Rulebreaker
Rulebreaker
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welp. Glad to know learning artist has paid off for us.
Snark aside, these are MUCH better than having things like 4 deaths in basement.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726205#Comment_3726205
Nope, was way before that. They had a Trapper and survivor next to each other.
The one youare thinking about was the survivor hitbox while standing and crouched to show why hatchets could "hit" a survivors head but pass through without.
Having goldfish memory(ies) suck sometimes
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725539#Comment_3725539
The messed up part of it this was known forever ago but the Devs went out of their way to claim they were the same size. Even to go as far to show the characters pill shape box during the old Dev streams. Think it was sometime after these forums was launched when they admitted survivor hitboxes were smaller.
Wasn't that to show survivors were all the same size or something about huntress hatchets?
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@Brightened said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3720747#Comment_3720747
Yeah let me just stop and grab an EMP in the middle of a chase.
Why didn't you grab one before?
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We still don't see it as skill removed as even if they know the killers heading for them, they need skill to avoid being seen by the killer, which direction theyre coming from, and yada yada. Maybe if they relied on it we'd agree but what we see from survivors and when we're in a SWF (admittedly our friends are rather more relaxed than some SWFs) its more of a bonus (supplement?) than outright replacement for skill. But at this point we think its going to end with our views different.
Maybe we're wording it poorly. We're not ignoring the point (well since the last post at least), our response was that SWFs aren't that much a significant advantage. We do not deny they are and advantage, but its not like they completely break the game (despite how hard they try or how much people complain).
"It's up to the kill to set up for the survivor to make a mistake, but whether the survivor falls for it is up to them. You are
relianton the survivors making mistakes, regardless of how well you play, not the other way around. If both sides play perfectly, you lose as killer."We got thoughts on this, but that would probably derail from either of our points.
There's 3 of us actually.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725539#Comment_3725539
Wow okay. Thank you all for answering. So about point 3… how much of an angle can a Survivor lean into the wall before it slows their move speed down? It’s not 45 degrees is it?
Think it depends on the loop in question. We have it on instinct so any exact information on execution isn't going to be super reliable from us. Defiantly not 45 though.
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- Yes survivors have smaller boxes than most killers (think the only exception is Chucky and Victor). They can hug loops tighter and cut corners better than killers.
- It makes some difference (couldn't tell you how much truly). It maybe may make a difference in bout 1/5 matches but that's a simple guess.
- Yes you need to be careful though for reasons Dragon Master Darren said.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725421#Comment_3725421
"But does not having info translate to not having skill? The point was
you can make them make mistakes as killer. As long as they're human,
survivors are capable of messing up which as killer we feel we need to
make them do. The scenic route surprisingly works more often than not,
admittedly we think it's solely due to people thinking they know
everything that is going to happen and can't handle something different."I'm not sure what your question has to do with what I said if you could clarify.
Yes humans can make mistakes, but picking your swf team drastically lowers that chance. Significantly lower than the rate of mistakes the game is balanced around. Just because SWF can make mistakes, doesn't detract from my core point in this all, which is that it is an extremely large unfair advantage that the game isn't balanced around. The game is balanced around solo queue and getting some teammates that will make mistakes, SWF throws that ratio of weaker links out.
Some small exceptions don't make a rule untrue in other words.
"Depending on the map you may or may not be watched 24/7. Realistically
someone probably has the heartbeat on them (unless undetectable) and can
call that but eyes are another matter. At least to the point of all the
time. As a general rule we always just assume someone is watching and
play according (or not, being predictable leaves with less)."This is why contrary to popular opinion I think indoor maps are some of the healthiest in design. This is because it puts solo and swf on a more even foot since they can't visible see you as well to keep tabs on you and pass it to teammates. This also hinders the hold w game play that is unhealthy for the game as you aren't always sure what direction they are coming from. Most outdoor maps you can see the killer coming a mile away.
"See, the thing is you can absolutely waste pallets even in coordinated
swfs. We see people fail at this though because they rely on stacking
those 4 perks mentioned. The focus only on "must get down to slowdown
gen" without ever bothering to harass anyone else. Drop pallet, break
pallet, go harass the next, get pallet, break pallet, repeat. Its an
effective cycle on most maps that punishes predropping at the first sign
of killer. "I disagree. This is only realistic on certain killers that can get fast hits with anti loop or high map mobility. This generally does not apply to m1 killers which are a large subset of the killer options.
If pre dropping isn't working then the group is generally speaking slacking on gen focus or it's one of the higher end killers. I'm generally referencing this thought process assuming a standard m1 killer as that's more often the rule than the exception.
The first is simply asking if survivors having a lack of information equates to them having skill. [He worded it wrong in the original post] You said: "most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the info is removing a ton of skill component." Does having this info give survivors skill?
The second was more clarifying reinforcing the point, which is either being ignored or misunderstood. You as the killer need to force the survivors into making either a mistake or a lose lose situation. That said your correct in that it doesn't address your core point, again phone text is small so might have missed it. W will say SWF isn't some super monster as even they have someone who's the weakest link but that's an us opinion.
We do like our indoor maps~
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that last one.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725225#Comment_3725225
I probably should've been more specific on my wording. When I said removing skill I didn't mean entirely, just that it removes a lot. So while there are some skill components remaining of course, it does remove a lot of the skill. Yes most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the info is removing a ton of skill component. So the mechanism of action doesn't really matter if the end result is the same. The info can be incorrect yes, but that's again just hoping the players are bad and make mistakes. That gets lessened the higher mmr you go, especially if you're picking your team and I don't like things balanced around just hoping my opponent plays bad. I mean I could be like yeah Nurse is fine and easy to beat if they play bad. The survivors gonna be like..okay..and what if she's not? What do I do with that? lol. They could do the scenic route but I feel like that leans more towards impractical and less realistic or reliable. Realistically they've usually got general eyes on you between one of them and then you're also wasting a lot of extra time. It can work, just not really something reliable, especially since you of course don't have eyes on all them so you don't necessarily know where they're watching you. So scenic route could actually be right where they're watching you. "Wasting/Burning up pallets" also isn't really a thing. It's only thing if you have bad teammates that don't know gen efficiency, which you probably aren't having an issue with since you picked your squad. There's in most cases enough pallets that you can have all the gens done before you run out, especially since all the pre dropping has prevented any Pops/PR/Deadmans/Grim ect from activating or them having to waste time rescuing or healing, so you've had no slow down on gens happening at all, just pure gen rush. This is why you see most really good groups pre drop everything in general, regardless of the killer perks, because they know this.
I don't mind rambling, I do it all the time on here lol
So this is harder to read on a phone so we're going to split it.
When I said removing skill I didn't mean entirely, just that it removes a lot. So while there are some skill components remaining of course, it does remove a lot of the skill. Yes most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the info is removing a ton of skill component. So the mechanism of action doesn't really matter if the end result is the same.
Fair enough
The info can be incorrect yes, but that's again just hoping the players are bad and make mistakes. That gets lessened the higher mmr you go, especially if you're picking your team and I don't like things balanced around just hoping my opponent plays bad. I mean I could be like yeah Nurse is fine and easy to beat if they play bad. The survivors gonna be like..okay..and what if she's not? What do I do with that? lol. They could do the scenic route but I feel like that leans more towards impractical and less realistic or reliable. Realistically they've usually got general eyes on you between one of them and then you're also wasting a lot of extra time. It can work, just not really something reliable, especially since you of course don't have eyes on all them so you don't necessarily know where they're watching you.
But does not having info translate to not having skill? The point was you can make them make mistakes as killer. As long as they're human, survivors are capable of messing up which as killer we feel we need to make them do. The scenic route surprisingly works more often than not, admittedly we think it's solely due to people thinking they know everything that is going to happen and can't handle something different.
Depending on the map you may or may not be watched 24/7. Realistically someone probably has the heartbeat on them (unless undetectable) and can call that but eyes are another matter. At least to the point of all the time. As a general rule we always just assume someone is watching and play according (or not, being predictable leaves with less).
"Wasting/Burning up pallets" also isn't really a thing. It's only thing if you have bad teammates that don't know gen efficiency, which you probably aren't having an issue with since you picked your squad. There's in most cases enough pallets that you can have all the gens done before you run out, especially since all the pre dropping has prevented any Pops/PR/Deadmans/Grim ect from activating or them having to waste time rescuing or healing, so you've had no slow down on gens happening at all, just pure gen rush. This is why you see most really good groups pre drop everything in general, regardless of the killer perks, because they know this.
See, the thing is you can absolutely waste pallets even in coordinated swfs. We see people fail at this though because they rely on stacking those 4 perks mentioned. The focus only on "must get down to slowdown gen" without ever bothering to harass anyone else. Drop pallet, break pallet, go harass the next, get pallet, break pallet, repeat. Its an effective cycle on most maps that punishes predropping at the first sign of killer.
As an aside good groups and pre drop don't fit together in our books, but thats an us thing. If we missed something we apologize as again, really hard to make sure we got everything on a phone screen.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725226#Comment_3725226
Oh man… are we really going here? Please tell me a survivor leaving lobby is the same as a killer. PLEASE…
"Survivors leaving lobby is the same as killer"
Do we get a cookie now?
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725214#Comment_3725214
They don't have to be better and know how to use something as simple as, "he left me and is heading straight for you", "his hex is in shack", "I've got deliverance just sit on the gens", "pre drop, he has Spirit Fury", ect, ect. I could go on.
Simply spoonfuls of game information that they wouldn't know otherwise. Most of it does not require skill to utilize. A lot of it however does remove skill as it takes away their need for as much situational awareness of killers coming, perks catching them off guard and not playing around something potentially being in play, macro knowledge of who should/is doing what and how they should react on that, ect.
Fair, but to us thats just info. They still have to sneak in and break any totems called, will end up burning all the pallets by predropping and not looping atleast a little spirit fury or no, knowing not to get off gens because of deliverance is just info (which would be nice to see on hud). They do still need to pay attention as called out info can be incorrect, ex we hook someone go one direction then take the scenic route to surprise another area.
{Apologies if we maybe rambling but we're currently very bored}
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725205#Comment_3725205
It's true that the interactions can be more enjoyable. My focus on the game is fair matches, skill expression and the better player winning because I take games competitively. To me SWF messes with this. Since the game isn't balanced for SWF I can play significantly better than them and still lose from all the unintended advantages SWF provides. It removes individual skill from the game. The better player losing I find frustrating. This is the same reason I dislike tunneling, camping, or NOED. They also can remove skill from the game and allow a player objectively playing worse to still win the game instead of the better player. Not saying this is always the case, but many times it is.
This causes games where this side has SWF and that side is tunneling/camping ect and it leaves both sides doing/using things that remove skill and balance from the game.
Out of curiosity, how does SWFs remove individual skill? How we see it, while SWFs can give critical information, being in one doesn't magically make survivors better if they don't know how to use it.
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Alot of the cast is iconic horror villains. Xeno, Chucky, Freddy, Meyers, Bubba, technically Amanda (representative of SAW), Ghostface's face, Pyramid Head, Nemi and Wesker. Makes sense to us to have Jason.
Edit: forgot about ghost girl Sadako
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Giving up on first hook (assuming at the start) will 90+% of the time wreck the game for the other survivors (how they actually feel varies) and depending on the killer take away an exciting match (granted if the killers an [Beep] then [Boop] them). Lobby shopping has the potential of making a match miserable for one side or the other but doesn't guarantee that the survivor side is screwed over by a lone potato.
Leaving is also more of a issue because people are actually IN the match and ready to play when someone gives up compared to lobby shopping where its more akin to "searching for a match". People notice it, but its like "ehh whatever" feeling compared to giving up where its "For [censored] sake really?!". Lastly, to throw salt in the wounds you don't even get a bot to try and help.
Both are bad, but giving up (at the start) is arguably worse and has become more and more common.
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If we're going overall strength we say Artist, Huntress, Plague/Unknown (effectively tied), Slinger, Trickster
Artist is versatile and not as hindered by maps as most long range killers.
Huntress is just straight up good with only maps putting her under artist.
Plague and Unknown are tied for us. Plague is better with specific builds while Unknown can run pretty much whatever it wants and be fine.
Slinger has little map pressure but it's pretty inevitable to go down if he's a good shot. Slow but sure.
Trickster is the most stylish, but needs many hits and can more easily be stalled (atleast by others, we suck against him).
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We've seen it every now and again (tonight had 1 too so thats somethin).
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@deifi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3721485#Comment_3721485
First off, here's the stats
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/433
You're right, Nurse as a whole is not above 60% kill threshold, but SM, Sadako, Cenobite, and Freddy are. You can argue the 1,2,3% differences but there is missing kill data from disconnects.
The poster made 3 recommendations to "fight back". I agree that you can't essentially give survivors a "gun" or "weapon". However, they mention
"So, if you're gonna give the killers guns and throwable objects while making them faster than the survivors give the survivors more and better add Ons, powers and or abilities."
add-ons and better "abilities" or perks are in the spirit of the game. But, behavior did also, for example, add fire turrets for xenomorph.
Now to say that Killers suffer from the same "mistakes" as survivors is significantly different. You die if you make a mistake as a survivor. A killer, makes a mistake can adjust, or pivot to another survivor or generator. The survivors runs out of resources e.g. no more pallets, whereas the killer can mess up for 4 gens and close the game within the last 1 gen or powered gate. Matter of fact, most killer close the gap by simply camping or zoning a survivor out for 3 hook phases.
Statistically, 60% kill rate means that on average 1.8 survivors escape per game. Now, I disagree with the 60% kill threshold, it should be 50-55%. It should on average, 2 survivors that escape. Which is why these threads exist.
You do know "Slasher Horror-movie esque games", no it's a genre of horror. There are slasher killers and fear/thriller killers e.g. Sadako. It also does not mean you unbalance what is at the end of the day… a GAME. Outlast Trials for example is one where it is balanced and rewards skill. They can easily pivot DBD to apply more horror aspects than make it miserable to play for survivors.
Also, you don't have to blitz through survivors lives, I find much joy when I run Scratched Mirror Meyer build where I probably average 2 kills per game but the thrill of seeing survivors panic when I pop out of no where is hilarious.
Alien is also a terrible example, the survivors and Ripley were given weapons - ironically the fire turrets they gave survivors, to the original posters request of a "weapon" (what a fresh concept for survivors) can also be explored to further balance the game.
We forgot that those were posted there, thx.
Now ask why is Merchant, Spooky Girl, and Freddy so high while commonly agreed power houses (there are unreasonables out there) such as nurse is below them. We partially mentioned it with "The stats also don't take into account the survivors who give up by running into the killer, swing on hook to die, and leaving the rest of the team as easy prey for the killer who gets their kill rate increased~ Honestly, merchant is" [the idiot forgot to finish his sentence] but basically their kill rate is more than likely inflated due to many simply giving up. We've yet to have 3 matches against SM since the 3 gen system came out where atleast 1 person didn't quit in some form (DC, swing on hook, sat and did nothing, etc) and if 1 quits at the start, as stated before the rest are very likely going to follow unless the killer decides to let them go. Also the main point of: "Lastly we feel your going to need to reword that last one." was so you dont include nurse for buffs. Your words here: "That's fine, but buff the killers who are below that average and nerf the over-powered ones to that percentile."
The poster made 3 recommendations to "fight back". I agree that you can't essentially give survivors a "gun" or "weapon". However, they mention
"So, if you're gonna give the killers guns and throwable objects while making them faster than the survivors give the survivors more and better add Ons, powers and or abilities."
add-ons and better "abilities" or perks are in the spirit of the game. But, behavior did also, for example, add fire turrets for xenomorph.
Cool. Absolutely not related to the topic we're having. Doesn't fit this either: "The original argument is whether or not it is agreeable to level the playing field by nerfing killers." as they're saying they should have some of those things because killers have the things they said.
Now to say that Killers suffer from the same "mistakes" as survivors is significantly different. You die if you make a mistake as a survivor. A killer, makes a mistake can adjust, or pivot to another survivor or generator. The survivors runs out of resources e.g. no more pallets, whereas the killer can mess up for 4 gens and close the game within the last 1 gen or powered gate. Matter of fact, most killer close the gap by simply camping or zoning a survivor out for 3 hook phases.
As survivor you have rechargeable health states, then you have hook states, and then ways to prevent the loss of the later. You die as a survivor when you make enough mistakes to exhaust all of your hook states. A mistake will first cost you a health state. If you escape the killer or the killer leaves this health state is healed. A second will cost another health state putting you on the dirt and again if the killer leaves or by some miracle escape on the ground, your health states can be reset. Once your hooked then you've lost something you can not reset in a hook state but you also have another one in you before you die once you get hooked a third time (assuming they save you). Flashlights, flashbangs, sabos, and sometimes enough body blocking can also prevent the loss of a hook state when you have decent teammates effectively giving back a health state.
As killer mistakes cost time which is usually progress on gens (the rough killer equivalent of health states. Think of the total gen and gate progress as 2 health states if you would) and when their finished you can not reset them (hook states). Then comes the gates which can go either in the killers favor or detriment depending on RNG. The killer "dies" once all the survivors escape the trial in anyway (yes the killer "dies" when he kills the survivors but they die "victorious" more or less).
It goes both ways. A survivor making a mistake can learn from it and attempt to prevent a repeat just like the killer can adjust. The survivors have pallets and windows but the killer is on a constant timer that they have to fight control over with 4 survivors. We don't deny tunneling has gotten out of hand but thats time for survivors to burn on gens (and if they are camping even more emphasis on gens)
Statistically, 60% kill rate means that on average 1.8 survivors escape per game. Now, I disagree with the 60% kill threshold, it should be 50-55%. It should on average, 2 survivors that escape. Which is why these threads exist.
Your opinion is your own, but others have different ones and the devs have said somewhere (don't know if its changed recently) that they wanted to aim for a 60% kill rate and since they develop the game…
You do know "Slasher Horror-movie esque games", no it's a genre of horror. There are slasher killers and fear/thriller killers e.g. Sadako. It also does not mean you unbalance what is at the end of the day… a GAME. Outlast Trials for example is one where it is balanced and rewards skill. They can easily pivot DBD to apply more horror aspects than make it miserable to play for survivors.
Also, you don't have to blitz through survivors lives, I find much joy when I run Scratched Mirror Meyer build where I probably average 2 kills per game but the thrill of seeing survivors panic when I pop out of no where is hilarious.
Now we'll admit we're abit lost as to where this paragraph came from so apologies if were missing the point. The GAME is in the vein of trying to emulate the feeling of a slasher horror movie but its its own beast. Sure it would be nice for more horror elements but we don't think weapons or powers for the prey are the way to go (ironic enough Vecna is effectively bringing tools for the survivors so ppl are getting their wish anyway). Your can list things you find unfun but its subjective just like how in our opinion the unfun aspects are how everyone's being predictable (meta slaves, tunneling, meta slaves who tunnel, wanabe bullies) and Object (our personal berserk button).
We're also starting to believe your projecting your hate of killer players on to us (subconsciously or not)…flattered personally but if its true we'll kindly ask you to stop.
Alien is also a terrible example, the survivors and Ripley were given weapons - ironically the fire turrets they gave survivors, to the original posters request of a "weapon" (what a fresh concept for survivors) can also be explored to further balance the game.
Admittedly we haven't seen the original Alien in years so we're abit hazy.
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@deifi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717993#Comment_3717993
The original argument is whether or not it is agreeable to level the playing field by nerfing killers.
People choose avatar/profile pics based on a reflection of their interests and likes, 1400+ posts and you have artist as your avatar pic. I would bet my bank account you play killer more and are biased towards that role - which as I alluded to based on your profile/avatar.
Back to the core of the argument - The original poster said that SOME killers are overpowered, I agree - there's clearly statistics that Nurse, Skull Merchant and Chuckie have over 70%+ kill rates. This doesn't even account for DC's and the handful of killers that allow survivors to leave.
Those killers need a 10-15% nerf. SURVIVORS have a very fine line to win. One mistake and they lose a health state, Killers are afforded time. Just because killers get frustrated that they're losing a loop doesn't mean they cannot close the gap as more more and pallets become unavailable and there's less generators to defend.
It is 1v4, but let's look at it this way, survivors cannot FIGHT BACK. It's like giving someone supernatural powers and a weapon versus 4 normal humans with a medkit and flashlight. When people say "Oh it's 1v4" no - it's 4 un-armed people against a supernatural being with a weapon.
Killers go into this game expecting auto-wins. It's like murdering on average 2-3 people a game isn't enough to satisfy their bloodlust, while a survivor has to on-average participate in NUMEROUS games before they can escape a game in the current patch state.
Behavior Interactive as a whole has stated the kill-rate should be closer to 60%. That's fine, but buff the killers who are below that average and nerf the over-powered ones to that percentile.
The original argument is to have ways for survivors to fight back and bonuses of having them while simultaneously saying that killers are making the game unfun for survivors and since killers have "guns and throwable objects while making them faster than the survivors" that survivors SHOULD have these methods to fight back. Nowhere do the 3 of us see anything like "The original argument is whether or not it is agreeable to level the playing field by nerfing killers." Please show us.
OUR original post was snark asking if they know what kind of game this is. Then you make a counter argument. Then we responded on how many slasher movies have "happy endings" with some examples. You proceed to call us biased and then go for "the good guy winning" route. The one responding got ticked and proceeded to throw more examples.
Now we are here.
First: trying to measure 3 people off 1 pic is going to end in disaster. Second: Currently we have been playing survivors much more than killer as those achievements and rift quests are what we need. While we do favor playing the killer, we are unbiased as we're well aware as to the BS on both sides. Reason we're bird-lady? We like spooky and pretty things. She fits both. Since your at best only half right does this mean we get your bank account or only half?
The stats also don't take into account the survivors who give up by running into the killer, swing on hook to die, and leaving the rest of the team as easy prey for the killer who gets their kill rate increased~ Honestly, merchant is
You realize that killers ALSO have a fine line as one mistake cost them as much. As that survivor is being chased the 3 other survivors are (ideally) working on the gens coming closer and closer to powering the gate and opening the doors. Both sides can come back from a bad start, it's only harder on the survivor end cause they rely on a team.
It is 1v4, but let's look at it this way, survivors cannot FIGHT BACK. It's like giving someone supernatural powers and a weapon versus 4 normal humans with a medkit and flashlight. When people say "Oh it's 1v4" no - it's 4 un-armed people against a supernatural being with a weapon.
Man, almost like the movie Alien or something...also that's still technically a 4 v 1 as it's a singular being (exception of the Twins). Yes survivors can't explicitly fight back, they need to AVOID the big bad killer who will usually kill them if given half a chance or outsmart/play them and lose chase. Now we admit this is going to be rude to ask but: You do know this is the "slasher horror movie" esque game right?
No not all killers expect auto wins as that's factually incorrect. Only the unreasonable from either end expect auto wins. Now we need you to remember that the devs are trying for a 60% kill rate. With how many survivors are playing at a given moment, its very VERY likely that yes its going to take numerous games to escape as a individual survivor.
Lastly we feel your going to need to reword that last one. Nurse is below the 60% last we checked.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3720994#Comment_3720994
Blindness as a counter doesn't really work. Most killer blindness addons are bad on top of taking the addon slot of a mandatory addon. That being said I love yoichi's fishing net and the singu blindness one. Those are easier to justify than the pig one which only works when they're trapped and the Wesker on that kicks on.... When infection is fully reached? I'm just reading this. That's awful. Perks are also more miss than hit. You got third seal as your best option which is rather sad, considering that it's going to burst into flames in the first thirty seconds of the match. Unless you want to run noted powerful perk septic touch. The others don't really do much against windows.
Comparing info perks to game slowdown is one of the farthest reaches I've seen. Technically anything that stymies your opponent is slowing down the game. Being able to find a dude gets him off gens and slows down the game. Running that logic to it's natural conclusion sort of dilutes the term as a useful framework for discussion. Windows is an information perk.
Well we get A LOT of milage out of blindness. Most are actually fine for the purpose of removing windows in a chase and just about every killer doesn't need add ons (we admit some suck to play as without but a majority are fine with or without and all viable). We have seen an anti heal build including septic touch that worked well, but that aside as we said also there's also other ways to make windows useless.
Hence the snark, but as they were comparing windows to the upcoming perks being nerfed, we showed the difference.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3720856#Comment_3720856
The time to find one is negligible as they are near or on the way to objectives.
The killer doesn't look at a totem and it shatters into a cloud of dust. They have to find it, navigate to it and snuff it.
Seems like you are kinda biased, because why "time to find one is negligible" but only for survivors?
Boons also have sound+visual cue so finding booned totem is easier than finding dull one.
Maybe with basekit shattered hope.
I mean, ok? But how basekit shattered hope is going to solve all the issues you've mentioned?
If we may put it a more favorable light: Only 1 survivor out of 4 needs to spend that time which means one would leave every survivor with the boon while 2-3 others have been working. Since most totem spawns are easily memorized or if a map or perk is in play, this time is often short unless they go somewhere like the top of coal tower or Eyre of crows. If they wanted to snuff the boon the killer needs to go and find it, which could be anywhere as they don't know. If it's in a spot like the top of eye of crows, the single killer has to waste the time to get up there and snuff it while 4 survivors are working unimpeded. A single survivor can then relight it like at the start. Basically killers time is worth more cause there's only 1 killer v 4 survivors.
The shattered hope basket would remove the scenarios of survivors repeatedly lighting totems in spots like the top of the tower.
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...well first off, we applaud you for actually doing as you said you would which rises you above many we see.
Second, we admittedly have some trouble with understanding the picture…
Third we don't think (see point 2) we see the scenarios the others were describing
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This was an... interesting read…
{[We feel the need to put a disclaimer here mentioning we don't care about windows either way, but think the constant gripping is getting old}]
So first off we're going to point out blindness right off the bat. Aside from maybe a handful, killers generally have atleast 1 add on for blindness, and there are perks that afflict it.
Next, it combined with Lithe is no different than combining it with other perks. That's kinda the point of what an effective build should be, having perks that synergize with each other. As you also effectively point out if you mind game the survivors neither perk helps the survivor much.
By that logic, gens are being artificially extended by killers stacking slowdown which is why survivors bring things to artificially extend chases which…continues until someone figures out wether the chicken or the egg came first. Snark aside, aside from the points above, it's effectively a time investment thought process, loss progress now by burning resources, get much shorter chases later and make it back. Windows does nothing if there's nothing to use. Also it's generally within the killers power to herd survivors the direction they want to go which is something killers often need to learn.
We're seeing nerfs due to how strong they are and easy to proc in addition to usage for killer s. Pain res, Grim embrace, and pop requires hooks, something a killer will naturally be getting when against survivor of their caliber (so don't throw in "they do nothing if they can't catch survivors" as if they can't that's a skill issue on the killers end or map RNG in some cases) and buy one of the most precious resources in the game called time. Windows simply shows resources, it does nothing if they're not skill enough to use them effectively, the killer is clever enough to outsmart them, or if there's no resources period for various reasons. Lastly, we're starting the obvious of killer balances differently than survivors. Killers are each unique with various powers, survivors are skins and voices with perks stuffed in.
The very last paragraph is probably the one that makes sense to us as if BHVR is nerfing in part due to usage then windows is sticking out. However we do have a counterpoint: Windows is run often because being able to see what has been used while you're in chase is very helpful for solos as they aren't in a swf with pallet call outs.
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It seems we're the odd ones here.
As long as it doesn't self destruct on a survivor's death we're ok with 150-200% (no more though). After the Erpuption/Brine/Overcharge/Pain res meta, our discord server almost unanimously agreed the tinkerer/ruin/undying was better as it could at least be stopped relatively easy.
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We like it. We will point it'll also work similar to empathy in that if the closest survivor is being chased it effectively tells where the killer is.
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Generally unpredictability and stealth work best for us. She can't chase what she don't see and being unpredictable means she has to guess what we do too. As for your validation problem, we really don't have any help sorry.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3719603#Comment_3719603
NGL mate idk if both of our brains were fried or not last night writing the comments but my first para is exactly what you said minus the future perk nerf aspect LOL
If nerfed enough then maybe it would fit the criteria for butchered but as it currently stands DH does not despite the nerfs. It may or may not continue to be strong but it currently is despite everything.I still believe perspective has to play a role in it (as mentioned above), you believe it's not classed as butchered yet then that's how you feel, I can still use it but I'm borderline for it atm but I know it's strong. At the same time I also know people who can't use it at all and define it as butchered so.
I believe the dev's look at the most used perks because they're the most effective to play the game at that current time, then slowly balance the game around them to force players to look for alternative builds, due to that other perks suffer heavily.
I have killers who look at me while standing at the hook then swing at the hook and then look back at me and start nodding lmaooo, you'd think they were farming by that description but no, they're just another type of demon on DBD, either you get lucky and destroy them or make a mistake and then get basement hooked 🤣
I've not seen any tunnelling today, yet.. but I have seen 2 games back to back where both players rage quit at 5 gens, still managed to escape somehow lmao
Perhaps, we were effectively dead and not paying to much attention. As of now we agree it's probably a perspective thing and neither is going to change their minds.
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Unless there's a decent reason (adept, challenge, you have a reasonable idea of where the last is and go check), we think it's stupid as there no thrill anymore. Smart survivors will leave the slugged to bleed out and since most who slug for the 4k stay extra close to the slug, you've effectively wasted 4 minutes staring at a slug.
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Funny enough, he looks accurate to the DnD books
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@AnchorTea said:
In all seriousness the animation is a bit too silly. It needs a more serious style
But why though? Bards are supose to brighten the mood.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3719313#Comment_3719313
I believe you don't see DH fitting into the criteria given because of the following:
Now that I completely understand what you mean by satisfactory, would it be fair to say; since you see DH as "tank a hit", you don't see any drawbacks to it regardless of any past or future nerfs done because it's still operational. Due to that, you don't quite feel that the correlation between 'nerfed' and 'butchered' would ever be applicable in this instance to each other because it will always stay as a strong perk?
My experience with DH:
In my games I see DH probably 1:35 games and even then I'm being generous. I'm assuming it's different for you, but that's how it is for me (Console). Just today alone I have not seen DH once, (I've seen sabo probably about 15 times today). I've escaped almost all games back to back too so MMR definitely isn't the factor. I'm on EU servers as well so you know it's sweaty regardless of the game played.
The reason for mentioning usage:
I knew there would be discrepancies between usage and that was expected because we all have different experiences on games regardless of what it is (iirc someone else originally mentioned usage specifically, I'd have to check the thread, I'm fairly sure I never mentioned usage in the original comment or first, if I am wrong then I shall stand corrected), so that shouldn't even be in this particular discussion and that could also be causing you confusion on your end, just the nerf and butchered comparison).
Now that I completely understand what you mean by satisfactory, would it be fair to say; since you see DH as "tank a hit", you don't see any drawbacks to it regardless of any past or future nerfs done because it's still operational. Due to that, you don't quite feel that the correlation between 'nerfed' and 'butchered' would ever be applicable in this instance to each other because it will always stay as a strong perk?
Not quite. It currently is a strong perk (to us atleast) despite the nerfs which is why we don't think its "spoiled" let alone completely as its "performing" well (in most of our matches). If nerfed enough then maybe it would fit the criteria for butchered but as it currently stands DH does not despite the nerfs. It may or may not continue to be strong but it currently is despite everything.
In my games I see DH probably 1:35 games and even then I'm being generous. I'm assuming it's different for you, but that's how it is for me (Console). Just today alone I have not seen DH once, (I've seen sabo probably about 15 times today). I've escaped almost all games back to back too so MMR definitely isn't the factor. I'm on EU servers as well so you know it's sweaty regardless of the game played.
While we do see DH more, we will say again that usage rate doesn't matter to us (despite the devs seeming to heavily favor using that) as thats more of an indicator of if people like to run it or not, not the reason why they run it or how it does in their hands. Though as an aside how often is the tunneling? (NA is…..prolific tonight)
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This may be off topic but: What kind of killer would you like. Details to preferably.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3719214#Comment_3719214
I've scrolled up once earlier and I know for a fact I've missed replies 🤣
I believe my stats comment was in reply to your comments of:
Its performance is satisfactory and not seeing it doesn't translate to being spoiling it completely. Special emphasis on completely as while it was nerfed from its original form, it's still very good.Its still used and often at that. It works fine, still can extend chases if used correct, still can be baited... We don't see itThe stats comment was merely generally relative rather than specifically, it was more-so about how if data isn't collected over a long period of time it can be more prone to being misconstrued due to the many factors that can contribute to it, that's why I never went into further detail. Yes the same can be said for collecting data over a large period of time but it has less of a risk.
It was relevant because we were talking about DH and it's usage in stats, that's what made the comment relevant and how it mattered.
You have just said the following too: "
Nerf does not always equal butchered" (As you said prior with Nerf=/=butchered), which I do agree with, but in this case we have differences between if DH is or isn't. Maybe it could be due to the platform differences, do you play on PC or Console?I know on console there is still input delay, even with my high net speed, I haven't tried DBD on PC yet (even though I own one) so maybe because of the completely different experience on there it may possibly be the sole reason we can't find common ground here.
Ahh I think we miss communicated our point abit. What we meant by satisfactory was that it's usable, doesn't hinder the survivor, and does it's job (to us it's "tank a hit"). We didn't include anything about stats or data as we're focused on its operation, not how well others use it or how often (as let's be honest, LOTS fall flat trying to mimic streamers and such). How often it's used doesn't fully indicate if doesn't work, more of people don't like it for some reason or another.
We are focused on your given definition:
to spoil something completely by performing or dealing with it very badly"
What it seems like (an please keep in mind this is just what it seems like to us) that you are equating nerf and usage to butchered. Especially considering this line behind the definition:
ie it has been nerfed
We don't see common grounds due to us not thinking that DH fits in the criteria given.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718987#Comment_3718987
I mentioned the testing phase for the perk as it shows inflated stats directly after the nerf which is why that particular data can't really be reliable but weeks/months later can.
I still do not agree with Alice_pbg's counter argument as she has also missed out perspective.
Also, thanks for your eloquent response.
You didn't bother mentioning anything about stats (what kind, how it maters in this context, etc) though the 3 of us have been playing hot potato with the phone so we might have missed something.
We don't particularly care about the counter argument but more of the statement. Nerf does not always equal butchered, following many definitions (including the one you provided).
Takes a bow Buffy is a great teacher of talking about things
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718738#Comment_3718738
Would you say post nerf, players were still actively trying to use it? test out the changes etc, I know I was.
I think that no matter what changes happen to this perk players will still use it because there's no other perk like it in the game, and the mind games are just too fun when using it. I do also think that using this perk brought out the sweatyness of killers, which was fun to see because when you got out played it was usually in a serious way, which made you better overall.
I do agree that it doesn't seem as spoiled currently but from what it originally once was, it was indeed butchered due to having 3 nerfs to one perk (the reason I personally use that term), it took multiple attempts to nerf this perk too, so it was only natural some issues were going to arise with it.
Yes, but to be fair almost EVERYONE would be testing changes, cause things changed and they want to see what its like first hand.
Your beliefs are your own but thats also not the point. We are following the definition you gave and Deadhard does not fit.
to spoil something completely by performing or dealing with it very badly", ie it has been nerfed.As Alice_pbg effectively said above, Nerf =/= Butchered. Just because it got hit with a nerf bat, even repeatedly, does not mean its butchered (by this definition) since it still performs very well with survivors who know what their doing.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718720#Comment_3718720
I don't see it often in my lobbies anymore at all, maybe 1 in 35 games if I'm being generous. It requires a prerequisite before activation, it has a very small activation period and you have to time it just right, where as before it was very easy to use as well as all the other positives.
Fair enough if you don't see it but per your definition here:
@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718225#Comment_3718225
lol I just noticed the edit.
The term butchered means "to spoil something completely by performing or dealing with it very badly", ie it has been nerfed.
The term dislike means " to feel distaste for or hostility towards" or for simple terms, to hate it.
There is no correlation between the two, stop trying to find one.
PTB is on PC so only the PC audience is being taken into consideration when getting feedback (one sided feedback, you do the math)
This one here is also a fact LMAO
It doesn't really fit "butchered". Its performance is satisfactory and not seeing it doesn't translate to being spoiling it completely. Special emphasis on completely as while it was nerfed from its original form, it's still very good.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718698#Comment_3718698
Dead hard did get butchered, I was also the one to recommend that particular change, there was no way to physically nerf it in a healthy way either. It's in one of my old threads somewhere.
How exactly did it get butchered?
Your definition: "to spoil something completely by performing or dealing with it very badly".
Its still used and often at that. It works fine, still can extend chases if used correct, still can be baited... We don't see it
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Storytime 🎶
The last great chase one of us had was against a Nurse at Garden of Joy. The nurse probably wasn't a veteran, but she was good as she downed the others rather quickly (one was our friend who's generally our equal/better) but then it got to me. She kept thinking she knew what I was going to do when the sad truth is idk what I'm going to do until I do it. She couldn't seem to hit me after the first time, many near misses but no gold as it even got to the point where she panic swung at a rock (idk if it's truly panic but I like to think so).
We were under the impression that we hurt her pride or she wanted to practice as she did not stop even as she had to have known that gens were getting done. And so the last 3 gens got done while I'm crying "HURRY UP". The doors were opened and as I was still being chased I had to keep running between the doors till she caught me at the last minute or so.
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@deifi said:
You are now arguing semantics by throwing in words like "extremely" to happy endings". It's also quite obvious you are biased with "The Artist" as your avatar.
I never argued how many people died, the core ending of nearly every slash horror movie is that there are survivors that escape or survive. I merely stated survivor slasher horror movies end with the "good guy" winning in 90% of the movies. Then the sequels are just to perpetuate the IP for $$$.
I agree that going back to 50/50 is the accurate thing to do.
We are biased for liking how bird lady looks? Shocking. Not that you care but we do play survivor (more than killer atm as the last achievements we need are survivor). Wording is key. Otherwise people like us will play loophole abuse.
If most if not all our friends were killed by a boogieman we definitely wouldn't call that a happy end. Even removing "extremely". Taking a look back to Halloween, the (recent) sequels show a realistic view of what happens to that "good guy". Laurie becomes a paranoid wreck, her family goes through more trauma, and the "happy end" comes at the cost of a LOT of lives (Mikey has a pretty high body count for a normal guy without a gun)
{Apologies if he sounds a little ticked, but you did just immediately assume biased based on a profile pic...}
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@deifi said:
You do know, horror movies have more happy endings than not, right?
We must have different parameters for horror movie then. Halloween: A slaughter of most the main cast. Friday the 13th: A slaughter of the main cast. Evil Dead: Rule of 3. We don't know many "Slasher horror movies" that have extremely happy endings.
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You do know this is the "slasher horror movie" esque game right?
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@ABAEX said:
OMG, how hard it is?
Is good for survivor.
should I Draw a picture to explain why it good for survivor?
sure. would be amusing.
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If all you wish is to kill fast then Blight. Deathslinger is slower but more inevitable, Blight is chaotic speeding pinball of pain. Once you learn him, you'll kill extremely quick against most.
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We don't particularly care about windows but we see it as a "crutch" due to definition. A crutch is: "Something that provides help and support you depend on, often too much". Emphasis on too much as whenever one of us runs some blindness, we often see a noticeable deterioration in skill from survivors. Its a good perk, but survivors are relying on it like killers relying on stacked gen regression.
Again we don't care about it and never blamed it for a loss or some wild take like that, but when we see people call "crutch" on we kinda can't disagree atm.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716144#Comment_3716144
Thanks for the advice @Rulebreaker 🤗
Have you ever played as Huntress without using Hatchets by any chance?
Only once in public matches. It suuuuuuuuuucks, but if you have fun with it, hey its a win.
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Add ons: Double iridescents
Perks: play with your food, batteries included, [your choice for last 2. Recommend pairings: Friends till the end + rapid brutality, darkness revealed + any regression, Noed + Bloodwarden]
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….so if the new killer is a Beholder, can we throw pebbles in its eye(s) to blind it?
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Aside from AGI and iron, slowdown (or if you feel spicy something for quicker downs like "make your choice") and info for perks. As HolyDarkly said, maps with basements near the center are preferred. Trapper, hag, billy, blight, nurse, oni, spirit, xeno (depends on tunnel spawns but since they're usually ok…), demo, bubba would be our choices for killer.
As some above said though, it's really REALLY hard to force these ones. Good luck.
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@Ohyakno said:
I really don't want my characters constantly barking lines at one another.
...ya know we really didn't think about if that's what they meant. We'd personally prefer something like that than voice coms if it's optional. Nick sorta does this already.
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We're not going to argue about voice coms again, but we are curious as to what you mean by "interact with the killers while being chased" specifically.
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