RhodosGuard
RhodosGuard
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@Caiman said:
He's always been extremely janky and glitchy and his updates have never addressed that properly. Yes, his add-ons are bad. Yes, he's kind of bad. Not the worst but very far from the best.
Just seems that pre-rework I at least got some value, now every other game is a 4 man escape because I unintentionally cancel a guard I set up before, the map has really bad geometry to even set up patrols, and when I use my power in chase, I go into an obvious "I'm powering now"-Stance and suddenly have to tell where survivors go by sound alone.
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@[Deleted User] said:
70% kill rate and this guy wants more killer Buffs
I play singularity without any perks and get 3k or 4k every game. He has spirit fury enduring built in.
Now I don’t need to pick spirit fury enduring and can basically have 6 perks. So with that information will the picks for spirit fury enduring be down?
Let’s think 🤔
Where are you taking your stats from dude?
No Killer has a Killrate of 70% and the most used builds have a killrate of 63% and none of these builds are completely Hex focused.
And the lower the pickrate the less significant the kill rate is. It's simple maths.
But sure. Throw around random numbers and hope people believe you. -
@[Deleted User] said:
tell me you don’t know how to play killer without telling me
More than half of all Hex Perks are picked less often than people playing completely without perks
https://nightlight.gg/perks/viewer?shown=pick&sort=pick&role=killer&start_days=28&compact=true -
Tell me you never cleanse totems without telling me you never cleanse totems, which is the only way you can say they're all good. -
@[Deleted User] said:
I don’t understand your argument. Your wanting hexes to be a permanent perk?? News flash. It’s not supposed to be like that. It’s supposed to be able to be cleansed because of how powerful it is. It’s YOUR CHOICE as a killer to decide your build. So stop complaining about a game that already is killer sided. Your argument is invalid and makes zero sense. I say this again. A hex perk is supposed to be like that.
Oh my gosh I’m gonna lose my mind with the observed requests these killer mains are asking for.
I want Hexes, which are already half useless every game, to not have an additional weakness, by having a hardcounter.
If they are strong enough fine, but the strength of hexes is irrelevant when the only way that power comes into play is if you play your entire build catered to them, or you are playing against rather bad survivors.
Survivors have no time pressure. The Killer is the one who effectively only has 450 Seconds to win.
I can already not commit to long chases because I lose gen pressure, if I now also cant commit to gen pressure because I have to defend randomly placed totems because otherwise I dont have any perks because to make those perks do something I have to pick only perks that work with totems, then Hexes are not powerful. They are obsolete in a world where survivors know that glowing Totems mean something bad is happening. Which is compounded by the game telling survivors which perk they are affected by so they can perfectly pinpoint what the hex is even doing.
The power argument is irrelevant here, because the power is limited by factors that makes playing Hexes useless.
Draculas new Hex Perk gives you 33% repair time reduction to a single survivor, and only after a gen is completed and even then, the affected Survivor sees the totem if they are close to it. Is that really so powerful that to have this effect be meaningful at all, I have to pick up 2 more perks to make sure it isn't cleansed by someone randomly stumbling across it? It's effectively a worse version of Pentimento. And Pentimentos weakness is that noone cleanses dull totems, and unless you can get 5 active totems at some point you cant ever play it to it's full efficiency meaning best case is 30% less repair speed for all survivors. Only if they do not see Pentimento show up when they repair and immediately going back to where the last cleansed totem was.
Hexes add patrol points, meaning they are already kinda bad on anything that doesnt have good movement or can set up traps.
It's also really funny to see people complain that killers have weird requests when survivors cry about literally anything any Killer can do they dont like. Currently they are asking for basekit unbreakable because Killers got Yellow Mori Basekit, and they believe that means they slug more. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829127#Comment_3829127
That is true, you can't use Pentimento, but other than that one specific perk it works exactly as intended.
All of the other hex-defence/hex-support perks work properly against boons, so I don't view this as a giant issue with hexes, and rather just… the one singular downside for picking Pentimento over the other support perks.
Picking a boon always has a benefit. The only way a boon becomes a liability is when you face a Killer with both shattered hope and Pentimento. While picking Shattered Hope is a gamble that anyone even brings a boon, and Pentimento alone is a gamble that noone has a boon.
There simply is a clear discrepency in the value between picking Hexes, picking Hexes with defences, picking hexes without defences, and picking 2 very specific perks that can just be entirely useless.
There is a reason Hexes were only ever Meta when Ruin caused 200% regression.
I just dont get how the proposition of an entire class of perks that only work if you, first, dedicate your entire build to it and second, the survivors are oblivious to that build enough to let you play it out, is fun.
And supposedly we hate things that aren't fun here. -
@[Deleted User] said:
- Killers use hex perks that they know can be cleansed.
- surprised face when they’re cleansed 😦
Result- BUFF HEXES NOW!!!!
Then remove Hexes, or replace them with something that actually works without requiring full investment.
With this argument, you might as well say "Never play Hexes, they are useless" which is a really good argument when your supposed punchline is that asking for buffs if dumb.@jesterkind said:
I don't know that I see this as a problem, honestly.
Think about it, the survivor still
- Found your hex
- Stopped and completed the interaction on that totem
- Even chose to take longer doing it than normal
Without boons in play, your hex is gone anyway, boons just also give survivors an unrelated bonus if they happen to be running those perks. If a survivor has, say, Overzealous, that's another perk that allows them to get an extra benefit for finding and cleansing your hex. I can't see any reasons Boons shouldn't work the same way, myself.
Hexes could absolutely use some help, but I don't think this specifically is a problem area. This works pretty much the way it should.
But without a boon, I can use Pentimento. Which is one of, if not the definitive, perk that's supposed to make Hex Builds work.
People say "you need to make your entire build cater to hexes if you want any individual hex perk to be worth taking, and then I take one of those perks, and it is entirely negated by a random survivor having a boon.@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
- Your choice but Hexes should be a full build to max its effectiveness or and protection of them.
Imagine if any Survivor Perk was bound to the Killer not doing some arbitrary low effort action.
People would riot immediately.
"You can only use lithe as long as one random crow on the map has not been disturbed"
I mean, only need to pick up the "Crows arent disturbed when you are within 8 feet" perk and stay close to your crow the entire game, which totally justifies that this perk of yours is bound to an arbitrary object not being interacted with. -
@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
Hexes are SUPPOSED to be high risk high reward.
But that's not how they actually function. There is no reward. They work for a minute and by then all of them have been either boon'd over or destroyed.
For something to be high risk high reward, there needs to be a chance for me to actually properly be able to utilize them, but there is none. Survivors with enough hours played to know what Hexes can do will just make them useless unless I use up half my slots to maybe edge out a few seconds to defend them. With how easy it is for survivors, who have no time pressure, to dismantle them, I shouldnt have to run a full build dedicated to hexes to utilize maybe 2 hex perks. -
Survivors really do everything in their power to make you hate them and then go "Why you tunnel me?"
This is a problem I call "Abusing Anti-Tunnel Survivor Bias"
There are 2 things I'd count as such:
Bodyblocking after unhook so you can use Basekit /Perk BT to tank a hit and also freely slow down the killer, even though this is entirely agains the purpose of this being an "Anti-Tunnel" Perk/Mechanic
Using the DS Timer to it's fullest so you can act annoying while you are technically untouchable.
Increase it's duration to 80 seconds, but then also give it more conditions to turn off, so you cant abuse an Anti-Tunnel Perk for something against it's purpose. As people have said, make Flashlight Saves/Pallet Saves turn it off. But there could be better indicators, that you are not being tunneled, that should turn it off. -
No Perks should be Tier 3 if you are only Prestige 1, but Perks you unlocked through prestige can appear as their higher-tiered versions in the Bloodweb, so my assumption is, that you Prestiged one of your survivors first, and unlocked their Perks in the Bloodweb, then levelled them when you prestiged your second survivor.
Apart from that: A Survivors own Unique Perks are also available in the Bloodweb, so maybe you were checking your Perks on the Survivor you prestiged? -
I'd say most of the older Killers Unique Perks. And Hexes.
I'd say an easy fix for Hexes would be a rework of Undying.
Make Undying not be a Hex Perk and instead, baseline, transfer the first cleansed Hex Totem to a Dull Totem, then deactivate.
That way Undying cannot be wasted by being cleansed first due to RNG spawns. -
I dont understand people saying Gen Times are okay.
I know people in this community are split about otzdarva, but a year ago, he made a video about why gen repair times are/were problematic. With the thesis being, that it is hard to play around gen times that can vary as widely as they do considering toolboxes and perks.
And since then, they nerfed Killers access to slowdown in a way, that makes it even less controllable, so every game I load up, it's gambling on whether I hear a gen pop as or before I get my first hook, or if the survs will sit on 4 Gens for 10 minutes because none of them has any way to speed them up while I sit on 1 Pentimento that they just refuse to clear.
I general I agree with the notion, that it seems there is more discouragement rather than encouragement for certain playstyles.
Easily accessible and reliable options are slowdown, and everything else risks the game not being fun, so Killers dont run it.Then there is also the circle of toxicity, where it becomes hard to not slug against bully groups. If I dont slug, I get Sabo'd or Flashlighted. So I either Slug or refuse to play.
I also agree, that tools that were supposed to be anti-tunneling are often abused.
Like an unhooked person bodyblocking knowing they have Basekit/Perk BT active. Or people refusing to participate in the game after a hook, so they can preserve DS for it's full duration, even if I dont chase them.
It's almost like they dont mean it, when they say they dont want to be tunneled, because they do everything in their power to make me want to tunnel them.
Edit:
Oh and about Killrates.
People forget that a 50% Killrate is a tie. 60% means that 3Ks are way more rare than 2Ks meaning that we're moving in a sphere where more games end up tied than being won by Killers.
And the game, being asymmetric, wants Killers to win more often. If they didnt want that, they would have made the game symmetric. -
@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753207#Comment_3753207
I understand your perspective, even if I do disagree. I explained it in an earlier reply to someone else, but essentially in my opinion, because gen-rushing has negative connotations, similar to tunneling, I believe a firm and strict definition is important, which does contradict your belief that it is a spectrum. I don’t believe you can accidentally gen-rush, just as I don’t believe you can accidentally tunnel. Mostly because I don’t believe intent changes the outcome.
Because gen-rushing, just like tunneling, is seen by majority of the playerbase as something negative, it feels wrong to allow it to be a catch-all. Calling someone a tunneler or a gen-rusher is usually not said without negative intention. Which is why I don’t believe it should be determined solely on the feelings of the killer if they have been gen-rushed or not. Just like a person may feel they have been tunneled but if they were not hooked consecutively then they were not. If it wasn’t used as a negative term then I don’t think a definition would be necessary.Anyways, I’m not trying to change your mind or convince you or anything so I think I’ll end this here. But again, thanks so much for the respectful discussion. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts in any possible future posts.
But this can't happen. There cant be firm definitions when there is gameplay freedom.
In other games there is feeding. It is negatively connotated and usually boils down to intentionally dying over and over in order to sandbag your own team.
The problem is, that it can be hard to determine intent. So everyone calls it feeding, whether you are just bad at the game (equivalent to getting repeatedly found due to too much of a skill difference to your peers) or are actually doing it (equivalent to prioritizing instant kills)
The flexibility in the definition is also required, because otherwise you could just make them worthless.
If Tunneling is only the act of getting a single survivor hooked 3 times consecutively, then Hooking the same survivor twice, hooking another survivor and then hooking the first survivor again stops being tunneling.
So what would be a better definition for tunneling? The closest thing would be "attacking a recently unhooked survivor immediately after being hooked" but then Tunneling could simply be triggering the endurance hit? Maybe we reduce Tunneling to "getting hooked twice consecutively" but in that situation you remove the part survivors are actually upset about, which is that they are removed from the game immediately with no rest in between chases.
And with so many options in the game, you just cant boil these things people hate down to 1 definition.
I do think a lot of survivors abuse the word Tunneling.
For them Tunneling is just when they are the first person to die.
In the end, that's why those definitions need to be at least slightly open.
Tunneling is prioritizing fast kills by focusing a single player where possible.
When it comes to Gen-Rushing, I think because it is on a spectrum there is an acceptable range.
Everything that can happen naturally is often Okay, because it will be hard to keep that accidental synergy up for a long time.
4 Survivors that spawn together and get a 40 second Gen done is hard to sustain, so if that's the reason I get an early gen, it is acceptable.
If someone goes into trial with a Flashlight and then finds a yellow toolbox with a yellow addon and with 2 people the gen goes in 50 seconds or something, that's also not sustainable but slightly more so.
IF you visualize the spectrum as a line from accidental to intentional, then I think it starts getting toxic in the last third of that line. The point where your whole strategy is to make chases become counter-intuitive to the Killer because even if you get a hook, you'd have to tunnel to even get a kill, because gens go too fast. -
@jezebelthenun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753096#Comment_3753096
I run otr personally. And your response is largely not what I was referencing in the op. I'm talking about purposely chasing the person who was unhooked to take them out of the game, ie tunneling off hook. There's no sandbagging in tunneling. There's no accidents in tunneling. It's a very specific and intentional thing.
I went into more detail in the definition of gen rushing thread, but I'm fine with just bumping into the killer later and being chased again. If dude did literally anything else in between me being unhooked and chasing me again, I don't consider it tunneling.
OH I thought this poster was OP. And it seemed like they described sandbagging.
@TragicSolitude said:
Neither side enjoys it when the other side plays efficiently to win. That's how DbD is unfortunately designed. The best most efficient way to win is usually not considered the most fun way to play. Ridiculous, eh? I don't even like it when it's my own side, as I don't enjoy tunneling, and I also don't enjoy sitting on gens doing fudge all else.
So, the problem is DbD's design. Telling players they should play with a self-imposed disadvantage doesn't work. Even if the ones who hear the message listen, that still leaves the majority of players who will never hear that message because really, most players of a video game aren't active in the game's community.
It would be nice if we all played casually. I play casual. I run a useless lazy BP build as killer. I'm running with Lute, Pebble, Plot Twist, and Plunderer's as survivor. The majority of killers I face? They're not interested in my casual, they find me cleansing a totem or opening a chest and I play my lute and I'm an easy mark; they focus on me instead of the ones actually doing gens. If they're playing to win I can't necessarily blame them for that, though why they're on me and not paying attention to gens is a mystery, but, and this is the funny thing, the killer gets rid of me and my friend early in the match and is then surprised and dismayed when the other two survivors just give up and want out. Not joking, I've witnessed it after dying with more than one streaming killer. They wanted an easier match and got it and they still weren't happy. lol
So, yeah, this is DbD, the game where no one is ever happy and everything is a monkey's paw. People enjoy winning but the gameplay to get to that win is often not fun (at least for many), but if you play casually you're all but guaranteed to lose and whoever the opposing side is they often try to make the experience of losing as miserable as possible.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752954#Comment_3752954
If those are the only requirments for "gen-rushing", this essentially implies that if any gen progress is made before "X" amount of hooks, it is gen-rushing, regardless. Regardless of perks, items, map pressure etc. I'm sorry, I just am struggling to find the logic in that, as that could imply that repairing gens- at all is gen-rushing. Even if those survivors are playing with no items or perks of any kind, it would be considered gen-rushing.
You are not optimizing Gen-Repair Speed if you dont bring items or perks.
The reason I brought up the situation with a pre-first hook gen repair, is that it's not fun.
Of course it can happen by circumstance. All Survivors spawn together, 3 of them work on one gen immediately, they get it done quick.
But with quick pops, it's unlikely, that it just so happened, that the stars aligned for them.
Toolboxes are just the easiest step in the equation.
A single Toolbox allows a single Survivor to repair a gen in a Minute.
With 2 People the default Time (without Boxes) is already only 52 seconds.
The point is, that you have very little opportunity to stop people who really optimize this time, if you commit to any chase.
You might as well not chase a single survivor at all, unless you know where the others are, and what they are doing, because simply committing even just a minute to a chase, even if you get a down/hook, has the potential of up to 3 gens popping. At the beginning of a game. Of course the less optimized the rush is, the less gens pop.
For me the frustration comes from how little I get to chase my main objective. Killers are supposed to hit, down and hook.
But the priority of the gameplay loop that furthers this goal is constantly challenged by the requirement of slowdown.
I have to invest more time into making sure the enemy doesnt fulfil their objective, that fulfilling my own objective plays second fiddle to that.
The best solution was if chasing, hitting and downing was actually a good way to stop generator progress, but it isnt.
That's the reason people started using Regression perks more aggressively, which is why, post-nerf, people run even more regression. These perks allow Killers to connect the dots. Pain Res regresses when you Hook. Pop is burst regression if you Hook. Surge is AoE Regression if you down. Oppression is AoE Regression if you break a gen.
Gen-Rushing is on a spectrum.
That ranges from unintentionally getting a single gen in 40 seconds becaus the killer spawned on the other side of map, and you spawned as a four right next to one, to 3 people with Toolboxes repairing 3 gens in 60 seconds. -
Across this thread I get the feeling that a survivor that is intentionally sandbagging their team is upset that a killer rather takes the easy kill they provide than put effort into chasing people that actually get involved in chases?
This games community is all black and white, and in absolute denial about their own "sides" shortcomings.
"Everything the other side does is toxic, everything my side does they need to do to have a chance to win"
It feels like BHVR more often sides with Survivors though.
That's why Anti-Tunneling Perks become baseline, but Regression Perks get nerfed.
I am tired of the "Tunnelling sucks" discussion.
Yes. Some people Tunnel because it's the most effective way to play. Either deal with it, or at least start packing DS.
Some people Tunnel because the same person keeps making themselves their target. Maybe by, I dunno, playing the Lute next to chests?
And people who dont Tunnel are still subjected to everything Survivors deem neccessary to win, but are equally unfun for Killers.
I still predict that if we stay on the current course, we soon get baseline DS. -
@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752960#Comment_3752960
The whole idea of a god pallet is that you can drop it and get distance regardless of what the killer does.
A pallet that auto breaks itself really isn't a god pallet.
Then dont pre-drop them, which is the only way you dont gain distance.
If you stun you are guaranteed 8m of distance. -
I recently had a game with a Bot.
The Bot was significantly better than all the human players in terms of mechanical skill.
I mean, 180-Turn into instant blind, perfect shack loops, ability to deny shack mindgames, timing the Event-Window-Block perfectly to get to the next tile.
Like solid stuff that a lot of survivors I face dont manage.
They are also acceptable at juking ranged killers.
In the end, it was a 2v1 against the bot and one human.
And I was unsure what to do.
Focus on the human, potentially letting the bot escape through hatch? (aka being beaten by a bot)
Or focus on the bot, potentially being subjected to "you focused the bot because it was the easier target ey?"
Got the 4K in the end. But at no point have I considered whether I was "teaming" with the bot.
The AI doesnt really need Improvement. You need to reflect on whether you can take advantage of the bot.
You know what.
Your Statement is like saying:
"Survivors are exploiting bots! They are letting Bots die on hook, rather than risk unhooking!" -
@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752991#Comment_3752991
Oh! You know, you're 100% right. I believe I understand where you're coming from now. I do think it's accusatory, as in my experience and based on what I've seen in games and forum discussions, gen-rushing is considered "bad" or "toxic."
I view gen-rushing similarly to tunneling. Despite neither being against the rules and both being accepted as valid playstyles, they are both generally acknowledged to be very unfun and can feel unfair. This is why I feel a strong definition of what gen-rushing is is important, because it carries negative connotations. If a term is going to be used negatively, it's important to know what it truly means.
I can see how if you or others don't view it as negative, just like tunneling, then you wouldn't feel the need for a strict definition. However, the term gen-rushing, like tunneling, was created because these behaviors were prevalent and disliked. Both terms explain the choices of another player in a way that is typically intended to be negative, even if it's stated as a fact.
This is kind of a dumb example but it may clear up what I mean: Someone may be "fat," but calling them "fat," while accurate, is usually not said without negative intention. Similarly, calling someone a tunneler or a gen-rusher is typically negative, even if factually accurate.
Therefore, I believe it is important to be able to define these terms clearly. I understand now though, that you don't personally believe it needs to be defined.
Tunneling is a strategy to fast track an objective. This was/is just a thing Killers could do. Yes it was unfun, but it was a gameplay decision. "I want to get Kills, I get Kills faster and safer if I remove the Survivors quickly 1-by-1"
Gen-Rushing is a strategy to fast Track an objective. Survivors can do that. It is a gameplay decision.
"It's easier to escape if I give the killer has as little time as possible to catch anyone"
Both of these are born from the desire to "win"
They are both considered "bad" and "toxic"
I think one of them is seen as less serious than the other.
Both strategies have received counterplay. Mostly in the form of perks.
But it seems like now people also deem Regression perks toxic. So I dunno what to think here.
I think both of these can be defined, but some definitions are jank by nature.
Tunneling is the strategy of actively focusing your efforts on killing a single survivor, actively ignoring others.
There can be "accidental tunneling" which happens if a survivor has been matched far outside of his skill level and therefore just ends up repeatedly being found and chased and downed. But I dont think that should count as tunneling because then it is not being done actively (which may be "intent" like people above mentioned) but for a generally accepted definition, this serves pretty well.
As for gen-rushing I also said what I believe it to be.
It's an umbrella term for strategies that optimize gen repair speed, and exists in a spectrum. -
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752981#Comment_3752981
Even with the window blocked for 3 seconds, the entity will still block it after 3 vaults
Think smart
People are not using the window block to keep running shack, they use Window Block to force you through the long way round while they have a head start to next tile.
The reason it's unfun to do is because it denies potential mindgames, like moonwalking vault or double vault.
It adds another bottleneck besides the guaranteed god pallet.
I dont like the shack loop. I am trying to learn how to deal with it, but it feels like the limiting factor is the reaction time of the survivor, and not my ability to mindgame them. -
@jezebelthenun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752978#Comment_3752978
It definitely sets limits, and requires thought and effort to balance, but I feel like it's a big part of the fun. I struggle with the mindset that the game is supposed to be easy, for either side. I don't think I'll ever quite understand how demolishing a match, as killer OR survivor is fun for someone. (Silly farming matches not withstanding) When it happens to me, I find it boring and apologize in chat because clearly the matchmaking really messed up. If you don't have to try, how is it fun?
Sorry for the tangent, but it's something that baffles me, and it's not directed at you specifically. I appreciate your point of view.
The problem is the asynchronous nature. Which, unsurprisingly, is tied to the asymmetric nature of the game.
Of course if the game was easy it wouldnt be fun, but I feel like when it comes to counterplay, we put on different standards onto Killers and Survivors.
The problem isnt setting limits and forcing decision making, it's not paying attention to cause and effect. They just see effect, and attack an assumed cause.
The thoughts were "Killers were not running regression (or progress-denial (blocking gens)) because they had to assume fast repair times in a lot of games, they were running them because they were oppressive" and the result was Killers doubling down on it, because they still saw it neccessary to do so.
I dunno where my long winded post about this went, but it said it was waiting for approval, but basically, Gen-Rushing is a spectrum, that ranges from accidental synergy to minmaxxing repair times. -
@[Deleted User] said:
Is it?
Im getting great value from
Quiet mode (it removes scratch marks, pools of blood and sound)
Windows Blocking.
Revealed hex locations.
Revealed Chest locations.
Extra pallets (if you can hit with it)
Yeah the instant hooking and the pallet breaking is nice for the killer, but i think the above makes it up for it.I think my escape rate as survivor SoloQ is about 40-50% (and no im not just sitting in a corder or locker and hide all game).Its so easy to trick killers with quiet mode and a little moving around.
Killer shack is even more unbearable with Window-Blocks.
-
@jezebelthenun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752965#Comment_3752965
It feels strange because they aren't comparable.
2 people doing 1 gen with no toolboxes or perks get a gen done in just under a minute if uninterrupted. As a killer, you have the ability to interrupt them at any time without additional perks or addons. It's just a matter of finding them. If you're chasing a different survivor, you have choices. Commit or patrol. Gen pressure is important. I think moreso than early hooks, but that's just my opinion and I can see how others might disagree.
For tunneling, it's not nearly as counterable, and requires extras to be avoided, and then only for a short duration. You have to assume it's going to happen and build for it ahead of time or you're SOL.
Regardless of whether or not the definition is solely "efficiency" for both as you say, they're not the same or even similar, based on counterability.
The problem is that chases need to come to some conclusion.
I can exit a chase after getting a hit, a down or a hook.
But these things need time.
If I intentionally limit the time I need for each change, because I have to fear losing gens to fast every single game, then on some killers, chases will not be winnable.
During a chase 3 people work on gens.
If a survivor is on hook, at most 2 people work on gens.
If I manage to get a chase going as people struggle to get the unhook, then only 1 person may work on gen.
I can admit that limiting how long you chase is important, and knowing when you are over-chasing is also important, but my main objective is still getting kills. And Slowdown is important to get Kills, but Killers have more fun doing the thing that directly benefits their main objective, and that's winning chases.
By allowing such a huge variance in how fast/slow gens can be repaired, the element of slowdown and gen pressure now seems like it overtakes chases and getting hits in importance. Which is why people ran Regression perks during peak-repair times. And why people are running even more of them post regression nerfs.
It allows for slowdown that synergizes with Hooks and Chases. -
@Krazzik said:
If they make it so it isn't so survivor-sided it could be cool. Shouldn't be an easy way to just break chase for survs.
It'd be okay if they at least moved the gens a bit further away. But in the library the portal is literally right next to the gen, and on the other end they put the portal behind a wall so ranged killers cant even attempt to intercept.
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Killers: run meta perks
"SO unfair, this game is a boring slog because my gen takes more than 30 seconds to pop. UGH"
Killers: play adept
" WOW this is so killer-sided they think they can take us on with adept perks!" -
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752960#Comment_3752960
Theres no such a thing as god pallet if it breaks itself
Call it a God pallet or not.
What you get is a fixed tile that is already guaranteed to spawn a god pallet, and are given the ability to place down a second pallet in the same tile, on the same path.
That the second pallet breaks itself is irrelevant unless you pre-drop the Party pallet.
Within that Tile, in a singular chase you can get a stun, a blind, the slowdown from having to break the Pallet, another stun and another blind if you have a flashlight.
A Killer can at max Endure one of these hits, an effect only reliably viable at the Party Pallet. And maybe at the normal pallet if you are playing a ranged Killer.
If you place down the Party Pallet first thing, you can also gain another invitation by the time you get to use that tile, meaning you can potentially even run it back for a third pallet. -
Survivors be setting up double back-to-back god pallets in RPD but remote breaking is somehow bad.
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Basically, if you start the game.
And you get into chase.
And you get a down.
Within let's say a Minute, and 1 or more gens pop.
You have been gen-rushed.
It's any strategy in which the time to repair has been optimized in a way that allows for very little counterplay.
How this is achieved can vary.
I'd say it's more likely to be encountered in SWF games, where you can have a dedicated runner, that intentionally seperates, so that during the first chase that happens you can have setups with either 3 people on one gen, or 2 people on one gen, and one solo on a gen.
The overarching point is the optimization of gen repair speed though. -
@Senaxu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3749136#Comment_3749136
This! Killer do never complain about genrush as both sides should play to win.
I'D be okay with gen-rushes if the repair times weren't as short as they are after the regression nerf.
I usually run Killers as "Adept +" meaning I pick up their personal perks and 1 Perk I like.
This limits me and makes me stomach it easier when I lose.
Huntress Perks suck ass.
So I run her with a different Build. Full Regression.
Pop, Oppression, Nowhere to Hide, Pain Res
It's weird to me, that only by using these perks have I realized how fast gens pop without them. It's like a completely different game compared to other Killers I like to play. -
I dunno about you, but for like 50% of my Masquerade Games, I get suicidal lemming Survivors.
Just yesterday I had a game where 3 people facecamped me. The killer. They facecamped me and 2 of them always tried to blind me out of every pickup.
So I did what Killers do.
I downed one, hurt the others, hooked, downed the next, hooked and started a cycle that ended with 3Ks at 3 Gens, just to be told in post chat that I was toxic for not letting them do whatever they wanted to do.
And, sorry for generalizing, but I feel that's a lot of survivors.
Anything I can do to stop them from being toxic they consider toxic and I am evil for doing it.
Another game I had a Nancy that kept ignoring my Terror Radius so everytime I saw her I got like guaranteed hits.
When she was at 2 Hook states, I felt bad, only downed and hoped her mates would go and heal her, but she left not even 10 seconds after the down, which obviously was enough for the other 2 survivors to start t-bagging and trying to bait me into chases every single time.
So. What is there to do. What courtesy am I supposed to give people, when they repay it with being little shits? -
@Eleghost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737120#Comment_3737120
I mean if you're getting blinded every pick up or stunned idk what to tell you. I go against plenty of SWF and skilled survivors and have little to no issue dealing with them. You just have to know what to do and when or if you want to slot in lightborn. Could also play a stronger killer like nurse or something as well. I stated a big issue i see when playing both sides that survivors do which is refuse to touch the gens or put themselves in a nasty 3-gen.
My option is to slug the downed survivor and hope to find the dedicated clicker, but that is slugging, and evil and toxic and boohoo daddy BHVR make unbreakable baseline pwease.
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It's not Tunneling when the survivor is just the only one constantly bumping into you and failing their chases.
I just had a game, where there was 1 player, who didnt know you can dodge Skelebros by crouching, so of course I hit them every single time they vaulted.
I didnt ignore the entire enemy team to focus them, they just happened to be the only one constantly walking into me. -
@SleepyLunatic said:
this is the mindset which is ruining the game for most
You sure that it isnt when Killers get every hook denied by sabo or being blinded?
Or Maps generating a large amount of pallettes you can't mindgame?
Or Maps that are just bad for some killers?
Or Loops with multiple Pallettes in it? Like 2 Pallettes between 3 objects multiple times on the same map?
Or a buggy map where some pallette locations have 2 pallettes in them?
I dont get how Survivors, especially SWFs, can be the most unfun people to face, doing everything in their power to make sure a Killer trying to play fair has no way to get a hook, and then turn around and beg daddy BHVR to give them more buffs, and to nerf the evil killers who can by design just ignore some of their antics.
The game is asymmetric, so it is completely understandable, that survivors playing solo, or that dont have multiple thousand hours feel like (some) Killers are unfairly strong. That's why I think all this is baked into the game. Killers have to be strong, they have to fight 4 people.
Survivors, just playing the game as a "run away from Killer game", are completely justified to feel like no matter what they do, the Killer always gets them, unless they are really good.
But Killers who just want to have fun and then face SWFs, sabo-rush, gen rush or just run 4 flashlights are also completely justified to think the whole design of the game is just to make them miserable.
So unless you commit to be at least a little bit toxic every game, you just risk the game not being fun.
That is why I think this game is only as much fun as the enemy lets you have, and unless you commit to treating them the same, that is just how it's going to be.@Eleghost said:
What i find that causes me to lose games (as survivor) or win games (as killer) more often than naught is people doing gens. If people aren't doing gens and decide to screw around or go for flashy saves you're almost a detriment to the team. If you don't get the save or get hit you've wasted time and set up the next chase.
Also could argue the Gens you do are important as well. Breaking a nasty 3-gen early can be the difference to winning and losing.The problem is that these things are extremely reliable if you've learned them once.
How often do SWFs fail their Flashlight save? How often do SWFs miss their chain-blinds? Or Blinds after Stuns? Or Blinds when breaking Pallette?
The Sabo buff literally made it impossible to counteract the hook breaking, if the survivors have the correct Toolbox and Addons?
You can Hit a survivor, and in the time you recover they completely sabo the hook, so you drop who you're carrying and have to hope you get to another Hook before the one who sabo'd wiggles free.
And that is only if they sabo in your face.
If they just always somewhat stick together, they can easily react to their teammate being picked up and Sabo from a distance where they were never in danger.
Is the expectation here, that every Killer should pick up Lightborn and Agitation and/or Iron Grip?
Well, then you wont have the regression/slowdown needed to counteract a gen rush.The only alternative is slugging. But to successfully slug you need to get 2 downs, and against a coordinated team, especially if they are good at saves, you are not getting 2 downs before the one you slugged is being picked up.
You can camp the one person you slugged, but what you get is 3 people healing and baiting you into a pallette or blind because they only need half a second to pick the slug up again.
It's also pretty naive, to think a 3-gen is a huge deal, when you face a 4-man SWF.
A 3 Gen is only a really bad situation to be in, if you only have 2 or 3 survivors left, but with 4, the Killer is screwed anyway.
You cant chase survivors because they will bait you to the other side of the map while the 3 remaining just rush gen, you cant patrol because they just repair the ones with the most distance between them little by little.
Finally, you could always say I play the game wrong.
That I refuse to get better because I refuse to play strong builds, but I like to insist, that I just wanna have fun. I dont want to sweat with builds that only frustrate survivors in preparation that I will face 4 P100 SWF survs, when for some reason it seems I am also matched with people playing their 10th game or so.
So there is little for me to do, but accept that in like 25-50% of games I will face people against whom I will not have fun. And to accept that because I will face really new people, sometimes they wont have fun agains me, even though I am technically bad at the game, because they haven't yet realized that there are things you can reliably learn to do on reaction that will disable a lot of Killers. -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736306#Comment_3736306
i think you can only use ranged capacity of this skill with iri add-on and green horn. if paired with undetectable perks, it can be used as sniping tool on generators. Fly+undetectable can be used as ambush tool and it counters that item that survivors see the aura when using fly.
We have tested it and it's not really true it's impossible to dodge (some survivors did it in his video)
well if it is used across walls, you won't react to the animation. Think about jungle gyms where you know proximity location of the survivor that they're near pallet. all they see is a skeleton instantly hit them. that is kinda how I have been playing him. a great example in hens video is Yui's play on 13:26 in the video where she sees him cast it but is unable to react to it.
If a survivor is playing against Vecna, and stops moving next to pallette without crouching, that isnt really vecnas fault is it?
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FoTD, just looking at the numbers
Doing the Math it just doesnt work out.
During FoTD Cast, you slow down to 4.0m/s (losing 0.6 meters assuming you take 1 second to aim and cast)
In the Post Cast Period you are slowed to 3.68m/s for 2 seconds (losing 2*0.92 = 1.84 meters)So compared to just walking Vecna loses 2.44 meters
A Survivor moves at 4.0 m/s running and 1.13 m/s crouching
If a survivor crouches for a full second they lose 2.87 meters
So the additional range Vecna Gains on a survivor from this interaction is 0.43m, but only if you truly crouch for a full second.
I'd estimate that you do not need to crouch for a full second to dodge, so depending on a survivors reaction time and ping Vecna may even lose distance.
If a survivor only crouches for half a second, they only lose 1.435 meters, and gain more than a meter in distance.
If they crouch for half a second but full stop and then go back to running from that, they lose 2 meters and gain like half a meter of ground.
All of course compared to the default speed of Vecna and survivor. -
Since people are talking about FoTD, I just recently, very roughly, ran the numbers.
While casting Vecna is slowed to 4.0 (losing 0.6)
For 2 Seconds after Casing, Vecna is Slowed to 3.68 (losing 0.92)
If you cast for 1 second considering Aiming and predicting Movement,
the slowdown over those 3 seconds is 2.34mThe real question is how long a survivor has to crouch.
Let's say he crouches for a whole second but keeps pressing W.
Then for that whole second he loses 2.87
Meaning that in that space of time, Vecna gains 0.53 Meters on a survivor.
If during that time both parties just held W, Vecna would have gained 1.8 meters.
So if the excuse for FoTD being dodged by crouching is "but the survivor is slow"
Then that is technically true, but it is still worse in terms of chase power than just pressing W. -
Another Survivor spotted who is stuck thinking that "If I just drop a pallette I win this chase" and then go surprise pikachu faced when Vecna lifts it back up.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734089#Comment_3734089
Even if regression was strong, we'd still see most players stacking it, hence the Eruption meta. I'd rather weak regression be stacked than strong regression be stacked.
Why are you talking in circles?
Of course you'd rather have weak regression perks stacked than stronger ones, but if your nerf did nothing to the pick rate of these perks, or maybe even increased the pickrate, then maybe that points to a deeper problem, no?
Like maybe that the base problem as to why people played these perks wasnt solved?
I always thought the idea of nerfs was that less people used these perks unless there was something specific they wanna do with it, but if your nerf increases the pickrate, then it means that you misunderstood the quintessential reason people played them. -
@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734008#Comment_3734008
I fail to see how his powers are all bad. Mage Hand will still be good, Flight of the Damned is good, Fly is good, and even Dispell Sphere is a good ability. It's interesting how you seem to believe survivors need to learn how to play against Vecna and adapt, meanwhile you seem to be reluctant to learning how to play as Vecna at all.
"Flight of the Damned is good"
It can literally be crouched under and announces itself loudly
"Fly is good"
It has a Recovery Time of 2.5 seconds during which you cannot attack and are slowed down to 2 m/s causing it to usually be a time loss in any chase and reveals you earlier to survs outside of a chase
"Dispelling Sphere is a good ability"
Magic Items literally turn the slow moving Sphere visible.
And when it comes to Magehand:
If lifting a pallette: drop it again
If holding a pallette: keep running the loop
By increasing the Time Mage Hand needs to lift and removing the only way to reduce that time, survivors can just safely drop Pallette and run
The only way you'd think there is no counterplay, is if you play against Vecna and still believe it is a really good idea to drop a pallette when he is literally just a few steps behind you.
Mage Hand literally gives you ressources back that you usually have very little ways to regain. -
I currently use Telekinetic Ring and Boots of Speed because Mage Hand was the most reliable Spell.
Since they are nerfing Mage Hand and Reworking Telekinetic Ring in the next minor Patch, I guess I'll go and use the CD reduction on basic attack hits with whatever I think feels right. -
Less than 2 days on live servers and BHVR already announced a Nerf to the only reliably usefull Spell Vecna has.
BHVR has favorite children, but they dont say who it is so it wont hurt Killers feelings. -
Imagine securing your team a win and still trying to present yourself as the victim.
Peak. -
@ReverseVelocity said:
It's already getting a bit of a nerf:
Cool I love how this Killer who had 3 pretty bad and 1 mediocre power will now have 4 pretty bad powers.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733974#Comment_3733974
When we had Eruption, Overcharge, Pop and PR meta, Killers still tunneled with those four extremely oppressive slowdown perks.
Why was that? Because this notion that Killers only tunnel or run slowdowns because they have to is simply false. They run it because it makes the game much easier. And why shouldn't they run things to make the game easier for themselves? It's up to the Devs to adjust those strategies.
How is that relevant to my post?
I said nothing about tunneling.
And even if I said something about Tunneling.
Yes, some Killers tunneled even with better slowdown perks, but it's delusional to pretend nerfing those slowdown perks did not increase tunnelling as a reaction.
It's simply a chain of reactions
Gens started to pop too fast → Slowdown became meta → Slowdown was nerfed → Slowdown loss is compensated with tunneling
And that is because instead of looking at why solo survs were popping Gens in the first minute of a game, BHVR saw Slowdown as a problem.
Tunneling wasn't part of this conversation, until Slowdown was nerfed because now Killers feel like they need a new tool.
That some Killers were intentionally tunneling even before isn't part of the equation because tunnelling came into this discussion as a consequence to a nerf that was based on a reaction to a shift in gameplay.
The more legitimate ways to achieve your goals you nerf or remove, the more people will instead rush to the low hanging fruit.
Sure, giving Killer alternatives or Rewards for different playstyles is not going to eliminate tunnelling forever, but it is miles better than just nerfing everything and then have surprise Pikachu Face when Tunneling, Camping and slugging become the main ways killers win again.
So what is your point here? "Wha wha, tunneling is a thing?`"
Yeah, and it will keep being a thing. At least as long as people use their endurance to tank hits for their unhooker instead of using it as actual protection against tunneling. -
Survivors the second Pallettes stop being crutches that grind a chase to a halt, writing essays on why an ability that has counterplay available needs to be nerfed for even more counterplay.
The only way Vecna gets a guaranteed hit at a pallette is if you treat a pallette as a crutch to stop a chase after he has basically already caught up to you.
If he reacts to you dropping the pallette by lifting it, either start running the loop and drop it on the next, or re-drop it instantly, you may risk a hit, but you also get a stun. If he is running his Unique Perks that stun is 25% longer.
As much as he can react to you dropping a pallette you can react to his Mage Hand. Which reinforces that Survivor is the role more suited to purely reactionary gameplay. -
@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733791#Comment_3733791
I would argue Flight of the Damned is also a good chase tool. He pretty much has two anti-loop abilities, an anti-w ability, and an intel ability. So I agree he is definitely strong enough. If anything, Mage Hand needs a very small nerf.
Flight of the Damned is a Zero sum.
The survivor loses a bit of speed/momentum to crouch, Vecna loses Speed/Momentum because the Cast slows him down.
After playing Vecna a bit, the only way to reliantly get some hits with it, is using it on a tile when you are not in direct view of the Survivor.
They can still prematurely crouch and avoid, but if they are, for example, waiting around a corner to drop pallette for a stun you may get a hit in, but in a chase it really is mostly a zero sum. -
Regression Perks were a reaction to escalating Repair Times.
And instead of adjusting how different factors impact repair times BHVR, as usual, sided with Survivors and decided to nerf Regression.
And now people are surprised that killers still run regression Perks. Of course they do. They didnt use them because it grinded repairs to a halt, they used them because it was necessary slowdown to a game where within 1 minute of starting the game you could get multiple gen pops.
You didnt give them a reason to not use regression perks, you just reinforced the fact that they need them. -
I played Vecna on release day and a bit yesterday.
I havent had extremely bad games yet, but they are sure to come.
To me he seems like he is only strong against, well, bad survivors?
But that is my mindset in general. Killers always only feel as strong as survivors let them be.
Mage Hand is predictable and both variants give you ways to pay him back, if he lifts you can re-drop it, and either stun or escape from the other side. If he holds you just keep looping.
Mage Hand is only a benefit to him, when he is already very close to you when you approach it.
His Projectiles can be ducked/crouched under.
Dispelling Sphere is really wonky and depending on the verticality of the map may be entirely useless. Also Magic Items can counter it completely
Fly gives you like 2-3 seconds of recovery time when you land, where you not just slow down, but cant attack.
The only thing that has made Vecna fun to play is to see survivors lose their minds when they cant use Pallettes as crutches in chases. -
I think it's funny how Vecna revealed for how many Survivors baiting Killers to a pallette is a crutch in chases.
The second they released a Killer that can do something about pallettes without being required to let themselves be hit (like Knight or Chucky) people go nuts and call him OP
Lifting a pallette is a free invitation for the survivor to just run back and use it again.
Holding a pallette is a free invitation to just keep the loop going.
HIs Skeletons can be dodged by crouching
His Sphere can be made visible by a magic item
Fly has a huge delay before you can attack.
He isnt strong, I suspect in a week or so, he will get demolished by anyone who paid any attention.
Just let people have fun until this week is over, before you cry out how strong he is and they needlessly nerf him again.
The only people who think he is broken or OP are the ones who keep getting hit because their only one-hit wonder strategy is "haha now there is a pallette between us and I can force you into a 50/50 with my flashlight" -
@BougieBlackChick said:
As if killers aren’t on here every day asking for every single survivor item and strong perk to be nerfed into oblivion so they can 4K every single match for life 🤣🤣
Which side is currently so ridiculously underplayed, that they have that +100% Bloodpoints bonus almost 24/7?
Maybe it is time Survivors get nerfed?
I am just saying. Considering the fact that they got BT for free and have that really unfun to play against version of DH now, Survivors seem awefully insistent on getting even more basekit perks.