Firellius
Firellius
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612312#Comment_3612312
We're not talking about the old anti-camp.
But we are, the same one that didn't made out of the PTB because survivors abused it to gain an advantage and don't letting the killer sacrifice anyone. This are facts, but here you are denying reality itself again.
My guy, the same system has been suggested multiple times over the course of DBD's entire lifespan. Even leading up to 6.1 it was a common point of discussion and every time it was brought up, people argued against it as if infinites were still in the game.
But thanks for stating the facts about what I am referring to, to me. Not at all presumptuous or anything.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612049#Comment_3612049
And now you're here saying that under the current system, survivors should give up on rescuing a hooked survivor.
Maybe because there is no need of saving him as he can unhook himself? Just saying.
Literally no chase lasts forever, bud. You were the one who said 'ad infinitum'.
They doesn't have to last forever, just enough for the gens to be done or the killer giving up and granting the unhook. And they used builds and strategies for that to happen.
Doesn't change that it's still getting called a survivor exploit in situations where it blatantly benefits the killer.
Says you. Facts says that was the exact reason the old anti camping mechanic didn't got out of the PTB, survivors exploiting the mechanic to gain an advantage. But we know that you don't deal with the reality everybody else live on, so you do you.
Maybe because there is no need of saving him as he can unhook himself? Just saying.
How's he gonna unhook himself if the killer doesn't cooperate though?
They doesn't have to last forever, just enough for the gens to be done or the killer giving up and granting the unhook. And they used builds and strategies for that to happen.
Which it's not going to when you have no space to move in.
Says you. Facts says that was the exact reason the old anti camping mechanic didn't got out of the PTB, survivors exploiting the mechanic to gain an advantage. But we know that you don't deal with the reality everybody else live on, so you do you.
We're not talking about the old anti-camp. I'm talking about the suggestion that got floated every month or so in the interim that always got that remark as well, when nothing of what you said applies. No infinites, and no self-unhook. Just feeding the killer extra kills.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612028#Comment_3612028
Except it doesn't, does it? Because the killer just moves a short distance away and AFC disables. Which brings us back to square one.
Starting to move the goalpost already? I was wondering why the number of fallacies in your post was suspiciously low.
The AFC never was meant to prevent the killer to defend the hook, it was to prevent Facecamping as it's name implies, and as has already become clear it does it function as intended (when you let it do it). This is also the reason of why it deactivates in the end game.
Or until bloodlust kicks in, at which point two survivors will be on the hook right next to each other, putting the survivors into a very dire spot.
That if the survivor doesn't have any endurance like DH (more so in the day), there is no pallets around the hook, there is only one survivor and not two doing it as they did in the day, and a long list of variables that makes your statement wrong.
Anyway, that doesn't change the fact that survivors abused the hell out of that mechanic to gain an advantage (ergo, exploit). That's why it didn't come out of the PTB and nowdays we have the fairer version of it instead.
The AFC never was meant to prevent the killer to defend the hook, it was to prevent Facecamping as it's name implies
Except facecamping was removed years ago with the introduction of swivel hooks, if we want to get finnicky about terminology.
The problem with facecamping, as was outlined in the dev showcase where it was introduced, is that a survivor is kept on the hook with minimal to no chance of being rescued. And now you're here saying that under the current system, survivors should give up on rescuing a hooked survivor.
Ergo, system is a failure.
That if the survivor doesn't have any endurance like DH (more so in the day), there is no pallets around the hook, there is only one survivor and not two doing it as they did in the day, and a long list of variables that makes your statement wrong.
Literally no chase lasts forever, bud. You were the one who said 'ad infinitum'.
Anyway, that doesn't change the fact that survivors abused the hell out of that mechanic to gain an advantage (ergo, exploit). That's why it didn't come out of the PTB and nowdays we have the fairer version of it instead.
Doesn't change that it's still getting called a survivor exploit in situations where it blatantly benefits the killer.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612002#Comment_3612002
No, we have obviously go from "killer is camping, don't go for unhooks and just slam gens" to "killer is camping, don't go for unhooks and just slam gens and let the AFC grant the hooked survivor a free Deliverance".
We both know that you like to cherry pick and twist the argument, but come on.
Except it doesn't, does it? Because the killer just moves a short distance away and AFC disables. Which brings us back to square one.
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612015#Comment_3612015
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612018#Comment_3612018
It was an exploit, because survivors could literally force the killer to either grant the save or stick by the hook wasting time at infinitum, allowing the other 1 or 2 survivors not looping the killer to do gens while survivors literally lose nothing as the hooked survivor would never get sacrificed as long as the killer didn't allowed them to unhook him. That's why it was discarded.
In the new version that got to the game, something similar could be done in the PTB as you can see in the video and thank the Entity that BHVR did something right an changed it so it was not possible anymore.
It was an exploit, because survivors could literally force the killer to either grant the save or stick by the hook wasting time at infinitum
Or until bloodlust kicks in, at which point two survivors will be on the hook right next to each other, putting the survivors into a very dire spot.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3611735#Comment_3611735
Survivors sometimes need protection from themselves. Remember how years ago, survivors would hook bomb their teammates? Wasn´t exactly fun to play survivor, when your teammates farmed you. I´d suppose its to prevent a similar situation.
Honestly, i would be mad at my teammates if they were running the killer around the hook and prevented a rescue.
I would be too, but that makes it all the more baffling that some people describe that as a survivor exploit.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3611983#Comment_3611983
But the game functionally changed, now if a killer is facecamping someone, that someone can unhook himself without his teammates having to invest time in doing a trade or a save as long as there is no one else in a 16m radius.
Of course, if you are going to play like the system doesn't even exist and stay beside the hook without even trying to go for a save and preventing the system to trigger then yeah, nothing has changed. But that's not the mechanic's fault, it's yours.
So, next time you see a killer camping, get the hell out of there and invest your precious time in doing gens, instead of not letting the anti face camping mechanic work as intended.
So we go from 'killer is camping, don't go for unhooks and just slam gens' to 'killer is camping, don't go for unhooks and just slam gens'.
This is what I mean with 'the game has not functionally changed'.
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DS and Ruin. Both got a healthy nerf, and then a dumb nerf stacked on top of it. Just undo the dumb nerf.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3611959#Comment_3611959
So the mechanic doing exactly what it was designed for, allowing the hooked survivor to unhook themselves in case the killer is face camping without his other teammates having to invest generator repair time in doing a save or trade is a failure?
You and your logic, dude. Never change.
If the game functionally doesn't change, yeah, it's a failure. If all the scenarios play out the exact same way they used to with one completely non-functional difference, yeah, it's a failure.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3611863#Comment_3611863
Yes, it does. In fact, in the PTB having the survivor and the killer close to the hook would make the bar fill slower, but fill enough to allow survivors to basically loop the killer at the same time they get a free unhook for the other one. In fact, the moment you were down you won't count to the bar's slowdown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDoo509XVD4&t=70s
That's why they changed it and now at certain distance the bar stop filling with another survivor close, no matter if that other survivor is downed or not (in reality, it start to slow down when another survivor is inside the range, getting slower the closer that other survivor is of the hook, and even slower if there is more than one survivor in range).
In other words, next time you see the killer camping go to do gens to the other side of the map to let the bar fill instead of being around. If they doesn't unhook themselves, then it is simply that they didn't even try to (again, you don't unhook yourself automatically the moment the bar fills up).
As a sidenote: if the 'solution' to this is 'just do gens', then the system has made zero functional difference and is thus a failure.
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@Tsulan said:
You are to close. The meter fills to slow, because you are to close to the hook on the first and third screenshot.
Its to prevent survivors from looping the killer around the hook.
Why would you want to prevent that? That's a huge W for the killer.
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@Leguś said:
Welp, let's get into it.
It's pretty consistent Aura-Block Perk with no real set-up, requirement or risk.
Meanwhile imagine Perks like Residual Manifest, Boon: Shadow Step and Object of Obsession.
One has inherent risk when you are Obsession.
One needs you to Bless a Totem in order to block Auras within 24m range of it with 4s lingering.
One needs you to Blind Killer which depending on situation is easier or harder..... Or impossible with Lightborn but I think the user will notice it quite quickly.
So yeah, maybe Distortion needs that nerf, not because of it being OP but more-so that other Perks could shine because those Perks are fine as they are and shouldn't be really buffed.
Compared to those other perks, yes, Distortion does blow them out of the water.
But that's a problem with those other perks, not Distortion.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3609976#Comment_3609976
The year is 20xx. The last 4 survivor players are choosing between a 105% for 2 seconds sprint burst and a 110% for 1.5 seconds lithe. the 8 required generators take 10 minutes each. toolboxes can reduce this by a maximum of 3 seconds with ideal addons. the killer meta includes a perk that permanently exposes all survivors and shows their auras. somewhere, a killer player is calling the game survivor sided because the survivors finished a whole generator before getting the 4k.
"Killers just physically can't win, do the math!"
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DS from 5 -> 3 seconds.
Dumbest change possible. Anti-tunnel perk with high pick rate because tunnelling is such a threat gets a major nerf slapped onto it, and then suddenly tunnelling is a problem again, who could've predicted it?
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@Tsulan said:
Because totem perks (that includes boons) are trash.
While boon perks still have the benefit of survivors being able to reignite them, hex perks are simply gone. Which is pretty weak for a "high risk, high reward" perk.
No, that's kind of part and parcel of being a high risk perk.
It's the reward that's lacking with most of them. Like Ruin going from 200% to 100% was a total waste of a perfectly good perk. I wager a lot of these hexes could be saved with a few adjustments to either their risk or their output.
Here, let me try it:
Blood Favour - If the hex is cleansed, gain a token whenever you hook a survivor. At two tokens, a random dull totem becomes the new Blood Favour totem.
Crowd Control - Increases vault speed through blocked windows by 100%.
Huntress' Lullaby - First ignited upon getting a hook, so it cannot be cleansed before it comes into effect. Additionally, while it can only gain tokens while the hex is up, if the hex totem is destroyed, the effect persists at whatever number of tokens the killer had acquired beforehand.
Retribution - When another hex is reignited, Retribution is reignited if there's another dull totem available.
Ruin - Back to 200% regression.
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@WaveyTrey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606182#Comment_3606182
Part 2:
Successfully tunneling someone forces other survivors to stop doing gens... They know that the less of them there are to distract a killer the odds of them all escaping declines. Through tunneling survivors aren’t doing gens, and it is not because the survivors decided! The Killer decides that moment they focus on a single player.
The devs cannot fix tunneling because there is nothing wrong with it. When the survivor learns to runs well enough against a killer tunneling will not work at all. The killer wastes all their time!
As killer you have to learn when/who to tunnel.
As survivor you must learn how to deal with tunneling when it happens to you, or someone else!
I played 14 Knight matches last night. 4 matches I didn’t tunnel. I won 2, and lost 2. When I lost survivors bragged a little.
So I decided to gauge, and deduce who was best at running me at the start of a trial. Chase (Tunnel) their weakest runners out the match. Saving their best runners for last.
Guess what? I won 10 matches in a row! Even with all the survivors coordinating, and abusing their perks. 1 match of which the SWF all quit. As I got them all injured and downed in the process of focusing on their weakest runner!
"There's nothing wrong with tunnelling!"
*Proceeds to brag about getting a 100% winrate when tunnelling*
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607482#Comment_3607482
Camping isn't an actual issue. Hooks are an objective and killers are allowed to play defense against unhooks.
It is, though, and the developers are aware of it as well, I think.
IIRC, in the dev update where they initially introduced the AFC, one of the presenters introduced it by talking about how frustrating it is to spend the entire game on the hook. That's a problem with camping, not just face-camping.
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@MikhailVictor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607084#Comment_3607084
I'd rather it go to 150% and not deactivate upon death. It's a very weird deactivation condition for a hex perk. You can cleanse it, goddammit.
It's not that weird. Ruin puts out global pressure automatically, so having a catch for if you try to pair it with tunnelling is pretty healthy.
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"It's anti-FACEcamp"
Then it's still a failure, because we already had that, making the system a waste of resources.
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@leowt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607052#Comment_3607052
Happily. Ruin was over-nerfed.
You're reverting the wrong half of the nerf though. It should go back to 200%. Having it deactivate when a survivor dies is fine, it's a tunnelling disincentive. Its effect is simply too weak at the moment.
Also, no, Deliverance should not deactivate in endgame. It is already very conditional. It's okay for some survivor perks to still work in EGC.
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@CorvusCorax86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606374#Comment_3606374
Thanks for clarifying.
In some instances I cannot teleport to lockers, at all.
They appear different... as if spikes were coming out of them?
Does this mean they are too close?
Dredge's power is disabled in the vicinity of a hooked survivor, I think, in order to dissuade from camping/tunnelling.
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@OrangeBear said:
It's not necessarily toxic. The killer is doing their objective. If survivors want out they can just give up.
They're not doing their objective. They're exploiting a mechanism designed to punish survivors who don't do their objective.
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@bornagain234 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3605581#Comment_3605581
What else are killers supposed to do but kill ? Gen rushing takes the killer out faster. Its fine though.
Drop a guy on the hook and go for someone else. You don't need to tunnel, but survivors do need to do gens.
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3605581#Comment_3605581
I mean there quite literally is tunneling gens by leaving people to die and ONLY doing gens. Since tunneling comes from "tunnel vision" which that fits EXACTLY with slamming gens.
That's hardly the killer's problem though, is it? If they never go for unhooks, you are going to have a VERY easy game.
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@bornagain234 said:
Survivors complain when they get tunnelled. They have no issues tunnelling gens though.
I see survivors always complaining about tunnelling but have absolutely no issues with just slamming the gens out and leaving.
There's no such thing as 'tunnelling gens'. Stop misusing terminology for false equivalence.
And what else are survivors supposed to do but gens?
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@leviivel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3604437#Comment_3604437
it isn’t broken but it’s kind of an unhealthy/controversial perk. It just makes weaker aura read perks even weaker but the actually good aura read perks kinda just chomp through it (Nowhere to hide is the biggest example, UW also doesn’t work with distortion).
This suggestion doesn't fix that, though. You'd need something that specifically targets the distinction between the weak and strong ones.
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Fix? In what way is it broken?
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3604008#Comment_3604008
So what is your solution for these teams? Obviously we can't balance game around them.
You can try to balance the game against them.
What are things that make these swiffer teams so much stronger than others? Not everything can be tackled, but there may be some aspect that can be trimmed.
One thing I've noticed as a somewhat consistent factor in bully squads is 1v2+ chases, where multiple survivors will orbit the chase with the intention to deny hooks. If you give the killer full immunity to hook denial for X seconds or until they get a hook, after they have been hook denied, that'd trim specifically swiffers without doing much for the solos that aren't likely to coordinate those kinds of plays to begin with.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3603703#Comment_3603703
Watch a comp match sometime.
Oh, do killers not tunnel there? I was always told that tunnelling is the only way killers can win.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3603434#Comment_3603434
If killers throw themselves at once specific survivor, that makes your job as survivor much easier "just do gens" as it were.
Except it doesn't, does it?
Otherwise killers wouldn't be doing it.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602448#Comment_3602448
But generators being done ends the game quickly and ruins the killers chance to play the game before it is even finished. Have you never gone against a SWF bully squad and get 1 hook and have all gens done in 4 minutes while they teabag the gates as they leave because they predropped 8000 god pallets and sent you to garden of joy?
You still got the full killer experience in that though, you just got less of it. You still get to chase and pressure gens. That doesn't go for survivors, who end up doing only a portion of their gameplay.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602458#Comment_3602458
Again, we are just pointing out the hypocrisy here. Nobody is suggesting that killers "think gens being done is a problem" we are simply pointing out that killers get yelled at for tunneling, but nobody cares when survivors do it. The double standard is real.
Similarly people complain when killers bring Corrupt/Pop/Painres/BBQ on blight with god-tier addons, but when survivors bring, Adren/Resilience/Sprint Burst/Commodius/BNP/Insta heal/Sending you to garden of joy. That is totally fine though.
I'm simply pointing out double standards here because they tend to get ignored on these forums.
"Again, we are just pointing out the hypocrisy here. Nobody is suggesting that killers "think gens being done is a problem" we are simply pointing out that killers get yelled at for tunneling, but nobody cares when survivors do it. The double standard is real."
It's not a double standard at all, you are messing up the lingo.
Survivors doing gens is not "tunnelling" gens. Tunnelling is focusing on one of the targets. If the survivors are all throwing themselves at one specific generator, that makes your job as killer easier. It's virtually impossible to clear a gen that's being camped, as illustrated by Chess Merchant.
You are intentionally misappropriating the term 'tunnelling' to draw up a false equivalence, and then you get mad about it.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602235#Comment_3602235
So then in my scenario i mentioned. Would that be tunneling by the killer to go after the guy? Be honest with me. If the killer hooks someone, then hooks that same person again, is that tunneling? Or do you mean "just getting hooks"?
No, hooking him is not a problem. That's why the conspic action condition exists.
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@Reinami said:
I see threads on here all the time about how much people hate it when killers tunnel, but nobody ever talks about it when survivors do it. Why? Survivors can hard tunnel gens just as much as killers can tunnel survivors. For example.
- Rushing a nearby gen right as the killer picks up a survivor
- Refusing to heal each other or themselves in order to gens
- Completely ignoring totems (and ironically then complaining about NOED at the end)
- Completely ignoring chests
- Not body blocking
- Leaving teammates on the hook to work on gens
These are just a few examples, but in general survivors can "tunnel" their objective just as much as killers can, yet nobody says anything about it.
Tunnelling gens makes survivors lose. They can't work on a gen if you just stay on it.
Or did you mean 'doing gens'?
Also
- Rushing a nearby gen right as the killer picks up a survivor
Tactical play when killers often bring heavy regression.
- Refusing to heal each other or themselves in order to gens
Healing got nerfed because killers didn't like it.
- Completely ignoring totems (and ironically then complaining about NOED at the end)
Boons were deleted, and NOED isn't countered by doing totems.
- Completely ignoring chests
Most items are not worth using, and the ones that are will never recover the time lost on opening the chest.
- Not body blocking
Is that a bad thing?
- Leaving teammates on the hook to work on gens
Killer might be camping, and a survivor on the hook can't be tunnelled.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601140#Comment_3601140
Yes, but the character is specifically what made the strategy problematic.
Now that the character is gone, there is no reason to mess with the strategy as it isn't problematic anymore.
No, others started copying it as well.
Not to mention that zoning killers are, as a concept, off the table so long as 3-genning like that is still available.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600116#Comment_3600116
But the merchant is dead. No reason to ruin a valid strategy for most killers because of one character.
The character's dead, but the strategy isn't.
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@sonata93 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600841#Comment_3600841
I see where you’re coming from, but is that not that the whole premise of “anti-tunnel”? Is it not better for the unhooker to be chased instead of the person who’s just been unhooked? Camping is a separate issue in itself, but at least in the example you said, doing that multiple survivors are targeted/hooked instead of just one.
Isn’t all this just hyperbole, anyway? At the end of the day, no amount of perks/base kit mechanics can stop tunnelling/camping. Deter and punish killers who do? Yes, but if a killer is that hell bent on getting someone out the game, they will do so by any means necessary.
Is it not better for the unhooker to be chased
Yes, if it actually comes to a chase. Which is an adjacent issue.
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@okaayletsgoo said:
I'm either tunneled at 4-5 gens, proxy camped or slugged and left to bleed out in about 90% of my games.
Survivor just hasn't been fun at all for awhile and I find myself on killer most of the time now and it's got nothing to do with dying and losing it's about how.
The only other thing to do when that happens is sit on gens but gens are so freaking boring and it's been almost 8 years with no changes to the gen game play. We NEED a bit change so it's not such a boring game on both ends.
Maybe we have to find the generators parts through various parts chests around the map and install them only being able to carry one at a time and it takes up your item slot until you drop or install it like flashbang or nemi syringe.
Idk something needs to change it's so boring. Killer is way more fun (when you aren't obliterated by swf p100 that is)
Doing gens is fine as a bit of a cool-down from a chase. If you spend 30+ seconds in chase, get put on hook, pulled off hook, healed, and then you go on a gen for a bit while someone else takes the heat, that gives dynamic tension to the game. It gives breathing room.
Of course, that all goes out the window if you're in chase, and back in chase the second you're off hook, until you're dead. Or if you're on hook for several minutes while the killer stares at you. Or you're slugged out.
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@H2H said:
I think there’s a good chance the current effect becomes basekit (which would be an absolutely terrible idea) and the perk will do something dumb like remove the conspicuous actions limit.
Current as basekit, perk gives it +2 seconds of stun and +10/20/30 seconds of active duration.
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@sonata93 said:
I think the best course of action would be to revert it back to the 5-second stun duration active for 80 seconds. However, the condition is that you must be the most recently hooked survivor, therefore if someone else is hooked and your timer is still active, it automatically deactivates. That way, only killers who are actually tunnelling are punished, and it can’t be weaponised and used to waste fair-play killers’ time. Of course, the usual conspicuous action and end game deactivation rules would apply, too.
I wouldn't even go for that, to be honest. STBFL to knock the unhooker, then slap them on the hook they just pulled the tunnel victim off of. It kinda makes carping counter the anti-tunnel.
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@moulesfrites said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600132#Comment_3600132
This perk deserves a nerf then.
Survivor perk: *Does literally anything that helps a survivor*
Forum killer: "Need nerf"
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@appleas said:
Too much punishments or restrictions on one role with minimal incentives and people will stop playing the role.
People seem to believe that the Killers who rely on “lazy playstyles” will buck up and actually start learning to play good once these playstyles are snuffed out.
But what’s stopping them from just quitting the role entirely? We definitely don’t have an excess of Killer players, otherwise the BP incentives would be on Survivor permanently but this is not the case.
Soo what’s BHVR going to do when Survivor queue times become long again in the near future?
They didn't quit back when the survivor meta was stacking counter-perks for exactly these playstyles, why would they quit now?
I don't understand why people are fighting tooth and nail to keep protecting these strategies.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597323#Comment_3597323
The problem here is that 3 gen isn't an exploit or a broken mechanic that was left unchanged, it is a valid strategy.
"Carrots" and "sticks" don't really matter because the situation doesn't have to change.
Not all 3-gen is exploitative, but ol' chess merchant running out the clock and getting rewarded for it was exploiting the fact that devs didn't think a match could go 60 minutes without the problem being the survivors. Perma-locking a 3-gen from the start of the match and refusing to chase IS exploitative.
@Volkfang said:
"No, this discussion is pretty old and has been on these forums several times over. You've really only brought more verbiage to the same old point: "Just buff killers more and we'll totally tunnel a bit less, perhaps"."
Well I can see your not open to a differing view on the subject, and since you've stooped to strawmanning in what was otherwise I thought a productive back and forth I see little reason to continue this discussion. Your point of view definitely comes across as heavily sided to one side of the player base and I fear that that mono directional view will be the downfall of this game.
Well I can see your not open to a differing view on the subject
Are you?
and since you've stooped to strawmanning
It's not strawmanning. That's the discussion that's been had on these forums many times over and that yours touches on as well.
Your point of view definitely comes across as heavily sided to one side of the player base and I fear that that mono directional view will be the downfall of this game.
You've not levelled a practical argument against it once, though. You've only tried to reframe the discussion away from DBD and into some hypothetical space where you could theoretically be right.
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@Volkfang said:
"Neither of these are applicable analogies though, as the problem I have with your argument is specifically in the one thing looter shooters and MMOs don't have to deal with. DBD is PvP, the game styles you mentioned, are not."
It wasn't meant to be a 1 for 1 comparison. The purpose of that comparison was to illustrate the presence and success of carrot style game design across games as a whole.
"Even in the cases you mention of PvP games, the carrots you mention are also already in the game. They won't do anything to incentivise non-tunnelling strategies. In fact, they do quite the opposite. They reward tunnellers more than they reward non-tunnellers."
Yes, the carrots are in the game and they work. That was my point. Incentive based game design is as fundamental to games as is rigging 3D models and backend code. Also, I don't understand what CoD and CS have to do with tunneling. But this highlights the whole reason I referenced games outside of DBD, people get caught up on one specific example and lose sight of the broader point being made.
"Unfortunately, you are, implicitly. What you are suggesting isn't feasible without raising the issue I bring up. Whatever method to achieve a win you want to implement or boost to compete with tunnelling will have to be more effective, and lower effort."
The difference again here is your focusing in on one specific instance. My thought process is more wholistic, if implementing a carrot/stick game mechanic were to result in a buff to killers than they would be nerfed to be brought in line elsewhere and vice versa. This is almost implied in the term "game balancing"
"I appreciate that, but at that point you are diverging from any practical application of your feedback. BHVR can't do anything with feedback that only works within a purely hypothetical setting. I'm not trying to sound dismissive here, but game design is only useful insofar that it can be applied."
The thought process behind actions can be equally if not more important than the actions themselves. The forums and reddit is already full of "practical" suggestions of Nerf this or Buff that. And the devs have pretty well demonstrated that they nerf and buff based very heavily off of what %s and #s they're seeing. I'm sure they take community feedback into account too, but It seems like it has to reach a critical mass kind of level of outcry to be the main motivator for the change. See the Blight addons as an example.
What I don't see alot of feedback on is next level order of thinking. Providing feedback on vision and philosophy for the game can be just as useful tools because it can make you pause and look at problems from different angles opening new solutions that wouldn't have been seen before.
It can be easy to get stuck in a cycle of playing whack a mole with problems and tempting to just solve solutions with a hammer (or nerf bat) . In my opinion the truly great games are the ones that find creative and elegant solutions to problems, using them as opportunities to enhance all of the players experience.
It wasn't meant to be a 1 for 1 comparison. The purpose of that comparison was to illustrate the presence and success of carrot style game design across games as a whole.
That's not my point though.
Yes, the carrots are in the game and they work. That was my point. Incentive based game design is as fundamental to games as is rigging 3D models and backend code. Also, I don't understand what CoD and CS have to do with tunneling. But this highlights the whole reason I referenced games outside of DBD, people get caught up on one specific example and lose sight of the broader point being made.
I mean the carrots you are referring to in this example are already in DBD, and they currently incentivise tunnelling.
The difference again here is your focusing in on one specific instance. My thought process is more wholistic, if implementing a carrot/stick game mechanic were to result in a buff to killers than they would be nerfed to be brought in line elsewhere and vice versa. This is almost implied in the term "game balancing"
Right, but this ultimately comes down to what I'm saying: You can't fix this problem without applying the stick. 'They would be nerfed elsewhere' is the point. Since you still have to adhere to game balancing, the carrot approach creates a shift in balance that ultimately does little more than, effectively, nerf tunnelling.
Imagine you have two weapons that each have a DPS of 1, and an enemy that has 100 HP. Each of these weapons would have the same TTK, that being 100 seconds. Then the devs decide that they want to lure players away from using weapon option #2. So they use the carrot approach and buff #1 and #3 to have a DPS of 2.
But now the enemy goes down in 50 seconds, which is too fast, so they buff the enemy to 200 HP.
So now #1 and #3 are back to a TTK of 100 seconds, while #2 is at a TTK of 200 seconds.
This is functionally no different from changing #2 to a DPS of 0.5. It is ultimately still a nerf. It's still the stick, not a carrot. And you might say 'but it might feel different', but trust me, DBD players will absolutely notice.
The thought process behind actions can be equally if not more important than the actions themselves.
Right, but only insofar as this factors back into a practical solution. You need to be able to apply this thought process in order to benefit from it.
What I don't see alot of feedback on is next level order of thinking.
No, this discussion is pretty old and has been on these forums several times over. You've really only brought more verbiage to the same old point: "Just buff killers more and we'll totally tunnel a bit less, perhaps".
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I like that it can be reinstated after being cleansed though. More perks should get that.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/375066/why-survivor-issues-are-ignoring-by-devs
Ähhhh.....
Anti face camp, survivor soloq hud, bt basekit...
Pls dont post us VS them stuff. Survivor got a lot of quality of life in the last year.
@SleepyLunatic said:
Idk what it is but sometimes you have some w takes and even post wholesome stuff and then out of nowhere its such a us ve them post again..
This thread was necro'd from over half a year go.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599041#Comment_3599041
that is entire problem with killer. the killer loses by not tunneling because there is not enough time to go for hooks. It is not question of not being able to trigger it. it is question of time. tunneling is most efficient way to slow the game down for killer. The killer is forced to activate DS because there is no other viable method of winning. The killer does not have enough map pressure in 4vs1 for their downs to be relevant game delay. The only way they get map pressure is killing one survivor off. DS is still strong perk because of that. It is only perk that survivor can effectively stack a 2nd exhaustion perk on top of regular exhaustion perk. I still use DS semi-regularly on survivor.
SWF are not using DS because FTP+Buckle is superior and Background player with flashlights/flashbang. SWF still use DS. they're just using more team-oriented decisive strikes that are much more spammable.
That's a very sweeping assertion on the game's balance to be making, and I don't know if it matches reality. I never tunnel, and I won a fair share of my matches.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598865#Comment_3598865
DS is still strong perk vs 70% of the killer cast. The main difference is that decisive strike takes skill to use. you have to be good at looping m1 killers to profit from time-waste of DS. I don't think it is wise to buff DS. all that increasing stun time will do is extra-punish weak m1 killers that have poor catch-up post-stun.
killer would need like old dying+pre-nerf ruin for all extra wasted time from chases. the meta of stacking second chances and stacking game-delay for killer is not healthy one. there needs to be less second chances and the game-progression speed for killer need to be normalized in some shape or form when the killer is successful at downing survivors quickly at base-kit.
Or, alternatively, you as killer could choose -not- to activate DS.
As for the topic overall: 6.1 was well-intentioned and there were some good things in there, but Ruin going from 200 to 100% was definitely a terrible change, and DS going from 5 to 3 seconds was the literal worst change in DBD history.
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@Volkfang said:
@Firellius I think we're talking past each other, so let me try and restate what I think our positions are.
My position in one sentence: Positive Reinforcement/Carrot/Reward (whatever you want to call it) design is an integral part of good game design and I'm concerned the devs are losing sight of that.
To support my claim I'll give examples outside of DBD, look at looter shooters and MMOs. Players tackle hard and challenging content to receive rewards, like raiding in WoW or Destiny 2. That's carrot incentive. In competitive games like CoD or CS, players are rewarded with the victory screen at the end usually accompanied with other rewards like XP, skins, ladder ranking etc. all of those rewards are incentives. Heck, everything even down to shiny particle effects and victory music are designed to give you that positive feedback/carrot effect. Of course for competitive players the biggest carrot is outside the game, just the satisfaction that comes from winning based on your mastery of the game. (However, outside factors are less important in this discussion because game design can't control all player desire. So discussing what to do about the small % of mememr's, cheaters, malicious players, RPers, etc. doesn't really factor.) In short, "Carrots" are just a fact of game design.
What I believe to be your position: Carrots don't work because In order to provide a big enough incentive to counter the best player strategies that players work out themselves you would have to give massive buffs breaking the game.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that when you say carrots don't work your referring to specific application of carrots such as camping and tunneling. Because as I already stated carrots already exist in every game and can be some of the best parts of gaming.
My counter to what I believe your position to be, 1st your assuming that I'm calling for a massive buff to killers, which I'm not. I believe you're underestimating how much you can alter player behavior by offering alternatives. The reason I brought up Devour Hope was to illustrate this. I'm not talking about it as the be all end all solution to tunneling, but killers who run it definitely alter their play style to gain it's benefit. So expound on that philosophy. And you don't have to make killers super overpowered in the process, just make the alternative at the same level of effectiveness as the tunneling strat. Note I'm not offering an example of how to do this for a couple reasons. Mainly I want to stay on the topic of game design philosophy. Instead of getting bogged down into why this or that idea doesn't work for tunneling, camping, 3 gen etc.
Finally, I wanted to address the fact that you brought up the statistics. I know they're all we have to go on, but they're awful. I wouldn't base any arguments based off the kill rate statistics BHVR provides. Otherwise Nurse will be getting giga buffed every patch until the heat death of the universe. Also it'd be incredibly easy for BHVR to manipulate them. They've said they want killers to have a kill rate of 60% (which imo kills shouldn't be the objective here, but thats another discussion) to achieve that all you have to do is turn the knob on gen timers and/or killer interaction times. All killers in the 60 million player community getting to many kills? turn the knob lowering them xS/0.xS Killers not getting enough? turn the knob the other way. What does that actually do for game balance and how the game feels? zip.
To support my claim I'll give examples outside of DBD, look at looter shooters and MMOs
Neither of these are applicable analogies though, as the problem I have with your argument is specifically in the one thing looter shooters and MMOs don't have to deal with. DBD is PvP, the game styles you mentioned, are not.
Even in the cases you mention of PvP games, the carrots you mention are also already in the game. They won't do anything to incentivise non-tunnelling strategies. In fact, they do quite the opposite. They reward tunnellers more than they reward non-tunnellers.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that when you say carrots don't work your referring to specific application of carrots such as camping and tunneling. Because as I already stated carrots already exist in every game and can be some of the best parts of gaming.
Yes, but I had hoped that that would be obvious from my argumentation.
My counter to what I believe your position to be, 1st your assuming that I'm calling for a massive buff to killers, which I'm not.
Unfortunately, you are, implicitly. What you are suggesting isn't feasible without raising the issue I bring up. Whatever method to achieve a win you want to implement or boost to compete with tunnelling will have to be more effective, and lower effort.
just make the alternative at the same level of effectiveness as the tunneling strat.
But that wouldn't be an incentive. An alternative existing is not, in and of itself, an incentive.
Mainly I want to stay on the topic of game design philosophy.
I appreciate that, but at that point you are diverging from any practical application of your feedback. BHVR can't do anything with feedback that only works within a purely hypothetical setting. I'm not trying to sound dismissive here, but game design is only useful insofar that it can be applied. And it is in that application that I find issue with the suggestion of trying to use the carrot to lure killers away from tunnelling.
My point is that, even though the design concept of carrots is fine, I don't see there being any possibility of creating an alternative to tunnelling that can fulfil the carrot function you are looking for, without devising something that is, de facto, stronger than tunnelling.
I think it'd be much, much easier and much more efficient to implement targeted nerfs to tunnelling (And BHVR already has a solution available for that), and if need be, buff killers to keep the balance level.
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@pale_hispanic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598884#Comment_3598884
I have to ask how long have you been playing the game? This perk combo was the meta for years. It was neither a waste of perks or survivor time. It could take as little as only 30 seconds to get in front of the killer, get downed, and pick yourself up again. Meanwhile the unhooker has time to reach a pallet unscathed and your two teamates have free time to do gens. And again, you still have the value of anti-tunneling and anti-slugging.
Again, you are being pedantic. This wouldn’t have been meta for literal years if it was useless and a waste of time. If DS gets buffed back to 5 seconds, then this combo should be addressed. Keep the perk as purely anti-tunneling, not a weapon.
I have to ask how long have you been playing the game?
I started shortly after 4.6.
This perk combo was the meta for years
Yes, it was. Because tunnelling was a problem, so survivors brought DS to combat it. Slugging was also a problem, and it was a way to counterplay the anti-tunnel value of DS, so UB was brought in to counter it.
It could take as little as only 30 seconds to get in front of the killer, get downed, and pick yourself up again.
But that still takes two perks, a hookstate, and, evidently, almost half of a gen, and the reward from it varies wildly and is nowhere near guaranteed. You'd need to be able to secure significantly more time to offset how far you're putting your team back, and the risk you place them in.
And again, you still have the value of anti-tunneling and anti-slugging.
No, you don't. UB is a single-use perk, so you'd be dropping that, which also means that your DS is, from that point on, largely pointless since the killer can retain pressure in spite of it by leaving you perma-slugged.
Again, you are being pedantic.
I'm not being pedantic. I'm not splitting hairs anywhere, I'm talking about this strategy being ineffective and unpopular! It's revisionist history to claim that offensive use of DS was rampant or a major problem. It wasn't. Post 4.6, there were two major complaints about DS: The lose-lose scenario of an EGC rescue, and DS's interference with tunnelling. One was dealt with, the other was rightly dismissed.
These complaints about DS being used offensively haven't risen up until -after- 6.1, and exclusively in a bid to keep DS from going back to a 5 second stun.
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@pale_hispanic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598415#Comment_3598415
I’m not in the camp of people that want DS gutted but you’re being pedantic here. DS was 100% weaponized especially if it was combined with Unbreakable. This combo was incredibly common (more so than I think any other survivor perk combo) and basically gave survivors a free heath state to abuse. There was legitimately nothing the killer could do.
Chase the unhooker? The DS user bodyblocks, makes the killer lose distance, then picks quickly picks themselves up with no problem.
Pick up the survivor and eat the DS? Killer loses distance.
If all survivors ran this then the killer would have to deal with this for a minimum of 4 times. All this while still having the powerful anti-tunneling and anti-slugging.
That's two perks being dumped, on top of a hookstate, on top of the time wasted for the DS user to insert themselves into the chase, and on top of the recovery time, and this still threatens you somehow?
This is such a massive waste of time (and perks) for the survivors so long as you don't pick up the DS user.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598559#Comment_3598559
But you're not denying a down. You're giving one in exchange for another.
You are "giving" a down which cannot be picked up and potentially can pick themselves up. Its kinda of changing 1 to -1, because ir a normal chase you can at least do something.
But you're not denying a down. You're giving one in exchange for another.
A down which you cannot capitalize, instead of a down you could capitalize hooking the survivor, sacrificing him or making it closer to sacrifice.
No one mentioned Buckle Up.
Sorry, i've read quickly, since i've never seen someone saying that FTP itself give a health state. This is something people say about the FTP + Buckle Up combo
That's only as much distance as the weapon wipe timer, because they don't get the on-hit sprint. This is slightly longer than a single whiff.
Its much more distance than a whiff. It can be the diferrence between a survivor reaching a safe loop or taking a hit.
A down which you cannot capitalize
You can capitalize on a down without picking a survivor up.
That's the point.
Its much more distance than a whiff. It can be the diferrence between a survivor reaching a safe loop or taking a hit.
That also applies to a whiff though!
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598514#Comment_3598514
I'm not intending to be an arbiter wheter or not a perk should have value, but the whole discussion about Decisive in this topic is about buffing or not because its AN ANTI-TUNNEL PERK. I don't see any other reason to buff Decisive if its not for making tunneling worse for killer. If the intent for the perk its for so many usages (bodyblock, anti-tunnel, aggro) i think the perk is fine: you just use the basekit BT to run towards a strong structure, use Decisive and then the chase restart.
Sorry, but its not throwing: a down in a match can be the difference between get multiple kills or multiple escapes. Now, if someone blocks you from getting a down, denying you even the possibilty of getting another hook (because the will stun you, get a health state and the run) its a massive downside for the killer. You need to remember that if someone with DS bodyblocks the killer, the other person will run away as far as they can, getting so much distance that you will need to start over the chase again.
In that regard, i will say it again: there should be measures to prevent Decisive weaponizing against non-tunneling killers. If there is not, i don't think Decisive need to be buffed by any measure.
Edit: about the FTP + Buckle Up combo, it DOES CREATE a Health state. A 10s temporary one, which can give the survivor 40 meters to run. So you wait until the 10s health state is gone, or you just eat it and let the chase begin again.
I'm not intending to be an arbiter wheter or not a perk should have value, but the whole discussion about Decisive in this topic is about buffing or not because its AN ANTI-TUNNEL PERK.
Nope, that is a restriction that you are adding to it. This discussion is about DS in general.
Sorry, but its not throwing: a down in a match can be the difference between get multiple kills or multiple escapes.
But you're not denying a down. You're giving one in exchange for another.
Now, if someone blocks you from getting a down, denying you even the possibilty of getting another hook (because the will stun you, get a health state and the run)
They won't get a stun or a health state at all. DS doesn't activate upon going down.
ou need to remember that if someone with DS bodyblocks the killer, the other person will run away as far as they can, getting so much distance that you will need to start over the chase again.
That's only as much distance as the weapon wipe timer, because they don't get the on-hit sprint. This is slightly longer than a single whiff.
that regard, i will say it again: there should be measures to prevent Decisive weaponizing against non-tunneling killers.
There is one. It's the fact that you need to go down in order to use it.
Edit: about the FTP + Buckle Up combo, it DOES CREATE a Health state. A 10s temporary one, which can give the survivor 40 meters to run. So you wait until the 10s health state is gone, or you just eat it and let the chase begin again
No one mentioned Buckle Up.