Firellius
Firellius
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598415#Comment_3598415
The problem is not getting value for a perk. The problem is getting value from a perk when it should not give you value. Decisive is obviously made to punish tunneling killers, who wants to HOOK the same survivor twice in under a minute. But since the perk can be abusable in so many ways, it gets value not just against tunneling, but against the normal stuff that happens in a game, like going after someone in a chase.
Edit: also, you forget that denying the killer a potential hit or even a down can turn the tide of the game, specially since the killer can fall to the DS + Unbrekable lose-lose situation.
Its hard to get an example from killer perks - surv and killer perks are quite different - but imagine if perk like Deadlock could be used to bodyblock a survivor to get a hit. It was designed for that, but could be abused to, granting "for free" two strong effects.
I think most of the people here - i hope so - are not against good perks for survivors (i also play survivor too). The problem is using a perk which has a VERY STRONG EFFECT to a situation it wasn't designided for and still getting great value for it.
The problem is getting value from a perk when it should not give you value.
But you're not the arbiter of when a perk should or should not give value. Nowhere in DS's description does it outright say 'this is only for when the killer tunnels you'.
also, you forget that denying the killer a potential hit or even a down can turn the tide of the game, specially since the killer can fall to the DS + Unbrekable lose-lose situation.
But you're not denying a hit. This is like complaining about FTP giving an instant health state. It doesn't create health from nothing, much like DS doesn't blank out a hit like OTR does.
I think most of the people here - i hope so - are not against good perks for survivors (i also play survivor too). The problem is using a perk which has a VERY STRONG EFFECT to a situation it wasn't designided for and still getting great value for it.
But you're not taking that strong effect into a situation it wasn't designed for unless the killer makes the mistake of picking you up. If they don't, you wasted time running from hook into chase, waiting for the opportune moment, taking a hit, going down, and then you have to spend your time recovering or getting healed by another survivor, costing them their time too.
That is not a strong effect. That is a No Mither tier effect.
It's not abusing a perk, it's soft-throwing.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598418#Comment_3598418
So you want those dark times to come back? Because 2,5 years passed?
How bout we also bring back infinites and exhaustion cd that reset during running?
Just because some years passed, doesn´t mean that we should bring back terrible things we had in the past.
EDIT: only a few months ago, we had the flashlight exploit. Our community happily jumped the occasion to make playing killer as unpleasant as possible. The devs kill switched it and tons of people complained that they suddenly couldn´t bully killers anymore.
I don´t really think bringing the old, weaponized, 2.5 year old back. Will be healthy for the game. I hope the devs don´t go that road and instead give us a completely changed perk. That can´t be weaponized but still is a viable option against tunneling (just turning the timer back to 5 seconds would do so much in that regard). But we´re talking about BHVR. So everything is possible.
Literally no one is asking for pre-4.6 DS back though. Literally no one.
But you lot are all up in arms over a perk that is virtually impossible to use offensively because it might, might, under very rare and specific circumstances, with a lot of effort and coordination, be useful to a survivor sometimes.
Whatever trauma you have from pre-4.6 DS is no reason to hinder the game 2.5 years down the line.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598415#Comment_3598415
We just come from a place where DS was a weaponized perk for years. I don´t know about you, but i don´t like weaponized perks.
That's 2.5 years ago, bud.
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Since folks here don't seem to be willing to look at the entire scenario and consider the extra time wasted, the difficulty of pulling it off, the low likelihood of it being useful and the fact that it needs additional perks to support it, I want folks to also take a deep breath, and say the following to themselves:
"It is okay for a survivor perk to sometimes benefit the survivors"
Because y'all are hardcore arguing that the perk should do literally nothing.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597565#Comment_3597565
You are full health. Not broken
Does broken not return when you get injured? I'm pretty sure you can't be healthy and broken, which is why No Mither starts you off injured.
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@SimpleSage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597397#Comment_3597397
Looking at gen kicks is the exact same Idea I had after watching Coconut's recent video, and I thought back to some of my own matches against killers trying to hold a 3 gen from the start. It's absolutely right, Killers camping a 3 gen kick those gens no matter how little progress, even choosing to kick the gen over chasing the survivor they caught doing it. If the prompt is there they kick it.
Since the goal of this is to specifically address killers playing for a 3-gen from the start I figured a system that looks at different actions iv various context -
- How many times the killer kicked a specific gen in a set period of time. ( Is it obsessive for a Killer to kick a singular gen 2 times in 30s? How about 7 times in 60s?)
- Survivor progress vs. killer caused regression in a set period of time. (Has the killer regression reduced survivor progress because the survivor abandoned the gen to regress naturally after being kicked once? Was regression caused by a perk with strict activation requirements like Pain Res or Pop? Was regression caused after the gen was kicked with overcharge 3 times in the last 45s and resulted in 2 missed skill checks?)
- How many survivors are in proximity to the gen and how long compared to the killers time in proximity. ( Did the killer spend 97s within 16m of a gen because 3 survivors were also with 16m of said gen with varying but overlapping times? Did the killer spend 97/120s near a gen with 1 survivor who was only within the area for 15s?)
This could yield a reliable system if executed properly.
But then the next issue is, if the game detects 3-genning, what happens? I've seen a lot of suggestions saying to just cause the gens to trade places with the farthest completed one, which would work, if it wasn't common for gens to spawn on top of each other in the first place. To make this a workable solution they would need to rebuild spawn logic for maps from the ground up (This is the correct way to fix this issue completely, enforce a minimum spawn distance between gens, and might as well address hook, totem, clutter and tile spawns at the same time because maps have way to much rng potential that can absolutely dictate the match results). However I don't think this is what they're doing based solely on the fact that they said the system will DETECT 3-genning which, to me, implies the possibility is still there and this is just a deterrent to the killer.
As for buffing the survivors repair speed on those gens, would that be enough? It doesn't stop the killer from camping the gens, does it really help if survivors can't sit on a gen long enough to out repair the regression. I thought about making a gen immune to killer regression for some time as well but that also doesn't help if you can't sit on the gen. I'm really curious to see what the solution is.
Just spitballing here, but what if regression from kicking a specific gen reduced at certain kick counts, where each kick is multiplied by the amount of gens left to be done?
That way, if the killer is trying to hold a specific 3-gen from the start and survivors try to do that first, each kick would be multiplied by 5 and you'd feasibly hit those kick count marks to get penalised, whereas if the survivors do four gens and then end up 3-genned, it'd take 5 times as long.
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Sounds like it's storing Adrenaline while you're on the hook, and then firing it before resolving Deliverance. Up to the devs what's right or wrong here.
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Very strong 'How do you do, fellow survivors' energy.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597527#Comment_3597527
DS wasn't just the stick. It was the carrot as well. It was a very popular perk often supported by BT, which limited tunneling (stick) and encouraged everything else (carrot) because it would allow the killer to ignore up to 8 perks per match. That is a very significant advantage.
You do not seem to understand why tunneling is such an attractive play style. It's stronger and easier than going for more hooks. Playing for hooks is very time inefficient. It consumes time that the killer doesn't have and it creates less pressure than the killer needs.
The aggressive use of DS was extremely popular because it had few counters. One counter was to grant them their wish and tunnel them. The other was trying to ignore it. Which didn't work all that because, if done right, that survivor could stop the killer from progressing by coming for the bodyblock, pallet stun, flashlight save etc. while they're team mates would repair gens. Progressing with 2/3 of the normal rate is much better than not progressing at all.
Oh yeah, I've said it before as well that pre-6.1, the survivor meta was basically three band-aid perks and an exhaustion perk, which is why I think some killers think that gens are faster now.
You do not seem to understand why tunneling is such an attractive play style. It's stronger and easier than going for more hooks.
That is kind of exactly what I've been using as an argument for why the carrot doesn't work.
The aggressive use of DS was extremely popular because it had few counters.
It had a very blatant counter in not pressing spacebar.
Which didn't work all that because, if done right, that survivor could stop the killer from progressing by coming for the bodyblock, pallet stun, flashlight save etc. while they're team mates would repair gens. Progressing with 2/3 of the normal rate is much better than not progressing at all.
But this would save, at max, one hit. The killer gets bodyblocked for one hit, but on the survivor side
1) It requires a hook state
2) Requires DS
3) Requires the unhooked survivor to do nothing of use for the majority of that chase
4) Somehow find a way to interfere in a meaningful way
5A) Still pull another survivor off a gen to reduce gen speed by another survivor because the heroic bodyblocker has to get picked up or
5B) Blow a single-use, second perk in Unbreakable after 16 seconds of incapacitation.
6) All within 60 seconds of unhook
Only if the killer picks up the DS user does the killer lose out. If you don't hit spacebar on that person, the situation benefits the killer tremendously. Again, if you don't pick the survivor up, trying to use DS aggressively is a losing play.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597323#Comment_3597323
BBQ was the proof that carrots do work. Until they removed the bloodpoint bonus.
Missed your post earlier, but: BBQ lost the BP bonus in 6.1. That is the exact same patch that removed the stick, so no, BBQ is not proof that carrots work.
That said, BBQ should get its BP bonus back, absolutely, same with WGLF. Those mini-objectives were undeniably super healthy for the game, literally just making each side feel better about the outcome of a match without giving them any extra power. No bad word about BBQ.
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@Volkfang said:
I think @Aven_Fallen raises a good point, if the incentive allows you to have your cake and eat it too then it's not a carrot, it's just a buff. So any design that addresses a gameplay pain point should take that into consideration. They've shown the ability to do that though with the changes to Ruin and NOED, so I don't see why they couldn't make them same progress with say Pain Res. Have it deactivate after one survivor dies but enable all hooks to activate it.
@Firellius As for Devour Hope having a low pick rate, that's kind of missing the point. What do you think would happen to it's pick rate if it wasn't a boon and just a normal perk? It'd be #1 for sure. Not saying it should be, that'd be way to OP. But it illustrates that the mechanic itself is solid as a carrot incentive. So it comes down to implementation of the carrot. To dismiss the entire design philosophy of incentivized behaviors because you haven't seen the perfect implementation yet is, to borrow your word, myopic.
I think the attitude of throwing in the towel and just needing to tackle problems with a stick mentality will lead to decline in this game. Games are just unfun when you feel like the game is punishing you just for playing it, when that happens people will stop logging in.
Even if Pain Res were to activate on every hook, would that be enough to outweigh the value of tunnelling?
I think @Aven_Fallen 's point wasn't so much that this is a good way to solve the issue, but more that current Pain Res isn't a proper carrot for non-tunnelling strategies and thus can't be used to support an argument about that.
But you're not just dealing with the strength of a tactic, you're also dealing with the input effort. Going for four clean chases is considerably more effort than one clean chase, followed by two off-hooks.
As for Devour Hope having a low pick rate, that's kind of missing the point. What do you think would happen to it's pick rate if it wasn't a boon and just a normal perk? It'd be #1 for sure. Not saying it should be, that'd be way to OP. But it illustrates that the mechanic itself is solid as a carrot incentive. So it comes down to implementation of the carrot.
I think you're missing my point though.
If you leave tunnelling unchanged, whatever mechanic you come up with would have to compete with that for effort and reward values. It can't break even with it because then it won't work as an incentive for most players. In order for it to be an incentive, it would need to be better for the killer. More rewarding, lower effort. And I don't think you can do that without decimating game balance.
Keep in mind that killers are at a slight advantage, judging by current stats. Your suggested solution is to put new tools in the killers' toolboxes that are more powerful than anything they have at the moment. What do you think that's going to do to game balance?
On top of that, whatever the alternative is will have to be easy to execute as well, otherwise less skilled killers will give up on it and go back to tunnelling.
On the flipside, we know that countermeasures can be put in place to deter these kinds of playstyles.
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597323#Comment_3597323
Sticks don't work either. What do you think will happen, when they eventually address all "no no, not good" killer strategies? We'll have the same problem all over again. Killers will double down on these because 12 hooking clearly doesn't work and there is no incentive whatsoever to even try.
Even a 10 seconds DS wouldn't save your butt, if killers in general decided to play for a 5 gen tunneling. In fact, this would be used aggressively and force the killer to tunnel even more. If every but one play style is nerfed, that doesn't make that one play style stronger.
That's why it needs both, the carrot and the stick. So far we've seen the stick with base BT, AFC and the upcoming 3 gen solution. But no actual carrot.
Sticks don't work either.
No, they do. From 4.6 onward, with DS being a dedicated anti-tunnel perk with proper weight behind its punishment, tunnelling became significantly less commonplace.
The reason there is now always an obsession, even if there is no perk to take advantage of it, is specifically because DS was working. No obsession meant that there was no DS, and it notably caused an uptick in tunnelling, which is why obsession became baseline.
6.1 brought the problem back in, because even though killers were universally buffed, DS was gutted and the replacement was countered by tunnelling harder. With the brakes removed, tunnelling is now back on the menu as a major issue.
The sticks work, so long as they don't get nerfed into plastic straws.
Even a 10 seconds DS wouldn't save your butt, if killers in general decided to play for a 5 gen tunneling.
But no killer is going to bash their head into a brick wall. A ten second DS would be a serious threat to tunnelling. No killer is going to want to deal with that every match. Yes, a killer that is tunnelling for the explicit sake of making one survivor's game miserable will do so no matter what. But tunnelling will cease to be meta, at the very least, if it's ineffective. I'm not particularly aiming for a 100% removal of tunnelling, but having it be rare instead of meta is already a huge improvement.
The majority of players will be playing to win or have a good time, and those will both be deterred by a ten second DS, even if they could technically tunnel through it.
In fact, this would be used aggressively and force the killer to tunnel even more.
Same point here: No survivor is going to bash their head into a brick wall. Leave them slugged out and they'll learn it doesn't work out for them to try to use DS offensively.
That's not to say people haven't been trying this against me, but after falling for it once, I turned every other instance of someone trying to pull that trick into a 3K+ because they wasted so much of their own time trying to pull it off. This one's a bit more of an issue because, every once in a while, it'll work against some newbie killer, but some instruction about that in the tutorial might spare them that, too.
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@Volkfang said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597323#Comment_3597323
Based off of this and other comments I've seen you post, it seems you have this mentality that all killer mains = bad and survivor mains = good. Which is very strange because you need both sides to enjoy playing the game if you want the game to be successful.
That aside, I gave 2 good examples of carrots that work. Pain Res and Devour Hope. If a carrot doesn't work, it doesn't mean carrots don't work at all. It just means it's a bad carrot. See Grim Embrace as an example.
Forums have a selection bias and I do think they draw out the worst killer players. Lots of forum killers are myopic or have an inflated perception of their own skill ('I am T O P M M R'). That's not to say there's no absolutely horrendous survivor takes either, but there's a lot of other 'survivor mains' that'll happily smack those down as well.
That aside, I gave 2 good examples of carrots that work. Pain Res and Devour Hope. If a carrot doesn't work, it doesn't mean carrots don't work at all. It just means it's a bad carrot. See Grim Embrace as an example.
Neither of those work though. Pain Res has been around for a long time and hasn't really done much to deter tunnelling, and Devour Hope has a very low pick-rate.
What has provably worked though, is DS, but that got absolutely gutted for no particular reason.
We've heard this 'carrot vs stick' argument a great many times, and it's not a solution. Whatever you'd want the 'carrot' to be would have to outpace tunnelling, camping, slugging, 3-genning for effectiveness, without also bolstering those tactics. Currently, the overall game balance is in a good state. Killers are -slightly- more powerful on average, showing more wins than losses, and your solution to fixing exploitative tactics is to very, very, -very- severely buff them.
Do you see the problem I have with that?
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"I'm concerned because it seems like the mindset they're adopting to address pain points in the gameplay loop is all stick and no carrot."
Carrots don't work. Killers will gravitate to the easiest, highest return strategy, and will continue to do so. Overpowered strategies (yes, chess merchant was plainly broken) need to be nerfed down, since you can't provide an alternative without breaking the game's balance even further.
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@appleas said:
Some of the comments are asking why Shattered Hope isn’t basekit against Boons.
By the same logic, Boon perks aren’t brought in every match, but when the Killer realizes it, it’s too late to equip Shattered Hope lol.
If Shattered Hope was basekit, COH probably wouldn’t have to be nerfed so heavily.
If not running Deja vu to counter 3 gens is supported, then shouldn’t the same be said for Shattered Hope vs boons?
Because boons have built-in counterplay. Shattered hope is just the nuke button.
It's like facing a wall when picking up vs. Lightborn. One of the two just deletes the mechanic entirely, but it has innate counters.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597028#Comment_3597028
The theme of the roadmap is "fixing things that both sides find frustrating", and survivors weaponizing DS was the most complained about part of the perk. It's the reason it got the conspicuous action stuff added, and it was the reason it got the 3 second nerf.
DS being 'weaponised' wasn't complained about at all post 4.6.
DS -existing- and doing what it was supposed to do was complained about. The complaint about DS was about it being a 'second chance' perk, not about people using it offensively.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596931#Comment_3596931
This is why DS should stay nerfed. The detection mechanic doesn't exist currently. The game can tell protection hits, and as a crude workaround, DS could activate on protection hits (regardless if the survivor being bodyblocked is injured).
Maybe the game, in the future, could tell which survivor the killer is primarily chasing. Like, if a killer and 2 survivors are going in the same direction, that the game would assume the primary target is the farthest of the 2 survivors.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596937#Comment_3596937
No. We really don't need to accept this. Let's be honest that the perk was popular because it doubled as a weapon.
No, you can't have DS deactivate on protection hit because the tunnelled survivor has no control over the others. Any other survivor nearby could end their DS for them. Not to mention that this would make tunnelling also counter DS because a smack off-hook is an immediate protection hit.
No. We really don't need to accept this. Let's be honest that the perk was popular because it doubled as a weapon.
It did not double as a weapon post 4.6 because it cannot work as a weapon. It is literally worse for the survivors to try and use it offensively. It helps the killer win. It makes survivors lose harder. DS was popular because, surprise surprise, the thing that is continuously complained about by survivors is something survivors dislike, so they gravitate towards a perk that works to remedy that problem.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596803#Comment_3596803
BHVR would find a way to detect if a survivor is purposely trying to bodyblock the killer, and deactivate DS if that is happening. DS would also deactivate if the survivor is under the effects of OTR, to prevent people from stacking DS with OTR.
They currently don't have a way to detect when a killer is locking a survivor into a corner, so what makes you think they can accurately determine when a survivor is not only bodyblocking, but bodyblocking with intent?
Honestly, OTR needs its own rework. Compared to DS, it's literally worse for both sides.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596854#Comment_3596854
If slugging wasn't an issue, then why was Unbreakable the second most picked perk?
To make it not an issue. That's the point of a counter-perk.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596816#Comment_3596816
But that was literally what happend when every killer thought that every survivor had DS. They slugged.
Not been around then? It was the change that introduced every match having the obsession sign, even when no obsession perks were in the match.
People forget this stuff really fast.
No they didn't. Second most picked perk was Unbreakable, so they couldn't.
Not been around then? It was the change that introduced every match having the obsession sign, even when no obsession perks were in the match.
Which was specifically to deny killers the ability to tell when DS was NOT in the match, because that'd immediately cause them to tunnel. Slugging was really nowhere near the issue you are trying to portray it as.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596733#Comment_3596733
Not trolling. If you honestly don't want to weaponize DS, then you should be fine if DS is nerfed so it can't be weaponized against the killer.
Because a nerf like that shouldn't affect you at all, right? If you don't want to weaponize DS, then you shouldn't even notice if DS gets nerfed so that it can't be weaponized, right?
Go on then, suggest something. How would you nerf DS to combat this alleged problem of yours without impeding its anti-tunnel function?
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596195#Comment_3596195
Strange there are so many calls to resurrect a perk so easy to counter-play.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596196#Comment_3596196
It will be.
Strange there are so many calls to resurrect a perk so easy to counter-play.
Because people prefer the gameplay of that perk's counterplay.
I mean, you do bring up a valid point, because the perk is legitimately terrible from an objective point of view, since it's super easy to counterplay and is very likely to never actually fire. And it still had a super high pick rate back before it got gutted simply because it made it more likely you got to play a full match, instead of being axed quicker than the queue timer.
All the complaints about gens going so fast nowadays is partially because DS was removed and didn't get a proper replacement, so the only proper counter to tunnelling became genrushing. Prior to 6.1, 3/4 survivor perks were counter perks. Now it's genrush or chase perks.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596707#Comment_3596707
Using OTR as a replacement for DS is already not a problem, and you can just do that if you want an anti-tunnel perk. You can still use it to aggressively bodyblock the killer.
Almost like I have zero interest in bodyblocking the killer, which is why I want DS back, instead of OTR, huh?
EDIT: Also, how is OTR NOT a problem? The very thing you're complaining about with DS is a much, much bigger problem with OTR than it is with DS.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596690#Comment_3596690
If you honestly just want an anti-tunnel perk, then you should be fine if DS is changed so that you can’t use it to aggressively bodyblock the killer. Surely, the killer isn’t tunneling if the survivor does that, right?
It already does that. Sure, you can try and tune it even more, but it was already not a problem.
If you're really that absolutely mortified of a situation unfolding that is beneficial to the killer, sure, try and figure out a way to handle this 'problem' without impeding its function as anti-tunnel. Go for it.
But something tells me that whatever you'll come up with is going to undermine it entirely. I mean, if you thought the 4.6 onward DS was 'unfair to the killer' outside EGC, your balancing standards are down with No Mither, so I don't have high hopes.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596583#Comment_3596583
And this is why it's for the best that DS has been weak for so long. People like you just want to weaponize the perk, to punish killers regardless if they are tunneling or not. If DS is supposed to be an anti-tunnel perk, then it should be anti-tunnel only, and we shouldn't have this weaponizing garbage where survivors try to force the DS on the killer.
Did you not forget something!?
Because while DS punishes this 'weaponisation' with lengthy incapacitation, we got OTR in exchange for it, which allows you to do exactly what you're complaining about WITHOUT that kind of penalty. Strangely, that one is not on your radar, or else you'd know what real, impactful weaponisation looks like and you'd stop whinging over having to slap a survivor once to knock 'em out for 30 seconds.
So how exactly, pray tell, has DS's execution been 'good for the game'?
Why is it so common for killers to look at situations that clearly benefit them and go 'This is too survivor-sided'?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596553#Comment_3596553
Survivors that weren’t being tunneled, would run straight for the killer, to aggressively bodyblock the killer, because they had an active DS. If a survivor does that, it shouldn’t count as tunneling, and the DS should deactivate.
Smack them once and it's dealt with. It costs the survivors more time than it does the killer. This is not a problem.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596337#Comment_3596337
There is a simple solution for that. Make going for other survivors more rewarding. Kinda like BBQ before they removed the bloodpoint bonus and stop hook bombing/body blocking after getting unhooked.
You'd need to chuck the entire game's balancing out of the window if you want to make tunnelling not be the lower effort, higher reward tactic.
Unfortunately, survivors do also get to play, and will want their own fair shot at winning, so that's not really an option.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596325#Comment_3596325
They could finally address the biggest complaint about DS, which is survivors weaponizing it. I used to have so many survivors that would aggressively try to bodyblock me, because I was chasing someone else, and they "didn't want to waste" their DS.
The list of conspicuous actions that deactivates DS, needs to be expanded to stop people from weaponizing DS.
Expanded with what?
DS cannot be weaponised. Any attempt to use it offensively is hard-countered by the killer -not- hitting spacebar on you.
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It's a good perk overall, but it has some unfair extremes. When 6.1 hit, essentially, a few of STBFL's stacks were made basekit, but they stack with STBFL, which means the maximum recovery speed you can get out of it can be so high that it can even deny post-hit dashes sometimes.
But the bigger issue, as already mentioned, is with camping. STBFL allows you to get a recovery so short that it can become impossible to save a survivor without giving the killer a down in return.
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596317#Comment_3596317
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596318#Comment_3596318
That makes sense, thanks for clearing up the confusion! I was under the impression that other actions that disabled DS was not implemented till 6.1.0.
@Firellius Slugging which is also complained about after tunneling and camping? So a Killer who plays nice and decides to go after the unhooker would potentially have to deal with an unhooked Survivor being annoying with bodyblocks/flashlight saves, down them and resume looking for the unhooker who would have probably have made some distance by then? Plus they can’t pick up the downed Survivor for a minute at the risk of a stun that people are calling for to be buffed from 3-5 seconds?
That doesn’t sound appealing to Killers who want to play nice.
Slugging which is also complained about after tunneling and camping?
Yes, bleed-out and 4K slugging are. If a killer leaves you on the ground because they don't want to tunnel you, that's an entirely different story.
So a Killer who plays nice and decides to go after the unhooker would potentially have to deal with an unhooked Survivor being annoying with bodyblocks/flashlight saves, down them and resume looking for the unhooker who would have probably have made some distance by then?
They won't make that much distance, since they don't get a movespeed boost and you're only slowed for one hit. And with flashy saves, it's no different from what that situation looks like without DS. If there's a non-DS survivor nearby that's fishing for a save, you hit them or drive them out just the same, to then go back and hook the person you downed initially. DS does not obstruct you here unless you decide to pick up the recently unhooked survivor within 60 seconds of them being unhooked.
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596283#Comment_3596283
According to here, Conspicuous Actions (CA) was first introduced in PTB 6.1.0, the 3s nerf and deactivation due to CA is mentioned in the same page too.
The DBD wiki here also indicates that the DS changes were all released together within the same patch. The Conspicuous Action page also indicates that the concept CA was implemented in 6.1.0.
I also looked at the previous patches, 6.0.X and there was no mention of Conspicuous Actions.
So if there was a patch that somehow got introduced between 6.1.0 PTB and 6.1.0 release patch which didn’t have the DS changes, please enlighten me on where I can find this information. Then we can talk about this period of time where DS was still 5 seconds and was deactivated by CA only.
That's because 'Conspicuous actions' wasn't a term until 6.1, because until then, the only perk that worked with that feature was DS.
If you check the changelog for 4.6 for DS, you'll notice that it lists all conspic actions as things that disable DS.
6.1 only applied the label to these actions. DS had been deactivating with these conspic actions since 4.6.
EDIT: Also, from your earlier post:
Unless the wiki is not updated, Conspicuous actions that disable DS do not include body blocks or flashlight saves. If 5 second DS got reverted, that means a Survivor who just got unhooked could just bodyblock the unhooker, go down, get a free escape when picked up and have 5 seconds to make a getaway.
DS does nothing to protect from slugging. If they body block, don't pick them up. They'll waste their own time more than yours. If they try to go for flashlight saves, just don't pick them up and keep your focus on the person you were going for. Down the flashlighter or chase them off, then return to the person you were originally going to hook, just like you do with any flashlighter.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
I’m hoping once 4 gens are done Survivors are able to pick one completed gen to reset with the initial gen completion still counting. The Killer would be alerted to which one.
That would be awful.
I think the 3-gen fix should be something where the survivors get gradually more pressure as the game drags on. The longer this last 3-gen isn't completed, the more repair speed they get to them.
Or maybe some kind of progress cementing thing, where every perfect skill check makes 1% of the gen's progress unregressable.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596238#Comment_3596238
Lets agree to not agree.
DS deserved a nerf after being uncontested and weaponized for so long. Its now a anti-tunnel perk. Some people would like to have it back at its weaponized status. Thats what i call a crutch. If you call it a band-aid, than thats just a different opinion and i´m ok with that.
Cheers
Yes, I know. Apparently, despite being corrected before, you are STILL confused about when DS actually got its conspic action nerf.
If you got hit with DS post 4.6, that was entirely your own fault.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596226#Comment_3596226
Most people would call DS a crutch.
Unless DS is now a killer perk and no one informed me.
No, most people would call DS a band-aid.
Killers really need to get over this 'survivors are only supposed to get one chance' mindset. Game's clearly built for them getting three.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596206#Comment_3596206
This answer in response to a DS thread is kinda...
you know?
What? Appropriate? Considering you brought the subject up?
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596200#Comment_3596200
But thats whats going to happen. Killers will slug everyone and survivors will complain about slugging.
We already had that.
It's almost like killers are desperate for crutches and just want to get a quick win with as little effort as possible!
Kinda like people have been saying, in regards to tunnelling.
Still, slugging is far more counterable than tunnelling. Any healing perk is a soft-counter to it, after all, not to mention the dedicated anti-slug perks.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596195#Comment_3596195
Do you want to get slugged? Cause thats how you get slugged.
I can at least do a thing while slugged, as opposed to sitting on the hook the whole game.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
I would say about 90% of killers would quit if they added 5 sec DS back.
That'd be hilarious, since it's the easiest perk to counterplay.
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It's a requirement of PvP games that some people have fun at the expense of others. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to minimise the expense.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593460#Comment_3593460
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592820/#Comment_3592820
I think it's silly to think that nothing should be implemented just because it won't stop tunnelling completely. That's like saying they should remove base kit borrowed time because people are still tunnelling.
That's not what I'm trying to say.
I'm trying to point out that trying to use incentives to lure killers away from tunnelling is practically impossible without also utterly demolishing game balance. Tunnelling is simply overpowered, so making non-tunnelling the more appealing option would require buffing killers to such a point that survivors have almost no chance of winning.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592727#Comment_3592727
I haven't thought of balancing it perfectly but here is one example. Hooking a different survivor than the previous one 4 times in a row causes all survivors to suffer a 25% action speed penalty. This effect deactivates once a survivor dies and only activates when 4 survivors are alive. This effect deactivates after 5 minutes (to prevent 3 gening).
Just to illustrate: You're suggesting a 25% action speed penalty, which is pretty heavy, and... It's still not enough.
As @Kaitsja mentions, in the general gameplay loop, not all survivors can be on gens. Even if you have only one survivor in chase and the others all on gens, going from 4 to 3 survivors would effectively be going from 3 to 2 survivors on gens, max. That's a 33% cut for 3 hooks, as opposed to a 25% cut for 4 hooks. So the reward is greater, and the cost is lower.
Even with that much of an action speed penalty, tunnelling would still be stronger.
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Nothing:
No one:
Not even Dead Hard:
Random forum killer main: >:(
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592197#Comment_3592197
instead of spamming it, ill refer to the latest video in this post : https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592247/#Comment_3592247
Okay, that doesn't change anything. Gens are still slower than they used to be. The only thing that video references that is new in any way is Hyperfocus.
Unless the survivors are using Hyperfocus, they are taking longer than they used to.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592131#Comment_3592131
Yeah, but there was also implemented a lot of gen rush perks, so they had to add another 10 secs. Otz have made a video on this, that proves that with the added gen time, the gen times are actually worse.
The only new 'genrush perk' that really saw any traction, though, was Hyperfocus. Outside of that, it's just perks being freed up due to anti-tunnel/anti-camp/anti-slug getting gutted.
And even then, I'm pretty sure gen times are still considerably longer than they used to be.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592131#Comment_3592131
Throw in that the only Boon perk worth anything was thoroughly removed from the game and healing was severely weakened. Survivors literally have no reason to prioritize anything other than gens. Gens aren’t faster; survivors just aren’t ******* around with nonessential gameplay elements anymore.
Yeah, but boons did allow them to heal a bit faster sometimes, so it's fair that it gets absolutely nuked from orbit. Can't have survivor perks do things that benefit the survivors!
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591465#Comment_3591465
But tunneling got worse when gen timers became faster. The best way to beat the gen rush is to take 1 out as fast as possible.
Gen timers were only extended though.
What actually happened is that survivors went from a full loadout of anti-camp/tunnel/slug stuff to genrush stuff, because BT became basekit, DS was butchered, and UB lost half its value due to no longer pairing with DS, freeing up three perk slots.
Tunnelling got a colossal buff, that's why the issue got worse.
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Honestly, I think the biggest failure on BHVR's part is their 'we don't go back on mistakes' policy.
6.1 had some seriously terrible changes in it that still haven't been undone. Ruin and DS getting cut in half were both just plain awful for the game.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591595#Comment_3591595
And somehow that 1 person you tunneled out is the key to winning once you let everyone do gens? I'm really failing to see how 1 person being out is gonna make or break opening the exitgates and leaving. You cant even get NWO stacks. It feels like you died to what is essentially a meme/troll build, so your tying in the completely separate tunneling issue to try to make a point.
That's like me claiming Nea should be deleted because Bully squads use her to T-bag.
"And somehow that 1 person you tunneled out is the key to winning once you let everyone do gens?"
I think that's the crux of the strategy Quizzy is talking about. Tunnelling has, as a weakness, that other survivors can rush gens unpressured. End-game perks can compensate for that.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591256#Comment_3591256
What else then? The gen speed increase alone is hardly usable when you don't know where it applies. The aura is the core part of the perk, gen speed is secondary.
Except if the killer locks down a 3-gen from the start, like with Chess Merchant, the aura reading is irrelevant because ultimately there'll only be three gens left, and you'll know all three locations after the first 30 minutes trying to break the 3-gen.
The speed is the primary value, the aura supports it.
If the aura was that valuable, Visionary would have a use.
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There was a very long topic about this a while back, but basically:
No, 60% killrate does not translate to a 50% winrate. It also doesn't translate to a 40% winrate. The way killrates convert to winrates is very wonky due to the large variety of trial outcomes muddying the waters. Even the distinction between a 3K and a 4K, even though they're both wins, complicates the math. And the distribution of outcomes is not exactly predictable, so 60% killrate doesn't really directly indicate anything about winrate.
But I'm also not sure the devs ever stated anything about a targeted winrate. I think they said they wanted a 60% killrate because that suits their goals for the game.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591175#Comment_3591175
Thats also correct.
But even now, with Chess merchant butchered, Deja Vu is the 7th most picked perk with a pick rate of 12%, according to Nightlight. It even increased pick rate in the last weeks.
I'm more so pointing out that the aura reading isn't necessarily the reason the perk became popular.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3589999#Comment_3589999
I'm not saying wrong things. Maybe a bit inaccurate, I give you that.
Deja Vu received three buffs/changes over the time. The longest time it was giving gens auras at the start of the match for one minute. That was it's weakest form, and no one played it for good reason.
Then it was changed to give 3-gen aura for 1 min at the start and after a gen is done. This was a significant buff, but the perk would still not be picked.
Then the gen speed buff was added (but duration stayed). So another slight buff. Was it picked then? No, still too weak.
Only with the last change, aura being unlimited, the perk finally was recognized and picked into builds.
I agree that having unlimited aura may be the stronger effect than the gen speed buff. But I still think the speed buff is required for the perk to be actually picked. Without it, there's no reason to pick it if you have some game knowledge where the most notorious 3-gens are on the maps. Deja Vu aura makes this just easier for you.
Only with the last change, aura being unlimited, the perk finally was recognized and picked into builds.
I think there's a big extenuating circumstance involved in this though.
Deja Vu acquired permanent aura reading in June, but around that time, maybe a little later, the Chess Merchant debacle also kicked off, which saw 3-genning skyrocket in popularity. That obviously makes the repair speed boost to 3-gens massively increase in value too.