Sometimes_Sage
Sometimes_Sage
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- Sometimes_Sage
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Maybe you only cared about Dead Hard working against one-hit-powers, but most people also took issue with it having value even when used wrong, it having value even if not used at all, it forcing an extremely unfun playstyle, it leading to lose/lose situations at pallets and it countering pretty much every power with a wind-up. And it technically still can do most of those things, just not as consistently.
So basically you are complaining because BHVR listend to the wider community instead of you specifically.
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People are claiming that Dead Hard and Circle of Healing weren't issues. Honestly, what game were you playing?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379433#Comment_3379433
When you run thana they will be forced to heal or gens take 20% longer. Normally survivors would at least heal a bit to make sure thana doesn't kick in hard, but now they will have a hard time even keeping 1 survivor healed.
This extra time, combined with not having to deal with dead hard means you can probably dead zone a map before they can end the game.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Legion won't profit from the changes, but they will still be leagues below the likes of Nurse or Blight. Simply accepting the slowdown from Thanaphobia against Legion already is a thing and as I said, their big weakness remains.
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The interactions were neither fair nor fun, they were completely unjustified added weaknesses to two already struggling Killers and largely meaningless against Nurse.
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I doubt that Legion will become S-tier, their biggest weakness has always been turning injuries into downs, many Survivors didn't even bother to heal against them to begin with, so they won't benefit that much from the changes to healing.
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I love how Dead Hard is a nearly useless perk everyone with two braincells can easily counter, yet somehow sees use in almost every game, especially in high MMR.
I love how Dead Hard has a "counter" and that counter is "always be afraid of Dead Hard, assume everyone uses it, adapt your entire playstyle around it, waste time every single chase, pray that there is no pallet or vault or exit gate or hatch nearby, then you'll have a chance to "counter" it by having the Survivor use it wrong."
I love how Dead Hard 100% invalidates lunges and any power with a wind up.
I love how Dead Hard is justified because of Nurse, yet for some reason nobody campaigns to bring all Killers to Nurse's level, who apparently is the gold standard for balancing.
I'd also love to see what would be gonig on in these forums if any Killer perk would be as strong, oppressive and versatile as Dead Hard.
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I dislike NOED's general design idea, but since it's neither strong nor often used, it's not really an issue atm.
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I think the correct analogue here would be demanding the removal of the abillity to cancel an unhook attempt.
Regardless I'd gladly give up unhook grabs to be rid of Dead Hard.
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The "Dead Hard requires skill" argument is flawed.
Dead Hard requires skill in the sense that you have to get used to its timing, but the same is true for every timed mechanic in every game ever. Dead Hard is not some high skill tech only top tier players can use.
And besides even if you somehow manage to fail get used to a timing even the players at my potato MMR can pull of easily, you still get value out of Dead Hard because the mere threat of it's existance is enought to extent chases and stop Killers from lunging and challenging pallets.
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So reports don't do anything unless you also submit a support ticket with video evidence? Who in their right minds thought that would be workable?
No wonder toxicity is so rampant when there is no system in place to punish it; and even worse, players are mislead into thinking there is.
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Y'all crazy, the Steves are the ones who sabotage their team; Fengs are well meaning but overestimate themself.
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Regret would be to strong of a word, but it is noticeable that many Survivors teabag and BM even when you're playing nice as Killer, even if you do it to an obvious degree.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353475#Comment_3353475
Seriously, you run Dead Hard means you deserve to be tunneled now?
Dead Hard is strong but extremely unfun to go up against, tunneling is strong but extremly unfun to go up against; between a Dead Hard user and a tunneler neither has any ground to call out the other.
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I dodge when I get backfilled and I will continue to do so until the "backfilling overrides MMR" mechanic gets changed.
I also dodge SWF groups and I will continue to do so until some kind of anti-bully squad mechanic gets added.
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So people will continue to complain about problems that still haven't been adressed? How silly of them.
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I said it before and I will say it again, it is down right appalling that BHVR allowed the community to degrade to its current state and isn't even acknowledging the problem, let alone doing anything to fix it.
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I'd like something really otherworldy and surreal, a twisted dreamscape, think Salvador Dali meets Wayne Barlowe.
Eryie kinda goes into that direction, but I want something that goes all the way.
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Even if DH wouldn't be ridiculously strong, which is obviously is, the amount of hoops Killers have to jump through to play around it (even if the Survivor doesn't even use the perk) and how unfun and counterintuitive they are alone justify a fundamental change.
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A 69% kill rate would be nice.
Seriously, kill rate should be a metric at best, not a design goal.
Theoretically, you could give one side a massive buff, forcing the other side to adept a more "try hard" playstyle and have the kill rate remain constant while everyones experience suffers.
A 50 or 70% kill rate environment which allows for builds and playstyles which are fun for the user and fair for the opponent would be better for the game than reaching 60% through a meta which encourages a playstyle that ruins the fun for the other side, like we have right now.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326011#Comment_3326011
Quality of Life is the main aim of this feature - as i said, it might well be an overall buff to survivors, however knowing information and acting on information is a very different thing. which is why we will carefully monitor the situation.
A buff doesn't stop being a buff because some players are too bad to capitalize on their new advantage.
If you gave Killers the ability to see how far all Gens have been progressed, that would be a ridiculous buff, even if a portion of players would fail to act on the information
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Map selection shouldn't be a thing in a game that has blatantly one-sided maps, in fact blatantly one-sided maps shouldn't be a thing
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When playing Killer one should always take the wise words of Legion to heart: "Smartasses get killed. We always see to that"
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Survivor: Basekit Self-Care, remove Dead Hard
Killer: Basekit Spirit Fury, remove No One Escapes Death
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Anyone who thinks that Eruption should be nerfed without the meta surrounding it being adressed at the same time, or that Eruption's required adaptation from players is oppressive but Dead Hard's isn't, doesn't want balance but superiority.
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@Mandy said:
I'm not expecting things to change hugely tbh, I think QoL will be improved for our solo queue players, I don't think it will impact the kill rates too much however. We will of course be monitoring and seeing how much it impacts and whether changes would need to be made, on either side - as we always do.
How could a change that intends to bring solo Q in line with SWF not affect the game balance?
Also you are equating kill rate with Killer experience; if Killers end up having to play sweatier to compensate for the changes, the Killer experience, and in the long run also the Survivor experience, will suffer even if the kill rate remains stable.
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All of these are without Perks or Addons:
Wannabe-Survivor-Legion: Every time a Survivor vaults a pallet you have to activate Frenzy and vault the pallet too, then you have to deactivate Frenzy, this is the only situation in which you are allowed to use Frenzy. My record: 4K
Short-sighted-Myers: No stalking. You must abandon the chase if the Survivor leaves a tile. My record: 2K
Scary-Movie-Ghost Face: You can only go after a Survivor immediately after they reveal you. If a Survivor that you are chasing leaves your field of view while Night Shroud is up you have to activate it and abandon the chase. Must wear Scary Movie mask. My record: 3K
Fair-Share-Nemesis: Tentacle only. You can only hit an infected Survivor while all other Survivors are also infected. My record: 4K
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@LapisInfernalis said:
I say it in advance. I am a veteran player (with over5.6k hrs since 09/2018) so I might not understand you completely. Just because I learned to see things differently and might not ba able to imagine a pretty new player's view on the game anymore. But I try nontheless.
I completely understand your frustration regarding the fun of playing killer. Killer is a very stressful role, not gonna lie, and it has been for a long time. But it got better over the years. Sure there will always be mechanics that are annoying, but you can't always change that sadly. To be honest with you, getting camped or tunneled is also quite annoying and often feels unfair. I lost count of the matches where I got tunneled out of the match for no reason at all. Many times the answer is just "because i can" or "you genrush" or "you looked wrong at me" or similar even if I just wanted to play the game without having the goal to genrush in the first place. Many times I sat on a gen for maybe 10s before getting tunneled. Killers mostly (and sadly) don't care for your fun as well. Or have you ever had an insidious camping Bubba who cared for your fun? No.
When I play survivor (or killer), everything I can do, is to play and be fair to the other players. No tbags or flashlight clicks, no camping and tunneling when not necessary. Of course I bodyblock after I get unhooked, if the unhooker is injured. It would be dumb not to. But Endurance after unhooking only lasts for 10s and can be ignored if you can grab the person. And a tip for you: If someone shoves themselves in your face after getting unhooked, slugg them on the ground and wait a minute. They probably have DS and want to stick it in your back. Often you can get more pressure like this anyway. If I play kilelr I will tunnel or camp if gens fly, sure, but I can always be fair as long as the other side is fair. That's a rule I made for myself.
Getting stunned is annoying, especially if you are quite new to the game, but I can assure you that you get some sort of intuition after a while. Flashlights can (mostly) be avoided by looking against walls or faking a pickup and listening carefully for steps. Always be cautious if someone has a flashlight in your lobby. Pallet stuns are not that bad, and the "vacuum" pallet drop you can do (basically running through a pallet and dropping it last second, "vacuuming" you back to the pallet) is hard to forsee as killer.
And about the tbags at the exit gate.... well you have to learn to ignore it. I still get triggered by it sometimes, but usually I just walk away from the gate if I see them teasing me and do something else. EGC is just 2min long and I can wait that long if it means I don't have to see them spamming CTRL.
The current PTB aims to make the gap between soloq and swf smaller so killers and perks can be balanced around a basic amount of communication between survivors, which it currently is not.
I hope I could help you a bit.
Thank you for your reply, I really helps to hear that from someone who seems to see things from a similar perspective.
I am willing to accept the possibility of me just missing the big picture to see what is currently happening in context, but I still can't shake off the uneasy feeling. Tunneling and camping feel horrible for the receiving player, and I make sure to never do it against Survivors who play even remotely fair, but seeing those things that, unfun as they are, adressed before things that don't even fulfil any gameplay purpose like teabagging or bully squads, that I am on the receiving end of more often than not, still gives of an aweful first impression. It's not even that I take things like that to heart, I don't, but what I do take to heart is seeing that being constantly at each other throats seem to be the norm.
To me body blocking feels just as unfair as tunneling or camping (I spend a long time thinking that it was an exploit that would be fixed any day), so seeing people defending it while they ask for even harsher measures against tunneling makes me fear that toxicity, or at least what I personaly would consider toxicity, is simply accepted by the community. Maybe I am naive, but I think that there is a lot of room for mechanical improvements (not balance changes) that could make the game a better experience and less of an "us vs them" situation for all players, which would improve overall game feel in the long run and enable a healthier balancing philosophy.
Furthermore the fact that the current plan is to introduce more buffs into a meta that already can be summed up as "turbo gens vs infinite regress" and doing so in an "one side after the other" way makes me thing that it will get worse before it will get better.
Several people here have said that I just got a bad first impression and I want to believe that, but on the other hand I've also been told that I need to learn to overlook what I see as unacceptable, so I have mixed feelings.
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The only thing this image tells me is that Survivors shouldn't be able to block hooks by standing next to them.
Seriously, how can you do something like this to a player and come away thinking that you are the one wronged in the scenario?
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@Zeb89AceGamer said:
Hide endgame chat and play how you want
@DBD78 said:
Play both sides most survivor but as killer don't feel you have to win that is not good for your health. Play killer for fun and solo survivor to win. As soon as you start feeling you need a lot of slowdown perks, tunnel etc now you are trying to reach high MMR not good for your health as killer. Here is how you play DBD:
Solo survivor 80% of your games: Play to win, not stressful you don't feel bad dying it's the game man
Killer 20%: Play for fun but don't stress use fun perks and builds, you win some and lose some big deal, just have fun
When you go up against survivors or killer playing only to win "sweaty" just think "are they really having fun lol?" You are the winner of mental health when you don't care that much about losing, being tunneled, t-bagged these people are not happy people you are the happy one because you have more fun then they have 😀
@tortrader said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/360439/this-game-makes-me-sad
This is not a valid complaint. Turn off end game chat and play how you want. Be more mature.
@Rudjohns said:
I suggest you to stop caring too much about a videogame
Ah yes, the ol' reliable "it's your fault because you don't just ignore the harassment" argument, gotta love victim blaming.
Getting tunneled is obviously a bad time, but is is ridicilous to claim that encountering a Killer, who values their win over your fun, is on the same level as getting put into a match, with a group of people who got organised, communicate and coordinate, with the sole goal of harassing you, is on the same level.
Infact the percentage of games which don't have Survivors trying to harass the Killer is probably in the single digits and it's nothing short of a disgrace that Behaviour isn't doing way more to combat toxicity.
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@o7o said:
I think people heavily misconstrue.
Now of course, this was from the beginning pitched as an experiment, with no plans to hit live servers, but it still shocked me that a change, that would so massivly punish one side to adress a comparatively small issue for the other, was even considered.
It wasn't just a small issue, basekit Unbreakable would help against the killers that abuse slugging. It's been happening quite a lot as of lately. I don't know if the devs will even do this anyways cause of survivors finding ways to exploit and abuse it. Both sides abuse tools that are given to them for their entertainment until fixed, however, killers are still able to abuse a mechanic against their own will, making it very fun and unengaging for survivors. Not every killer uses slugging as a strat and rather a way to abuse.
Then still later I noticed that the majority of Survivors in my games both as Survivor and as Killer were toxic towards the Killer, waiting at the exit gates in a 100% save spot just to tea bag when the Killer apporached them or going into a game with their friends without actually playing to win, instead just stunning the Killer over and over again.
I still can't seem to understand this from many people. If you see survivors teabagging at the gate or wasting time instead of trying to go for saves; pressure them out? I don't get how that is toxic unless they are blocking you into a corner and BMing.
Why is Survivor satification important enough to upset the entire games balance over it, but Killer satification is reduced to win statistics? Killer players aren't bots who will be happy as long as enough Survivors die, we are also playing this game to have fun, but the direction and motivation behind the changes to this game that I have witnessed make me fear, that there is a, perhaps unintentional, philosophy towards "Survivors play, Killers perform".
Tell that to the killers that only serve a purpose of making it completely unengaging and not fun for the other side rather than playing their role respectively. Honestly, both sides aren't innocent of this, but to ask why "survivor satisfaction is important enough to upset the entire game balance" is a stretch. There needs to be a fine-tuned balance for both sides to "play". Killers "performing" is rather a personality than intended gameplay.
I will say the last few patches weren't that great, but the devs seem to be listening and taking steps into the right direction. I may not agree with most changes and mechanics, but that doesn't mean the devs won't listen and try fine-tuning things for both sides.
Nurse is still relatively strong as I feel 'Jenner's Last Breath' will get nerfed for release. They kinda made Knight more anti-loopable.
HUD icons aren't going to drastically change the game, just help people get the memo to do their job, which I fear may not be effective enough, but that's just me and we will see.
Do you think it'd be fair if killers could still insta-down the same survivor they hooked after being unhooked? People want the trial to end fairly quick, but not in 5 seconds. That defeats the purpose of having challenge. Plus, it is still super easy to wait out the endurance effect. It should be punishable for the killer but that doesn't disincentivize killers enough to get them to understand they could be making a bad play.
"It wasn't just a small issue, basekit Unbreakable would help against the killers that abuse slugging."
It would be another basekit Perk and it would hurt Killers who don't abuse slugging, why should it be acceptable for a change against a specific rare abusive Killer behaviour to also punish innocent players who don't engage in any abusive behaviour, and if it is where are the changes against similarly abusive Survivor behaviour.
"I still can't seem to understand this from many people. If you see survivors teabagging at the gate or wasting time instead of trying to go for saves; pressure them out? I don't get how that is toxic unless they are blocking you into a corner and BMing."
If a Survivor stays one step away from safety instead of just escaping so they can wait for the killer to see them tea bagging then that is toxic behaviour, whether its upsets you or me doesn't change that it is a completely unneccesery act that serves no other purpose than to make another player upset.
"Tell that to the killers that only serve a purpose of making it completely unengaging and not fun for the other side rather than playing their role respectively."
How does that contradict what I was saying? Nobody should be allowed to be toxic, but sofar I have only seen changes to combat toxicity from one side.
"HUD icons aren't going to drastically change the game, just help people get the memo to do their job, which I fear may not be effective enough, but that's just me and we will see."
Their whole purpose is to give Survivors more information, the only way how they could "fail" at that is Survivors choose to ignore them. Again I am not talking about how strong these changes are on their own, but about the fact that they are changes that look at one sides gameplay experience while only looking at the other sides efficiency.
"Do you think it'd be fair if killers could still insta-down the same survivor they hooked after being unhooked?"
No, but I think that it isn't fair, and an unresolved issue, that the solution to this problem negatively affects players who specificly, maybe even by choise, are not part of the problem.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312329#Comment_3312329
Except they aren't just focused on efficiency with killers?
Do the upcoming Knight changes look like an efficiency change to you? Cause they aren't. Not a single one buffs Knights who just drop guards at loops which is the most efficient but boring way to play him. Instead they all buff Knights that go for longer paths which is much more interesting and fun.
Honestly it's the same for Nurse. Sure overall she's going to be weaker, but they actually buffed a lot of her add ons that are currently meme level. Like the Undetectable post blink hit one, or auto 2nd blink one, or the rewind one.
Again, I'm not talking about game balance, let alone specific balance changes.
I'm not a Knight player, so I don't want to make statements about how the changes will affect him, but if you're asking how they look to me, then yes, number changes do look like efficiency tuning to me.
And if I wanted to be nasty, I could point out that Nurse is (rightfully) the most complaint about Killer from the Survivor side, while there aren't many Nurse mains who were asking for changes, so Nurse receiving changes while the Killers, Killer mains are complaining about, don't, doesn't contradict my impression that changes to the game are motivated by looking at the game from a Survivor viewpoint. Not to mention that the update contains an improvement to the Survivor experience, but nothing for the stealth Killers who will be negativly affected by said change.
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@FFirebrandd said:
So... couple things.
First, post unhook endurance does have counters. You can wait it out and grabs completely bypass the effect.
Second, the patch that made that endurance effect be base kit also added 10 seconds to each generator, gave killers faster kicking gens and pallets, faster recovery from successful hits, shorter post hit speed boosts for Survivors, and a bit of instant regression when kicking gens.
I don't know which side came out on top with that patch, but it isn't nearly as cut and dried as you are portraying.
Same with this patch honestly. Yeah... Nurse is getting nerfed, but the Knight is getting some pretty nifty looking buffs and new Eyre of Crows looks a lot less mean to killers.
Like I wrote in my second paragraph and then reitererated multiple times towards the end, it's about the fact that one side is reduced to efficieny over game feel, not about which side is numerically stronger.
Also, waiting out the immunity on someone who is blocking you isn't countering them, it is doing exactly what they aim to force you to do.