add the change that keys should not be able to be found in game without the perk Plunderer's. It is one thing to bring it into the game at the start, similar to a Mori, but the only killer equivalents are Rancor and Devour Hope, and both of them require perk slots.
My first feedback on it would be changing some add ons to make it so that the minimum charges don't drop. I.E. once you reach 10 charges, it will not drop below 10 if you are hooked.
Second feedback; if you are running into a deadzone and in a SWF group, what stops you from dropping your key right before you go down? Would it retain charges?
Thanks for the feedback!
For Keys, the method to earning charges is kinda up for debate. I initially thought about making it like Stake Out where you stand in the terror radius to gain charges, but that wouldn’t work. Doing gens also wouldn’t, so altruism was the best thing I could do.
As for losing charges, I was thinking maybe there would be add-ons that reduce how many charges you lose on hook. But then again, these types of Keys are made for long games where you’ll be healing and saving a lot to keep up, or at least that’s the intention.
And that last part, I actually did think of that and... it’s really a debatable topic. Sure, it would be a good strat to stock up or bring a Skeleton Key and hide it for later. On the other hand, we could make it lose about 5 charges if you drop it manually (not from Franklin’s). It really doesn’t make much of a difference.
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@sgabriel1898s said:
What do you think about turn the "Memento Mori" into just an offering for gain blood points, on the last hook of survivor? The same could be made with the keys, turn them usable only after the 5 gens, when them all completed, and reward the survivors with bp as well.
Yeah, but that just makes them really boring. You could just run a Survivor Pudding instead. Besides, it’s a unique part of the game that should receive its fair share of love. Same thing with Keys. Their existence in the game now is more of a proof of concept, now we just need to build off of what we have to make it something special.
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For Surge, remove the cooldown and basic attack condition. That’s all that needs to be done.
Mindbreaker, remove the “below 50%” nonsense and increase the Exhaustion timer up to about 6 or 7 seconds.
Cruel Limits is difficult because, on paper, its effect sounds amazing, but since all of the old maps (Macmillan, Asylum, Swamp) don’t have as many vaults as the newer maps (Hawkins, Glenvale), it’s not as strong as it should be.
Even still, my idea is that it blocks all vaults within 24 meters around regressing generators that lasts for an additional 20 or so seconds. This way, you’ll always benefit from the perk and it synergizes very well with Ruin.
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Any Means Necessary should be basekit somehow for Survivors just because it just makes sense to me. Flip-Flop too.
Pop Goes the Weasel for Killers should also be base because they should be rewarded for doing their objective somehow without the use of perks.
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I made a post recently to recreate these two pieces of the game. As much as they’re broken strong and pretty dull compared to everything that’s been done to spice up the game, they’re still essential in DbD.
Moris are an easy change since they’re offerings: decrease their spawn rate in the Bloodweb and make it so that you must hook all four Survivors before anyone can be killed.
Keys are more difficult because it’s not just the item that’s the problem, it’s how the hatch works. They have to change that before they change keys, but the easiest thing they can do currently is to make the keys have a long animation instead of escaping with the click of a button.
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Playing With Fire
After vaulting 5 times during a chase, your movement speed is increased by 5%/6%/7% for 20 seconds.
Cooldown of 20 seconds. Cannot be used while Exhausted.
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I love the idea of maps having unique functions, which Sirenhead would be amazing to have as a map feature and not so much a Killer. Maybe when a Survivor is downed it’ll mimic their scream, or play fake heartbeats like the Doctor does. Sounds like fun to me.
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Plague’s teachables are all insanely good and super helpful in general.
Corrupt Intervention helps you get a match started.
Infectious Fright is a must-have for snowballing.
Dark Devotion is better than it sounds.
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Actually, the hatch spawns because there’s no way one Survivor could finish all remaining gens. However, the way it works currently could definitely use some tinkering.
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@tizzi717 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/144408/moris-keys-and-the-endgame-a-rework-discussion
Entitled killer main, like the end game collpase isn't killer sided. really come on
Gee, thanks. I’m willing to have a logical discussion about my ideas, but instead you’d rather insult me and dismiss my ideas as biased. If you’re gonna comment on this thing without even reading, what’s even the point of you being here?
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1216202#Comment_1216202
The cost is getting the gens done. If going out the key with hatch is "free" then so is walking out gates; The more complex a change is the less likely the devs are to implement it. The problem is that the cost is too low. I proposed raising the cost without any complex changes
You’re missing the point. Using a key to escape is way different from walking through the gates. Escaping via the gates means you’ve completed your objective. Escaping before that point means you’ve failed, but you still won because you got a key from the bloodweb or pulled a miracle from a chest through sheer luck.
And we’re not here to take shortcuts. Complexity makes it unique and more dynamic than just making a simple adjustment that doesn’t even fix the issue everyone’s complaining about. Besides, it makes Keys much more interesting than just an item that opens the hatch and pretty much nothing else since the aura-reading capability is rather lack-luster for an item as special as a Key.
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@tizzi717 said:
to get a 4 escape you have to complete all generators, it's an item for solo survivor i don't see the problem 4 gen to escape 3 people 3 gen complete for 2 people. i really don't see all this strong item, a lot of time i find it before the survivor one escape opening the hatch than i close it the other two die.
You’d be surprised at how easily a single key can completely rob you of a game that seemed to be going super well. Just imagine being on the receiving end of that. And again, there’s no downsides or counterplay to keys other than tunneling the holder, which is completely nuts.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1216170#Comment_1216170
I think the suggested generator numbers are fair. Its nearly impossible to avoid to 3 people going out hatch at 1 gen left and 2 people going out at 2 gens left, but 1 gen left 2 survivors is avoidable with good gen pressure. Especially since once you get 1 person out of the game, you can often bring gen progress to a halt. Moving the goal post makes it actually achievable for the killer to avoid the survivors hitting that goal. The problem is that right now the goal post is to easy to hit.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re trying to say. It looks to me like you’re adding onto what you said earlier, which still doesn’t help the fact that you can jump into the hatch with no downsides whatsoever. What you’re explaining is only one of a million scenarios that a simple fix just can’t mend.
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@SkeletalElite said:
I think a less complicated change for keys would be to simply change the spawn numbers.
Hatch always spawns and opens with 1 survivor left.
Hatch always spawns with all gens done.
Hatch will spawn if there is 2 living survivors and 1 gen left/4 gens repaired.
Add basic aura reading abilities to the keys base kit and change the addons to extend the range of its abilities.
The main thing people don't like about keys is that if the survivor team is remotely competent they're a free escape unless the person with it dies first. This change leaves them powerful but fixes the free escape problem since they're more of an equalizer than an automatic win. If you're beating the killer you won't get use of the key and the killer still has a chance to pull the game back. If the killer is doing really well it can reach a point where you stop working on gens because there's no way you'll get enough done by the time youre the last one left. The key can equalize and give just a little bit of hope that you can get to that 1 gen left point and at least pull the game out in a tie.
Well yes, but that still doesn’t fix the numerous other problems with Keys. If the game is held at a standstill, then that means you are losing and the Killer is winning. Just because you brought a Key into the match you get to escape regardless of the Killer’s momentum isn’t very fair and is a huge letdown. Yes, Keys should give you an advantage, but you should have to earn it somehow (doing a few generators doesn’t count).
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Bump.
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I think only the first suggestion would work, and it should be like. I don't know why it isn't.
The second suggestion throws Monitor & Abuse right out the window, and even stacks, thus making Killers with 24-meter TRs Undetectable.
The third suggestion could work if it wasn't for existence of Beast of Prey. Please, someone give this perk some love. :(
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I feel like those two perks are completely fine as is. Buckle Up may need a little bit of something, but not that. For The People doesn't need a change. And in case you're wondering, yes, I actually run these perks regularly on my healer build. Buckle Up is fantastic for solo games. For The People is a strategic perk, not a blind insta-heal. Instantly relieving Exhaustion will also create its own set of problems too. If both the downed Survivor and their healer have Dead Hard, it won't even matter what the Killer does as long as they have good ping. Lastly, the perk will become way too complex. The description is already long enough.
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@Alify said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1214010#Comment_1214010
oh, actually, this is a typo, I did not want to change the radius, I will fix it
Perfection!
Seriously, the devs literally only made it more work for themselves adding all those conditions.
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I think just taking off the cooldown and basic attack requirement would be all it needs. 64 meters is a way too long. 32 is fine.
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I despise dark maps in general, including Lery’s. If I can barely see the Survivor I’m chasing or the pallet I’m trying to rush to, then you have a problem. Not to mention that playing against stealthy Survivors on dark maps is nearly impossible. I had one match as Clown where I got no downs the entire match and only three or four chases because I could not see anything and all the Survivors did was hide.
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When creating perks for Killers, I understand that they shouldn’t synergize with other gen-regression perks, but why are they so often locked behind so many conditions in order for them to trigger. For example, Mindbreaker, Surge, and Dead Man’s Switch. All of those perks have potential to be amazing, but they have such horrendous conditions that prevent certain Killers from using them to fullest potential. Will these be changed so that we’ll see that potential? As well as other perks that need love?
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There should be three iterations of each map per realm, four at most. The devs should be creative with the map layout so it’s not just completely composed of randomly-generated tiles and loops. Badham Preschool doesn’t need five versions. Maps such as Rotten Fields, Wrecker’s Yard, and Shelter Woods are all lazily made and I don’t think they need to exist.
They could take a lesson from Dead Dawg Saloon. That map, structurally speaking, is probably the best one we’ve seen.
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It’s a perk that rewards Killers for hooking Survivors. What’s so unskillful about it?
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@Haku said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1165879#Comment_1165879
True they don't really have what else to do. But my big concern how this mix up with map design and different killers. Because vs a Clown on a big map this looks like a great thing right ? But then vs a Billy on a Billy map/lets say a corn map/ you just don't have time for this I think. This will be overkill vs him. He can add so much pressure. New Freddy too. New doc too ! And then we have new maps like the last one that is extremely small ! If things like these have to be added it will extremelly hard to be balanced around maps. They have to be either limited only on certain maps/big ones/ which wont be that bad actually and/or vs some killers that don't have much pressure currently until they get reworked /if they ever get/
There’s plenty of things to think about. The old maps should definitely be reworked, as I’m sure they will be, but there’s gotta be a way to make sure that all maps are balanced in a way where Survivors can play however they want, stealthily or aggressively, Killers with high mobility won’t be cramped, Killers with ranged attacks won’t be blocked, and so it doesn’t take anyone too long to get from one side of the map to the other. At the same time, there shouldn’t be maps where certain Killers excel and others are hindered. But the maps also shouldn’t be the same exact thing every time.
It’s pretty complicated now that I’m thinking about it.
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@Haku said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1165784#Comment_1165784
You failed to tell what actualy is so hard about the killer side beyond gens are done while you can't catch the survivor . I mean that means you are losing the game it does not tell what is so hard about it... You basically made it sound like as long as the suriviors is good and can run the killer for long that makes it an easy game for that surivovr and really hard for the killer for some reason ? It is like you are saying - I am losing so it is hard for the killers... That is such a poor logic.. You are supposed to break the chase very often btw ... It is how you play propeprly the game. Tunnel one good survivor for long and you will get destroyed. And btw killers do break pallets, kick gens and vault windows with just one button too. Why don't we add minigames for them too ? Atleast they don't have to vault in special angles to fast vault. And they don't have to perfectly time the pallet so they don't get hit / and even then you still get dedicated/. Basically outside their power killers don't need any other skills to play the game. Just some knowledge but not close as much as the surviviors need
Let me take a step back a bit, because I’m getting myself mixed up. The minigames aren’t to made to solve the issue with gen speeds. It’s to make the Survivor experience less boring and actually require more inputs than just holding down one button. That’s the real thing. I’m not talking about chases being unskillful. I’m talking about the actual objective.
The secondary objective portion of the post is what I should really be focusing on here. Survivors have nothing else to do but gens right now. Gens don’t take long to fix. Without proper perks or even playing a certain variety of Killers(with built-in map pressure), the Killer has no chance in stopping them, especially Killers like Deathslinger who move slower.
Is that better? I don’t mean to come out as aggressive.
I also wrote a post about this not too long ago if you want to see my whole point. The link is at the top under “find it here”.
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Better yet, there should BE more offerings in the game, so people won’t always know if it’s a mori or something more sinister...
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@Haku said:
It is really double edged sword what you are saying. While healing minigames are very coool you have to always think about killer mechanics too. I don't really want to be guy who does minigames while getting reverted skillcheck in the corner of my screen by a Doc. God forbid he is using Unnerving too. Or doing the same on a indoor map vs a stealth killer where I am supposed to look for him all the time around me. It just going to make already annoying/Doc/ or exremely hard to win matches /indoor maps/ even harder.
And I completely diasgree the killer requires more skill or whatever you are trying to say there. You mentioned at least concerning objectives. I don't see what is so hard about killers objectives - hooking survivors, kicking gens. The hardest part about some killers is using they power - not for all though, but the single hardest thing about killers is understanding how and using properly their power. In a chase the survivors have much much harder job then killers. Being able to properly loop a killer takes many many hours of practice. As a survivor you need to learn first - all maps, second - all killer powers, 3rd all killer addons, 4th all killer perks, 5th all loop interactions, 6th pay attention to game mechanics like not getting 3 gen, remember where gens are, what pallets are used ... and many more things I probably miss right now
I don’t agree with anything you just said, I’m just gonna put it out there right away. You’re also missing the point completely.
The Doctor affecting skill checks is part of the game already. If you miss the skill check, that’s your fault, not the game’s. The minigame has nothing to do with that.
And Killer does require more skill to play than Survivor. The formula is easy, like you said: just hook Survivors and kick gens. But you’ve failed to consider the process. If you’re up against Survivors that know the basics of looping, getting just one hook will take a while, and you may even have to break chase. In that little bit of time, one or two generators are done, and that progress can’t be earned back. Also, kicking generators currently does hardly any real damage without perks.
The point of adding minigames is to create more mechanics for the Survivor’s side. Currently, there’s only interactions, AKA holding M1, windows and pallets. That’s it. minigames, while not supposed to be difficult, will require some effort in order to do. Kicking gens will also have an effect in this way.
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Bwump
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In my opinion, I don’t think Killers are too weak. I think Survivors are too strong. Survivors don’t feel even feel half of the stress Killers feel while playing their games.
Though, some Killers should still get their designated reworks as they’re pretty outdated. And devs, stop restraining Killer perks by leashing their potential. Just let’em be.
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I love how everyone’s active on this post months after I’ve asked. It’s pretty funny.
I ended up getting it before the rework by ushering a Jake onto a gen, and him letting me grab’em. We went on with the game normally after that, and I got one kill.
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@Beardedragon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1164610#Comment_1164610
one of those regular small loops with some car tires and a car i think with a pallet in. but he didnt drop the pallet. i was simply not gaining on him. no vaults or anything just us running in cricle. i was literally just NOT gaining on him. is there really a "pro" way of running around a ######### car? i mean is it because i played the Oni that my large size makes me take more time to get around an edge?
is there a pro survivor way of somehow slithering through an edge to make a turn, that im somehow unaware of to cut time?
i have no clue it just frustrated me as im 115% speed and im clearly meant to gain on him at least when we just run in a damn circle without vaulting or anything. but i didnt. at all.
werent even mind gaming.
One of two things: you simply were running too big of circles around the loop, or it was a hacker. Apparently there’s been a lot of hackers on PC, but I’m not completely sure.
Also, if it was during the endgame, the Survivor could have had Hope, which increases their movement speed.
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Which loop? We need more information if you want answers.
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@SlimyTaco said:
Ok, only reduce killer speed 15% and its good!
He already said it. Although the proposed changes do “nerf” the Survivors, it makes the game less boring from their perspective.
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@BattleCast said:
YEESSSSSSSS. MORE MINIGAMES. Im tired of pressing M1 and Space.
Also, map specific objectives would be amazing. Just imagine trying to seal the portal in hawkins, AMAZING!
That’s perfect! That’s exactly the kind of things I’m talking about! :D
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I know what you mean, but I don't think the pink add-on should be base, though it could use a buff. His reeling speed should be faster at longer ranges, and he should also have some control over the Survivors' movement, such as moving your camera either left or right to pull the Survivor away from cover.
Deep Wounds are fine the way they are because they're not designed to down people on their own. A lot of people still don't see that, although it would be cool. I could see Deathslinger taking away portions of the timer when Survivors break free, so that you'll at least get rewarded somehow for hitting your shots, even if it takes four hits with the spear.
4.9 m/s is way too fast. The average speed is 4.6 m/s, if that's what you meant. I wouldn't mind having him move at that speed, but then Huntress should also have that.