Minaaa
Minaaa
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- Minaaa
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Has there been mention on some solo queue survivor specific buffs then or na?
Like Is it even a conversation taking place?
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Whenever I log on, usually on a weekend, survivors will have the 100% BP bonus to encourage them to play.
When I watch twitch streams, killer mains are complaining about the queue times.
Hence it can be inferred that survivor numbers have dropped significantly.
If I take my own example I went from playing daily to once every 2 weeks and the patch was 100% the reason I did that.
At least before in solo queue, the stats were more like get wrecked 50% of the time,2 survivors manage to survive 25% of the time and a 4 man escape 25% of the time. I would love to be proven wrong if DBD was willing to share those post and pre-patch numbers with us.
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Yep...the game is in a terrible state.
Killers tunnel even more now since it is even more satisfying to wait out the endurance.
The DBD team really needs to learn some product principles, brining out a massive patch with a ######### ton of changes without incremental testing was insane.
I used to play this game every alternative day, i now play it once every two weeks since it is insanely unbalanced.
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Hi DBD,
If this person is getting a refund i want one too.
The patch is utterly terrible, might as well turn it into a call of duty style game and the killers can just fight each other.
Clearly survivors are not meant to enjoy it.
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@DivineMonkeyKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2155087#Comment_2155087
It definitely does make sense, you're just refusing to acknowledge that it does. If the person that is bodyblocking is good at it, you WON'T get past them, and I'm not trying to hit them, wait through the attack cooldown and then meet the Unhooker at a strong loop, still requiring 2 hits to down them. You're just projecting hard as heck because I'm asking for a perk that was created for anti-tunneling to only function in a way that ACTUALLY prevents tunneling and gets abused as a meat shield for the Unhooker. Not only are you bad at reading and comprehension, you're basic thinking skills need a lot of work as well. You said to wait out 15 seconds (which is more than enough time to either escape or get to an incredibly strong loop), hit them (forcing myself to wait through the attack cooldown, which still gives them time to make it to a loop), or move around the bodyblocker (which is essentially impossible if they are even HALF decent at it). You really don't hear how dumb your points are. On the topic of perks made for bad players, there's a TON of them for Survivors, the most famous one being *ahem* DEAD HARD, the get out of jail free card, the mistake corrector perk, the free extra strong loop perk, but hey, let's ignore that since suggesting fixes to things used beyond their intended purpose is apparently illegal when it's about Survivors.
Stop crying please. I don't need surivors to get nerfed to get my 4k.
Clearly you do which is ok. It's ok to be bad at video games.
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@DivineMonkeyKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2153052#Comment_2153052
So you're saying that the perk that was created to be used for anti-tunneling should not be used for that? You're saying that the person that got unhooked should be the one taking a hit? Again, I mentioned nothing about camping and talked solely about hook bombing and trying to punish the Unhooker for a dumb save just to be bodyblocked by the unhooked Survivor, then they cry about tunneling IF I down them and hook them again. Reading clearly isn't your best strength.
Your logic makes no sense.
If they are doing bad unhooks, they are bad players and doesn't matter if they try and do body blocks you should be able to destroy them if you are half a decent killer. Either wait out the BT, give them the BT hit or, or side step to get the hook saver. If you can't do either of these things just means you are a bad killer who needs more practice.
Why should the perk be changed based on actions of bad players anyways?
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@DivineMonkeyKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2151049#Comment_2151049
BT is not "remotely ok", it is made for anti-tunneling, there should be no reason an anti-tunneling perk should be used as a barrier between the Killer and the Unhooker, at that point the unhooked Survivor isn't being tunneled anymore if they're FORCING themselves in front of the Killer. It's like Decisive Strike all over again (to a lesser extent, though), where it gets used to push the objective aggress9 with a minute of protection, Borrowed Time gets used to guard the Unhooker for 15 seconds, therefore they're NOT being TUNNELED. How is it toxic for wanting to hit the Unhooker? I said that "Protection Hits" shouldn't be counted by Borrowed Time, so they can't bodyblock and I get to hit the Unhooker, and you call that toxic. It's not easy to crap on Survivors either when they have 10+ perks that take no effort or skill to use and completely take away everything a Killer has done. Entitled Survivor Main found!
What do you think is going to happen if a killer is camping and the person taken off hook cant even take a protection hit?
NO ONE WILL EVER COME SAVE THEM
I play both killer and survivor, only difference is i have empathy for survivors because you killer mains want them nerfed to infinity to get even easier wins.
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@LegendaryLee said:
So I recently brought some new players to the game and they were excited to try a new type of game experience and enjoyed it for the most part. That was all until we ended up against a dedicated hook-camping killer. It really ruined the experience for these new players as it was anti-fun and on top of that, the person who got hooked (playing that game for really only 3 minutes) lost rank progression for getting hooked only once (as I'm sure we all have at one point or another), essentially being punished for not being able to play the game.
I'm not one to complain without solutions so here are some concrete solutions (with some tweaking) that I think could solve two parts of this problem.
The first part of the problem is the camping itself. Since we don't have the ability to make the killer leave the hook, I think the answer is to instead make them have to be there longer for the same result. I propose that if the killer is within x distance of the hook (not terror radius since some killers/perks can lower radius), the rate that the hooked survivor is sacrificed is slowed based on how long the killer stays within that distance. The rate returns to normal once they leave but to prevent resetting this degradation by stepping in and out of this range, make the rate never reset for that specific hooking but only apply and accumulate within that range. This does two things by my logic: it either tells the killer to back off a little and hunt other survivors, creating a window and space for teammates to rescue a hooked ally OR if the killer is dead set on claiming that one life, it will give the rest of the team enough time to clear more than enough gens to end the game faster and give some merit to the grief the hooked survivor faced; that's way more satisfying then what the current situation allows. This should all be visual to the killer as well as to give them a visual cue that their style of play could cost them the game. This will be a major help for lower-ranked players who are learning the game and do not have the answers to hook camping and will encourage play from the killer that is more interactive and fun. Lore-wise, I think it could be interesting if the killer's prolonged proximity to the Entity could be a source of interference of sort.
The second half of this problem is de-ranking to this toxicity. It seems entirely unfair for a survivor to lose a pip after not being able to get unhooked (which they have no control of at that point) through two hook states. More importantly, it's a second source of grief from a game that you had to sit through and essentially not play besides smashing the struggle button on the hook for god knows how long: it's no fun without a doubt and why do something that's not fun- that feeling hurts the game. There will be some who say "just don't get hooked" but sometimes it's unavoidable and, for new players, getting hooked may be a certainty. I propose, in line with the previous change I suggested, have the hooked survivor accumulate points based on how long the killer stays within the x distance proposed earlier on the basis that they are sacrificing themselves at that point to occupy the killer's attention. Could it even be reasonable to give them some sort of assist points for every objective completed while the killer occupies that suggested space? I think something along these lines could be very healthy for the game as it's bad enough that you got griefed by a killer but the fact that the game itself then penalizes you further; losing a pip is minor but it feels bad and this shouldn't more than it already does.
The third idea I have is separate from the previous two but utilizes principles from the first part. What if there was a perk that filled up a token (similar to something like detective's hunch) that allowed the hooked survivor to unhook themselves and give them endurance so that they could escape safely. The condition for allowing you to use this perk is that the killer stays within x distance of the hook for however long we feel is balanced. This is a simple idea but I think its existence alone could be a deterrent for this behavior.
Thanks for reading, I'd appreciate some thoughts and input on this. This is a great game and I'd love to see it keep getting better.
I really like the first idea.
I admit that whenever i feel like i might not get a 4k i will camp the hook for a bit and boom the entire game falls apart for the survivors.
I was just in a game where it was obvious one survivor was a red rank and i was playing doctor for the first time so i thought might as well see if the other 3 can get him off the hook. Poor purple ranks didn't stand a chance and once he died i got rid of the rest with 2 gens to go. Plays like this should not be possible.
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Borrowed time should be made base kit.
Absolutely staggering me how killer mains just want every remotely ok perk to be nerfed.
Imagine running a perk purely so you don't get tunnelled and still have killer mains complain about it because it makes them being toxic slightly harder. Honestly i feel bad about how easy it is to crap on survivors.
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Agreed.
I understand the game is killer sided, fine whatever but then the constant nerfing of survivors on top of that doesn't make any sense.
I also play killer and a 4k/3k is beyond easy, the second i feel like am going to lose i will just tunnel one survivor and their game will fall apart.
I have been badly beaten by red rank SWF's like 3,4 times but those have been rare exceptions to me getting a 4k.
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DS was always extremely easy to counter, i have never had someone use DS on me where i wasnt either expecting it or i didnt down them 10 seconds later. Continue nerfing survivors and buffing killers and eventually all you will ever face is one SWF after the next.
Am sure all the killers would love that :)
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Why don't you killer mains just start hacking and get it over with?
Every single thing in this game points to it being killer sided, if a killer only walks away with a 3k suddenly the survivors are OP.
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I feel like DBD is in this bubble and one day all the survivors will finally get sick of solo queue and the game will die.
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@KingFrost said:
I'm still curious as to how they can even determine 'skill' in a game like DBD.
Is a Survivor in a SWF who bring in four BNP's, who throws every pallet immediately and escapes every game better than the survivor who lasts 3 minutes in a chase, throwing only one unsafe pallet but who dies because they get camped by the killer with NoED?
Is a killer with 8 hooks (but 0 deaths) and no perks, no add-ons, and playing a low tier killer (Like Pig or Trapper) on a map like Red Forest worse than a killer with 4 hooks, 4 kills, NoED, Save The Best For Last, Stridor, and Pop Goes The Weasel on Spirit with the best add-ons on Shelter Woods where no pallets spawned on half the map?
You are thinking in terms of one match though.
Over a course of a 100 games a good MMR system based on sound logic would realise where you truly stand in the game.
For example a survivor that generally loops a killer for 2+ minutes or escapes chases, does 2 gens a game, safe unhooks and doesn't use too many pallets equals a good player. Surviving a match in my opinion is the least important factor to determine who is good and who isnt.
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@tomas11403 said:
Honestly, there are suspicions that MMR is secretly working in the background right now. Maybe you had done well with a killer for a few games in a row, and those survivors had low MMR (wouldn't surprise me given that many red ranks are just as skilled as green/yellow), and you guys may have actually had a close enough MMR for it to be balanced. Don't judge how good people are based off of their rank, base it off of how they play in game. I've had endgame screens with two rank 1s and 2 rank 12s, but I could not have told you who was who in game, they were all that bad.
I also think MMR is already secretly in play which would be even sadder since it's not doing a great job.
That SWF however destroyed me...they were insanely co-ordinated so it didnt make a lick of sense for me to be matched up against them.
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VPN would result in major lag.
A region select option can you get in a game with ping ranging from 80 - 160 if you select a reasonably close location to you
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Yes, they get an advantage.
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@Dragonshensi said:
Just today I’ve had at least ten matches where someone DCs. That’s not including just dying on the first hook even though I’m right there to pull them off. I don’t know if survivors are just fed up with the latest update or I’m getting a lot of quitting Quintins on me
Did my first DC when the killer magically showed up on the other side of the pallet.
Too much managing the enormous hit boxes and now the teleportation.
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@CashelP14 said:
I love bloodpoints but I feel like it's a cheap way of saying sorry.
If they really mean it then we'd get shards.
We are never getting shards.
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@TripleSteal said:
Rewards are irrelevant, an early hotfix is the priority.
I will be even more realistic and just a planned date for the hotfix release would be nice.
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Replace blood points with shards...that seems like a realistic demand for this terrible patch that is preventing us from playing the game.
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@Shirokinukatsukami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/226338/a-million-blood-points-each
I don't need bloodpoints.
Stop being so entitled. We don't need or deserve bloodpoints. We deserve a better HUD, bug fixes and better content. I'd be happy with those.
Yeah you are not getting those so might as well settle for some blood points.
Shards would be nice.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1915503#Comment_1915503
Smarter than you, apparently. Do you want a FULL list of all the Perks and Gear you can use to locate Totems? Just how hard do you want me to hit you with the rhetorical sledgehammer? Again, it behooves someone new to the game to learn the basics of it before making statements that will haunt you here for a long time. Right now, we don't expect you to know anything. Treat this moment as a valuable education tool. Ruin combined with the Hex: Undying (in current form) can be a challenge to get rid of. The Hex: Ruin without that added steroid is just another lit Totem, i.e. easily found and cleansed.
So in the parlance of this Forum the best advice I can give you is DO BONES.
I am well versed in the game thanks.
I don't see brining a red map or a mostly useless perk like small game into every single game as a reasonable counter.
Also doesn't erase the fact you have to run around the map hunting for a hex which is no fun.
The point of perks is to make the game more enjoyable, challenging or to switch things up.
Hex ruin just makes it more annoying and frustrating.
Bad design plain and simple.
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@tomas11403 said:
I think it's very important to clarify something, and please don't just jump at my throat :)
When people say this game is survivor sided, they say this when referring to a high level of play. What I mean by this is not red ranks, as from thousands of hours in this game I would guess that up to 80% of all red rank players (on both sides) would not be there in an ideal MMR system. I don't say this to be mean, I say this because this game has a steep learning curve (allow me to explain). I think that this learning curve is the main reason for the concept of a killer sided game, and it makes sense that this happens. I believe that killer is much easier at the lower levels of play, whereas survivor is more difficult (this is assuming you are actually trying to play optimally, not just being immersed. As you gain experience and climb the rankings, you get to a decent level of survivor. I would define this as someone who isn't scared of the killer, does gens almost always when they aren't getting chased, and have a decent concept of looping fundamentals. These kinds of players exist across all ranks, however the ranking system doesn't always favor this playstyle, as a mistake while looping can set you back.
Once you get to this level, and move up the learning curve to this point, I find that this is where the game becomes balanced to survivor sided. I can't just say one way or the other, as there are so many variables in play that each trial is different (perks, addons, swf/solo q). Before you reach this level, however, it's completely understandable that you would find the game killer sided. Killer is much easier to pick up, as simply following survivors and cutting them off as necessary will catch most survivors you face. When this is the low standard for playing killer, compared to the difficult learning curve for survivor, the game will obviously seem unbalanced for someone who hasn't reached as far up that curve yet.
Again, this is not an attack on anyone. I'm simply saying that survivor takes a much longer time to become a decent player compared to killer, which leads to it seeming like the game is killer-sided, when in reality its just that killer is easier to learn. I should clarify, I don't think killer is easier when both sides are good players, just in terms of learning the role.
What i glean from this is that MMR might solve all our problems (fingers crossed).
I do watch some DBD streamers who are clearly at that highest tier skill level wise...while they dominate in SWF as soon as they go solo their chances of surviving drops drastically. I don't know if MMR can resolve such a glaring disparity.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1875948#Comment_1875948
If you think that supports your view, allow me to correct you.
How many Survivors are in a match? 4, right? 75% of 4 is 3. 68% means that the Killer is getting two people on average. Meaning Survivors finished all the gens and escaped through the Gates.
Also, like I've REPEATEDLY said, these stats mean NOTHING without context. A 4K with a Mori in play is different than a 4K with 12 hooks and 4 gens done.
The game is pretty close to being balanced. There are still some horribly Survivor-sided maps, but were mostly okay. There are still some problem perks *cough DS* but we are mostly good on that front too. Some Killer's, mainly Huntress, have some add-ons that need changed and there are still god loops that need removed.
That being said, if you took the best Survivors who made no mistakes and the best Killer who made no mistakes, most Killers on the roster would lose.
68% is closer to 75.
If they were getting 2 kills on average the percentage would be closer to 50.
Why does it matter what circumstances caused the survivor to die???
In black and white it pretty much means that survivors on average will go into matches to die and killers will most of the time walk away with a 3k.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1875804#Comment_1875804
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IQYRGEFS18C3/u3ockhk.jpeg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3XHUO6RG896Z/sjvhjks.jpeg
It actually doesn't really show anything, like I said. Objectively weak Killers like Trapper and Myers are fairly high up on the list, while the strongest Killer, Nurse, is the lowest by FAR.
It is also worthy to note that the only Killer reaching 3 kills on average is Freddy, who is getting nerfed.
Here are your stats with zero context @Minaaa
Wow thanks so much for sharing this.
Looking at the stats i think this supports my view...at red rank 68% of killers get 2-3 kills.
That means one survivor got away using the hatch so pretty much a loss for a survivors in my opinion.
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@scottymo said:
The problem is all the killer mains will now show up and try to rebut. Many threads crying killers are weak which is pure comedy gold.
You know they might be right....who the hell knows.
That's why i would to see the stats so we know which side has the right to complain.
Currently i am just talking from my experience that it absolutely sucks to be in solo queue at red rank.
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@Axx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1875644#Comment_1875644
The only reason you 4k 95% of the time is because most players can't play survivor well. How is this the killer being OP and not on the survivors not improving and playing better? Why do actual decent survivor players have no issue usually outside of dealing with low skilled teammates as a solo? You wouldn't 4k 95% of the time if you went vs even a decent team every game. Vs truly good teams, you will struggle to even get a 1k most of the time on the majority of the killers. Literally, to make sure you have a chance vs the rare good or decent swf, people play nothing but meta killers while using meta perks. On survivor, even as solo, I can always use off meta things and still do well on a personal level. On killer, you can't do that.
Don't you see something wrong with that though??
I am not a good killer...average at best but i always get a 4k.
I am a good survivor (you don't have to believe me), but i lose the majority of my games.
I kid you not i have seen in red rank
- Survivor gets hooked
- Survivor clearly being camped & tunnelled by the killer but getting unhooked by team mates without BT & then not even taking a hit for him/her
- Survivor dies and killer repeats the exact damn thing with a 2nd survivor
Maybe this will be solved with MMR and there is also a desperate need for voice chat so survivors can co-ordinate.
Doesn't really make sense that on one end you have a fully co-ordinated 4 man SWF making killers cry and on the other end the exact opposite. Balance pleaseeeeeeeeeeee
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@TauNkosi said:
I used to think this game favored killers over survivors. Then I actually played killer. I suggest you do the same. It's eye opening.
I have started playing killer.
Finding so far:
- 4k in 95% of my games (currently in purple rank, i have zero doubts ill be in red rank soon)
- Don't enjoy playing killer as much cause they do have to be focused throughout the game
- It's too unfair for survivors....it just is. Way too easy to force altruism when you think the game is going downhill.
- I don't touch red add-ons because the game might as well be over the second it starts, purple and green also quite OP.
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@Yamaoka said:
Title should be "sick of bot teammates".
Killer gameplay is hard and stressful the second a DECENT (not even god like) SWF team joins the lobby. Why is that the case?
It's not just communication. It's also the fact they're actually DOING gens.
Meanwhile solo queue with Bond:
You see people
- hiding in random corners on red ranks especially at the start of the game because no one wants to get chased even though it's braindead easy against most killers.
- crawling behind objects as soon as they're injured doing nothing.
- plundering chests.
- tbagging together in the basement (I once looped a Wraith for multiple minutes in 1 single chase expecting all gens to pop, then saw all 3 teammates tbagging each other in the basement when I got caught and hooked. After the match the killer told me they were trolls that did nothing but HEAD ON attempts all game).
Maybe the MMR system that drops next patch will sort things out. Right now it's safe to say that 90% of all red rank and even purple rank survivors belong to yellow ranks based on their decision making and looping.
I agree with you that killer gameplay is hard against a SWF.
My opinion is the devs need to deal with the reality of the situation that the game completely changes based on if you are in a swf or not.
If most people are in a swf however then i guess solo queue can just suck it up or move to a different game.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1875560#Comment_1875560
Here how about this. 1v1 me in a kyf. I'm not the best killer but I win most of my matches swf or not. If you go down to me easy it's your skill and you dont deserve red rank (not trying to be mean or make assumptions) and If you wreck me then you get some GOOD killers.
I don't follow...what would a 1v1 entail in a 4v1 game?
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@bingbongboi90 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/219783/sick-of-this-killer-sided-game
Hex undying got nerfed because survivors like to cry and the queu time of survivor is really long compared to killers.
So if this game is any side it is survivor sided.
Hex Ruin also needs to be re-worked.
I wont say it needs to be nerfed but currently it works around pure luck which should not be the case.
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@Blueberry said:
I think if you played killer up into rank 1 you would have a very different opinion.
Do you think the game is survivor sided in solo queue red rank?
Against a 4 man swf i would agree with you that killers have a hard run.
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@Axx said:
If the game is so killer sided, why are queues for solo survivor so long? Also, don't forget how long it takes for a 4 man SWF to find a killer. Most players just don't understand how to play survivor well. This is what makes the game seem killer sided. I personally only have an issue with Spirit, and I'm a solo survivor player. Every other killer is fairly easy to deal with, barring an actual good Nurse, which can even still be fun to run at times. Also, being red rank means nothing. People that can't even loop shack get rank 1 due to the game not requiring you to actually improve skill wise to rank up. All you have to do to hit rank 1 is play often, and do enough to safety pip so you never lose pips, which is super easy to do.
Honestly i have no clue why survivor queues are long.
For me the long queue times only started happening recently, even though i have pretty much always been in red rank so i don't know what has changed .
I agree with you that red rank doesn't necessarily mean you are good at the game.
Frankly my statement in the post was click bait...what am really after is cold hard analytics so all of us players can know if the game is balanced or not. From my experience i don't think it is and i believe the stats will back me.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/219783/sick-of-this-killer-sided-game
I won't be mean because i know you just started. This game is only killer sided at low ranks
I am red rank.
I barely survive 5% of my games in solo queue at this rank.
I can understand it would be very tough for a killer against a red rank swf but how often does that happen??
Hence, the reason i would like to see some stats so all of us can know the truth instead of guessing.
I will be happy if the stats say :
"it's 50 50 for killers and survivors" and then i shall know that iam just bad and need to improve.
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@xCarrie said:
So can:
DS+BT+Adrenaline+Unbreakable (Key)
Unbreakable+DS+OOO+Adrenaline
DH+DS+BT+PTS (Toolbox)
OOO+DH+SB+IW (Medkit)
But it doesn’t happen all the time, it’s annoying yes but it’s not like every game is that. If it is then yikes but I guarantee solo is not instadeath as you say.
The perks you mentioned cannot be brought into a solo queue game.
You need to bring kindred and BT.
Adrenaline is total luck in solo queue so bring it at your own peril.
Frankly i don't understand the hate for keys, i have never brought one in a game and have only seen others bring it in like 1% of the games.
When a key can actually be used the game is pretty much decided already in favour one side or the other.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/219783/sick-of-this-killer-sided-game
It sounds like you just had a bad game at a low rank. That isn't an insult, that's just what I'm gathering.
Ruin, Undying and NOED are all dependent on Survivors. If you want them out of the game, you can remove them PERMANATLY from the match.
Face camping is fairly easily countered by doing gens quickly. If the Killer insists on camping one person, you can pop at LEAST 3 gens before said person dies.
Hard tunneling, like face camping, only works at lower ranks. It IS in the Killer's best interest to remove a Survivor from the game as fast as possible, as a 4v1 is massively against them.
Some red add-ons do need to be changed, but most of them are fine.
Your idea to release stats will do nothing. There are far too many variables. A 4K with 5 hooks is MUCH different than a 4K with 12 hooks. Likewise, a 4 man escape with 8 hooks is much different than a 4 man escape with zero hooks.
I am a red rank survivor.
What you said makes perfect sense to me and it works flawlessly with a swf who realise they can easily counter this.
In random solo queue people just don't work like this and killers know that they wont get punished for it !!
Also Hex ruin is so hard to find, does a game like dbd really need to be so luck based?
Disagree with you on the stats, the variables you mentioned should also be stated.
I would love nothing more to be wrong and find that both sides have an even go off it.
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If they get "reworked" it's going to end up being a nerf.
Not like it needs a buff.
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Sounds like most people agree Ebony Mori needs a nerf.
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I only started this game 3 weeks ago & i have already encountered multiple games with Ebony Mori.
There is not a snow balls chance in hell average killers can put up a fight against that.
Good to hear that the devs are going to rework it.
I don't take keys into matches, doesn't sound like much fun.
All about giving both parties a fair shot.