Ryuhi
Ryuhi
About
- Username
- Ryuhi
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@Deathwish4231 said:
As a survivor I needed them for generator achievements. As a killer I needed them for adept achievements, mainly so my addons weren't wasted. so in my opinion? I recon they kinda screwed the pooch on the whole thing.
For offerings with single maps like RPD and midwitch it makes sense to drop them to 25% or something. for maps that have multiple maps on them, it’s punishing long-time players who have no desire to burn 100 offerings and not get a new map for its associated generator achievement.
further explanation; before changes, there would have already been a 25% chance of getting ‘fallen refuge’ by burning ‘Ichorous loam’ offering, because it’s associated with fazbears, Greenville and garden of joy as well as fallen refuge now.
Add the now 20% chance at getting that realm at all if you burn an offering,, and the math is then 25% divided by 20%. That equals a 1.5% chance at getting fallen refuge and even having a chance at escaping regardless, which because of the tunneling and hook camping that his been not fixed with a simple 15 seconds invisibility for the unhooked and person unhooking, is already nearly impossible.
I spent about 25 hours over three days, and easily over 100 icorous loam offerings for this Fallen refuge map, got it after three days and thankfully got it first try- on one device.
since then, It’s the same bs on my other device! I’ve spent now two days and about 16 hours (all of this between work 🤣) trying to get the fallen refuge map by burning offering after offering, I got the map once about an hour ago and got tunnelled out for even being near the generator. I get garden of joy all the time, I get Greenville all the time, and yet Ive had fazbears and fallen efuge one time on each devide over a combined total of over 40 hours.
So to the devs, I actually hate you all right now for seemingly punishing long term players by making the easiest of achievements quite literally almost impossible to do now, by ruining the map tokens completely. and if you really wanted to fix tunneling, go with 15 seconds invisibility to hook and unhooked. None of that hidden scratch marks and blood stuff either, I want vecna’s body part invisibility for unhooking people, I want them to have invisibility but to be able to see me, and I want my 200 odd icorous loam offerings back too but I'll keep dreaming while I'm playing something else, waiting to see if you fix what you completely wrecked.Honestly, I think a better solution would be to stop making the map specific achievements as arduous as they are, especially since each map added just makes them less attainable for the reasons you mentioned. Sadly can't adjust existing ones due to platform policies, but I don't consider it more important than how they were used in the past by a long shot though.
Of course, the issue wouldn't exist if maps were balanced so 🤷♂️
-
nice list, thanks for putting it together (or reposting if put together elsewhere.)
Sad Clock Tower is never on their radar though :(
-
Our community can't even handle end game chat, and thats only even available to a limited portion of the userbase. Though even for the ones who aren't, people still send direct messages on consoles to show off the depth of their character.
Not only are you introducing a worthless mechanic if for most people the default would be to disable it entirely, but you're also expanding on an existing balancing quagmire: Comms via SWF are already an advantage, but they aren't directly targeted with balancing considerations because they are independent of the game itself, among other reasons of varying validity. If you were to make it an integrated mechanic, you would then have to balance around having it enabled, which would indirectly nerf anyone who doesn't use them. Or ignore it and make almost every perk or mechanic that relies on surprise to be useless. Either way its going to be negative for a pretty relative portion to anyone who it would possibly improve the game for. Just stick with discord or console party chat systems.
-
@ThatRyanB said:
I totally hear the frustration here and know I personally can't change how these nerfs feel for you, but I do want to make sure the feedback I'm bringing back to the team is as specific as possible and as representative of your experiences in the game as possible. With that, it makes it easier to advocate for changes.
If you don't mind me pulling this back a step to dig into the details, I'd like to ask two specific questions:
1. Of the two recent nerfs to Fog Vials (reduced opacity; max 2 charges), do you feel that one of these in particular pushed the item from feeling viable to feeling like it's not worth using? If so, which was it?
2. If you could make one specific change to Fog Vials that'd push them towards being an item you'd enjoy using, what would it be?
I hear the more general feedback (and rest assured, it's being collected and shared with the team), but if there are specific facets of the recent nerfs that felt most impactful, I want to make sure I'm giving them my particular attention. That, and things that could make Fog Vials feel better for you (like the great suggestions of increasing the total charges a little more).I don't envy the number of responses you have to go through on this post. That said, I'll try to provide as clear feedback regarding the vial as I can. Use it or don't, its always the choice of you guys on the other end what gets taken from the feedback provided, but I feel like the damage control with the item has been as bad as the initial problems it introduced. All I ask is that if balance focused changes are the only ones given, none of them be presented as accessibility focused.
Give more counterplay for people who are impaired vs the item. Opacity and charges are balance focused changes, I don't have any dog in the race on that front, because they basically render the game unplayable due to the level of multi-sensory disorientation and lack of compensatory options that can be used to minimize their impact. Don't start with making aspects of them weaker, start with allowing ways for players to work around them when affected. Changes like that and normalizing their impact across maps should be the priority before touching them balance wise, instead of just making panic nerfs that just piss off the majority of players while not addressing the accessibility aspect of the item.
Changes that should be focused on should involve the number of tracking elements the item affects, or there should be a perk that minimizes or reduces aspects of the item. Look back at how you handled spine chill, which was being used by hearing impaired players to minimize the disadvantage they had regarding TR intensity as an audio cue. When the visual TR was introduced, it was touted as a leaning experience that fair access to basic functions of the game should not be locked behind a perk slot. Start there and give us that perk to work as a stopgap (the fact that it has a loadout cost will help prevent abuse in just nullifying the item) until you can come up with a non-intrusive method later.
The alternative would be reducing the number of targets for disorientation. This doesn't even have to be a complete removal, but something as simple as allowing auras but having them fade in and out in half second intervals or something similar would allow them to impede, but also allow affected players the ability to course correct within the cloud instead of just losing all bearings. Scratch marks and audio are tricky to even touch, since they can cause issues for people even when "unimpeded," so the safer option would be to remove any audio effect from the item as scratchmarks being unaffected would be more impactful against the item's viability. Ironically opacity might be both the least effective thing to change for this reason, and shouldn't even be looked at until the effect is normalized across applications (lighting, maps, existing fog, etc.) If you want to look at that specifically for balance reasons, create a LCD to work with as a baseline and then factor in the impact each element like lighting or map filter have on its visual obfuscation, and either create an adaptive formula to have it factor those variables or simply find a middleground baseline and resign to it working better or worse on certain maps. For all I know that was already tried and thats the conclusion that was arrived at, but I feel the need to mention it since opacity was probably the last thing that should have been touched (and did the most instant harm to its perceived viability.)
If thats too hard/not allowed/ignored for whatever reason, at least keep them usable in their intended purpose. Pandora's box was already opened, and if you want to damage control the item, it needs to be done properly or not at all. Many of the accessibility issues in the game could have been prevented with proper planning and more careful implementation, but now that it's in the game, it's just another for the pile of things that would need to be addressed with extra labor in order to help affected players. If the idea is to make them so weak that they get buried in the subconscious of the player base (AKA perma-benched like multiple killers have been while awaiting "reworks") that will absolutely backfire from a customer perspective, due to introducing near-worthless clutter. They need to be worth using but allow affected players better methods to compensate. Or just any at all.
-
Still say they should have just consolidated them into indoor and outdoor offerings instead of specific realms. Might have been too much effort though.
-
@ibesassu said:
I would say, maybe if they changed it as a luck value… sometimes you can wiggle out of it .. just like jumping off hook.. that wouldn't be such a bad alternative….
Imagine if gens could have a chance to just pop back to 50% instead of completing. Thats basically what you're asking for.
Wiggling is to prevent every hook from being a scourge/basement hook, or allowing for opportunities for saves with things like pallets and flashlights by making routing choices higher risk/reward. That type of objective denial is supposed to be a consequence, not a feature.
-
what level of value would you require?
-
@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979745#Comment_3979745
I was referring to the poster's call to reduce both charges and efficiency on items. Without running perks or augmenting the item with add-ons, a med-kit has only enough charges to perform one self heal. If you reduce the charges it is no longer capable of performing that function.
Thats true and is why the minimum application value should always be baseline. That said, that doesn't mean the higher thresholds on the better versions can't be adjusted. I don't have a dog in the race on what should(n't) be nerfed, just that the items core purposes (and people's perceptions on them) seem to be part of the issue.
-
@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979750#Comment_3979750
That’s not what I’m getting at. I guess what I’m trying to do is trigger constructive thinking in you to test your knowledge base outside of what you can visibly see.
For instance without being able to make out a single pallet in any of these photos I can tell you there’s not one in the double tubes so they could only hide there. There’s possibly pallets behind them in another jungle gym if they didn’t use the given the direction they are facing . There’s the pallet in shack in the back right corner past the tubes. If you go left it leads to main and there’s pallets on the bottom floor, top floor, and on the balcony by the ramp. They would probably path to shack or to main depending on where resources have been exhausted or where they think people are doing gens. Most likely go left because it’s closer.
Yes, I know how to extrapolate information, I even did as much in the post you responded to. I was giving you an account of what I was able to perceive in those exact screenshots, as they were presented free of variables like graphics settings or platform. We are seeing the same images, which is why I was being direct about what was visibly discernible instead of relying on metadata.
-
@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979729#Comment_3979729
Understandable.
Where’s the pallets? Survivors love pallets. They will probably be trying to get to one.
If it’s a dead zone where are the LOS blockers they would use to try and pull one over if they wanted to be stealthy?I don't get what you mean. Are you asking what benefit the vial is supposed to be providing? I was just giving insight for how it obstructed the view, since I couldn't see the shack you mentioned to identify it. You seemed to be able to see forever so I figured the perspective might be helpful.
-
@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979503#Comment_3979503
In that situation, why would anyone bring any item? What would a med-kit actually do that would justify bothering with it? What would the toolbox do? If I'm playing survivor and a game goes exactly the same, beat for beat, with an item than it would have without an item, what's the point other than wanting to fill an empty slot on the loadout screen?
To have a situational tool? Medkit lets you self heal, toolbox lets you sabo, flashlight lets you go for a save, etc. The point of items is supposed to be to give you an option you don't have without it, with their secondary effects (healing/repairing faster, perk synergy, etc) being secondary bonuses to provide a baseline value if the options don't become necessary. The fact that they're generally seen as primarily an augment to their passive application means people would rather they be easier to use than more effective at their niche.
-
@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979675#Comment_3979675
just a question out of curiosity. Is this an example of acceptable or unable acceptable fog?
I can’t see through your eyes, but I can see through mine and I can make out shack. The object on the far top left that leads to the jungle gym. The pit in middle left. The double tubes on the right. The debris that are chilling in the middle by the tube on the right. I can see straight through this to the other side. I can literally see the other side of the map from where you’re standing.FWIW I can't see a building past the fog in any of the three, though the bottom one I can make out a box and what looks like a black pole in the middle (im guessing the corner of the building?) I can see the box and the line a bit in the other two, but I feel like thats mostly filling in the gaps knowing they're supposed to be there. Same with what looks like a gate/fence behind the locker, can see it a bit in the bottom image but can tell its supposed to be there in the other two when looking back. Feel like im trying to watch the hot air balloon above the road.
So again, changes that don't really address the issue for affected people, but make it weaker for everyone else.
-
just reminded me of how the two situations were handled
-
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979050#Comment_3979050
What specific changes did you want to see? I did try and have a look sorry, but your profile is private. I dont have an issue with the changes to unlimited usage. They are still an inconvenience at worst (kind of the point though, I know) so I'm not gonna complain about seeing them go off less within a game. But i think the changes to opacity are just going to make an already average item not worth survivors bringing, and I'd rather see the vials than toolboxes and flashlights, personally.
Yep, they went in the wrong direction. The starting point would be a means to counter it, generally via a perk at first, until they can maybe find a non-intrusive way to incorporate it basekit later. They could alternatively only nerf it in the number of elements it hides, so as to allow for ways to potentially compensate. But anything else would be a balance focused adjustment and not really an accessibility one.
-
@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979033#Comment_3979033
I wish this worked for me. No matter what side I play, I feel like the other player has psychic powers and knows how to perfectly counter me at all times and I have no idea how they do it.
It can take some time to start picking stuff up, but generally if you start with their fundamentals like pathing and routing, you kinda build up from there into more advanced stuff. Once you get your footing, it can be a pretty gradual growth as you just pick stuff up subconsciously.
-
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978854#Comment_3978854
I have no solution for you. I am hard of hearing (grandfather and aunty were both deaf, hearing issues are in my genes) and wear strong prescription glasses *and* have my couch pushed up close to my TV just so I can play. And I still have zero issues with the fog vials, nor have I needed to adjust my settings. Even in indoor maps - I've played on Lerys and Hawkins, not to mention various main buildings and still had no issues seeing survivors through them.
If you are getting bright lights with no filters or reshapes, then report it as a bug as that's evidently not an intended effect. If you are noticing discrepancies between the effects on various maps, then report it as a bug as that's evidently not an intended effect. Why should 'completely gut or remove the new item after a week' be the only option put forth by folks having issues?
The only options I've put forth have been specifically avoiding overnerfing. Can't speak for others, but I'll sooner just quit the game then have them make a token adjustment that doesn't address the issues and just piss off everyone evenly. Now that its already in the game, they can only really provide ways for people to attempt to compensate (whether settings, perks, or less tracking elements affected)
-
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978925#Comment_3978925
There is absolutely nothing appealing about it, people just don't like having their opinions or pre-concieved notions challenged and proven wrong.
"You learn more through collaboration than you do through validation. Hell even in game, you get better at survivor/particular killers by going against them, as you learn what they would do in a situation you will likely later find yourself in. The best way to learn either role is to play the opposite. Same applies to discussions, if nothing else, having disagreements with the other role gives you insight into the struggles they might have and helps you build your game plan around it." - Sun Tzu or something idk.
-
@cburton311 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976175#Comment_3976175
reading comprehension for the lose. I said it isnt game breaking which is factually true. The game works fine, everyone can play and killers can still kill people with this perk…its just harder. Additionally, I have seen less than 5% of my teammates with this perk so it is additionally a marginal impact on the game.
So to summarize, learn to read all the words and then use your grey matter to understand them.
That back and forth about semantics regarding "game breaking" feels like a big part why this became such a hot issue in the first place (before the response.) Its a term thats definition is going to vary from person to person, ranging from breaking the potential of the game up to breaking the function of the game.
Game breaking can be used to define a bug that causes a crash to desktop. It prevents the game from functioning at all, so it is thus game breaking.
It can also be used to define a bug that makes the game nearly impossible to complete. If all the gens get done in less than 2 minutes, the killer is not going to have much of a chance at finishing the game in anything but a loss. Likewise for a scenario that has been in the game, if the killer is able to flawlessly hold a 3 gen until the server shuts down, this is considered game breaking (thus why the kick limit and multiple other changes were introduced.) Sure, there were small chances for the survivors to escape if the killer screwed up royally, but it was essentially a checkmate that did not rely on game mechanics booting players from the game.
The line can be hard to see when one role has autonomy while the other has shared agency. In order for something to be considered game breaking, regardless of the technicality involved it usually requires one or more players to be unable to make any significant progress toward their objective due to an unintentional (or just poorly thought out) issue. This can be true in certain situations for an individual (like camp/tunnel/slug/etc) but once it affects whole teams, the importance of an expedient solution ramps up significantly (as it now affects the function of the game for entire factions.)
What this means is that any bug that stops players from playing via the extreme form of game breaking (CTD, false DC penalties, etc) are always game breaking by virtue of physically preventing the game from functioning, and would therefore be good candidates for rapid responses like the killswitch. Things where they break the game for individual players can tie into the structure of the game, so things like saves when picking up survivors/gen kicks/other legitimate forms of objective denial are not considered game breaking, but when aspects of them function beyond their normal application to the point they throw a vast offset into the core structure and expectations of the game, they should be killswitched until they can be resolved. Its also important to note that this mindset is mostly focused on bugs specifically, balance issues are a whole other beast that can require more considerations for any given topic due to the sheer number of moving parts.
TL:DR "Game breaking" doesn't always mean what people claim it does, and has multiple applications both directly and colloquially. Just so this doesn't get any random hate from anyone who doesn't read the whole thing, I say this more because of how people generally don't seem to see eye to eye because they assume its a term with only one definition (their own.) The devs absolutely should have hit the killswitch earlier than they did, but I hope this insight might help them with their plan to "get better" about guidelines for its use.
-
@UnicornMedal said:
As others have said, it's now overcorrected into what will essentially be another dead item in the web. I guess we have more room for it now with the reworks?
The best part is that the changes don't even address the accessibility issues, other than slightly reducing the impact. So now its an item that will end up much worse vs the majority of players, while still causing major issues for the people it affects. If they use accessibility as an excuse for the change, it is 100% trying to shift blame. They already opened pandora's box, its too late to take that type of approach. All they can do at this point is provide counter options or allow more compensatory potential by limiting the amount of tracking elements it affects.
-
@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978542#Comment_3978542
please do give me the solution to me going legally blind with sadako in indoor maps
or how to not go blind when im using the dredge's power
without using reshade that is or nivdia's filters
they might have fixed the issue with maps being dark, but bugs or badly designed effects are still in the game
and forget that, not everyone can see perfectly or hear perfectly, reshade and other programs can help both sides
but sure this is just "killers" thing
its why they added the heartbeat visual you lemon
its why they added the heartbeat visual you lemon
-
@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978430#Comment_3978430
I don’t know. Just speculation. I don’t have these impairments, so I can’t say what it’s like to have them (which is why I’d never try to judge how bad this is for people who do). But that’s the only reason I can imagine why BHVR is handling it this way.
Because idk.. only from my pov: they could’ve even made the effect a bit stronger once it became limited. (But that’s just from my perspective.)
I already had little issue tracking directly in the fog as it was.I get what you mean. The big thing with the item in terms of accessibility is that there are few ways to fix it without either obliterating it or just doubling down. They either need to give some type of viable way to compensate (like a perk that negates its effects, or revisiting how it interacts with auras,) or reduce the amount of tracking elements it hides (not necessarily their potency.) Those would probably be the only changes that would do much of anything in a reasonable manner.
-
@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978410#Comment_3978410
Yup, I actually 100% agree with you.
I wouldn’t have minded if they made it even a bit stronger the moment that charges are limited.. but..: But I say “actually” because I’m referring to my own matches and personal experience here.I think the reason BHVR is doing this (nerfing the opacity) is because... there are a lot of players who have issues with vision or hearing, but still play DBD.
They learned the game in a state that was playable for them — with their limitations — and then suddenly an item gets added that, overnight, makes the game partially unplayable for some of them. I think that’s the reason BHVR adjusted the opacity.Of course, I can’t say for sure. But here's the thing:
If someone has a physical disability, they’ll probably avoid games that rely heavily on sight — like shooters — where you know upfront that the game involves smoke bombs or visual clutter.
With DBD, though, they probably checked out the game and realized “hey, I can actually play this,” because it didn’t have something like Fog Vial in it originally. And then years later, suddenly something gets added that makes it borderline unplayable for them.I don’t have any impairments myself, so I can’t speak from experience. But I try to put myself in their shoes — and maybe that’s what BHVR is thinking here, too, idk.
Can't shut pandora's box. If that's they're reasoning, its extremely poor and kinda tonedeaf.
-
I think Op meant the rhetorical question more toward the devs, as in "Was it worth not killswitching it before the backlash?" At least, thats how I take it.
-
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977271#Comment_3977271
I'm hard of hearing (deafness runs in my family), and i also wear strong prescription glasses (which I'm currently booked in to get an even stronger script as I'm having to sit up close to my TV). So I understand visual and audio issues better than most. I'm still struggling to see the issue. But ill accept that everyone is different.
I didn't mean to imply you couldn't be affected as well with just a less egregious impact, I've just been having a very hard time explaining it lately to people who seem to not understand how the vials could cause issues for others. I'm glad you haven't been impacted as much, but honestly the main reason I main survivor is because of how much the existing issues affect my ability to track as it is, so the item is pretty debilitating in most situations. Even if it weren't potentially active for up to 48/60 seconds at a time (hyperbolic, but easily attainable with a 4 man) it would still be too much. Losing someone for a few seconds in a single chase can be game changing as it is.
-
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975976#Comment_3975976
Honestly, I've been playing killer all morning and had fog vials in every game so far and the audio is muffled but not completely removed. I dunno if it's a headphones thing maybe? It's legit causing me zero issues. I'm honestly stumped seeing so many people have issues with fog vials. I cant recall a single game where I've been disorientated or lost a survivor. I even just had a game on Forgotten Ruins now where I hit a Meg, she dropped a vial, I saw her blood pools run into the portal and I saw she Plot Twisted. So I entered the portal and looked down at my feet and there she was. The fog vial was still active too down there (or possibly another survivor dropped one to try hide her friend). It was a clever play but common sense prevailed.
Perhaps we should all share gameplay clips? Maybe it's different depending on our settings or something?
The issue is that a lot of hearing and vision issues in the game affect people disproportionately as it is. If they don't affect you, great! Thats normal. But they do affect other people, and a lot of things are done on purpose as part of the game's design, to varying degrees of reasonability. Things like not having [
colorblind setting to illuminate blood pools to help colorblind players] is reasonable, as doing so would basically just make a toggle that anyone could use to see them easier. The problem comes with things like the chase music being purposely loud to obscure other sounds, which immediately puts players with hearing issues at a direct disadvantage in regards to tracking in chase.Then you add on things like footsteps either being quiet or not working at all at times, loud noise notifications making more quiet sound cues practically worthless, extremely loud hook screams that require constantly adjusting the audio level every time someone gets hooked, and now dampening all audio on top of the other difficulties people have already been having. If you have 100% potential and the fog vials removed 25%, you'd still have a 75% potential: If someone is already at maybe 75% potential, they would now be at 50%. Thats why accessibility issues are so important to avoid, they have a disproportionate impact across the player base. Whats fine for one can be completely unplayable for another.
Part of why this item is such a perfect storm of issues is because people with sensory disabilities often use their other senses to compensate. Someone who is hard of hearing will likely rely on visual cues more than someone who is not, while someone who with vision issues likely adapts to track by sound cues more. When you impair multiple senses simultaneously, this can often cause them to be less able to compensate as a normal player can, especially if they have issues with both.
-
@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976355#Comment_3976355
If a killer isn't using aura perks then they certainly don't care if Fog Vials obscure auras, yes?
So far as scratch marks go, they're already there. Fog Vials are meant to be a counterplay to them, not the other way around.
Considering how they work, auras would be the forced solution for people who have their issues worsened by the item. If an item is going to completely **** on a group of players, you need to at least allow them to waste a perk slot in order to actually be able to play the game.
-
@NekoGamerX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976209#Comment_3976209
why should killers be penalty for using their own power.
Some people seem to forget trapper can still drop someone walking into his own trap in 2025
-
@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975887#Comment_3975887
Heartbeat option exists my dude, if you aren't paying attention that's on you.
The heartbeat option prevents fog from obscuring silhouettes and the red stain?
-
@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975872#Comment_3975872
Oh no, anyway. Do you have any actual arguments or do you just dislike survivors playing stealthy and only want chase? If it's the latter then again, play a different game or learn the counterplay. Because according to your logic we gotta remove about half the game because some people want to use people with disabilities as props and as excuses to not have to deal with stuff.
I mean it affects my ability as survivor to track the killer, so maybe its not about me "disliking survivors playing stealthy" or "only wanting chase?" Its just as obnoxious when I lose massive distance vs a turbospeed clown because I had to be much closer to react to his red glow? Then again you descended into an absurd strawman so I'm talking more to people who might make more sensible versions of your arguments.
-
@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975869#Comment_3975869
Bruh, just throw on some aura perks and use them after the fogs gone. Problem solved.
Ah yes, so I'm only unable to utilize any core tracking mechanics for 8-12 seconds at a time, roughly every 60-70 seconds.
Per survivor that brings the item.
Cyclically throughout the entire match.
But hey, at least i wasted multiple perk slots on perks that only work when there isn't at least 1 survivor nearby with a charge ready
-
@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975862#Comment_3975862
Literally said any perk that grants undetectable but if you need me to spell some out for you maybe something like Tinkerer, trail of torment, unforseen. Not to mention all the killers I listed, sorry if stealth killers are better now and you can't rely on broken cheesy killers. Now are you gonna come up with a real argument for why there's an issue with fog vials besides you don't like having to learn counterplay?
And how does undetectable make the game any more clear? Visually or auditorally? What tracking aspects does it help the player to compensate for? If you're trying to condescendingly say that stealth killers are an "answer" because they have a better chance of catching survivors off guard, that doesn't even remotely address the actual accessibility issue. The "argument" I have been making consistently.
-
@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975851#Comment_3975851
Wdym? I really don’t have an issue with it. Everyone can bring whatever they want—perks, add-ons, items—it’s all part of the game. I never said otherwise.
Also, I never claimed I feel completely countered by it. It’s just that in some situations, it messes a bit with how I personally like to play—like lining up satisfying Huntress longshots, or how Fog Vials can throw off Spirit’s power. That’s it.
Not even complaining here, just pointing out that IMO it’s not the best design when something that’s not strong by itself ends up hard-countering specific powers in specific cases.
That said—if I see four Fog Vials while queuing Spirit, I still hit ready. I just adjust how I play.Fog doesn’t affect close-range chases much, so it's not really a threat there. If needed, securing an early tunnel to establish pressure is just a logical adjustment.
If I can already tell the match is gonna be boring, I just try to end it fast. Play it efficient and move on.
Also eh… you probably misunderstood me. I never complained.
Saw it was a misquote, no worries.
-
@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975856#Comment_3975856
Copying this because there's tons of counterplay.
you know, learn counterplay and pick killers which can deal with it. Like playing ghostface, pig, wraith, myers, chucky, skull merchant, or any killer with an undetectable perk/add-on and pair that with franklins. Shocking I know but being able to get the hit off before they can use the vial and then forcing them to drop it is a great way to counter them.
You still have yet to mention a single perk besides Franklins, which was specifically gutted in this very patch because they were too lazy to figure out how to make it work with their new changes to charges for keys, maps…. and fog vials.
-
@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975851#Comment_3975851
Okay then don't play a game about tracking audio and visual stuff if you have a disability. Or you know, learn counterplay and pick killers which can deal with it. Like playing ghostface, pig, wraith, myers, chucky, skull merchant, or any killer with an undetectable perk/add-on and pair that with franklins. Shocking I know but being able to get the hit off before they can use the vial and then forcing them to drop it is a great way to counter them.
I have a disability that impacts my hearing, don't use other people as some kind of prop for your disgusting agenda of trying to nerf one side because you yourself have a skill issue. People with disabilities aren't props for your argument.Okay then don't play a game about tracking audio and visual stuff if you have a disability.Ah, ok, don't need to engage any further.
-
@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975836#Comment_3975836
Cool and the killer put all their eggs in one basket by not picking perks to deal with fog vials and picking a killer whose weak against them. Problem solved.
Believe it or not I played this game before Billy and Wraith were added. I'm far too jaded to deal with this level of hypocrisy where it's okay if one side has something that negates the other side but it's not if the other side has something that's strong. Go and deal with it like everyone whose ran sabo against pyramid head, healing against plague, stealth builds against doctor, and so on and so forth.Cool and the killer put all their eggs in one basket by not picking perks to deal with fog vials and picking a killer whose weak against them. Problem solved.What perks? Whispers? Bloodhound? Those are the two I came up with and have yet to hear more. Maybe Stridor? The effects of the vials block almost every single tool that would be used to compensate for the issues they create. Not only that, this is about something that introduces multiple accessibility issues centered around core mechanics that are already biased against people with disabilities, with an impact ranging anywhere from
"barely an inconvenience"to"I would have a better idea of whats happening with my eyes shut and my headphones off."Imagine if there was a new killer who hit you with a poison that inverted your controls. Sounds absolutely horrible, right? Some players would be able to adapt to that without skipping a beat. Hell, people already know to run backwards toward hag traps to make her extremely unlikely to land a teleport hit. But lets say a bad idea like that gets pushed out anyway. This would introduce an accessibility nightmare, as it relies on a particular ability to compensate for perspective disorientation, something your average person needs to recalibrate to before even attempting to "translate" their inputs. For many, the game would become unplayable. And that would be just one killer, not a potential for up to 4 opponents.
Thats why the fog vials are such an issue. You back yourself into a corner with design like that, it either has to be so weak that it doesn't ruin the experience for affected players, or it has to be so strong that its oppressive even against people who are less susceptible, and absolutely butcher affected players. THIS IS A COMPOUNDING ISSUE DUE TO MULTIPLE PURPOSEFUL DECISIONS ABOUT TRACKING, ESPECIALLY REGARDING CHASE MUSIC AND VOLUME NORMALIZATION. You know, assuming there aren't any major bugs currently affecting tracking elements at the time, and there always tends to be at least one.
If you've been playing as long as you say you have, you've definitely seen a lot more loaded hypocrisy than what you're perceiving on this issue.
-
@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975829#Comment_3975829
Let's say survivors all run the same build, are you still okay with killer powers negating whole builds?
Yes, because they could have run any combination of builds to diversify their chances, but they put all their eggs in one basket. Are you ok with survivors being able to cover each other with fog vials and chaining multiple in a single chase vs someone who has accessibility issues with tracking?
And believe it or not, there used to be survivor perks that completely removed killer powers. You used to be able to sabo Trapper traps, and it was removed because that was an absolutely stupid idea, especially since only 1 of 4 needed to bring it, and if more did, they just erased his power even faster and more efficiently.
-
@AbsoluteMeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975620#Comment_3975620
Do you feel the same when a killers powers negate entire survivor builds or is this a one way situation?
Are there 4 killers per 1 survivor?
-
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975761#Comment_3975761
By addressed, do you mean they say "we hear you" and do absolutely nothing? And where exactly is the line drawn? Many people are scared of being attacked by dogs and, unlike spider fears (since most spiders are harmless to humans), they might have actually had a dog attack experience in their life. Did they factor that in to Houndmaster, a fairly recent killler? What about Chucky and doll fears? What about Blight and needle fears? I imagine the amount of people with these fears being so intense they can't play this very fake looking game would be extremely low. Pandering to this one specific fear doesn't make a lot of sense to me when they continue to release other common triggers. The argument of not adding spiders won't make anyone who's already here leave grinds the game to a halt, because everything is someone's intense fear.
They're generally radio silent on anything having to do with accessibility unless its a fire they need to put out. There have been a few crumbs about things like allowing aura colors to be changed (something that has been recommended as an option for years, and should be relatively easy to implement) but they rarely even bother with posts about hearing players' concerns. I'm going to be completely honest, if you're trying to fall back onto a slippery slope argument, you've already forgotten what I specified earlier, once something is in the game, you have to put in extra work to "fix" it. You avoid that work by not introducing it in the first place. I am very consistent about this every time it comes up, and regularly offer practical ideas on a case by case basis for them to try to lead things in the right direction, accessibility is not about being crabs in a bucket.
The argument of not adding spiders won't make anyone who's already here leave grinds the game to a halt, because everything is someone's intense fear.Again, this is why I wasn't even getting into what effects phobias actually have on people, I kept it strictly to a business standpoint. Even if you can't understand any of the physical or mental aspects, you should at least be able to understand the importance of not alienating players who are part of the reason your game has even existed for nearly a decade just for something some people find neat. You can argue about things like potential profit vs player retention, but you lose a LOT more goodwill than you gain within a community when you disregard existing players like that. You're supposed to reward retention in a community, not spite it.
-
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975746#Comment_3975746
I haven't followed it closely but most of what I've seen is people feeling about the same way I already expressed, though they're expresing is often a bit more blunt. There's a very easy to find Reddit post with over a thousand comments that have quite a lot of agreement on the issue, many from people with this specifc fear. If you took every anxiety into account than there'd be no game. It's a game where innocent people get murdered in horrible ways by a variety of monsters over and over, forever. Arachnophobia is one specific fear in dbd's ocean of fears.
But I have no problem with addressing phobias. I actually think it'd be cool if you could go to the settings and opt out of being paired with one killer for that reason. Not sure how you'd keep people from doing it for killers they just don't like though. I have my own deep fear. It gives me intense—sometimes crippling—anxiety. I don't call it a phobia because fears and phobias aren't the same, and I've never had a proper diagnosis. It's also in the game, yet here I am, experiencing it regularly.
The easiest way to address this would be to removed DC penalties so as soon as you hear the music for the killer that triggers you, you can just leave.
The issues concerning Plague and Clown get addressed most times it comes up, which just in case you just haven't seen it come up, the argument is that when elements are already in the game, they require extra work to accommodate (which still doesn't get done, and is long overdue.) If you continue adding more already knowing the issues they introduce, you are telling those customers that you do not care about their money. People who want spiders in the game are more likely to be retained regardless of their absence than people unable to deal with them being able to stick it through as continuous players. This applies to all accessibility concerns regarding mechanics and elements.
Edit: This isn't even getting into concepts like psychosomatic reactions that can accompany phobias, the difference between safe and unsafe horror, or even just the difference between good and bad adrenal responses. Even from a business standpoint, you make these decisions early in a game's life or not at all. But especially not after billions of blood points across years of matches.
-
I kinda consider the fog vial a trust threshold. They understand the importance of accessibility regarding core features to the game, the whole situation around the visual TR included a lot of (what now looks like) virtue signaling about how it wasn't fair for hard of hearing players to need to use spine chill to not face a disproportionate weakness regarding its importance as an audio cue. Now we have an item that not only causes audio/visual issues, it can be used every 60 seconds by up to 4 survivors, almost every perk that could even be used to compensate specifically does nothing against it, and it has an addon that makes the opacity worse than a PS1 game trying to hide distance rendering. I get they wanted to recycle an idea they already tried in an event, but they didn't even fix the long standing bugs that were present in every single iteration of it. I feel like you could make a lot of cases for or against their direction regarding various facets, but this item kinda reinforces that they only care about accessibility when they get under fire for it. I don't mean that maliciously, its just a lesson that absolutely should have been learned in this very game's history.
-
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975604#Comment_3975604
There's been a lot of discussion about it amongst the player base, with people not wanting a spider killer for that reason. I recall hearing that BHVR was taking that into account as an accessibility issue but I can't confirm it, but I've heard that they cited that reason in the grapevine quite a bit. I've just never seen the words from them myself.
It's an absurd idea though. This is a horror game and quite a lot of common fears and anxieties are amply on display with characters like Blight and Clown.
Either you haven't been reading the discussions on the issue, or you're picking and choosing only the things you agree with and the ones you can attack. Its fine if you don't care about accessibility issues, but this is a game that people have been devoting up to nearly a decade on. You can't make those decisions lightly, and if you refuse to even bother remembering the arguments, I'm glad you don't have a say.
-
@Shroompy said:
who said survivors are 80% of the playerbase?
Bigger ratios help them with the trolley dilemma.
-
The thing about accessibility issues is that they tend to affect individual players to different degrees. I'm honestly happy you aren't affected as much by the item, but others aren't so lucky.
-
@OriginalBlendett said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974632#Comment_3974632
Try throwing on bloodhound, it's not that hard to track.
Oh, ok, good to know thats all I need for my impairment to not be disproportionately impacted by this item.
-
@OriginalBlendett said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974617#Comment_3974617
What? No I'm saying you can bring perks and stuff to help with tracking not just dodge the lobby. Lobby dodging is annoying.
It blocks aura perks, diminishes visuals and audio and hides scratch marks. The only tracking perks or addons that can even help are ones that would give you either killer instinct or ones that give auxiliary info that is then used to track. So whispers and spies, but what else? Need to know so that I can decide what 2-3 other perks I'm allowed to run now.
-
@OriginalBlendett said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974598#Comment_3974598
If killers were not able to fully see and plan out exactly how to counter survivors in the lobby I would agree but unless they remove that ability from killers I don't really see this as an issue. And you don't even need a perk to counter it you can just follow blood trails or use basic game sense to counter it.
This is the second topic I've seen where someone has tried to use lobby dodging as some type of valid form of opting out of this item. That is not a valid form of opting out in any case, let alone one of an item that can be equipped by up to 4 players and reused multiple times per match on a cooldown.
If you think it only affects "game sense," then you don't understand the issues it causes for people with hearing or vision issues. Or you just don't care.
-
@OriginalBlendett said:
Or if you see someone bringing them and have issues with tracking you can bring perks and add-ons to help with that? Spies from the shadow, something that makes you undetectable to help you get the first hit quickly so you can follow the blood trail also helps.
It blocks aura perks and scratch marks, so that takes out almost every single one short of stuff like whispers. Also I thought we didn't like needing a perk to counter x, let alone when it affects something as crucial as tracking? Especially when it comes to accessibility, you know, like spine chill?
-
@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972754#Comment_3972754
Well the 'best' version of a med kit was never affected by Franklins because syringes and styptics don't care about charges so what rarity exactly ARE you complaining about?
All I personally ever bring to matches outside of event items during events are brown items because I don't play this game like a job enough to be showering in iridescent or purple items and addons. Most people don't.
Franklins draining charges affected stacked medkits because you still need at least a few charges to use the addons. Draining them entirely rendered them ineffective, which also had a secondary effect of encouraging survivors to be greedy and go back for them sooner than later.
-
@Good_Pancake said:
3-6% of matches were against a 4 man SWF. This data, even though it's quite old, is still relevant to this day since the average party size doesn't change by a massive amount over the years.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/61114/community-community-data-requests
Please spark some debates in here
Whats there to debate? We don't have data on party sizes outside of vague guesses based on a few extremely outdated stats.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971407#Comment_3971407
Are you for reals comparing comp DBD to the Olympics?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971415#Comment_3971415
Pinnacles.
And it's not a reasonable assumption, because it assumes the absolutely best players in the world, would obviously want to play in comp DBD. But it's still a fact that comp DBD is still a niche group of people, and there's zero evidence that the absolute best players in the world would want to join this group.
and there's zero evidence that the absolute best players in the world would want to join this group.But is there any evidence that the best players in the world wouldn't want to join that group? The nature of competition is not only in personal skill, but one's ability to adapt to opposing skill. The average caliber of player is going to be higher, therefore each player is generally getting the most experience against similarly high caliber players. You're kinda leaning way too hard into the possibly of some kind of DBD Will Hunting out there, which while possible, is less probable than the best player being among players who regularly experience curated high level play.
I'm not even saying I agree with either stance, since it's not really something thats quantifiable, just that claiming that the best player is more likely to be from a competitive scene is a more reasonable assessment than claiming they aren't.