Little_Kitten
Little_Kitten
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His chase music is too loud, especially for the fact that it prevents her from having the same understanding of her sound environment as before 🙄
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@thighchamp said:
Hey, I'm relatively new to this game. I'm only prestige 1 on one killer and prestige 1 on one survivor, but I can't help but notice how the Nurse seems really unbalanced. And I asked my friends who also play and they say that it's well-known that the Nurse is unbalanced and it has been for a long time. Is there any reason she hasn't been nerfed or removed? Just wondering. Thoughts? There's literally no way to escape her.
The nurse is the most powerful killer in the game. This is an indisputable fact.
However, like all killers, she has counterplays and weaknesses.
There are many ways to improve against her.
Of course, practice.
However, given that we do not meet the nurse at each game, the progress gap is quite slow, which means that we are quickly able to manage the other killers correctly, while struggling against the nurse.
Watch videos of tournaments and/or high-level players.
This allows you to see expert survivors against expert nurses, and to understand how they manage to waste as much time as possible.
Another thing: ask someone you know, and who is good with the nurse, to play 1V1 games with you, in order to train to become better against her.
And finally, play yourself as a nurse, in order to see what works against you (her) and thus reproduce that in your private 1V1 or public games.
Prior to the latest update, she was a little more powerful than now, and yet even the best nurses could be challenged by coordinated, organized, and time-consuming teams.
And above all, not to forget if the other killers are "classic" enemies, the nurse is the boss of the game.
We do not face a semi-boss in the same way as with the final boss.
You have to be more prepared, have a much more coordinated team, whose members know each other and each of them is more or less competent against the nurse.
We simply can't get the same results against the nurse if we don't put more involvement and efficiency into the game than with another killer.
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@FMG15 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HCEP4BRTDWMI/p100-nurse.jpg
It took me about 3.5 months. I've spent 3 months playing her barebone during this period. I'm just happy that this is over.
Billy is next.
GG 🤗
The good thing about Prestige is that at least it's only a BP thing, so you don't have to tryhard like some killers do on the 12th of each month because they absolutely want to go to Iridescent I; it allows you to vary the builds, like the barebone ☺️
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@Warlord1981NL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329259#Comment_3329259
Neither are all killers who use Eruption experts, a perk that is barely used as-is and yet the forum is full of whiny ass survivors crying about non-existing problems.
Well, let's not exaggerate, there is still a small difference between a simple pallet and window aura tracking perk, and one as powerful as Eruption 🤣
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@Kaffry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329411#Comment_3329411
What changes do you propose? Because she definitely needs them.
Before the 6.4 --> 6.5 update, the nurse could already be challenged by organized and fast opponents.
After the arrival of 6.5, this is even more true.
She doesn't need any changes (some of the changes in 6.5 were not really necessary...).
Where I do agree is that training to play AGAINST the nurse is something that takes longer than training to play against a killer who doesn't blink, since she is the only one who does that. You can get someone who is a main nurse to do 1V1, play yourself as a nurse to understand her strengths and weaknesses, record your games so you can do your own feedback and improve, etc.
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@hiken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328694#Comment_3328694
the one that ignores DBD?.
then the other comment i just dont discuss with dumbo arguments, wait, was that an argument?... aura reading perks on nurse are dumb, and some nurse maisn with thousand of hours suggested that change aswell... but im not gonna discuss this with someone so biased.
It's pretty smart to keep only what suits you, but you have to consider all the elements.
The more aura perks a killer uses, the less control he has over the generators.
I sometimes play full aura reading perks on my nurse, and I can assure you that the repair speed is not the same.
So obviously, against a completely disorganized team, it's not too bad; some teams are so lost that even without perks, it would be possible to get very good results. But against an organized and fast team, it changes a lot.
Also, aura perks are not 100% wins, given the number of survivors playing with Distortion or Boon: Shadow Step.
Especially since not all aura perks are equally dangerous.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329697#Comment_3329697
I base my opinions in my game experience (over 3000 hours) using and playing against Nurse. I am able to play against and have seen survivors who know how to play against Nurse. Even when I have a bad chase against her, I usually last longer than the vast majority of my teammates. I can’t draw any other conclusion than people don’t want to learn. As Nurse, an alarming number of people either don’t try to dodge me at all or they try to loop tiles as if she is a basic killer. The playerbase is the problem, not Nurse.
I'm going to repeat myself, but I'm going to recall the anecdote that happened to me once.
On Backwater, I'm facing a Haddie.
I down her in less than 10s, watch in hand.
She was doing almost nothing but straight lines, no back, no double back, no loops in complicated places for me.
After the game, I went to see her profile: it was a 3500+h TTV.
I watched some of her videos.
He's pretty good against other killers.
But against the nurse, he's terrible.
During the game, at one point he said, "Okay, him, he's good with the nurse, there's no problem, he's very very good with the nurse."
No, that had nothing to do with it. I had just touched him because he was running straight and he barely tried to turn slightly at the end.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329715#Comment_3329715
So let's take this argument at face value. That every complaint about her is just based in "feelings". How does that invalidate the argument?
Because this is a game, and if a game's mechanic is making the game less fun for a significant portion of the playerbase, it is a poorly designed mechanic.
And more importantly, how do you justify any of the nerfs in the past 7 years if not with "This feels bad to play against"? What was so special about Spirit that made her warrant a nerf? How about Ruin? Decisive Strike? Dead Hard? Moris? Keys? The basekit Killer buffs? I mean, Spirit wasn't even the strongest Killer at the time. In every case, the game was, if not balanced, then at least functional at the time. Comp players at the highest skill level could have a balanced match, depending on the ruleset.
So what is it? What's the secret ingredient that makes you say "Yes, a change is warranted"?
From the moment someone asks for a character to be nerfed because the reason is that he/she doesn't like to play against, or can't get good results against (when it is nevertheless possible), it is an opinion, the consequence of a feeling, and not a concrete fact / reality.
To say that if a mechanic is not fun, it is because it is badly designed, is a fallacious argument, because it is a huge shortcut.
A player will not be able to be 100% ecstatic about every element of the game.
Some players don't like Legion, some don't like the Clown, some don't like this or that perk, some don't like this or that addon, some don't like getting hooked in less than 10s, some don't like it, etc.
But these are just opinions.
A fact will always prevail over an opinion.
There will always be players who don't like the nurse; that's not new. It is a unique killer, the only one with this difficulty and displacement. And the only one that requires its opponents to try harder, and be more coordinated.
Justify the previous nerves? Some are understandable, some are not.
Taking away the ability to have 5 blinks with 0 cooldown is completely understandable.
Making it so she can't use NOED or Starstruck anymore, I also completely understand.
Removing her recharge and range addons was not necessary.
Depends on the nerf.
Just because a nerf is put in place doesn't necessarily mean it was necessary and/or justified.
However, for example, even though I don't agree with removing her range and recharge addons, I figure it will make her a little less oppressive.
It will also help to see which players, on the other hand, don't know how to make any effort, and would rather continue to complain just because "I don't like the nurse, I don't want to make any effort."
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329545#Comment_3329545
Fine, I went and looked it up (Glad to see you took the opportunity to badmouth me behind my back, by the way). Even asked him myself right before a Knight match on Garden of Joy. To paraphrase slightly, he told me "In theory, it has no counterplay. If a Nurse is trying to kill you, you're going to die unless they're omega-boosted, but the same is true of a NOED Bubba tunneling you. That doesn't mean there's no counterplay. You can counterplay a Nurse, she's just really strong."
So, fine, I was wrong. I will not claim that Nurse has no counterplay whatsoever. But that doesn't mean she's fine as-is, so let's move on to other talking points, shall we?
Such as, Nurse is too strong. Luckily, we have an easy fix that would hardly even require any new code: Spasmodic Breath basekit.
Nurse's counterplay is tilted too heavily in her favor (Pre-nerf Spirit comes to mind).
Nurse ignores too many gameplay mechanics (If Nurse knows where you are and is within ~24 meters of you, she can hit you, very quickly and consistently at that. No exceptions. No other Killer can claim that).
"Such as, Nurse is too strong. Luckily, we have an easy fix that would hardly even require any new code: Spasmodic Breath basekit."
To say that the nurse is above all other killers, yes, of course; to say that she requires much more control from her opponents than other killers, of course, is quite correct.
That someone (you, or anyone else) does NOT appreciate having to deal with a killer of this difficulty is completely understandable, but that doesn't mean she's not fine the way she is, nor does it mean that any of this is anything other than a feeling.
And again, this proposition about the Spasmodic breath is not the consequence of a real problem, but simply an opinion that does not reflect a reality.
"Nurse's counterplay is tilted too heavily in her favor (Pre-nerf Spirit comes to mind)."
Since we're talking about the nurse's counterplay, I wouldn't say it's leaning in her favor.
Rather, I would say that it is the most complicated counterplay in DbD, as it will require the survivors to not only play differently than against any other killer, to be much sharper in their actions and decisions, and to surround themselves with a really strong team if they are to compete with the very good nurses.
Afterwards, of course, against nurses who are struggling, even if the 4 survivors are not experts, they will still be able to get good results, of course.
"Nurse ignores too many gameplay mechanics (If Nurse knows where you are and is within ~24 meters of you, she can hit you, very quickly and consistently at that. No exceptions. No other Killer can claim that)."
The problem with this sentence is that you are just talking about the gamedesign. Yes, the nurse is the killer with the most powerful move. Indeed, she can be the most oppressive; of course, if you compare her to other killers, for the same mistake, in front of the nurse, it can be much more oppressive.
But that's just the definition of a nurse.
That's what she is. And that's what survivors have to deal with when they face her. And they can.
So maybe some people don't like the fact that they have to raise their level of defense higher than the other killers, but that's just a feeling, an opinion.
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I really suggest that you play as a nurse, on a regular basis, so that you can eventually face more and more powerful teams.
You will then realize how absurd and irrelevant these proposals are.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329129#Comment_3329129
When the gameplay of people like Hens is brought up, tournament-winning players who say that Nurse has no counterplay, you don't care.
When people explain that the main reason Nurse can be challenged by good teams has nothing to do with learning how to chase her and everything to do with good macro play, you don't care.
When people point out that the Flashlight buys you an extra 2-3 seconds at best against a good Nurse, and that a Medkit would save you more time in the long run, you don't care.
When people point out that the top comp players in the world say that there's nothing you can do against a good Nurse but work on your macro play, you don't care.
When people point out that the existence of bad nurses doesn't prove anything, you don't care.
When people point out that a good Nurse has basically no counterplay, you move the goalposts and claim that all that matters is whether or not she's viable, or whether or not you can win against her.
When people point out that Nurse's main limitation is that it's only physically possible for her to dish out so many hits in a certain timeframe, and that good macro play is the main form of "counterplay" against her, you don't care.
In short, when people point out the many, many obvious flaws in your reasoning, you ignore/dismiss it and act like you won the argument anyway.
I am not avoiding any argument, and I am completely willing to discuss it.
"When people explain that the main reason Nurse can be challenged by good teams has nothing to do with learning how to chase her and everything to do with good macro play, you don't care."
I confess I don't understand what you're saying: if a survivor team manages to get good results against a nurse, it has nothing to do with knowing how to make chases against her?
"When people point out that the Flashlight buys you an extra 2-3 seconds at best against a good Nurse, and that a Medkit would save you more time in the long run, you don't care."
I never said that this or that object is better or worse, I was only referring to the people who are very happy to say "The flashlight is useless against the nurse. The flashlight IS useful against the nurse, if it is used correctly. But I completely agree that everyone has the right to use whatever object they want.
"When people point out that the top comp players in the world say that there's nothing you can do against a good Nurse but work on your macro play, you don't care."
What do you mean by "work on your macro play" ?
"When people point out that the existence of bad nurses doesn't prove anything, you don't care."
I don't remember saying that the existence of beginning nurses proved anything? What is it supposed to prove ?
"When people point out that a good Nurse has basically no counterplay, you move the goalposts and claim that all that matters is whether or not she's viable, or whether or not you can win against her."
The phrase that comes up very often and always makes me laugh is, "The nurse has no counterplay." Because that is an absolutely false phrase.
On the other hand, it's obvious that a nurse has a more complicated counterplay, but that's obvious, and everyone knows it.
"When people point out that Nurse's main limitation is that it's only physically possible for her to dish out so many hits in a certain timeframe, and that good macro play is the main form of "counterplay" against her, you don't care."
Again, what do you mean by "macro" ?
"When the gameplay of people like Hens is brought up, tournament-winning players who say that Nurse has no counterplay, you don't care."
Are you saying that Hens said that the nurse has no counterplay?
So no, contrary to what you seem to want to indicate, I am always open to any discussion.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327252#Comment_3327252
There has never been any reason to try to loop her. (And maybe that's why some survivors struggle so much against Nurse)
Loop a nurse is useless?
That's probably why Dan is one of the best Nurse Loopers around...
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The rate of use of a perk is not necessarily related to its dangerousness.
Not all survivors who use this perk are experts.
And as a corollary, the best survivors in the game do not necessarily use this perk.
I don't see how it is a problem.
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It was always intended that players could play together, it is part of the game's basekit, so what could be more normal?
Especially since SWF =/= power.
4 survivors can be in SWF and still be bad in the game.
The question is simple: what would you like to do about SWF?
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@mr_Beast_Artist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/362414/nurse-suggestions-to-improve-counterplay
Great ideas! How I wish they were already in the game. I somehow offered my concepts and ideas.
1. make sure that the nurse does not see traces after the teleport
2. after teleporting, she gets blinded like from a flashlight
3. a nurse can teleport only one object (mesh)
4.only the first teleport of the nurse can fly over all objects and the second teleport moves only over the landscape of the map
5.after damaging a survivor, the nurse has an additional cooldown on teleports
Only 2 kind of ppl can seriously give these proposals : trolls or player who are bad against nurse. It is up to you to tell me.
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There is also something else that is sad, and that gives a good idea of the mentality of some people.
(first of all, I'm not saying that those who defend the nurse are all nice and those who are against the nurse are all bad, I've seen some people ask for the nurse to be buff because they couldn't play her... anyway)
When someone says something that goes in the direction of the "anti-nurse", then his words are taken up, repeated, amplified, and become almost an anthem.
On the other hand, strangely ...
- when we ask those who criticize the nurse to show how they play against her, nobody answers anymore;
- when we talk about the fact that even the best nurses in the game can be challenged by strong teams, nobody answers anymore;
- when we tell them that YES the flashlight IS effective against the nurse, nobody answers anymore; or else to say that it is insignificant;
- when we tell them to go see what Dan can do with a flashlight against a nurse, nobody answers anymore;
- when we tell them to go see what Dan can do against a nurse, and his level of "anti-nurse", nobody answers anymore;
- when we tell them that in 6.4, even the best nurses could have trouble, and therefore even more so in 6.5, nobody answers anymore;
- when we tell them that it is not what the nurse can do that matters, but whether she is viable or not (and she is), no one answers anymore;
- when you point out that even the best nurses in a tournament play dirty and camp/tunnel to make sure they win (which goes against the whole concept of an all-powerful person), no one answers;
In short, when FACTS are shown, strangely enough ... no one responds anymore.
Is there such a thing as a higher level of hypocrisy and selfishness?
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@mr_Beast_Artist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327943#Comment_3327943
No, he says that's right, the nurse is incredibly strong. Only addons that no one used were nerfed.
And I myself play nurse without perks and win without problems. If you need to take the rainbow rank, I take it and do not feel any difficulty.
See how it wins 500 games in a row without perks and draw conclusions
Who did 500 wins in a row without perks ?
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328864#Comment_3328864
Honestly, I think Blight is a pretty good example of what a top-tier Killer SHOULD look like. His power is pretty disgusting in the right hands, but he still plays by the rules of the game for the most part. I haven't seen him get anywhere near the level of complaints that pre-nerf Spirit did, despite being in the exact same position as the second-best Killer in the game, and the most popular in high MMR. The only things I'd say are really worth looking into at all are his addons, not his basekit.
I really haven't seen the dynamic you're talking about in DbD discourse. It's usually been a constant back-and-forth between Survivor and Killer mains. Killers will get buffed in one update, then nerfed in the next. Survivors get buffed in one update, nerfed in the next. Moris are nerfed, then keys are nerfed. Killers get basekit buffs, then Survivors get solo queue buffs.
Well, you'll notice that the complaints about Spirit have largely ceased since her nerfs, and they didn't just move on to Blight as one might expect, him being the new second-best Killer and all. No, almost all of the complaints are centered around Nurse exclusively now. Survivors will probably find something new to complain about (My bets are on perks or tunneling), but at the end of the day, people hate Nurse for a reason. She ends chases in a ridiculously short timeframe, and nothing can stand in her way. Take steps to address the reasons people hate her, and the hate decreases accordingly.
"but he still plays by the rules of the game for the most part"
That's the problem with this kind of talk.
The people who are against the nurse have "decided" that "according to the rules of DbD" the nurse is unnatural and is "violating" those rules.
You can't decide to create imaginary rules just to provide material for your argument.
This doesn't make sense. The question is not what a killer can or cannot do, the question is whether a killer is viable or conversely impossible to deal with.
It can be repeated as often as necessary, but the nurse is not unbeatable. She wasn't in 6.4 and she isn't in 6.5.
Yes, the nurse can walk through walls.
Yes, the nurse can walk through the pallets.
Yes, the nurse can go through windows.
Yes, the nurse is the most powerful killer in the game.
Yes, the nurse can move quickly from one floor to another.
But that doesn't change the fact that she is not unbeatable.
And it doesn't change the fact that Nurse has counterplay.
And you can feel that it bothers you. But it doesn't change anything.
"people hate Nurse for a reason. She ends chases in a ridiculously short timeframe, and nothing can stand in her way"
On the one hand, if you want to be specific, then you need to rephrase your sentence.
"SOME" people hate the nurse.
And not for the reasons you suggest.
These people hate the nurse because she asks them to play differently than they would like. And that they just don't want to improve, preferring to complain, over and over again.
They hate the nurse because she offers something different than what the other 29 killers require.
You complainers have created YOUR vision of the game, in which all killers are walkers, because YOU have decided that if originality is something YOU don't like, then it shouldn't exist.
Without thinking for a second about all the players who like to use the nurse.
Without thinking for a second about all the players who like the Nurse and its unique gamedesign, and who play it without trying to tryhard like sweaty killers.
Without thinking about the players who get all the salt in the world because they dare to play the only original killer of DbD.
And then they come and talk to me about equality and all these nice considerations for a better world.
What hypocrisy, what selfishness.
I really advise you to go and take lessons with Hens and his team, or other survivors of their level.
Or move on to another game.
An anecdote to finish.
Just last night, I played against a team on the new map.
I did 3K, because the last one got the hatch.
The end chat? We chatted for 2-3 minutes laughing, joking about some funny things that happened in the game. One of them said "gg, although I would have preferred to get out, lol".
AND THAT'S IT.
This is what the spirit of the game is supposed to be. You try, you try, you play, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
When I play against nurses as a survivor, I don't care if I die.
You know what the only thing I regret, when I play a nurse? That most of the time, my mates and I are not good enough to play her, because then the game doesn't last very long, and I can't train as much as I would like against her.
So when I see the incessant complaining, crying and more selfish requests we see on the forum, I really wonder what part of the DbD population it is representative of.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328847#Comment_3328847
Exactly how does adding a limitation to Nurse's power "completely destroy" her game design? Was Legion's game design completely destroyed when they lost the ability to down with Feral Frenzy?
So if the strongest Killer in the game isn't too strong, a Killer that renders the chasing skills of tournament-level players largely irrelevant, then what exactly DOES constitute "too strong" for you? Why should I humor you when you move the goalposts?
The nurse does not need to be further nerfed.
She didn't need it in 6.4, and doesn't need it in 6.5.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328802#Comment_3328802
Did I not present a viable change that works for all levels of play? Spasmodic Breath basekit. Maybe the numbers would need to be adjusted, but it would make Nurse feel a lot more "fair" to play against, even if her power still ignores most of the game's mechanics. Because much like Oni or Legion, the fact that half the time, you're just playing against a normal M1 Killer makes it a lot more bearable when they do something crazy that you had no real way to avoid.
Nurse is unique in just how little works against her. Pallets? Blink. Windows? Blink. Walls? Blink. Hold W? Blink. Everything Survivors could normally do against a Killer will barely slow a Nurse down. Similar to why pre-rework Legion was so despised, despite them being absolute garbage.
Again, please point out where I showed disinterest in balancing the game for both sides, so I can correct that. I want the game to be fun for both sides, because if Survivors are satisfied with the way the game plays, then Killer queue times will be shorter. And if Killer is fun to play, then, well, I'll have more fun.
"Did I not present a viable change that works for all levels of play? Spasmodic Breath basekit. Maybe the numbers would need to be adjusted, but it would make Nurse feel a lot more "fair" to play against, even if her power still ignores most of the game's mechanics."
That's what they say.
What you're suggesting is to completely destroy the nurse's gamedesign, in order to bring it in line with the level of the players who are bad against her.
It is doubly selfish. On the one hand you want to please those who are just bad, and on the other hand you offer a solution that would take away all the fun of playing the nurse.
"Because much like Oni or Legion, the fact that half the time, you're just playing against a normal M1 Killer makes it a lot more bearable when they do something crazy that you had no real way to avoid."
Again, you show that you are one of the people who can't play against the nurse.
You're literally asking for her to be an M1 killer at times.
Sorry, but the game doesn't have to be balanced around the lack of skill of people refusing to improve.
Also, just talking about the power of the nurse as, I quote, "something impossible to avoid" shows just how high you are when it comes to confronting the nurse.
So yes, it's not Dan who wants to, but the simple fact that he exists is the proof, if one were needed, that all the arguments that the nurse has no counter-game are just a bunch of meaningless words.
"I want the game to be fun for both sides"
That's the whole problem.
Do not mix balance and fun.
Even if you don't find it fun to play against the nurse; and that, you have every right to do so; it only reflects a preference in terms of personal amusement. It's juste an OPINION, and not a FACT.
It doesn't reflect a balance issue.
The nurse is the strongest killer in the game BUT she is not too strong.
You CAN not to like playing against her.
You CAN not to know how to play against her.
You CAN play with mates who don't know how to play against her.
You CAN be around people who don't know how to play against her.
You CAN be in one or more teams that don't know how to play against it.
But that doesn't mean she's too strong, and/or that the problem is her.
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@AJStyIez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328766#Comment_3328766
Thank you, this is exactly what I just tried to illustrate with my last 2 replies to them. People have all these harsh opinions for Nurse, but ask them to present VIABLE changes that work for ALL levels of play and they stay quiet scratching their head until they eventually ignore the question or move the goalpost
Ask them why their perspective should be validated and they'll tell you "She literally breaks the game". Uhh, we can sit here and point out 1-2 things about almost every Killer on the roster that "bReAk" the game in the form of addons or kits but they conveniently have no issue with that at all. You know why? Because even with those mechanics in place they can still maintain a positive W/L ratio against those Killers regardless of who's playing them
The Nurse hatemongering saga is a microcosm of what we see a lot in real life these days. People do all this preaching/advocating for 'balance' and 'equality' but based off their own words, actions and attitude you can easily tell its not really about either of those two things. A lot of these players that come to Nurse threads to recite the same 1-3 arguments using selfishness and bias under the guise of 'fairness for the majority'. If they truly cared about balance they would seek it and speak on it across all aspects of DBD but a lot of them don't. They don't care if Nurse is actually balanced or not, they just care whether or not they can loop her consistently the way they can with the rest of the roster. No matter how many nerfs she receives and how impactful they are they won't stop complaining until the answer to that question is overwhelmingly yes with minimal effort on their part
I would add the following.
If those people who constantly cry about the so-called "balance" of the game weren't so hypocritical, they would put as much energy into topics asking BUFF for the weakest killers as in those asking to nerf the nurse.
But this is very strange...
When it comes to crying about the nurse, and asking that she be nerfed, every day, there, everyone is there.
On the other hand, when it comes to proposing improvements concerning the weakest killers in the game, where are they, these valiant knights who supposedly defend what they call "equality"?
They don't care about equality.
This word is only a masquerade.
A simple excuse to be able to cry more and more.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328787#Comment_3328787
Plenty of players who are much better than you or me have said that Nurse is busted. Who are you to call tournament-winning players bad?
And so? If someone better than you says something, does that make him a Messiah?
However, it proves that as soon as someone says something that suits you, you are very happy to make an argument out of it.
The problem is that you, on your side, your argument is: "I have heard people say that the nurse is too strong."
That's fine, but that's just an OPINION.
I, on the other hand, say, "Even the best nurses in DbD could be challenged by competent survivors in 6.4."
And that is a FACT.
I would go even longer.
I can prove without worries what I advance, and it is not even me who will do it.
Just watch the tournament videos, or find out a bit about what happens when the best nurses play against the best survivors, or when really good nurses play against really good survivors.
Just look at Supaalf (him, because it was a very intense / interesting YT moment about that) being put in trouble by Hens and his team, while he (Supaalf) was however using the 2 range addons as well as COB / Overcharge / POP / Corrupt, and Hens and his team were playing with limitations of tournament.
These are the elements that support the FACTS.
And on your side ?
Elements to support your OPINIONS?
Videos of you playing against nurses?
Videos of you pulverizing great teams with your nurse?
Something ?
Anything other than words?
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328760#Comment_3328760
Okay? I'm sure my arguments sound quite similar to a lot of other people's arguments, considering how long Nurse has been in the game in her current state. And I'm sure a lot of people, including me, have been demanding her kit be overhauled. I missed the part where that's wrong or a problem.
If you just can't stand to have Nurse receive a different power entirely, fine. Just make it limited-use like Oni's. Oni would be just as rage-inducing, if not more so, if he could use Demon Dash/Demon Strike whenever he wanted. And you'd hardly even have to write any new code; just make Spasmodic Breath basekit.
Again, at what point have I ignored or downplayed the power of a high-level SWF? It's something that Killer mains have been complaining about for years. The solo queue buffs brought solos closer to the level of SWFs, but at some point, we're gonna need another round of Killer buffs to offset the power of a competent Survivor team, especially against mid- to low-tier Killers.
"And I'm sure a lot of people, including me, have been demanding her kit be overhauled. I missed the part where that's wrong or a problem."
I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise.
But the fact that some people complain that the nurse is too strong, and continue to do so now, after the arrival of 6.5, doesn't mean that it's true at all.
It just means that these people are bad in DbD when it comes to dealing with the nurse.
It's as simple as that.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328741#Comment_3328741
If the literal best Killer in the game isn't too strong, then nothing is. What kind of insane logic is that?
Don't talk about "nonsense logic", because that's exactly what you just used.
There will always be one killer stronger than another.
The nurse is the most powerful killer, that's no secret.
But that doesn't mean that she is too strong.
She is the best killer AND she's fine (like she was in 6.4.0). Except for the players who are bad against her, and who prefer to cry rather than question themselves.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328653#Comment_3328653
1) I dunno where you've been, but people have been demanding way more than a slap on the wrist or a "compromise" for Nurse, and they've been doing so for years. Nurse has been through plenty of slaps on the wrist before, and the complaints continued unabated. And why wouldn't they? What made her S-tier or unfun to play against has never been changed.
Nurse could be trash-tier for all the good it would do, honestly. She's just not fun to play against. Much like pre-rework Legion, her power effectively removes all agency from the Survivor playing against her.
2) It really doesn't take a top percentile player to make Nurse oppressive, though. Once you've got the muscle memory down, you're free to terrorize the enemy team and there's not much they can do, aside from stepping up their macro play. Otherwise, Nurse would be a rarity in high MMR.
Yeah, a good Nurse and a good SWF are both oppressive. Especially if that 1-5k-hour SWF brings great items and is going up against a Killer that isn't S-tier. Big surprise, when one side brings out the most broken, unfun tools available and the other side doesn't, the game becomes a frustrating chore for the opposing side.
"Nurse could be trash-tier for all the good it would do, honestly. She's just not fun to play against."
Here we go.
The incessant complaints against the nurse were never intended to highlight any hypothetical imbalance or "over-power".
These complaints are only a reflection of the selfishness of a certain number of players who can't stand the fact that a killer poses a bit more of a problem for them than a silly M1 killer they can loop in Shack.
These same players would simply like DbD to be full of killers that they can loop without worrying, so that they can finish the game congratulating each other, and feeling like they are good.
Except that the problem these players have is that the naughty nurse asks them to be better, which is a problem for some who prefer to wallow in their hypocrisy and laziness.
The nurse doesn't have her range addons anymore.
She doesn't have her recharge addons anymore.
She can no longer one-shot.
She can't use Jolt, K.O., Franklin, etc.
Her back-blink addon has become completely useless.
And you still dare to come and cry about her?
Actually, that's good, because you're just proving that you're just bad.
Hypocritical and bad at the game.
Unable to want to improve, preferring to come crying on the forum, very judiciously evading any questions or remarks that bring these facts to light.
Evade what?
Oh, I don't know, but every time someone asks you to have the COURAGE to show how you play against her, strangely, no one does? Well then? What are you afraid of? Isn't that strange?
"Once you've got the muscle memory down, you're free to terrorize the enemy team and there's not much they can do"
Again, thank you, because it shows that you don't know what you are talking about.
Like many other players, you reduce KNOWING how to play the nurse to UNDERSTANDING how she works.
As I have always said, after a few games, any player will have understood HOW the nurse works.
But to be able to put that into practice against good, even very good teams, that's another matter.
But after all, since you are so sure of yourself, show us ... I would be very curious to see your results against the most monstrous survivors of DbD (or even against very good survivors, because I think that from your words, it would be more than enough to put you in trouble).
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@hiken said:
the second nerf should be being unable to see auras while charging power, that would be also punishing broken aura builds wich btw are indeed broken on nurse.
Or we can also ... learn to play ? Become better?
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328544#Comment_3328544
"Nerfs that the majority of both sides agreed upon". A fine example of what often happens when you try to please everyone with a compromise: You end up pleasing no one.
What is this "You guys" you're using? You think I'm a Survivor main? You haven't seen my threads complaining about Dead Hard or suggesting Killer buffs to discourage tunneling, I take it.
I complain about Nurse because bad game design is bad game design, regardless of whether or not it's on my team. Nurse is a relic of a time when the devs gave practically no consideration at all to balance or counterplay when designing a new mechanic.
And I bring up comp players because the main argument to defend Nurse is that you just need to "git gud" if you don't like playing against her or die to her. Well, comp players have gotten gud in every sense of the term, and you'll find plenty of them echoing the same sentiment as everyone else.
Who cares what era the nurse is from?
We should stop using this argument all the time.
The real question is: is the nurse too strong?
She wasn't in 6.4.
And so she is not in 6.5.
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I see them in every game...
It's redundant...
Ah, but am I stupid, it's because I play her 🤣
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@hiken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327960#Comment_3327960
u just defined DBD and the one killer who ignores it, find the problem and yes is Nurse.
It's the definition of the DbD YOU'd like, with all same M1 killers you could loop classical way.
But sorry, there is another different patern's killer you have to deal with.
Can you ?
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@Kaffry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328472#Comment_3328472
Is there not an addon that allows you to fully charge a blink, and then do another fully charged blink after that?
My bad, it was about Campbell's Last Breath, I thought it was about Jenner's Last Breath.
Indeed, from a purely technical point of view, Campbell can cover 40m, but its accuracy is not optimal.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328474#Comment_3328474
Not the Nurse's fault?
Who completely invalidates every defense the Survivors normally have? Who reduces every chase to 20-30 seconds, regardless of skill level?
Tell me, how is it not the Nurse's fault?
It is not the nurse's fault that she is playing players who are not competent against her.
It's not the nurse's fault if she faces teams that are vocal, but are made up of survivors playing like potatoes.
It's not the nurse's fault that some survivors would rather complain than challenge themselves and train/improve their skills with this killer.
Etc.
If you play alone, or play with mates who are not good, or if you are not goot against her, it is not her fault.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328301#Comment_3328301
Because teams who know what they're doing are good at macro play. They waste little to no time looking for generators, split on them perfectly, know how to avoid 3-gens, get the most out of perks like Deliverance, and always lead the Killer away from their teammates.
Being good at chasing Nurse, however, is not a major factor in their success.
EXACTLY.
And that's what a lot of players have a hard time understanding.
The nurse is the most powerful killer in the game.
And so this feature comes with its corollary.
The Nurse is therefore the killer that requires the most coordination and skill from the opposing team.
If you are playing soloQ, and your mates are not competent against the nurse, in addition to not being organized, you will certainly have a lot of trouble.
But it is not the nurse's fault.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328344#Comment_3328344
The new add-on. You can 40m
His new addon allows him to return to his starting point once his 2 blinks are done, while having 1 blink reloaded.
On the one hand, this does not allow her to snipe for 40m, because the nurse, even with this addon, will never be able to go further than the maximum distance she could go without this addon.
That's why even on the PTB, against a survivor who holds W, this addon was useless.
Be careful not to confuse:
TOTAL distance traveled
and
MAXIMUM distance from the starting point
On the other hand, this addon has become completely useless because, once back at her starting point, she has, in any case, only one blink available. And with only 1 blink, it is very unlikely that she will be able to hit the survivor, unless he plays like a potato.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328277#Comment_3328277
Correct. And against a good Nurse, a player can do just about nothing. Glad we agree.
So this player is not a good player.
And a team which can do just nothing against a good Nurse is not a good team.
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The nurse cannot blink on 40m.
Her first blink has a range of 20m, her second, 12m.
Even with the two old range addons, she could only snipe at 30m.
Regarding knocking out the nurse: this would indeed be frustrating on players who start with the nurse, especially if, for example, a nurse gets knocked out because she made the mistake of arriving on a pallet, at that very moment, she has not yet started to recharge her power; the advantage for the survivors would be non-existent, while the negative side for the killer would be present 😕
And as for knowing when the nurse arrives on the scene, it is still possible; even if sometimes it goes very fast, I agree with you.
But at the same time, it's the principle of its gamedesign.
When I play against a nurse, I tend to pay a lot more attention to the sound environment, and sometimes I drop the generator because I hear her music getting louder, when it's not. I prefer a false alarm, even if it means losing 1 or 2 seconds on my generator, than to be a bit too greedy. It's a choice, of course, everyone has to do as they want 😀
As for auras, there is already Distortion and a boon of the same type, so let's not exaggerate 😊
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@Blinckx said:
"There is nothing I as a killer can do to counter that level of coordination."
Yes there is something you can do, it's called learn how to play
How many hours do you have on your shoulders ? 10, 20, 100 ? You're still in the school playground mate and i have said dozen of time, learn the game, learn from your mistakes, record your gameplay and review them, learn the game with an easy killer then move up with the difficult one. Also, BP are kinda useless once you have unlocked all the perks you need
It's not only you, many suvivors or killer cry for nerf that or that and claim "it's impossible to win" but the truth is you lack skills and there's no shame in that, you just have to pratice more. Some games are more difficult than others, sometimes you'll 4k sometimes you get 4 people out in less than five minutes, SWF are just people like you and me, they are no Gods, they can lose or win, they can do mistakes like you or me.
What is perfect about what you say is that it is not only completely accurate, but that we can replace the term "SWF" with the term "Nurse" without problems.
I think the point is that some players just don't want to admit that in the game there are survivors, or killers, who have raised the level of mastery and involvement to the point that they have become experts.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326925#Comment_3326925
Against a Nurse who knows what they're doing, there's nothing you can do but die in a location that wastes as much of the Nurse's time as possible. This is something that comp players will verbalize.
In theory.
But unlike a nurse who would be controlled by an A.I. and who would effectively make no mistakes, even the best nurses in the game make mistakes. Of course, much less than me, or other main nurses, but they are not exempt.
Otherwise, how to explain that even the best nurses in the game can be put in difficulty by teams who know what they are doing ?
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328172#Comment_3328172
How many tournaments have those other streamers won? Yes, those are just a few of the many "counters" that are still next to useless against a Nurse who knows what she's doing. If it was that easy, she wouldn't be the strongest Killer in the game. And you wouldn't have tournament-level players saying "Yeah, no, basically all you can do is die".
What is important is not what a player can say, but what he can do.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327957#Comment_3327957
And you propose this challenge because...? Seriously, I don't understand what you mean or the point that you want made with that request, as for me since people always complained about her power being unfair because it will bypass every defense that survivors have, I proposed a complete rework due to the nature of her power. Again I'm not considering individual skill and/or personal fun in that case but the killer itself generally speaking: it's not normal having a killer that can IGNORE every kind of defense and counterplay that survivors have (without including perks into the equation)
I totally agree that the nurse is a killer who ignores the "classic" defense mechanics of the game.
But ... how is that a problem ? 😲
Everyone knows that against the nurse, the usual methods are NOT the ones that work, and that you have to play in a different way.
Whether you like the concept or not, that's one thing, but it doesn't change the fact that it's always been like that and honestly, what's the problem?
You can be someone who does NOT like the nurse's gamedesign, but that doesn't make your opinion a universal truth. Many players find it very interesting to play against her, even against good nurses 🙂
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326652#Comment_3326652
There is no rework when her basekit breaks the core game rules, unless you change her power. Remove speed and M1 blink are already the best and only possible change.
"the core game rules"
That's actually what's kind of comical.
You just don't want a killer to come up with anything other than a stupid M1 course, because it requires too much thought ...
I'm sorry if I have to force you to think a little bit more than, "I run, I go through the window, I go around the wall, I run, I go through the window, I go around the wall, I run, I go through the window, I go around the wall ... oh, shoot ... the window is blocked ... oh, there's another window, I run, I go through the window ..." 😁
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@Tostapane said:
she didn't need a nerf, she needed a complete rework...
I propose you a personalized game in 1V1, you as a survivor, me as a nurse.
And I could tell you in a few seconds how good or not you are against the nurse.
Not that I'm a perfect nurse, or that I'm of a level worthy of competition, but I have enough hours with the nurse to very quickly see roughly what level the survivor I'm facing is at.
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@HungrySnek said:
Really thanks for this insane nerf guys. You did a pretty good job. You nerfed the most broken killer that she can't use exposed perks anymore. Now she is reeeeeeaaaaallllyyyy balanced :) Let's just forget the part that she still ignores the game mechanics and that someone who plays her for longer then 30 minutes can still win most games undeserved and that she got New broken addons now :D
"Let's just forget the part that she still ignores the game mechanic"
She ignores CERTAINS mechanics.
But it still has some counterplay.
She could already be in trouble in 6.4.
She can be even more so now, in 6.5.
It's up to you to make sure that you are able to get her into trouble. You and your team.
"that someone who plays her for longer then 30 minutes can still win most games undeserved"
After 30 minutes, the player may be able to win against survivors who are as good as potatoes. Yes, probably, definitely.
But make him play against a team that is at least organized and competent, and come back to me with the results of the game.
"and that she got New broken addons now"
The only broken addon it has isn't even an addon, it's actually the immutable nature of some community members to constantly complain about something that gets them in trouble, without trying to challenge themselves and/or improve.
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@Geiz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327330#Comment_3327330
You're the one talking nonsense here because you do not want to deal with a mechanic that hardly affects Nurse.
They use it because it is a competitive match, not a public match? Are you seriously asking questions like this one? Why do you think some perks and addons are/were banned to Nurse in a competitive match? Why do you think other killers in a competitive match do not deal with perks like DS, DH, etc but Nurse does?
Nurse is a problem to the game's balance, it is just pure facts you just need to accept it. The nerf she received was not even a big nerf to good players that plays her - so why are you crying about it? You think every match is a competitive match? Not even 10% or even 5% of the playerbase is a competitive SWF, just be real.
The nurse is not a problem for the balance of the game. Only for the sanity of the players who don't have the balls to admit that they can't be good enough to play against her or who play SoloQ and are surprised that their team gets opened by a nurse.
The funny thing is that every time I say that even the very good nurses in the game can be challenged by an organized team, strangely enough, all the people who are constantly crying on the forums say nothing.
It's quite representative of the mentality of some people in the DbD community: when it's about coming to cry, then no worries, there are people, but on the other hand, when it's about showing a little bit of wetness and showing his gameplay, just to illustrate his words, no one.
What are people afraid of? To show that they are in fact incompetent and can't stand more than 3 seconds in front of a nurse? Or maybe they're afraid that we'll see that they actually play in teams so incompetent that it's a feast for the killer, every game?
Maybe, but that's the problem of the team, not the killer.
""you do not need perks to win"
You should have said, "The nurse is strong enough to be able to do without perks against SOME survivors, but against others, if she does, she'll get caught off guard very easily."
But I admit that's immediately much less sexy, and not to help the anti-nurse argument.
-
Regarding the matchbox, I would add that the fact that the nurse has only one blink left makes her very easily avoidable, when she blinks at a long distance, since she can't adjust her shot with the second blink.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
Very nice and very constructive. Just a few issues.... /s
1. They buffed 3 blink ages ago. It was just always combined with recharge, which is now gone. Since recharge is nonexistent, the add-on was adjusted so that it's the same as it + recharge before. Nothing really changed.
2. The add-on makes her 110% now, true, but also capped your blinks at 1, meaning you can no longer use the other Iri to have 2 blinks AND faster movement speed.
3. The add-on extends the lunge by 30%. A lunge lasts 0.5 seconds. The Lunge is now 0.65 seconds long. It's just BARELY longer than a T3 Myers lunge. It's an asset but hardly game changing, combined with that fact her lunge speed is still slower than a default lunge.
Thanks.
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@Geiz said:
Nurse was never fine, and will never be. The killer was literally made to counter everything, her basekit is already way too strong to the point you do not need perks to win. Just look at Spirit, she was broken back then, and now she is mostly fine - only some addons from her are overpowered but she has a counter, you have an idea where she is phase walking and how close she is to you during a chase, and yet she deals with everything and the nerf she got did not even kill her.
And let's look at the game as a casual game since it is what it is - not a competitive game. Also, MOST of the competitive matches against Nurse are 4K if they know what they are doing. The only thing that matters in these kind of the matches are how many gens are done.
Stop acting like as if asking for the stun timer increase is such a big deal to a killer like Nurse, you're acting like I am asking to nerf Freddy or Sadako.
"you do not need perks to win"
Why do even the best nurses in the game use perks, then?
Why do the nurses who play in tournaments use perks?
Go practice, instead of talking nonsense.
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The other problem is that they have replaced the rope with a shard of bottle, which may well suggest an act of violence, suicide, or murder.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326882#Comment_3326882
I don't know how you came into realization that nurse players will come crying?
I said that nurse is now much better then before patch. And that there still might be some survivor complaints against her as she is still much stronger then average killer, but that I think she is now at least counterable (so this was a very good change)
I had said: "Given that the developers nerfed this addon by making it almost useless, I wonder what players will now cry about the nurse."
To which you replied, "The Nurse itself."
We have trouble understanding each other 😁
However, it is clear that the nurse has always been, and always will be stronger than the other killers; and that in itself is not a problem. The nurse is the boss of the game in a way 😊
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326622#Comment_3326622
The nurse itself. She will still overperform in skilled hands. But she will be much more manageable now. This was very much needed nerf. She will actually be counterable to some limited degree now. And it's not like she does not have any strong addons now. I presume immediate blink when fully charged + extended lounge will become meta on her. It's just that outplaying nurse will now have at least some more meaning then gaining 4 extra seconds
Why would the players using the nurse come crying ?
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@Geiz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326620#Comment_3326620
You're just trying to prove your point cause you main her, and that's just it. I don't need to show anything to prove the point Nurse is a problem to the game, the only thing she deals with is walls and depending of the map it's not even that much of a problem unless the map is Lerys or RPD at least, and I play well against Nurse, I just think some small adjustments like this one is totally fine, and if you play Nurse, a stun timer increase would definitely not affect you at all so don't try to act smart. I am not even asking to kill her or delete her or make her how bad Freddy is nowadays.
Why are you complaining about a stun timer increase if it won't affect you at all? You're acting as if a stun timer increase will kill her. Are you afraid DS will make you suffer from tunneling someone in the start of the game so you can't 4K so easily? or embarrassed that you can be stunned with a pallet and won't be able to blink right after? Let's start using your "point of view". I won't be able to tunnel so easily? Maybe I should get good playing Nurse.
These adjustments they gave to Nurse is not even a real nerf to Nurse, it's just a way to make her way less broken that she was previously. I will remain with the argument: Blight and Spirit both suffers from DS, Pallet, Head On, windows, any kind of stun and everything and they are both fine (except some addons which are overpowered) so why can't Nurse especially if it's a hard thing to do with her?
I'm not trying to prove anything, because I don't need to.
You may not be able to get good results when you face the nurse, but not everybody does. There are plenty of survivors who have no trouble having fun when they face her.
The nurse is fine as she is now (she was already in 6.4...)
She no longer has any range addons.
She no longer has any recharge addons.
She can no longer One Shot.
Her "tp-back" addon has become useless.
She doesn't need more nerf.