TicTac
TicTac
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Hyperfocus + Stakeout is a strong gen combo, but deja vu is easier to use and the gen aura part helps your beginner friends.
Unbreakable has its moments, but i would swap it for something else. The mentioned resurgence is really good.
Lastly urban evasion is weak and it teaches bad habits. As experienced player you could use Finesse (nice combo with lithe), but your friends could use alert (to understand better from which direction the killer is coming from) or windows of opportunity to find pallets.
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I have him P100.
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I recently finished the survivor-side of the tomes. Luckily i got the only-no-mither-challenge on the first try (playing normally, not hatch-camping), but the hide 60 secs 10 meters next to the killer did throw some games. So while i will finish the killer challenges (curse you double puke hits), its probably not healthy for match quality.
I understand that people want something to do. I also want that. But despite that im happy that i dont need to grind to finish the battle pass. And im happy that there is no incentive to throw matches.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084118#Comment_4084118
Well i think it is relevant though. You are asking for nerfs to nurse. Which i have to simply ask WHY. By every available metric she is one of the worst killers in the game. The only time this isn't true is when she is played by someone with 4k hours. So it brings me back to my point. If we think its a problem when in the hands of 4k hour players, you MUST also by definition think the same of survivors.
DBD has gone a long way, but even now i would have to submit a 30-page-essay (complete bs-number its probably longer) if i want to list everything which is wrong with the game. Some things are bigger, some things are smaller, but if people want only discuss the full picture its necessary. But you cant have a discussion that way, bc everyone starts talking about a different aspect.
Like we could talk about the balance of nurse. Then i need to add her best maps like Midwitch. Then i also should mention the chance of getting those maps. Then we can discuss about map offerings. But at the same time others could discuss about pallet density or the buggy non-spawning of 100% pallets. Others about the combination of aura reads on midwitch or totem protecting. Then going on about scream totem builds. But at the same time about totem spawns on different maps. Or how one perk on one survivor (counterforce) can destroy an entire totem build. Then about the imbalance of solo/swf bc only swf can have a dedicated totem cleanser. Ah, and for scream builds we should mention every scream killer addon and people could discuss if its strong or not. Than of course someone needs to mention the real broken killer addon and of course also the broken items/addons for survivor, what brings us to bp economy. Someone needs to make the point that we should rate everything only with the best loadout bc everyone has enough bo to do that. But then we should highlight the discrepancy for new players and how hard it is to start. We should talk about better tutorials, but also about the perk bloat.
I could go on for hours, but i have no time anymore. Those are all valid discussion points, but they all deserve their own threads. It makes no sense to discuss everything in the same post.
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084118#Comment_4084118
I think the built in counterplay mechanic, like the Xeno turret, is the only idea I've seen that handles the issue while not hitting the many pitfalls people point out. It keeps her identity and doesn't change how she plays so much, but gives survivors a chance against one of the most oppressive powers in the game. Playing against a Nurse is just hoping she messes up, and trying to make that more likely. If the Nurse plays well, no amount of good play in return will prevent a quick down.
You could even buff her basekit to a degree if it shuts her down too hard.
I've seen a few suggestions for what would work against her, and might as well throw my hat into the ring. Forgive me if this isn't explained fantastically, work was brutal today. Please keep in mind the numbers are completely arbitrary and would probably need fixing by someone much more clever than I.
The Concept:
So much of Nurse's concept is around that last breath you take. She suffocated people in life, and now teeters on the brink, constantly gasping for her last sip of air herself. I think we can play into that, while giving survivors something unique to use when dealing with her, while also not taking away Nurse's power.
Nurse now has unique stations. These are simple old-style hospital beds, maybe with a bit of entity goop here or there, classic DBD stuff. They start neatly made. A survivor can perform a unique action to rummage the bed, making it dischevelled and giving Nurse killer instinct on them for 2s. In doing so, they receive a photo fragment as a killer-specific item.
While holding the photo fragment, it will slowly begin to burn away, taking a total of 180 seconds to burn fully. However, survivors can press the the interact button while holding it to hold their breath. There is a slight audio cue of them breathing in once, to make it risky to do while she is on top of you. While holding their breath, survivors:- are completely invisible to Nurse, disappearing the same way they do from a phasing Spirit's POV.
- are completely silent.
- are unable to run or perform rushed/conspicuous actions.
- fill a meter over 10 seconds, if filled all the way, they gasp for air and give Nurse a loud noise notification for their trouble.
- double the burn rate of the photo fragment.
This will have a 10 second cooldown after each use, and a 20 second cooldown if you allow the metre to fill all the way, that way it cannot be feathered/abused too easily. Injured survivors fill the meter twice as fast, and hooked survivors immediately have their fragment burn away.
Once all fragments have burnt away, the map adjusts with a global cue, maybe a breathless screech/weep from Nurse. All survivors permanently breathe as if sprinting, all Nurse's stations reset and lock while a timer starts, like World Breaker. During this time, Nurse's fatigue is shorter in duration, making her substantially more lethal. Meanwhile, the photograph has been restored, revealing a picture of Andrew, her husband. This photograph must be burned by a 5s interaction, which lowers Nurse's time in this powered up state from maybe 120s to only 10s. It spawns randomly on the map and all survivors get permanent aura read on it, making it a mad dash to get to it.
Once it is burned, the stations unlock, and the cycle repeats. Survivors find and get their fragments and can stealth again.
It'd certainly be an interesting and different way to play the game. I'm super inefficient with my words so maybe this looks more complicated than it is. I think it's quite simple. Stealth section that leads into a climactic scary section and back down into stealth again.
Nurse mains try not to down arrow me too much.EDIT: photo fragments will burn automatically if not collected from the station within maybe 5 mins?
That would be interesting with the right numbers. But it could be frustrating to play if survivors keep disappearing.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084015#Comment_4084015
Fair enough, when these discussions pop up, usually the argument is "nerf nurse she op" but the reasoning for it also by definition implies that survivors are a problem as well but said person would never agree with that.
So, then, you believe that nurse is a problem and needs to be dealt with. And that survivors are also a problem given the current state of balance against the vast majority of the killer cast?
If that is true, then we agree and there really isn't anything more to say.
As the one who started this discussion i want to clarify some things.
First of the goal was to talk about some methods to hold a power back. This spiraled into the typical nerf discussion, reason why i lost interest and didnt reply to anyone. But back to the reason for the post: Yes, i think Nurse should be nerfed. I think aura-blocking is kinda nice, but doesnt change much. I think reducing her numbers would make her just awful to play. And i think a complete rework would make old nurse mains complain.
Yes, i also think there are other things to be nerfed. Like maps, perks, toolbox, honestly even medkits with some addons are kinda gamechanging and more. But why should i list them in a discussion about Nurse? Its not even about if Nurse should be nerfed, its about which of the mechanics could work. Wont probably never matter for the actual game, but i was curious.
Now im kinda venting and its not about you. Its just kinda boring to see a discussion derail into the Nerf-this-first-discussion Nr. 2478.
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Lets see:
- Stealth isnt dead. It just takes more awareness to use and thats a good thing.
- Buffing weaker killer shouldnt be a priority. You have enough strong killer to choose from. Use them if you want to win. Devs should use their ressources for more general things like map balancing.
- Ranked mode would be better for casuals. Sweats play high-rank for rewards or pubs to destroy the opponents. Low ranks would be a safe place.
- Buff survivor even more in 2vs8. But it probably wouldnt even help with que times, so maybe not.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081710#Comment_4081710
I acknowledge this is probably a bug and going to be fixed but it did have the nice side effect of removing the uncounterable locker saves being back. Because people slow come out of the locker so you either grab them. (Which doesnt give you the flashlight invincibility as normal pulling them out) or you have to back up and swing and down them normally but that forces you to slug them to chase after another survivor which creates a similar problem that locker flashlight invincibility intended to solve. Could we see the flashlight invincibility extend to pulling survivors out of the exit locker or slow enter locker prompts as well? Dont have a problem with backing up and smacking them to down them as its still the better move anyway but it seems weird you can still be flashlighted out of a locker when the whole intention was to remove that. Thanks!
The whole intention was to remove the invincible situation. You couldnt do anything against old locker saves. The slow exiting is just something like the cj tech. The survivor is not invincible. If you dont fall for the trick, its the same like a normal down. So there is no need to remove it.
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@Rapid99 said:
I think the bigger problem I have is not only are there just too many pallets, you also get the people trying to gaslight you that
- there aren't that many pallets
and worst of all
2. They're all small 50/50 loops.
NO THEY ARE NOT. They are full fledged pallet loops. There is no 50/50 there. You cannot get a hit on these pallets that are not tall, so you can't mindgame they just stare you down and they can just infinitely loop around it and you'll never catch up to them.
The game feels terrible.
Some of them are 50/50, but it takes a while to reach the 50/50 situation, so you can waste a lot of time.
But i think its just clear that the current game isnt tailored around m1-killer. You can still use those (i got like a 50% winrate on perkless trapper), but against decent players you will eat dirt. I would like some buffs for my old mains, but i realized that i can now choose from a vast rooster of good killer (and i dont even play S-ranks), so its completely up to me. Every new killer has antiloop, so they realize the necessity of it, but making all killer viable is just a lot of work. And its probably better to do other things if you could just switch to another killer to fix the weak killer problem.
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I must say i thinks its kinda funny now.
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@FoxGhoul said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080244#Comment_4080244
pallets being unsafe only matter if survivors loop them and they dont, because they have no reason to BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY DAMN PALLETS AND EACH ARE 5 FEET FROM ONE ANOTHER. The whole "well most are unsafe is bullshit when there are so many god damn pallets.
Just show gameplay. Wouldnt it be great if you get tips to deal with the problem? Or are you just here bc you want to complain?
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080172#Comment_4080172
I know how to counterplay her. But there always seems to be one oxygen waster every match who never uses tapes and just gets morid at 4 gens
Yh classic solo que. Imo the main problem is not the missing info, its simply that you get bad players if you play with randoms.
Sometimes they are not even that bad gameplay wise, but they still make game-ending decisions. Like playing aggro on deadhook. But there is no way of fixing that.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080128#Comment_4080128
Wasn't she already reworked? Now that she can teleport spam all you need with her is a relatively compact map like midwich or gideons and you're able to stack condemned constantly on people and get the mini mori more easily. All you need to do is spot a surv running a tape across the map and you hook them to lock in condemned.
She's much better than she was, and all you need is one surv to slip up and you get an early mori and the game is basically won
The counterplay for Sadako is extremely easy. Just keep the TV next to your gen off. The problem with Midwitch and some other maps is that TVs are sometimes on the other floor.
That said not many survivor apparently know the counterplay. Its really easy to get moria against the average team. And good Sadakos get high winstreaks and performed well in the last Hens-showcase.
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@Freudentrauma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4079724#Comment_4079724
Yeah, but when you use Play while you wait. It only takes two survivor matches before you can play killer. Which is less then the 1 to 4 ratio you would expect. The mode is also time limited and a unique experience. It's expected that people play it more than they actually desiree because of this fact.
Besides that it's also not good for survivors if there is only one class that overshadows every other one. It lacks variety.But that would mean you need to buff everything else. Bc i dont want to wait any longer. 30min is already far too long. PWYW is nice, but 2vs8 survivor is so much worse than 1vs4 survivor.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4079246#Comment_4079246
And what tunneling makes you worst at? Chase oh no with tunneling you are in chase the same as if with another survivor only difference is that tunneling has bigger impact on getting hooks compared to chasing and hooking another survivor its like doing one work till the end and finishing it and then going to start another compare to doing one work while stoping it and starting doing new one so on.
As you said its personal choise, you will get more wins on average but still with it you will get teams that will destroy you even if you tunnel or not. So calling it unskilled is kinda out of window because tunneling doesnt wins chases just by exixting and experience in chase is obtained throug chase no matter which it will maybe hurt you little in different areas like macro or making judgements and making dicisions mid game because you just tunnel all 100% of times but nothing crucial in the end.
That would apply if you tunnel the good survivor. But that would be a bad decision, normally you target the weak link. If you get them tunneled out, longer chases later doesnt matter that much. And after the second death its over anyway.
Im not calling tunneling unskilled. Im calling it detrimental for getting better. If you are already good and want to win, its a good idea.
And its hurts like hell for everything macro. But most killer are bad at it anyway.
Like i also get matches where i cant keep up with survivor, but most of the complainers (both sides) have them far to often. If they would share gameplay many on this forum could point out how to get better, but they wont. They just want to complain.
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@TropesDaMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4079175#Comment_4079175
I see im sorry, i usally just go after each of them evenly, though the game goes so bad i need to tunnel (Skull Merchant main)
it was my friend who told me that, they have more hours so i stupidly agreed with them not to tunnel. thank you for clearing it up.
Its just a personal decision, but tunneling can also hinder your personal improvement.
Against most survivor teams you dont need to be good at your killer if you tunnel. So you are not ready if you get a strong team. Against them you suddenly need the chase skills to tunnel and they will bring anti-tunnel.
In short: you can get a lot of wins with tunneling, but you will feel absolutely helpless against some players.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4078796#Comment_4078796
It's not about hitting them, it's about making them waste time while I chase someone else.
This was a viable thing that I did constantly like a year ago, but now with the amount of pallets my chases are guaranteed to last an egregious amount of time because it's just pallet simulator.
Its only worthwhile if the survivor suck in the m1-chase. I know what you mean. I had many lobbies where i absolutely dominated bc the guards and i got hits at the same time and yes, thats harder with more pallets. But a good survivor could loop an m1-killer always a long time.
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The first thing you should think about is how you get your downs. Is your power alone enough? No chase perk needed. Does it have a weakness you can mitigate with a perk (ex. Bamboozle for Bubba)/ sometimes you can choose between an addon or perk for a job (exhaustion addons vs mindbreaker) or does something elevate your power/has synergy (aura for Nurse).
As soon you have enough to get fast enough downs (on some killer you need 0 perks for that), you choose between info and gen regression. First decide how much info you need and then fill it with gen regression. Use info-perks with synergy (BBQ on high mobility) and decide in which situation you need info the most. For gen regression the same. (Corrupt for setup killer like Trapper or slow starter like Nemesis/Oni).
But honestly: im talking a lot about synergy, but gen regression has some clear contender. Corrupt is almost never wrong, Pain res is always top tier and works well with Grim or Dead mans. You can craft the perfect gen synergy build for every killer, but the meta perks mostly outshine them.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4078710#Comment_4078710
The problem is that this killer is still garbage so summoning carni to break a pallet is good for what it does, absolutely but it completely despawns a current hunt I have going on because they just refuse to change this aspect about him for some reason, making the entire aspect of the killer with dual pressure, completely useless.
But if you have a current hunt going you need to hunt this survivor. 95% of the time a lone guard hunt will not hit a good survivor.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4078705#Comment_4078705
I don't get how anyone sees this and thinks it's okay or healthy for the game.
If it's going to be like this then brutal strength needs to be a like… 40% speed increase or something because??? What's the point? There's no engaging counterplay to this other than playing the meta.
I don't wanna do that. A year ago I could play fine on my knight, with my surveillance oppression build and be fine. Now every game I find myself just sitting in a corner because 4 gens pop in minutes and there's STILL pallets left on the map. It's a waste of time. Like even forgetting the balance conversation… it's just not even fun. It's never ending pallet breaking simulator.
Some M1-killer struggle, but on Knight you shouldnt loop like one most of the time. He is not the strongest, but for example the Insta-Carni-break is better than 40% brutal strength.
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@dbd900bach said:
Chucky's size is a power in itself, not to mention being third person so he can check corners.
I wonder if he would be too oppressive being 4.6 with the dash.
Depends. Its kinda like old Blight. The power is far stronger for getting a hit than normal M1 gameplay, but its M1 is good for some tricky loops. For Chucky its more the power cooldown than tricky loops. Maybe its more similar to Spirit. But she has a stronger power and can use it in short bursts to have less cooldown.
It would also help with map traversal, but even an 115 killer like Nemesis struggles with that.
So i think he wouldnt be that more oppressive for good players. But he is a noobstomper (stealth, hard to see) and kinda easy to play (atleast against normal survivor). So a buff could bring him closer to Kaneki territory.
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Which region is that? Maybe you can switch to another server, where you still have a decent ping.
I dont have any experience with public lobbis, but i played KYF with people around the world. Its harder as survivor, but better than bots.
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Nemesis is not really strong in 2vs8. It can be annoying if you are unlucky like in 1vs4, but its not really a problem. Far weaker than Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Dracula, Billy and Oni.
Even without scout you can use pallets. There are enough of them.
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You cant get banned for that (Slugging for 4k). So while its annoying, its kinda pointless to report.
I get responses for endgame toxicity, but i dont know if they got banned or not.
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I understand the frustration bc i have players, who want to be healed, even with an approaching terror radius. But it really depends and you need to read the situation. Wasting time running away can also give the killer time to go back.
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Im almost finished and even better filters (than you suggested) would have helped to finish for example every totem challenge in a row, but i dont think they want to spend any ressources on this dead part of the game.
My friends (kinda new, got their first P100) dont even care about those challenges.
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Why not just deactivate the killer power for some seconds? If a Blight cant sprint, you can get away. But it doesnt hurt a Trapper that much.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075968#Comment_4075968
Pre 6.1 being a good killer meant something because it was survivor sided. A killer saying they are being competitive post 6.1 seems a bit, underwhelming.
Did it really? I play since 2018 and it was always a wild mix of matchmaking. There were always a lot of free wins, where playing serious felt unfair.
Its still the same. Against good survivor you need to play seriously to have a chance. It was always rare bc of matchmaking.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075704#Comment_4075704
we've had a billion 2v8s since they added the cage move feature after what was it, the first one?
you don't actually camp it you'd just proxy them and force the anti camp when anyone tried to rescue if they are about to die or go 2nd stage.
I relied on it because in the first 2v8, you couldn't save so that naturally pushed me into being a liberal slugger. that 2v8 was arguably killer leaning but since then we've added saves, Unbreakable and the catchup mechanic.
these are just my thoughts as somebody who approaches 2v8 competitively
They never tried to balance 2vs8. Its a fun mode where weaker players play. If you play alone as killer, you most likely get a bad player as teammate. So if you play serious, you are the only one. Whats the point?
If you had a serious teammate the matches become really easy to win. But if you had 6-8 serious survivor (never happens), you would certainly lose. You only rely on people to play casual to win in this mode, so whats the point of sweating?
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@cammoking123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075675#Comment_4075675
Who cares about Hens and his stupid tournaments? Those are coordinated swfs. Of course fast track is gonna be overpowered under those conditions. My thing is the game shouldn’t be balanced around swfs because most of us play solo and a solo survivor with fast track is not about to make a noticeable difference.
You can make this argument about Shoulder, things like Slippery Meat + luck offering, even Power struggle. But Fast track doesnt need an swf. You didnt need coordinated play to get value from it. I think you confuse swf with 4 good players. Bc bad players couldnt get any value of it if the killer isnt nice and spreads hook.
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He is pretty average. But he has the problem of most instadown killer. If someone cant loop, they die instantly. On top of that newer players struggle to see stealth killer, so they get completely destroyed.
I completely understand where its coming from. Im playing with two players which "only" have 100-200 hours and killer like Ghostface, Pig or Myers are completely op for them. Other killer with weird counterplay mechanics like Houndmaster or Pinhead are also a problem. The gap between experienced players and newer/weaker player is just hard to breach without making one side suffer.
For Myers: prerunning makes it easy, dont shy away from dropping pallets (i see so many matches where good pallets never get dropped, for what? For the next game?), throw windows in the mix. Its kinda similar to Bubba. Stronger, but on a timer.
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In the end it comes down to chase time (simplified bc things like location, etc., but i digress).
And yes, some killer cant down fast enough in theory to stop those 3 gens. But you can always choose one of the strong killer. And mostly you dont need them against the average survivor to have short chases.
With a fast down you could prefer to get an important gen down with doubling.
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Sadly there is no real common knowledge. A lot of the players dont even know the basics.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074095#Comment_4074095
I don't really like hens that much so i'm not going to comment on any tests or anything he has run. I don't want to get into it as i don't want to break forum rules.
As for exact map choices, i don't follow the scene that closely, mostly just lurk in discord, so i'm probably wrong about the exact maps and perks but i follow closely enough to see the philosophy behind their chocies. But the point is that the restrictions on survivor are much larger than the ones on killer because generally "no holds barred" against most killers is going to result in survivors winning.
Yes, correct. For most killer thats the case. But Nurse and Blight (soon nerfed anyway) are an exception. But yh there are still nerfs on both sides bc comp is a very clean (no rng/focus on skill expression) environment.
The point is (doesnt matter who did the tourney) that the best comp teams did hold a competition and it had interesting info. For example Fast Track was really strong, even when a lot of people on the forum say its not good.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073952#Comment_4073952
Even against blight and nurse survivors still have massive restrictions placed on them such as no duplicate perks, no duplicate items, and the anti-face camp is not allowed to be used. As for all the other killers there are other restrictions like, eliminating certain perks or playing on the killer's best map (I.E ghost face plays on lerys and nurse plays on midwich).
There are some restrictions on killer perks as well, but generally they are removing the more "RNG" type perks, as well as free aura reading like nowhere to hide which basically eliminates stealth as an option.
Perks in general (on both sides) are usually banned in comp to deal with RNG (which is bad for comp) or just completely eliminating an entire playstyle (like nowhere to hide) which makes it hard to have interesting games.
The game is a mess for comp in general TBH, too many unfun things that lead to skewing game balance too much.
Not all killer play on their best map. Only the weaker ones like Ghostface, Midwitch on Nurse would be a massacre.
But for the mainpoint: Hens no rule tourney highlighted which killer can deal with survivor on which map.
The results are not perfectly clear bc comp team strength varies + some comp player have little experience with things outside of the comp ruleset.
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@UnicornMedal said:
Slugging for hatch has to go. As far as I see it, hatch was implemented as an anti-bottleneck feature. They realized early on how much the trial changes once the ratio of living Survivors to unpowered generators shifts too far, so the hatch forgoes typical gameplay mechanics and moves the trial forward. For whatever reason, that was grossly misinterpreted to mean that the hatch is only for escapes and now it serves little to no purpose aside from an easily thwarted consolation prize (especially now that more trials end in abandons than hatch escapes). Getting to the point, I think bleeding out is actually less preferable to abandoning. Not only does it eat up more time, which is unfair, it also rewards the Killer by giving an audience. I think for this, hatch needs to be reworked instead.
Being able to pick yourself up from excessive slugging is also a good idea, though I don't love the amount of time it takes in this hypothetical. Having enough time to slug someone, start another chase and down that Survivor, then come back and hook the initial Survivor doesn't really do a lot for gameplay. Even if the Survivor does pick themselves back up, there's no defense for being downed yet again. So in that scenario, abandoning is also more attractive. If the numbers are adjusted and there is some buffer to prevent being downed again like when you're unhooked, I think this could work.
The time is that long bc it would otherwise take a lot of time to finetune this change. Its hard to gauge which timer is needed to not let survivor weaponize it.
But that aside it was not the point to be able to use it while a second survivor gets chased. It should only counter four-man-slugs/massive slugging. In your scenario the team needs to sent a survivor for the pick up. And thats completely fair. Otherwise slugging could be completely removed.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074052#Comment_4074052
Definitely.
I think that ties in with how Teams in DBD are inherently formed. It is this structure of team forming that prevents most matches from being true displays of highest skill vs highest skill.
If competitive ever wanted to solve this issue, they should inherently change how team formation works surrounding the killer part of the team and the survivor team in quite revolutionary waysYou can watch showcases (for example Hens), but they are kinda rare.
Even the rare public matches have many problems. Many comp teams, even on winstreaks, underestimate the opponent and will lose bc of that. And what makes comp survivor player extremely good is their experience. So they need time to adapt to the gameplay of the true killer main. They will never be at their full strength in the first encounter and a second will probably never happen. Depending on the killer some no restriction loadout could also make the match up quite unfair.
Making one-tricks more common in comp would be interesting for the viewer, but also kinda problematic for the teams. Its not easy to acquire such a deep roster and to manage it. Even with smaller teams there is often some drama between players. But that aside its not easy even as a killer-expert to acquire the neccessary macro-skills. So even if the killer master ends chases some seconds faster, a comp killer will get better results. So we would still see mostly one-tricks on strong chase killer like FallenArt. And even if you have a one-trick with strong macro knowledge, the opponents probably will ban the killer. Or they have nothing to do if the regulations dont allow the killer (not that important bc different tourneys with different regs) or the killer is too heavily bugged.
The best scenario would be more killer players per team (every top team started to use two killer player anyway), so they split the rooster more and have the time to adapt skills from true killer mains.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073206#Comment_4073206
Only if you see stealth as an option to never be found.
There is a wide chasm between 'never being found' and 'The killer will -always- find you'. It is ridiculous to set the standard to either extreme. If you get found through the killer's own ability to search, that's fine, it happens, but it was at least a contest of skill. If you're lit up like a christmas tree every 5 seconds, that's just the game deleting stealth.
Yes, time is the currency. It highly depends on the chase time. If its short, the hiding time is more valuable.
No, time is time. Someone occupying the killer for 30 seconds by hiding is just as valuable as someone occupying the killer with a 30 second chase.
Old stealth kinda only was fine bc the majority of people didnt do it or they couldnt do the chase part.
Old stealth was completely fine in general and only stopped being fine once killers were no longer required to search for survivors themselves. Then that became the standard.
Kinda interesting question: would you use no mither if it blocks all aura read and trade your chase against stealth?
It'd at least make the perk interesting, but I have a question in turn: Why do you suggest here that a sufficiently skilled survivor should not be permitted to use both stealth and chase?
Yes, if he keeps doing it. Would work with a full stealth team. But most killer just abandon the search and chase the other three. It also happens with good loopers, but they can atleast do the gen in the killers face and dont waste time hiding if he comes close.
He has to keep doing it, otherwise that survivor is going to be uncontested on gens.
Then it would be still only 1/4 to stop every aura perk. Its already a tie if the killer only chooses one aura perk. 1/4 and killer need to fear that a complete perk category is useless. And even one player could use it to call out every aura perk.
That's the standard risk of stacking perks. It's the same as bringing Botany + Desperate Measures + Empathic Connection and going up against Plague.
You put all your eggs in one basket, sometimes you get good results, sometimes you don't.
It would be great if tunneling gets fixed. Im just saying as someone who doesnt want to tunnel if i play killer, i got forced to tunnel bc of hiding teammates.
You're never 'forced' to tunnel. This idea that a hiding survivor means you -must- go for someone else is another consequence of aura reading escalation. Survivors hiding wasn't a problem before aura reading got out of control, but now that killers get used to being given survivors' exact locations, suddenly looking for survivors yourself is too much of an ask.
- I think thats the point where we need to agree to disagree. Bc i dont think that the killer sees you all the time. There are only some addons like Plagues Black Incense which are problematic.
- You misunderstood me. Well, it wasnt that clear. I meant that if you have a killer which ends chases faster aura is more valuable. But if you have bad chase, a perk that shortens the time of the chase or gives you you more time in general, is more valuable. NtH is exceptionally bad against prerunning.
- Why is it fine if dbd is all about time? If you can stealth without drawbacks the killer loses a lot of additional time. And you can use stealth and chase together. I do it all the time. Its just not 100% safe.
- There will always be an uncontested survivor on the gen. Its 1vs4. Thats a trap for beginner player. Like survivor can only loop to delay the down, the killer player can only delay the gens. Either the killer kills all survivor fast enough or the gens get done. The chess-matches are a thing of the past. Its only possible if one side vastly outskills the other. With that said a killer is perfectly fine letting one survivor stay on gens. If its the same one, hook stages wont be split on 4 players. Better even if the surv stops the gen if the TR gets close.
- If Plague would have a higher pickrate those perks would be dead and nobody would bring them. Distortion only got nerfed bc it became popular. Thats just how DBD is. Many problematic things last a long time bc almost nobody uses it and nobody complains.
- Thats not true. I think we both play for a long time and most survivor just dont bother hiding. Searching for a hidden aurvivor is just a time waste and a bad play. Its only worth it if its the one dead-on-hook-guy, back to the tunneling. That said about how much time are we even talking about? How much killer-time did you waste in an average match before the changes?
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@Lexilogo said:
Bleeding out faster in the 2v1 is a good option to have, though I think I'd prefer some wider rework to the 2v1 situation so it doesn't boil down into both Survivors waiting for the other to die.
For full on slugging, I think the issue is more so Survivors lacking agency. Waiting for 75 seconds is still quite a while and against a slugger there's a good chance you will go down again pretty soon.
Maybe Survivors could get skillchecks for self-pickup, and once their recovery meter is 99'd, they have a higher crawl speed?
The change for full on slugging is less about making it more interesting for survivor. That is kinda hard to balance bc survivor can also force slugging situation. So its quite difficult to find the right middle ground. The change (bc its only a simple one) is more about stopping some killer from even trying to win through slugging. But to be fair i rarely see this playstyle anymore, so maybe it doesnt matter anymore.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072545#Comment_4072545
The killer uses on perk slot to weaken one of the survivor skills.
'Weaken' is an understatement for this perk. Chase perks don't instantly end chases. Regression perks don't set a gen to 0. NTH just completely undoes any attempt at stealth.
The value is that he spend less time searching. But that wont win them the game
Yes it will. Time is literally the currency of victory for both sides. Being able to cut out all time spent actually having to find a survivor is going to make a significant difference.
Now you need to decide if its a good time to stealth
In the presence of these perks, it is never a good time to stealth, since stealth requires investment on the survivor side, and these perks turn the pay-off from being in the survivors' favour, to the killer's. Stealth usually means being caught out of position for the start of a chase, so if these perks are in play, not only does stealth not work, it actually benefits the killer.
Not taking aggro.
If the killer spends time looking for a survivor they can't find, that's helping the team in much the same way taking a chase would.
Killer wasting time searching. If its too much, its far easier to stay on the obvious location: the hooked survivor. Thats why tunneling killer dont bother with NtH, its pointless for their playstyle.
I'll double back on this one with a later point…
The value of perks. The killer has only 4 slots. Having one perk hard-countering it, is a bit much. You could mix it with perks like self preservation, but suddenly you need to sacrifice more perk slots. And it is/was always a gamble. Both sides dont know what the other side will bring and if they get value of their perk build.
Except that one perk didn't hard-counter it for anyone but the person running it, meaning that it'd be 1/4 of both sides' loadout in order to be fully negated.
Not wanted gameflow. Its highly subjective (or the devs have data to back it up), but the decision was that the catch-game is more interesting than hide-and-seek.
And this is kind of hypocritical with regards to the earlier remark about tunnelling. If tunnelling was a problem, it'd get fixes. It'd get addressed. But given that it's been buffed repeatedly as well, apparently it's not a problem, barring one exception: When it can be used as an excuse to nerf something on the survivor side.
The double whammy here is that the worst version of stealth is still there, ratting is still possible by just using lockers. The only thing these changes have done is make it harder for someone to contribute while playing stealthy. In other words: In their efforts to fix stealth being uninteresting, they made it more uninteresting.
- Only if you see stealth as an option to never be found. You still forcing the killer to kick the gen. Its the same like beginner wirh bamboozle. They are so predictable that i get a headstart to the other side of the map. The value depends on the killer traversal speed.
- Yes, time is the currency. It highly depends on the chase time. If its short, the hiding time is more valuable. Thats why stealth against a nurse is more important. But thats only a problem with "bad" stealth. Sometimes its the right play to take the risk, but mostly you shouldnt risk getting caught of position for stealth. Lets say you circumvent it with SB and you are a good looper. You get the time for stealth + normal chase time. So the killer spends a lot of time until he gets to hook you. Should that be the normal benchmark? Old stealth kinda only was fine bc the majority of people didnt do it or they couldnt do the chase part. Kinda interesting question: would you use no mither if it blocks all aura read and trade your chase against stealth?
- There are good times. I use stealth all the time. For example if the killer hooks near me and i should go for the unhook. You can even "test" for aura perks with "safer" stealth near a pallet and then go for riskier stealth afterwards.
- Yes, if he keeps doing it. Would work with a full stealth team. But most killer just abandon the search and chase the other three. It also happens with good loopers, but they can atleast do the gen in the killers face and dont waste time hiding if he comes close.
- Then it would be still only 1/4 to stop every aura perk. Its already a tie if the killer only chooses one aura perk. 1/4 and killer need to fear that a complete perk category is useless. And even one player could use it to call out every aura perk.
- It would be great if tunneling gets fixed. Im just saying as someone who doesnt want to tunnel if i play killer, i got forced to tunnel bc of hiding teammates.
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The rework doesnt make sense. The core is completely fine, even if he will never be one of the strongest killer. But he should be atleast good at his job.
His setup time is far too long. (collecting traps takes ages). The traps are too visible on many maps and are simply used to block pallets/windows. And the reward for trapping someone is almost zero if you are not close.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I would agree, Blighted Crow and Rat should be looked at. But they should wait to see what the Token Reduction on Pallet Break will do first before potentially overnerfing Blight.
(The movement speed reduction will not do much, since it will only affect bad Blight players)
But thats probably their point. They want to remove bad Blight players.
For example Billy and Kaneki are both strong killer, but most people only complain about Kaneki. A good Billy will probably destroy the survivors even faster, but they are rare. And survivor get to enjoy playing against bad Billy.
So if their goal is to reduce complaints, it will probably do a lot.
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Honestly i dont think its really strong. With killer like Ghostface i had some of the easiest matches, but also one of the hardest. In my experience he is a killer which really highlights the experience of your opponents.
That said im always interested in new strats and i have seen quite some special playstyles which make a weaker killer shine.
Do you maybe have gameplay?
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072600#Comment_4072600
I mean the new player experience with dbd is always bad regardless lol. And sadako does not need buffs. Having no cooldown on her traversal at the moment is mental. I seriously doubt that flashlight bully squads getting 4kd is the reason for inflated killer killrates, they are annoying to play alongside but they not exactly common enough to mess with larger statistics
@Lorelei_Albrecht_TTV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072602#Comment_4072602
Well I for one don't think people should be able to reset their condemn mid chase for example. You didn't pay attention and got caught out of position you should die ya know. So reverting the time it takes to interact with the tv's and reworking the iri tape to make her power work like it used to (if you don't know survivors used to lose their tape when you hit them with an m1). Also she should be 4.8 because she currently has zero chase presence..
Sadako has the problem of a noob stomper. You cant buff her easily without making it more miserable for new players.
But her traversal is not that strong. Her ability has no cooldown, but the TVs have. Its incredibly easy to keep the tv near your gen shut down and reduce her teleport value by a lot.
Buffing condemned again is not the best way. Condemned sadako was a pain to play against and destroyed every weak player with little to no effort from the killer.
She should have a better chase, but more movement is far too easy to use and would affect weaker players more, while it wouldnt be good enough against good players. Best case would a skillful chase ability, like using the invisible time, but that is hard to implement.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072170#Comment_4072170
For two because Weave is almost unusable without franklins
But not the other way around.
You waste franction of time compare to killer who wasted just two perkslots for one thing that wont happen
The killer wastes no time. Your timewaste is what he gets out of his perks, on top of you having no items anymore, on top of you not being able to hide in that area anymore. That's still plenty of value.
It removes hinding if you dont go away from gen as new megs that ear killer terror radius so they leave but than again the main part the game is build on are chases not hinding so I dont think its broken because there are many perks that counter hiding so this kind of argument falls off.
Just because you personally don't care about that gameplay element doesn't mean it's not a thing. Just because it's not the only problem on the block, doesn't mean it isn't one.
If you compare insta BNP to aura perk
No, you did. You compared NTH to something that just auto-downs a survivor as some kind of argument for it not being a problem.
only thing that holds it is its strong effect.
Yes, its strong effect.
Some might say its 'overly strong' effect.
It'd be a better perk if it had a weaker effect but was more reliable, no?
BBQ doesnt give you just info about who is 40 meters from hook away you miss this perk entire value here which tells me you dont play killer much do you, it gives you info about all survivors if they are in hook range or if they are far away from hook which can help killer to make his decision on where he will stay or patrol or run off this is what many people miss just like you did
Except it doesn't do that. Because BBQ announces when it is going to fire and gives survivors the opportunity to counterplay it.
Sure, you could assume that every aura you DON'T see is within the 40 meter radius.
But you can't be sure of that because lockers exist. And unlike with Floods of Rage, survivors get a heads-up display element that tells them when BBQ is about to fire, which means they can actually opt to use those lockers.
If you don't see an aura, it's -possible- that there's a survivor near you. But it's certainly not guaranteed.
Even if you were to assume that your guess is accurate 100% of the time, you are still left with an area with a diameter of 80 meters in which the survivor can be hiding. And unlike with the other problem aura perks, BBQ will tell you nothing more. You will have to find them yourself, as the perk won't simply tell you their exact location.
And doesnt NTH have warning too? Like when killer is kicking gen which is loud and can be seen or super easily predicted if he is oing it often (because he runs this perk obviously or maybe oppression), survivors dont know when is their teammate about to get hooked that greatly its there but its not that super clear especialy for soloq where many just dont even know where killer got down and where to look at on screen to expect that few seconds for hook aura of their teammate.
Accusing me of not knowing how a perk works from the killer side, but are you seriously unaware that survivors can see when their teammate is being picked up? And barring the one exception of a killer going a piggy-back build, if a survivor is being picked up, they're about to be hooked. That's a lot of forewarning that BBQ gives that NTH and FoR do not.
These perks take someones hand as many other does they are info perks so logicaly even for 13 old they will help you in where you can have no clue where someone is
No, this is where the critical distinction lies.
BBQ tells you where to LOOK for someone. NTH, FoR, WA tell you where someone IS.
BBQ gives you clues, NTH, FoR, WA tell you the answer straight-up.
BBQ gives you a general area that you will have to search with your own eyes and skills, while NTH, FoR and WA remove all requirement for any competency in that field.
BBQ is a tool to help you in your job. NTH, FoR and WA just take your hand and do your job for you.
That is the problem distinction. That is why the latter perks are the death-knell of stealth, while BBQ is completely fine.
Floods are way harder to activate than pain res
They have the exact same activation requirement.
if it was I believe devs would already touched that perk
If you still have faith in BHVR, you must be really new here.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072387#Comment_4072387
But thats not the point. Its not about going unseen the entire match.
It's not about going unseen because this perk precludes that completely. It's a total shutdown of an entire playstyle that became the new standard to such an ingrained extent that another perk had to be nerfed to make room for it.
Its not a total shutdown. But yes, it makes stealth in a specific situation almost useless. Its a common situation, but otherwise it would be not worth bringing. Like with darkness revealed for example you get barely results on most maps.
The killer uses on perk slot to weaken one of the survivor skills. Like chase perks weaken loops or regression perks the ability to progress gens.
The value is that he spend less time searching. But that wont win them the game (except its a nurse and they play outside of the dbd rules). But it wont help finding the reset in a no gen area, someone stealthing for unhook or even the hiding two-hook-target if hes not near a gen.
Those perks remove the simple part of stealthing. Now you need to decide if its a good time to stealth and you need to trade your location for progressing a gen.
But why did they make stealth so situational? It was hardly a meta choice, maybe in the Blendette-era. If someone only wants to loop, why cant someone only stealth? Being able to stealth 100% has many problems and maybe you disagree with me on that:
- Not taking aggro. Even if you progress gens, the risk of losing a teammate early is greatly increased if only three survivor get chased
- Killer wasting time searching. If its too much, its far easier to stay on the obvious location: the hooked survivor. Thats why tunneling killer dont bother with NtH, its pointless for their playstyle.
- The value of perks. The killer has only 4 slots. Having one perk hard-countering it, is a bit much. You could mix it with perks like self preservation, but suddenly you need to sacrifice more perk slots. And it is/was always a gamble. Both sides dont know what the other side will bring and if they get value of their perk build.
- Not wanted gameflow. Its highly subjective (or the devs have data to back it up), but the decision was that the catch-game is more interesting than hide-and-seek.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071966#Comment_4071966
No they don't. You can't leave the NTH radius without making scratch marks, you can't prepare for a Floods of Rage unless you're on comms with the person doing the unhooking.
The big distinction that made these perks in particular break the status quo is that BBQ & Chili does NOT work on anyone too close to the killer. It specifically has a stipulation that permits survivors to still hide. NTH and Floods of Rage in particular do not permit that at all. If you're anywhere near the killer when it pops, too bad. Sucks to be you, I guess.
You could use a locker against NtH. Sometimes you cant, but then you cant avoid BBQ either.
But thats not the point. Its not about going unseen the entire match. Its about countering the effects. Reducing the value. You can sneak away and start running when the killer starts kicking. (It wont work on some maps against Nurse bc she just blinks through two walls and one ceiling...)
Same with FoR. You cant stop it from activating in chase or while the killer is near you. But you can stealth near a pallet or juke a mindgame if you know the killer sees you. Sometimes you will pay the knowledge with a hit, but that doesnt make those perks op. They have value same like BBQ.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071919#Comment_4071919
I'm not sure I see the link between being revealed before the chase starts, and that reveal making being downed too quick.
If the aura read isn't active during the chase, surely the time to down would be completely unaffected? It might cut out time searching for survivors, but good killers aren't going to be searching for survivors regardless of aura reads being in play, they're going to be tracking + heading straight for survivors.
Looping itself isn't really affected by aura reading as a class because only a handful of aura perks actually activate during chase, and most of those have been in the game for a while, like I'm All Ears. The perks actually being cited in these conversations, like BBQ, Nowhere To hide, Friends Til The End, etcetera, these aren't the chase aura perks and shouldn't be affecting your chases outside of making them start sooner than they might otherwise have.This is why I don't personally see the need for hard limits on aura reading as a mechanic, because it really isn't having that kind of impact overall. Individual perks can be tuned down, for sure, but as a class aura reading is in a pretty good spot- all I'd really suggest is more counter-pick perks for people who care about them, but it's not as though you need to counter-pick aura perks. You can do just fine by running general chase perks or information perks of your own, or just by reacting when the killer comes for you.
The problem is they are playing a completely different game. Many good survivor wont care to hide or will hide in a safe place (pallet/with sb/etc.)
They will realize an aura perk is in play and in the worst case they lost the prerun distance to the killer.
But bad/new player will hide in deadzones. They realize an aura perk is in play after they give a free hit and cut the chase in half. Sometimes they dont even realize it was an aura perk and fall for it again or dont know which one. Worse some hear the tr and hide in a locker. Decent killer count 1 and 1 together and search the locker near the aura reveal (or even see the locker animation with NtH).
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071952#Comment_4071952
The killer is meant to be the hunter, it's meant to have info to lead it to it's next target.
And that's fine for stuff like BBQ & Chili, and it's basekitted via crows, scratch marks, gen noises, etc.
The problem is that with stuff like Floods of Rage, Weave Attunement and particularly Nowhere to Hide, it doesn't 'provide info to lead to the next target', it just attaches a giant neon sign to the survivor going 'HERE THEY ARE!'
Game was never designed around the killer not ever having to look for survivors. The later generations of aura perks simply do all the work.
Thats not really true. More for Wesve Attunement, but it announces itself atleast.
Floods of Rage and NtH are pretty similar to BBQ. (Floods has kinda the same activation requirement with needing to hook). They have clear activation condition, active timer and counters. The hard part is to figure out if the killer has it (same goes for BBQ).
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@HoodedWildKard said:
The game already kind of does that. When you use the buy level function on the bloodweb it shows you have many bloodpoints its takes to reach the next prestige. And the number doesn't really change. It's usually about a million points per prestige.
Its even better. It shows you exactly how much BP you need for every Prestige and level. For example: if you are P7 Level 23 and want to reach P10 you can just add 128 level (50 for every Prestige) and it works. You could even check how much you need to P100.
Important to note: those values are higher than the most efficient manual leveling.
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A disguise killer would be a bit silly against an swf.