Stabby_Widdershins
Stabby_Widdershins
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@InvadeGames said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300113#Comment_3300113
no, i saw a whole thing. You made a suggestion that cheapens every success and failure that happens for both sides.
"oh i finally got a down after a 60-120 second chase against a survivor" goes from " whew i got a bit of pressure off me" to "what was the point of even doing the chase? they are back in 10 seconds(or 20)"
Its a bad idea. Least as far as dead by daylight goes. but you suggested a whole other game entirely, not the one that I and everyone else spent money on.
You missed the 'Will require balancing' part to fixate on the '10-20 seconds' part.
The 'require balancing' means the respawn timer could be shorter, or longer, as needed to keep the gameplay fun and still give the Killer a chance to win while not screwing over Survivors.
Hence you being fixated on one part to talk down to me instead of doing what any normal person would do by thinking 'Hey! How does the idea look AS A WHOLE instead of nitpicking parts that can change?'
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@InvadeGames said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300100#Comment_3300100
then make a suggestion that isnt clearly weighted towards a zero risk game for survivors.
I did. You have just chosen to fixate on a single flaw that requires you to ignore that it's a concept that would require balancing.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300098#Comment_3300098
Yet which one is currently more prevalent? We have seen a total of 1 swat gen rush vs 1/2 the killers we've faced tunneling a poor fool despite trying to take agro (can't take agro better than literally standing in a doorway at lery's). In addition, you literally need a whole build on multiple survivors too gen rush while as killer to tunnel...you follow a single person till they die. No real necessary parts except being better than that specific survivor.
Both need addressed but you seem dead set on not seeing the survivor side.
I see both sides, unlike people who's suggestions are 'Make the game FORCE the Killer to play badly' or 'Add something Survivors can abuse'.
Once more, I will ask: Why is it OK for Survivors to play optimally, but Killers playing optimally is a cardinal sin?
It's a double standard. Survivors are allowed to tryhard, but Killers tryharding is evil and 'unfun'.
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@InvadeGames said:
this was a serious suggestion? lol.
That would be an absolutely terrible game. and gens would get done even earlier than now with a 10 second "penalty" to survs. kills wouldnt be satisfying. chases wouldnt be satisfying. escaping wouldnt be satisfying. this WOULD kill the game.
"The pressure goes from 'Hook' to 'Kill'. Survivors are unable to do gens while dead, and they can't respawn 'nearly immediately' since I even said there's a time limit before they can manually respawn."
They cant do gens while hooked or slugged and for potentially much longer than 10 or 20 seconds. and yes. 10-20 seconds respawn is NOTHING and would apply no pressure whatsoever.
a survivor eliminated and 3 survivors left is actual pressure. I doubt you gave this any actual thought but just got salty you died in a match.
Your problem is that you're apply the idea to gen times as the game is written, rather than seeing it with everything balanced for the idea.
And no; I did not make it because I was 'salty', but have fun with your ad hominem just because you don't like it.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300084#Comment_3300084
Lets put it this way. If efficient causes unfun for survivors, there's less prey. If there's less prey, then killers will either have to switch to survivor or have no prey. If they switch and become fed up with unfun efficient play, they bail and the cycle repeats until death of game. If there's no prey we assume you know what happens.
True people should understand that it's a PvP game and can't dictate the other side, but some things NEED to be addressed for the sake of health and fun of the game.
Lets put it this way. If efficient causes unfun for survivors, there's less prey. If there's less prey, then killers will either have to switch to survivor or have no prey. If they switch and become fed up with unfun efficient play, they bail and the cycle repeats until death of game. If there's no prey we assume you know what happens.Let's put it this way; You start controlling how a Killer can win based on something subjective like 'fun', then there will be less Killers. If there's less Killers, then Survivors will either have to switch to Killer or have no matches. If they switch and become fed up with unfun, inefficient play, they bail and the cycle repeats until the death of the game. If there's no Killers, we assume you know what happens.
Works both ways. If Killers start losing because the game literally forces them to spread out kills while Survivors can genrush like cheetahs on crack, thereby preventing there from being ENOUGH TIME to 3-hook everyone (which, BTW, against a skilled Survivor team; It's literally impossible to 3 hook everyone & still get more than 1 or 2 kills), then they will stop playing because there's NO POINT in playing a game where they can't play their hardest, and then EDC is filled with insults because they lost.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299802#Comment_3299802
The goal of your survivors is still the same. Do gens and leave. Putting a survivor on hook is the best pressure a killer can get because it's tying up at least two survivors from doing gens. In your bizzare DBD survs can just respawn themselves nearly immediately so there's no pressure on anyone to do anything but bang out gens. Killer would literally never win this mode unless the timer were incredibly restrictive like 4-5 minutes.
Even then the killer is not the oppositional force, it's the timer. It's like you want killer players to be set dressing more than something that influences the flow of the game.
It's a concept. I did not actually sit down and pencil out the match limit, but yes; There will need to be a time limit overall that allows for escape if the Survivors play well, but they can still lose if the Killer plays well. And yes; gen times would have to be adjusted.
The pressure goes from 'Hook' to 'Kill'. Survivors are unable to do gens while dead, and they can't respawn 'nearly immediately' since I even said there's a time limit before they can manually respawn.
The point was to make moris more fun, and allow Killers to have fun killing, while addressing every major complaint in the game.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298330#Comment_3298330
Give killers a basekit mini BBQ that shows one survivor AND give them a speedboost as long as they move in the general direction of that survivor and aren't in any chase. The beauty of the old BBQ was that everyone had it equipped for the BP bonus and, as if by accident, the main portion of its effect showed killers all kinds of opportunities and thus peeled them away from the hook.
The speed boost would be needed to sweeten the deal of chasing after some survivor, and to give non-mobility M1 killers an opportunity to do so without shooting themselves in the foot.
In the same stroke, BHVR could do something to punish tunneling, like if you tunnel someone and try to hook them within 45s of them getting off the hook there is a 33% chance that The Entity itself sabotages a hook. Not totally invalidating it, but enough to make going for someone else the correct choice.
Of the carrot and the whip, the first one is the more effective one, and people will react much more favorable to it, while the whip will often make them stubbornly stay in their old ways, just to "stick it to them!".
In the same stroke, BHVR could do something to punish tunneling, like if you tunnel someone and try to hook them within 45s of them getting off the hook there is a 33% chance that The Entity itself sabotages a hook. Not totally invalidating it, but enough to make going for someone else the correct choice.- And...SWFs would start bringing the same cosmetics in order to get free Sabos.
- And what happens if the Killer just happens to find the same Survivor? It happens to me ALLOT; I don't tunnel, but sometimes a Survivor just has bad luck. Should I be punished, again, for trying to win, just because I found the same guy?
Once again; Why should Killers be punished AT ALL for trying to win just because Survivors have this deep-seated need to control HOW Killers win?
I'll put it another way:
If Survivors are not punished for playing gens effectively; Why should Killers be punished for killing effectively?
You can't demand one side get a middle finger to their gameplay just because some people don't understand that, in a PvP game, one side winning means the other side loses.
All 'Punish camping' boils down to is 'Punish Killers for playing too well because Survivor fun is more important.'
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300056#Comment_3300056
We believe it's due to disrespect
There was nothing disrespectful in it. I went over every point made without so much as a harsh word.
Edit: And the post is back. Guess I hit some sort of timer due to editing repeatedly to fix errors. My B.
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I...made an entire post, then edited it to fix some typos, and it disappeared?
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300041#Comment_3300041
Okay so you are not understanding and clearly come from a position of zero empathy for others.
To reiterate in my final response - as killer you are in a position you can deny your opponent the ability to play the game, this is not necessary as I win most of my matches not resorting to these tactics. You are excusing disregard for others as if you have no alternative but this is just excusing either a lack of skill, a lack of empathy, or both.
Survivors are defenceless against this, so the game should make it so tunnelling people out of the game is so detrimental it isn't worth doing.
You don't have to do this to win, you just choose to.
Anyway, you clearly do not understand this so there is little point replying further. However clearly the community has had enough and the declining survivor numbers in the queue suggest something drastically needs to change. So hopefully you will be forced to play in an empathetic way, even if you lack any empathy.
Okay so you are not understanding and clearly come from a position of zero empathy for others.Ad hominem. I understand fine. You just don't want to be forced to think about the Killer's fun. Your mindset is 'Survivor's first, and screw Killers'.
"as killer you are in a position you can deny your opponent the ability to play the game"That's how Killers win. By removing Survivors. If this is a shock 6+ years into the game; I worry about you.
"this is not necessary as I win most of my matches not resorting to these tactics."Good for you. You're not everyone.
Survivors are defenceless against this, so the game should make it so tunnelling people out of the game is so detrimental it isn't worth doing.Translation: Killers should have harder matches because Survivors don't like losing.
You don't have to do this to win, you just choose to.Survivors don't have to rush gens as fast as possible; They can find bones. Yet NoED is vilified for taking them off gens. WEIRD how the burden for Survivor fun is literally the Killer's responsibility no matter what.
however clearly the community has had enough and the declining survivor numbers in the queue suggest something drastically needs to changeAh yes, the old 'Survivors ain't happy, so the game is dying' doom-screaming. Weird how, when Killers claimed the game was dying because of DS and the like, they were called out.
But when SURVIVORS screech because Killers are just trying to win; it's proof the game is dying and Killers need to be punched in the mouth with balance changes that literally control how they can play to make Survivors happy.
Double standards.
So hopefully you will be forced to play in an empathetic way, even if you lack any empathy.More ad hominem responses. It's not that I lack empathy, it's that I don't expect my opponent to play badly to make me happy. Because I'm aware that I am not entitled to a certain amount of 'fun' before I lose.
You could say I'm empathizing with my opponents drive to win in a PvP game, so long as they are not cheating.
But, at the risk of you screaming even more about my 'lack of empathy'; MY OPPONENT IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR MY FUN.
- Killers don't need to ignore me if I'm the easy target.
- Survivors don't need to ignore gens if I don't have any kills.
But it's always 'Killers should be punished for tunneling' and never 'Survivors should be punished for rushing gens'. Which means it's a dishonest argument that is actually demanding Killers stop trying to win if it makes Survivors sad š„.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300031#Comment_3300031
Except you are conducting yourself in an unnecessary way that ruins the experience for your opponent.
The fact you would even attempt to argue that being tunnelled out of the game is not objectively unfun shows a bad faith argument. I mean, are you suggesting people subjectively enjoy being tunnelled out of the game lmao?!
The problem is people will conduct themselves in ways that ruin the experience for others and as killer you are in a unique position to do this where your opponent is powerless to do anything about it. This needs to be addressed and clearly there is a demand for more deterrents for tunnelling people out of the game.
You have a complete disregard for the other humans in the game you are playing. You can have no empathy but the game should not facilitate or even reward this. Period.
Once again; you're ignoring everything to claim the ONLY reason people tunnel is to 'ruin fun' and call it 'unnecessary'.
Why is it people whining about tunneling cannot admit that the Killer is PLAYING TO WIN, just like Survivors? Oh, right; because it invalidates their entire 'Tunneling is unnecessary & only trolls do it' argument.
What you fail to realize, or ignore to make your own bad faith argument, is that Killers are ALSO human beings who want to have fun & want to win. But apparently Survivor fun comes first, so Killers should be forced to stop doing anything Survivors don't like (Like tunneling, slugging, and camping).
Why don't we take the logic one step further? Survivors don't like Doctor. Or Nurse. Or Legion. They also don't like NoED and other 'crutch' perks and Killers. So why not let Survivors pick who the Killer uses & what perks they use? I mean, since Survivor 'fun' is so paramount that Killers need player agency removed in-match by punishing them for trying to win...sorry, for 'tunneling'.
So why not just let Survivors pick who the Killer can USE, since they're already deciding they are the authority in what the Killer can DO?
Bet that would make all the Survivors happy. They'd finally have their 'fun'.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300011#Comment_3300011
Except being tunnelled out of the game is objectively unfun, this isn't even a debate at this point.
The problem is the game makes this a viable tactic and those who lack skill or have no empathy for the other side can do this without any penalty. It really is as simple as that.
I play a lot of killer and I never tunnel or camp yet I still win 90% of my matches, so I don't buy these tales of woe from people who try to justify knowingly making the match miserable for others to suit themselves.
No, it's not 'as simple as that' because you're ignoring that you're asking the Killer to be punished for playing optimally & trying to win. You're literally making the game harder for one side based on the whining of their opponents.
You're boiling it down to 'Survivors not having fun, so change it' while ignoring the Killer aspect and how the Killer is ALSO trying to win. The complaint is 'Survivor not having fun, so make the game harder for Killers. No one cares about their fun.'
I also don't care what you play or how. How you play has no bearing on how others play, and the game should not be balanced around how you play, or how you think every other Killer should play.
I will say it again, since people seem to ignore this: Saying "Punish Killers for the vague accusation of 'tunneling'." is nothing more than saying "Make it harder for Killers to win by imposing rules based on Survivor's subjective ideas of 'fun."
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299985#Comment_3299985
See you can say that all you want but at the end of the day you are playing against other humans and if you don't consider how you interact with them, don't complain at all if they decide they do not want to stay in that match with you and you can't get a normal game.
I am not actually telling you how to play, what I am proposing is that people who do engage in very unfun tactics that ruin the game for others should suffer heavy penalties for engaging in those tactics. The game currently makes it far too easy for people to ruin matches for others and this needs to be changed.
Anyone who has been repeatedly tunnelled out of the game knows how much this ruins the experience, so if people are aware of the misery their tactics inflict on others and still do it, then the devs need to step in and create deterrents.
'Unfun' is subjective. On top to that; no they should not be punished because they made you sad. To work back around to my Overwatch statement; That would be like me saying 'Anyone playing Widowmaker should be punished because sniping is an unfun tactic for me. I don't get to play if I'm sniped'.
You are, 100%, telling people how to play. You are saying Killers need to be punished or have their hands tied with mechanics that force them to play sub-optimally because you, personally, don't like tunneling. That is telling people they can't tunnel because of your subjective opinion. That is telling people how to play.
I mean, how DARE your opponent remove the weakest link to slow down gen speeds! Don't they know that Survivors don't like being removed from the game!? Why don't the devs just remove killing, because Survivors want to have FUN, and who cares if the Killer is not having fun by being forced to play catch-up the entire match because Survivors don't want to bumped out! Only Survivor fun matters!
If you can't accept your opponent trying to win within the rules of the game; Don't play PvP games. They're clearly not your cup of tea if you need to demand the devs invent punishments and rules to control how your opponent plays to make you happy. It's like saying 'People who play Eddie Gordo in Tekken are button mashers. This is not fun and is skillless. People who play Eddie Gordo should be blocked from playing ranked. I'm not trying to tell people how to play, but they are ruining the fun for others.'
News flash: Losing is not as fun as winning. Making punishments based on 'what about MY fun?' is nothing more than saying 'Make it easier for me to win/Make it harder for my opponent to win.'
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
Okay, so create a completely new game that is not Dead by Daylight. That's what you are saying.
Well, it would fix the major complaints.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299538#Comment_3299538
Because you are playing a game with others and everyone is entitled to play the game and have a good experience.
Just being bad at the game is no excuse to deny someone the ability to even play the game by constantly tunnelling them off hook and that should be punished harshly. Being bad at the game is no excuse for tunnelling off hook
Bad excuse. By that logic, I can tell people not to pick Widowmaker in Overwatch 2 because being sniped without being able to shoot back ruins my experience. Your excuse is 'something, something, what about my fun?'.
Your entitled to play the game within the rules of the game.
You're entitled to play a game without people cheating or insulting or threatening you.
You are Not entitled to tell your opponent they can't kill you because you don't want to lose yet.
You're not entitled to demand your opponent stop trying to win because losing makes you sad.
You are not entitled to play the game for an arbitrary length of time.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
How does a ten second timeout equate to ninety seconds on hook? Do you have any idea how pointless and unsatisfying it would feel as a killer to hit a surv twice only to see them back again 10s later? Over and over again? It'd feel absolutely Sisyphean. Like you're just doing nothing at all. Just watching moris a dozen times every match. And what do survivors do in ghost mode? Alt tab? There's apparently nothing else to do.
Whenever anyone suggests this(shocker, you are not the first) they also neglect the knock-on effects for every other perk in the game. A lot of them are focused around hooks and rescues. You're expecting BHVR to rework like half the perks in the game? They absolutely would not. What you're suggesting is less dead by daylight and more a new title entirely.
There's no need to equate a time-out to the hook timer, because the goal of the match changes. The Killer is no longer trying to get a win via killing everyone permanently; They get to watch all sorts of fun Moris and have the fun of chasing down & killing Survivors repeatedly to slow them down from doing gens.
And yes, I'm aware perks would need to change. The whole point was to find a gameplay loop that fixes the major complaints, not write out a detailed design document that rebalances 219 perks.
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@Blue94 said:
I'm sick and tired of tunnelling and it makes me not want to play, easiest way to fix tunnelling is literally make it so you cant hook the same person twice in a row, wouldn't be something that's hard to implement , still allowing the survivor to go down but not allowing them to be picked up until someone else has been hooked first
Ah, so that means the once-hooked Survivor can now bodyblock every chase I have because they are literally immune to being picked up, and any perks that pertain to being hooked again.
Edit: And if I down someone new, the hook-immune player bodyblocks to prevent pickup, or stands there with a flashy.
And when I down THEM to prevent a blocking/save, they crawl over the body of their friend while I am in weapon wipe animation, and now I can't pick up either of them because the pickup-immune is blocking the targeting so I can't get the pickup prompt on the proper person. š
Bad idea. Just accept that Killers will, and can, use any tactic that's not cheating or abusing bugs, and stop asking for the game to literally tie your opponent's hands behind their back for you.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298958#Comment_3298958
You know, it would not be a necessary evil if there were not the lowest common denominator in the form of players who will intentionally tunnel someone out at 5 gens...
I am increasingly seeing a killer tactic of chasing the first survivor they find until they get a down, which they will do even if it takes a stupid amount of time... then they just hard camp that survivor and wait for the unhook so they can hard tunnel them off the hook even if they could easily get a hook trade.
This most definitely should be punished hard
Why should it be punished?
Why should the Killer be forced to ignore the weakest link or play sub-optimally? Survivors aren't forced to ignore a 90% gen if the Killer has 0 hooks after 2-3 Gens pop.
So why should the Killer be forced to ignore easy kills? I mean, other than 'something, something, Survivor fun'.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
The amount of times someone is falsely accused of tunnelling is significantly smaller than the times a survivor is actually tunnelled, these days. Hell, I have more matches with hard tunnellers and campers than I have without.
Iām in the EU-West region, if that matters.
Nah. I get accused of tunneling, even if I go out of my way to not tunnel. Or camp. Or slug.
6+ years into DBD, and I still get Survivors unhooking 3 seconds after I hook someone, then screaming I tunneled or camped. Some people just believe the Killer is supposed to play nice because 'something, something, what about my fun?'
If I hit the same person more than once a match; someone is going to scream that I tunneled. If I go back to an unhook alert and see only one person? You can bet your bloodpoints I'm 'tunneling' if I don't walk away.
If I hook someone and don't walk across the map; I camped.
If I down someone and see their friend hiding nearby? Or if I just look around before picking them up? I slugged.
People, as a whole, seem unable to reflect on their own actions in a non-biased way. And this ratchets up in a competitive game. As in: You compete against your opponent(s) to win.
'I lost' turns into 'They must have cheated' or 'They must have used <insert 'unfair' tactic here>'.
FPS Example: 'They only won because they used a sniper. Dirty, cheap snipers'. Or, for DBD 'They only won because <insert any perk/killer/tactic you don't like for either side here>. So crutch.'