Sometimes_Sage
Sometimes_Sage
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- Sometimes_Sage
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The worst part for me is that they openly acknowledge that Blast Mine has no other use than annoying other players, yet see no issue with that; wild take: don't put stuff into your game to purposefuly make it aggravating to play.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3625267#Comment_3625267
Nobody has said that.
The new system protects Survivors who create a 3gen by themselfs just as much as Survivors who are forced into a 3gen by the Killer, that is the biggest mistake Survivors can make short of just running into the Killer, but thanks to the new system they no longer have to face the consequences.
But at the same time you dismiss the notion that the sytem puts a hard cap on all burst regression perks (and also all kick activated perks) because according to you getting to that point is a mistake by the Killer adn Killers who make mistakes deserve to lose.
Shielding one side from their mistakes while at the same time increasing the potential for mistakes for the other side isn't fair - specially not if the whole system was just supposed to apply to extreme cases.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3625174#Comment_3625174
I do not mean anything malicious by asking, I am genuinely trying to get a better understanding of what the different expectations are. In the same way different people set a different bar for what they consider a win, something like this (how many mistakes you can make and still expect to come out on top) is also highly subjective.
The reason why I ask is because many people would consider losing a down to a save to be a very crucial mistake that can kill your momentum and heavily influence the rest of the match. These things do happen, you won't always expect someone to be hiding around the corner ready to drop the pallet or go for a flashlight save. But if someone is losing the majority of their downs to saves, you have to question how much of a role those mistakes played in their loss. This is the part that I would like a better understanding of. How many major mistakes should someone reasonably expect to make and still expect to recover from?
We try to make mechanics like these account for ordinary circumstances, but in order to do that, we need to establish what is those ordinary circumstances are.
So a downed Survivor getting saved is a failure of the Killer that deserves them to lose the game, (because a save is always preventable - yeah), but if Survivors build a 3gen by going for the savest gens first, they deserve to have their game saved by a mechanic, that was allegedly designed to only activates against Killers who play for a 3gen from the start?
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Making sure that player mistakes don't have lasting consequences is great game design - if one assumes that players are playing against npcs.
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Kill rates don't show where problems might be; Killer-specific MMR ensures that every killer that has some realistic potential to kill Survivor without being unbeatable will gravitate to the same kill rate.
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Well this is... not as bad as expected.
STBFL should only receive the later change as long as M1 Killer are so dependend on it, it doesn't make or break the perk, but again the weak get weaker.
And honestly, who looked at Ormond and thought "Yes, this are the changes the map needs to be balanced"?
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I think it should lead to a permanent ban. Killers should be required to play suboptimal if that means a subjective improvment in the Survivors experience. After all it isn't up the devs to make sure that the base game design doesn't cause unfun interactions and if it does the responsibility to play around that should fall entirely to one role alone.
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There is only one rule Killers have to follow:
"Smartasses get killed. We always see to that."
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@SweetbutaPsycho said:
It plays into the current hard tunnel meta. When a non Obsession gets unhooked and the killer has sufficient Stacks he can use them to go through the endurance and down the survivor again.
How did the Killer get STBFL stacks if they were tunneling?
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Hook grabs as a mechanic led to bad gameplay, but removing them without an replacement means that Killers now can't prevent an unhook at all.
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I usually try to adapt to the Survivors, I start out casual and only start to play more "optimised" if they are doing it too.
I feel that doing it this way is the most fair and fun for both sides.
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The Blight in the picture didn't win, 2K isn't a win by any metric.
A wellplayed Blight is the strongest Killer, everbody knows that, but I don't see how "the strongest Killer in the game can get a 2K without meta Perks" reveals any balance problems.
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So, assuming that nobody in this thread is bs'ing, Deja Vu is both vital in preventing 3-gens but also has too little of an effect to make a noticable difference...
But honestly, I think the big difference new Deja Vu makes is actually not its repair speed boost (though buffing a repair speed Perk during a gen rush meta will upset some people), but the huge improvment to the efficiency of less coordinated or map savvy Survivors.
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Every second chapter now is a rework of a broken Killer, Realm and set of Perks instead of the release of a new one.
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I'm not a huge fan of the new Deja Vu and I actually used the old quite often.
It's once again a solution that has only limited viability against the most egregious instances of the problem but at the same time provides some value even if the problem doesn't even arise in a particular match.
I'd also imagine that it rises the skill floor in low MMR considerably.
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@Sharby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450621#Comment_3450621
I hate to say it but maybe MMR? Tunneling and camping are seen as a high-level strat according to some.
I am by no means the best player ever, but I would say I'm decently high mmr based on how many big streamers I tend to run into.
I'm certainly no top tier Survivor, but I'd assume that camping should occur at all levels; high level player would do it when they have no other chance, mid level players would do it when they think they have no other chance and low level players would do it because they have no meta-knowledge and without that it seems obvious to do.
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I see maybe one proxy camper per ten games, face campers are even rarer; is this a platform thing, are there different servers, or am I just the luckiest ######### in the world?
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In a vacuum, the perk isn't too problematic (though you could argue that its range shouldn't extent past one tile). The issue is that the perk allows one to take full advantage of the broken maps.
So ideally, BHVR should "simply" fix the maps, but I don't think anyone actually expects that to happen.
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This is something far to many game designers do and I will never understand; why push players towards elements that you know are broken?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444419#Comment_3444419
They had an equally strong strategy, people still tunneled and camped.
The issue is that making the game a 3v1 is so busted that anything else that even comes close to that is absurdly strong.
A 3v1 shouldn't be as Killer-favored as it is right now.
There never was any reward for spreading hooks. You yourself clame that the game becomes killersided once one Survivor is out, so what system was were that made the game killersided if they spread hooks?
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This is getting ridiculous:
"Make Killers stop doing what the game design tells them to do!"
"So let's give them an alternative but equaly strong strategy."
"No! It has to be a nerf! Preferably one that also hits Killers who don't even do the thing I'm upset about."
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It is Killer-sided only in the sense that it doesn't put Survivors at an advantage or Killers at an disadvantage.
Gen regression builds used to dominate on it since it is relatively small, but with gen regression nerfed into the ground, it's a fair map.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442417#Comment_3442417
What else is there to do? Healing and unhooking are the only other things to do and if they choose not to heal, then that simply makes chases easier for you. I don’t understand how people actually expect survivors to not focus on the one objective they have.
Chill, I just made a joke about how people get super worked up whenever someone says "tunneling gens", like you just did.
But out of curiosity, how do you feel about Killers who focus on the one objective they have?
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442344#Comment_3442344
Only pushing gens while not caring about heals and ignoring everything else IS the definition of gen rushing.
Or how would you define a gen rush?
Only focusing on gens while ignoring everything else... having tunnel vision aimed at the gens, so to speak... I just can't think of a snappy term for that...
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3441927#Comment_3441927
That a very cool idea but at the same time very bad. To many killers got terrible perks while also just being bad as a whole ( Trapper, freddy, pig)
On the survivor side u will probably just see a bunch of megs. U said survivors wouldn't just be skin tho so I'm assuming u can't pick 4 of the same characters. still i don't know about that
Thus the required rebalance. Individual Perks could be made way stronger if they weren't stackable and had predictable synergy. For example old Dead Hard would have been way less problematic if it had to be used together with No Mither on David, or take the recntly nerfed regression Perks, they would have been fine if they had not been stackable and were tied to their specific Killers, who don't have 3-gen relevant powers.
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I'd make it so that every Survivor and Killer had to use their three perks plus one universal or learned perk.
That would require a massive rebalance, but in the long run would lead to more variety and a healthier base for balancing. Also Survivor wouldn't just be skins.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3440072#Comment_3440072
Gens dont have feeling, survivors do.
Survivors don't play against gens, they play against Killers.
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I absolutely agree you can't blame players for doing what the game tasks them with. Punishing players for doing the obvious thing to do would only feel unfair and breed resentment, the only solution is fixing systems at their core.
@KingFieldShipper said:
Tunneling isn't always the most efficient way to do your objective though. It just so happens to work like that most of the time. But it can backfire and cause you to fall flat on your head and lose. It only works if you are absolutely smart about it and who you tunnel. Doing gens as quickly as possible really doesn't have that downside, unless you count noed existing, which I don't because people aren't doing all 5 totems and very rarely ever have.
For example, I ran this killer for 3 gens the other day, he tunneled me off hook, then tunneled me again, and then finally got his third and final hook when he downed me at the gates. I don't consider that being "efficient" and I'd say that backfired on him.
That said, agree 100% with that last paragraph.
Edit: Just to clarify, I don't only agree with the last paragraph, I laregly agree with the post, I just disagree whenever people blanket say tunneling is the most efficient thing to do.
But this kind of backfiring can only happen if one Survivor is considerably better than the others players in the match including the Killer. So it is a failure of the MMR system at which point every strategy would fall apart.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434319#Comment_3434319
I'm on the fence. I think stopping when a survivor is near would probably be wiser, and that's something I'm going to keep an eye on while testing, but I do kind of see why they might want it to slow- could be that they want to not have one brainless solo queue teammate mess everything up for the person being camped, could be they want a camped survivor to still be able to get off the hook at the last second if someone veers too close for some reason, could be that they're worried about griefing like PTB Reassurance.
It's one of the elements that it's hard to really speculate about until we see it in practice.
This is of course a possible issue, but honestly, between having both a griefer and a face-camper in your game and simply being on a map where the Killer can't avoid going near certain hooks, I think the later will occur way more often.
Midwich, Dead Dawg, RPD, The Game, Lery's and every mapgen that has the Basement in the Shack are all all but guaranteed to cause issues.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434274#Comment_3434274
All forms of just standing next to a hook, not all forms of being near a hooked survivor in general. We already know they plan on this system lessening if you have a reason to be in that area, because there are other survivors there, so if there's a reason to be around a hooked survivor the worst case scenario is that you're less punished- and if it's that worst case scenario on the PTB I'd be pretty reasonably sure it'd get changed before live.
Explain to me, why should the system just lessen instead of stopping when the Killer has a reason to be in the area?
At this point this is basically saying: "Don't break this rule, or you will be punished. However, if you are not breaking the rule, you will still be punished, just not as harshly."
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433902#Comment_3433902
it has to be pretty fast because hook timer are 60 seconds. You need to kobe from a hook before 60 seconds otherwise mechanic is failure because if the killer is still getting 2nd stages by sitting on hook then the system ultimately is ineffective at being anti-camping. If I had to take a guess, It would likely be 15 seconds. 15 second is plenty to get away from the hook. If you haven't went away from hook by 15 second then you probably are just face-camping which system is trying discourage.
Getting away from the hook isn't enough, with the 16m range you also need to stay away from the hook.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433880#Comment_3433880
...Again, whether or not it does provide a new method of unhooking is going to depend on how fast the meter fills up, among other things. That's literally my point.
The method exists because of the 16m range and because the bar still fills when another Survivor is nearby. How fast the bar fills only decides how effective the method is. The possiblity, no matter how small, of a bar-assisted self-unhook against a not-face camping Killer, doesn't need to and shouldn't exist, but with this system it does.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433847#Comment_3433847
The numbers would make a gigantic difference to that, though. If the bar takes a while to fill, you won't be punished for just walking away from the hook, even if the range is the full 16m as shown here. If another survivor being present slows it down to a crawl, you won't be punished for chasing near the hook either.
Not knowing the numbers isn't some feeble defence here, the numbers are going to swing this hard in one way or the other. It's not an element you can just ignore.
The mechanic is supposed to punish face camping, full stop. It is not supposed to provide a new method of unhooking against Killers who don't face camp, no matter how effective or ineffective.
If it were impossible to prevent face camping with a smaller radius we'd have grounds for discussion, but that's not the case.
The fact is that the mechanic goes further than it needs to, to fulfill its purpose and thereby harms Killers who aren't engaging in the behaviour that is supposed to be prevented and that is indefensible.
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"The bar will still take time to fill."
"We don't know the numbers, yet"
Doesn't matter, the mechanic is only supposed to punish face campers, as it is now it also affects Killers who don't camp.
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So apparently another gamewide new mechanic, that once again is exploitable (despite not even needing to be) is equal to two specific maps, that should never have been in their state to begin with, being locked at.
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431553#Comment_3431553
This is just false lol. Here's a common scenario: Killer hooks survivor. Leaves the hook to "chase" another survivor. Unhook happens, survivor goes somewhere to heal thinking the killer is distracted, but then the killer breaks chase to go look for them (and worse case finds them before the heal is completed). Is this not still tunneling?
No, it isn't.
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431399#Comment_3431399
People who hard tunnel (most games) do go after the same person right after they get off the hook. So what point are you trying to make? lol.
That if you are feeling the effects of Sloppy Butcher or the self heal nerf, you're not being tunneled, because if you were being tunneled you'd have no opportunity to heal. "lol."
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Buff Ghostface, how can the Killer who is famous for meticulously crafted chase scenes have no chase power?
Rework Legion, because if a Killer is mid tier at best yet still one of the most hated by Survivor mains, there is something wrong with their design
Nerf Ghostface, because if he receives a buff to his chasing power something else has to give
Remove Meg, because she gets me killed more often than every other Killer combined
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I remember a time, not long ago, when tunneling meant "hooking, camping and chasing again the same Survivor until they are dead while ignoring everything else" and not "killing a Survivor before the eighth hook"
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Honestly, what world are some of you living in?
Players who play for efficiency even if it ruins someone elses experience are monsters, but players who go out of their way to ruin other players experience just because are doing nothing wrong? What?
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@Krazzik said:
I think the big reason that many killer players get defensive is because a lot of survivors outright demonise killers who tunnel. They don't just complain about tunneling as a method, they outright hurl abuse at the killers who do it. The whole "baby killer needs to tunnel to win" mentality is pretty prevalent and so it's no wonder when someone complains about tunneling, killers are gonna defend themselves.
I think that's the core of most issues this community has. If people here would see other players as other players instead of scheming villains we'd be able to have constructive dicourse.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428617#Comment_3428617
If they punished killers for tunneling it wouldn't be the right course of action tho would it?
At this point you're asking for a massive nerf to Killers.
Hardly any Killer main would complain if the general gameplay flow would be shifted to reward spreading hooks over tunneling, but if you demand that a solution to a problem feld only by Survivors is paid for exclusivly out of the Killers pockets, you shouldn't be suprised if Killers point out that they don't want to pay for your fun.
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The problem is that "Wow tunneling is really unfun, I wish the devs did something to make it less viable" still boils down to "Punish Killers for doing what is simply the "right" course of action", so you obviously won't get many Killer mains agreeing with you.
A better point would be "Wow tunneling is really unfun, I wish the devs did something to make not doing it more viable"
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I'm sorry for the tunneling, but as a lone Killer, I have to do it. If I don't camp you, your team will do gens instead of trying to save you, so I have to keep them occupied so they don't work on the generators.
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Okay, prepare for some searing hottakes:
- Legion isn't that unfun to play against
- Dead Hard is still going to be a top tier perk next patch; it will be just like in 6.1, its usage rate will plummet and then recover over time
- Both sides should be able to see if and which Survivors are in a SWF group, in the lobby
- Skill Checks would need to be reworked into an RNG mechanic to balance Perks involving them
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@Deathstroke said:
I think at pallets it should get nerfed you should not be able to drop one if you activate it for few secs. Other than that is fine and you can still go after unhooker now who will not have dh so it's good change. Most situations are counterable you mentioned if you are bit patient and survivor has to predict you.
Yeah, that completely ignores the point of this thread, so at least it's on theme.
@WesCravenFan said:
As much as I loathe this perk as much as Sideshow Bob hates Bart, I need to point out you know EXACTLY who does not have Dead Hard:
If you have not hooked them, they don't have it.
What would you suggest, slugging, tombstone piece or slugging with tombstone piece?
@Rudjohns said:
If tunneling wasnt a thing DH would be dead lmao
All versions of Dead Hard, old, PTB and new are are made useless by tunneling.
@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393568#Comment_3393568
I disagree dh is hard to use to get value if killer is patient. You said yourself that survivors only manage to use it 15% of time agains't you. The only problem really is now that it is so common but this change should make it pick rate go lower. Cob and Oc require you to just kick gens that is easy.
Forcing Killer to be "patient" is value and also the very reason why Dead Hard is so hated.
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The thing is that the new Dead Hard won't discourage tunneling; a good anti-tunneling perk would be strong if the Killer tunnels but meaningless if they don't, the new Dead Hard will be meaningless if the Killer tunnels but strong if they don't.
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So now Killers will have to "wait out" Dead Hard again, just not during the first chase.
This reduces the power of the perk but ignores all of its actual issues. I guess it was to optimistic to expect to see a the single most enduring Survivor meta perk to be treated like every single Killer meta perk.
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I'd say Legion are lower midtier. Their major problems are that their power can be played around relativly easily if the Survivors know what they are doing and general M1ness.
I also doubt that the healing changes will help them much because the best way to play against them won't change.
On the other hand, Legion would probably become A-tier instantly, if they were to get a more reasonable way to down Survovirs with their power.
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@Grum said:
If the killer is camping, that leaves the survivors 12 seconds to both make it to the hook, and make an unhook play before the person on hook dies.
Unless the killer has sloppy, in which case healing will take 60 seconds and the person on hook just dies.
In this scenario the Killers managed to injure all four Survivors and non of them thought about healing until one of them got hooked; in other words, a skillful play from the Killer, leading to well earned pressure, combined with a massive missplay from the Survivors leaves the Survivors in a tough spot. I see no issue.