DaddyMyers_Mori
DaddyMyers_Mori
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Ah, first Hag, now Twins.
Chance you played against several games against Hag is unlikely, but sure.
You managed to play against both Twins and Hag?
I highly doubt it.
Twins camping is not really good. So what there is Victor nearby? It's just single hit, then she has to walk from god knows where.
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@Zokenay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486767#Comment_3486767
You also shouldn't be able to place basically all the traps around hook, but here we are, long range camper that also severely slows down saves since you gotta deal with the traps, and you better pray she doesnt come back instantly.
Long range camper?
If she is long range, then nothing stop you crouching, unhooking and just run through them.
If she is nearby, that's just regular camper.
She is going to get nerfed by removing hook grab a lot for camping.
If you are at least decent in chase, just follow her and trigger/remove her traps on purpose, so she can never setup efficient web. That's how you counter a Hag.
Like how often you even play against her, she is like third least played killer...
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483701#Comment_3483701
Doesn't this sound exactly like the reasoning for the Nurse to be nerfed?
- Nurse is not an issue for top tier SWFs.
- But she's really good against SWFs.
- Then you have solo-queue, where she's broken.
- If your advice is not play solo-queue, then I can't be bothered to explain more how bad she is.
The funny thing is, everyone on this forum actually says, don't play solo-queue. So, using Nurse logic, don't play those killers if MFT is a problem.
She was already nerfed. Her biggest issues were removed.. She doesn't really need any major changes imo. I wouldn't nerf her more just to create another Billy -> difficulty is not equal to reward.
Since when Nurse cares about soloQ or SWF? There is not much unique things you need to share between players for SWF to matter (not more than any other killer)
Pinhead is soloQ stomper, but not really Nurse.
Either you know how to loop her or you don't. Issue is Nurse looping is kinda specific, so most players are bad at it.
But same is for Nurse players. She has very unique playstyle so you need basically relearn whole game. It's fun to play against bad Nurse for sure.
I have suggested many ideas on how to improve soloQ. It definitely still needs some help. I wouldn't argue about it. I will argue about specific ideas tho.
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Didn't you used to see Victor's aura even while he was on someone?
I haven't played Twins for a long time as everyone else, so I have no idea. I am pretty sure it used to be a thing tho.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485981#Comment_3485981
Incorrect. The 4 Killers that might actually be countered by MfT each have an add-on to counter/manage it other than Doctor (although Trickster was the weakest). Therefore I thought of ways to buff Doctor. No need to be so disingenuous.
Personally I would lump Trickster in the Knight and Hag's camp of nothing of value being lost
That shoe addon from Hag is hard meme. It's not good and you basically play completely different killer. It's also iridescent, so good luck.
Except Trickster, who is completely screwed without that add-on, all those add-ons you mentioned are quite bad.
Knights addon is not completely bad, but it's not optimal and it's purple.
Btw if you want to consider add-ons, then we can talk about Mirror Myers...
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485824#Comment_3485824
Bloodlust against SB - Yes, killing Survivors also makes them unable to run /s. The point was you said the SB/MfT breakeven point where MfT is better was 35s. You can basically know in a M1 chase with the Bloodlust mechanics whether or not SB or MfT was better based on the Bloodlust level reached. If you reached T3, MfT helped. If you reached less than that, the Survivor would have been better served by SB.
Non deadzone gens with windows - That also doesn't stop the Killer from approaching the gen from an angle perpendicular to the window, such that vaulting the window keeps you the same distance from the Killer (--W--- K [like such]). SB still allows for reaching safety, even if the Killer has better positioning from the onset. Also again if we have this fantasy world where every MfT gamer is running on entering TR, then the gen slowdown that perk is granting is far more value for the Killer than the chase lengthening is granting value for the Survivor.
Combo Perk - Resilience doesn't have an exhaustion pre-req, so anyone can stack it. Iron Will and Dead Hard are fair arguments though. Personally I find DH to be vastly overrated, although there is a fair argument to be made with a MfT double-dip. Honestly I feel triple/quadruple-dipping in 1 facet on either side with perks is only good for meme builds, such as all auras Huntress/Nurse. Opportunity cost is the largest factor. But for sake of argument I'll give MfT+DH and explore it below.
Assuming the Killer didn't bring Fearmonger (which I consider a must have if this paralyzed in fear of a MfT+DH wombo combo), I think most Killers still have little problem. All hyper-mobility attacks and top tier Killers already have no problem with that, so that rules out Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Oni/Wesker/Twins(Victor)/Demo(shredding). Pyramid Head, Artist, and Nemesis force hits at windows and pallets by zoning and not using power if bad for them. Deathslinger and Legion apply Deep Wound against healthy Survs if needed to counter DH, and Deathslinger's power hits counter DH anyways. Instadown Killers bypass the injured state so Bubba/Ghostface/Billy/Myers all don't care. Pinhead chains prevent both DH and MfT. I haven't noticed with Clown, but I believe Purple bottles still force medium vaults, even with MfT's haste (which is where most hits are gained) and Freddy's Hindered is also in Clown's boat. Wraith can both hit and run and intercept non Sprint speed Survivors before they reach the window or pallet to bodyblock them for a free hit typically. Most of the other M1 Killers such as Pig/Sadako/Dredge have stealth to edge out easier hits. Trapper has traps, although you aren't forced to kick god pallets and can trap it instead. So I guess the only Killer that doesn't get anything is Trickster.
Personally I would lump Trickster in the Knight and Hag's camp of nothing of value being lost, but that does bump the numbers from 3 to 4 Killers who can't meaningfully deal with MfT+DH (3/4 are not generally enjoyable Killers to deal with though). That isn't even going into add-ons so I'll check the 'countered' Killer's add-ons now. Hilariously enough, 7.1.0 Battle Hag Shoe will counter MfT almost perfectly (4.73-4.12 puts her net +.61 at or 14.8% faster than MfT compared to the normal 4.6 vs 4.0 15% faster). Blacksmith's Hammer For Knight actually hard counters the combo, as you let them outrun your guard and they are exhausted and 3% hindered for 15s, otherwise they have to burn DH on the guard early. The best Trickster has is 2.5% (or 3.5% with 2 add-ons) haste when throwing knives, which doesn't quite match MfT's haste, or the reduced effectiveness, since it is only adding to the sub 4.0 knife throw speeds. Doc is the only one to not even get anything in the realm, as there is no reduced slowdown on shock add-on or exhaustion add-on for him, again an outdated Killer in need of QoL love.
All in all including add-ons, skilled Killers all have the tools to deal with MfT+DH, with the sole exception of Doctor. With that I would suggest the following for Doctor's add-ons. Restraint class add-ons not only aura reveal on Madness tier-ups, but also exhaust for the same or double duration (1/2/3s or 2/4/6s). Calm and Order have both the big blast effects moved onto one of the add-ons, and the other one reduces the speed penalty for both types of shocking, similar to Trickster's Knife throw speed add-on. Alternatively they could have each get a speed boost to one type of shocking, one for the big blast, the other for Shock Therapy.
So summary :
there are some killers hard countered by MFT, but I don't like them, so I don't care...
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485714#Comment_3485714
SB math - In that same scenario MfT is giving 12.36m, compared to SB's 18m and the 4.6 Killer's 13.8m. Plus if the Killer is not chasing you, that already has given you the value needed. If the Killer does continue to chase, SB has a 6m flat reward, and MfT gives .12m/s, or 50s to match Sprint Burst. But I'll use your math of 35s below after a minor side point with Sprint Burst. Typically map resources are limited. The pallet, once dropped, is kicked and destroyed forever. (Theoretically it could be Any Means Necessary'd, but that would require you to not get downed near the pallet.) Sprint Burst can let you remain on a gen (in the case of no Fearmonger) and Sprint away to a further pallet or Window if the Killer tries to swap aggro onto you from the other person in chase (or just patrol your gen), when you otherwise would take a hit. Again, reaching safety helps prevent hits, and if you showed me breakevens on common loops with MfT compared to without MfT, that would help your point. For example I cede the argument that MfT makes shack 'unplayable', and by that I mean a skilled Survivor will always get 3 window vaults with MfT. Against a normal shack chase, it is at least still possible to hit a skilled Survivor before 3 vaults.
35s chase - It currently takes 15s to get Bloodlust 1, 10s (or 25s total) to get Bloodlust 2, and 10 more seconds (or 35s total) to reach Bloodlust 3. Legion can't do anything do drop Bloodlust without accidentally entering power (although Bloodlust also drops if stunned or kicking a pallet). If you are saying a Legion is unable to get a down with friggin 9.9s of Bloodlust 2, you are saying the Legion is so inept they deserve to lose, to which I would agree. We are in the realm of both sides being skilled opponents however. So in that realm, Bloodlust 2 means the Survivor gets hit. In that world, it is mathematically impossible for MfT to ever have more value than Sprint Burst. The only exception is a pallet that is forced to be kicked, such as shack pallet, and many indoor maps have multiple god pallets with no windows. Since the Survivor is forced to drop the pallet, they will quickly burn through the map resources of these god pallets, and subsequent chases will result in quicker downs. Even if relying on medium strength pallets, with Bloodlust 2, the pallet is too weak that even when the pallet is respected, the follow up loop will cause them to be downed. When I check the math on pallet kicks in a 'hold-W' scenario, it takes 15.6s/20.085s to catch up after a pallet kick, normal/MfT timings. (2.34s pallet kick with starting distance of running away during that timeframe with 4.0/4.12 m/s, and the Killer catching back up at .6/.48 m/s.) So in both cases the M1 Killer should at the very least have Bloodlust 1 back up before the Survivor is hit.
So for a pallet overview, Weak pallets like RPD save room under the library, anyone can get a hit on. Medium Strength pallets, like the pallet in RPD library, can be Bloodlust 2'd (dropped or up). God pallets, like on the main stairwell in RPD, must be kicked, but are also permanently deleted once dropped. If you can perfectly chain god pallets you can survive, otherwise the Killer is getting a hit, typically in under 30s. There simply isn't enough time for a skilled M1 Killer to allow for a Survivor to get more value with MfT than Sprint Burst outside of the chained god pallets.
Does Bloodlusting on either side feel good? No. Does going against a good Survivor with MfT feel good? No. But all Killers have a basekit method of dealing with it at the very least, and it can be done typically in under 30s of chase.
Edit: Spelling/Grammar
Bloodlust will also work against SB.
If anything bloodlust is stronger against SB than MFT. Simply because difference between movement speed is bigger.
I can agree SB is better single perk, but it's not better overall. MFT has really good synergies with other perks. Resilience, Iron Will, Dead Hard.
Not all gens are in deadzone, many gens have window nearby, you can also get SB effect by simple prerun when killer gets nearby.
SB makes you feel safer in deadzone, MFT will make you feel safer while injured.
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If you want to chase and nothing else, then start playing 1v1.
I wish they would make it public mode....
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My favorite killer -> he gets boring...
How that works? Seems like he is not your favorite killer.
He is one of my more played killers and he is in decent spot imo. I quite enjoy his unique playstyle where you can chase multiple people at the same time.
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@Leguś said:
People do also forget that Made for This' Haste buffs post-hit boost so catching up to Survivor just passively takes longer. There was Math already done so I will just paste the numbers in. It's obviously not fully accurate but it gives some idea (Lunges near the end of catch-up and such).
For 4.6 m|s Killer
- Current : 23.21s
- Old (pre 6.1.0) : 25.79s
- Current + Made for This : 29.98s
This is at relatively **bad usage** btw. It doesn't factor chasing at loops and such because it's a bit Map-specific.
"But it doesn't pair with Exhaustion." argument kinda falls flat. Especially with previously mentioned speed-boost buff.
"Oh you would've reached the window/drop/Pallet to activate Exhaustion Perk but you were 0.5s too late? Made for This will help you overall to reach these now". Overcome might seem to trumpt it but sometimes you won't be able to be Healed but recover the Exhaustion so MFT just helps with that as well.
The only Exhastuion Perks that don't pair with MFT at all are Sprint Burst and technically Background Player if it's somewhat actively used.
And additionally it has an anti-slug capability from the Endurance part. I hope Twins' changes in early 2024 manage to fix their Endurance problems.
At this point, slightly buff Haste and tie it to Endurance. Basically, gain Endurance with 5% Haste for 6/8/10s. Keep the Perk's effect while Injured but not sure about Exhaustion penalty after changing the Perk to that version. Would need testing but this is one of better ideas I could make on the fly.
Anyone wanna shout "Objection!" and present a proper counter-argument to this?
Objection! MFT is fine.
Source: trust me bro
Nah, it's broken...
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485091#Comment_3485091
Sprint Burst/MfT - You already restricted the discussion to 'Survivors with skill', so in that subset yes Sprint Burst is more powerful. Survivors without skill, to retread on already covered ground, make both MfT not juicy, and walk with Sprint Burst when they shoudn't. You have to include 99'd Sprint Bursts in the discussion if you also allege all these Survivors are god loopers that win every 50/50 mindgame, especially due to MfT. Yes, its fair to say Sprint Burst gets 1 big use, and MfT gets multiple chances at value, but my argument is the multiple MfT chances sum up to less total value than the 1 big use of Sprint Burst in ~90% of cases. Even before MfT came out, as long as you were a variety Killer, you would know how to take 4.4 basic loops from playing Huntress/Slinger/Spirit/more. MfT effectively makes 4.6 into 4.48, so it makes you a 4.4 Killer with extra wiggle room. It makes sense if basically all the complaints are coming from 1-tricks who haven't learned other Killers of the game. Plus that also is entirely discounting power use and bloodlusting.
Thana - I can't tell if you are ignoring what I'm writing about Thana, or I'm not explaining it right. Lets ignore that and stop talking about it.
Sprint Burst gives you about 150% movement speed for 3 seconds. That's 18 meters while killer can walk too, which is 13,8 meters. So SP gives you from deadzone, but on distance it is only 4,2 meters, which is 7 seconds.
That's why I keep telling you Sprint Burst does different thing than MFT. SB is nowhere near is good at extending chase compare to MFT. SB is best at allowing you start in safe zone, but unless it's instadown killer, I will just get there with injure speed.
That's why I am telling you MFT is closer to Overcome in it's effect, both require to get injured for free distance. MFT is simply way better at it and get secondary effect too for some reason.
Btw for MFT to give you value equal to SB you need 35 seconds chase. You want to tell me, you are not able to last 35 seconds in chase against Legion?
Also big difference is SB is used at start of the chase, where killer is basically free to drop that chase without any time investment. MFT gives passive value in injured state, so killer is more likely to overcommit to your chase.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485481#Comment_3485481
What slowdown perks?
Nowhere to hide would be still good perk, I use it regularly on Spirit (she doesn't see auru in phase), you just fake direction so survivor doesn't know.
So my build for Nurse would probably be Nowhere to hide, pop, pain resonance, Eruption.
Screaming would still work, so Infectious Fright for slugging builds would be valid too.
Deadlock, No way out, Corrupt are also an option, but Deadlock is not optimal with gen exploding perks, if survivors notice it, they can use your perk to deny your regression -> finish gen when you are about to hook etc. or you get simply unlucky.
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@CatnipLove said:
I feel like she's the only killer that has to be played badly for you to be able to beat them. If the Nurse is roughly as skilled as the survivors, the match will almost always result in a win for the Nurse. You have to be a much better survivor to dodge blinks than you do to land a blink as Nurse. That's not even accounting for aura reading which makes her blinks even easier to land.
Even after the nerfs she's still too strong. But she needs nerfs that don't require Nurse players to relearn her from scratch. I haven't put a ton of time into learning her, but some people have spent 1000's of hours learning her. So their time investment shouldn't be patched out of the game.
I mean, is she best killer in DBD? For sure
But I don't really know what you would want to nerf again. Maybe some number changes, but nothing major.
Main thing were range add-ons and instadown perks. Both got removed, so I don't really have an issue with current Nurse.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I don’t think Nurse is that far off from being fine, honestly.
I do think she needs one more nerf though, and it’s that she shouldn’t be able to see survivors’ auras while blinking. Aura perks on Nurse remove too much of her counterplay.
You don't know what you ask for.
She already can't run perk for basic attack.
You want to remove aura reading perks.
So what is left? Basically only slow down perks.
I will rather play against wall hack Nurse than 4 slowdown Nurse any day.
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@Meepy13 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485095#Comment_3485095
I don't think this would solve anything, they can still spawn next to the first gen everyone hops on
Sure, but they don't know it's a hex.
If it is only blocked they know about it even if they are walking around (searching for gen) and can simply return later.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484831#Comment_3484831
But ranks didn't give you any bonus?
That amount is not worth the effort, so wouldn't really miss it.
Overall match making simply made sure that regular players didn't play with new / after break players. Which was good enough for me.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484434#Comment_3484434
Technically you can ignore dhope as well. There are killer players that will hard-guard the totem - in this specific case it's better to just finish gens. But usually, you just have to cleanse the totem. Same as all the other mentioned (NOED included - you rarely have everyone be able to leave before you can down someone with noed - thanks to 5% speed bonus). Blood favor sure needs you to burn thru pallets - if you are not on the game or maybe shattered square, then you won't have enough pallets to ignore it.
That being said. I will repeat myself that hexes should get immunity for first 20s of match to be cleansable. At least give enough time that killer can move to them or have at least some chance to use them.
Rather immunity why not display hex (light effect) after that duration instead. Looks like dull first 20 sec
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484776#Comment_3484776
Thana/bad perk (Blood Echo) on 2 Killers - Which was the exact 2 Killers you listed as getting destroyed by MfT as it is so ridiculously 'broken', and I gave you 2 reasonable counters for them to use with greater efficacy than Fearmonger (and I guess you completely ignored the last sentence and got caught up far too much on the word 'counter' in the case of Thana), heck they even both can stack for added effectiveness. This would be like saying Corrupt Intervention is bad on Trapper. A specific perk pick being more valuable on a specific Killer, my word. (To restate/rephrase the Thana 'counter' argument, if chases are taking 20% longer, and gens are taking 20% longer, the effectiveness of both functions are countering one another from a macro standpoint.)
Fearmonger 5s - If you can't get a down with the Survivor burning 5s walking or taking 10 fast vaults (or any combo thereof) and they won every single mindgame, unironically skill dif git gud, yuh got larger problems than a single perk. If they leave immediately on 32m TR to walk the 5s directly away from you, it still loses them ~6 seconds in chase compared to running immediately. (A theoretical 53.33s insta-run hit versus 47.29166s walk for MfT hit.) Also what Survivor actually instantly walks/runs on TR to the point you can't see them leave and cut them off shortening this time further? Heck in that world I would have 50% slowdown by walking around as Killer on most maps. Whenever that happens I get free hits due to people waiting out the Fearmonger exhaustion more than enough to make up for the times I get less value. It most certainly will help in the first chase, because they only need to tap the gen for a milisecond to get exhausted. If you find a cross-map runner you can get the injury and move on to greener pastures if that paralyzed in fear of MfT.
I still think MfT speed isn't a problem because of the opportunity cost with Sprint Burst. (To be fair, the endurance shouldn't be on the perk, throw it onto Buckle Up or something else and it'd be fine.) You have to give up Sprint Burst essentially to use it, and Sprint Burst is far more valuable than MfT in pretty much all cases other than Knight and Doctor, although I'll take your word for it on Hag as well. So only for less than 10% of killers is MfT better than Sprint Burst. Feel free to complain as a Doc/Knight/Hag main, but thank them for not using SB as everyone else.
I am not saying Thana is bad perk for plague or Legion. I am saying it's not a counter to MFT. It's a slowdown perk.
Do you consider corrupt intervention, or deadlock as counters to MFT? I doubt it.
Sprint Burts have it's own limitation, mainly you have to change your playstyle for it to be effective. Most players can't be bothered doing that. It's why you see so many Lithe players, it's simply easier.
MFT has again different purpose, but it's not hard to use, you just loop as usual, but it's easier / more effective.
Lithe and SB helps you get from deadzone and start chase.
MFT helps you extend chase overall. MFT is basically Overcome on steroids.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483302#Comment_3483302
Getting to iri gets you an additional million BP. You can do that into about 10-15 games, or if there's an even on, 4 games.
I don't try to pip at all, I forget the system even exists most of the time, and I still reach gold each month. That's plenty enough.
Yeah, imagine playing full tryhards 60-70 games so you get reward equal of 10 games, just so you lose all your progress and can do it again. It's way more games for survivors...
I really don't like grades. I prefered ranks way more.
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Imagine how many survivors would throw the game just so they can die to her. Especially if she would have good Mori :D
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484024#Comment_3484024
The hard counter to the allegedly impossible to counter/too powerful perk is there, and 15s downtime is what make it unusably bad? I don't understand what you are complaining about. Its like saying "I want some good ole bird meat" and when the person gives you both Chicken and Turkey you respond, I actually want Ostrich meat. Its the same backwards logic in saying Discordance doesn't counter Prove Thyself when you don't know they are pumping gens. The issue was people remain injured against Plague/Legion. Both perks hard counter/punish that behavior. If they heal into Thana, you get the bonus slowdown, if they remain injured you can get Blood Echo to delete not only MfT, but also all other Exhaustion perks other than basically Nicolas Cage's new exhaustion perk (which requires being healthy).
To think of things a different way, Legion/Plague's power, is to have Survivors always have 1 health state, or heal at the cost of 2-5s injuries (as well as downs with red puke). Getting even a single down and hook provides so much pressure, that the Survivors have a ticking clock or they die. Thana arguably helps camping more (injuring all 4 makes gens take 112.5s instead of 90s), and Fearmonger or Blood Echo help chase more. Even then I would still make the argument that Thana can serve as a counter to MfT. MfT makes chases take longer (but still go down), Thana makes gens take longer (but still get popped), so both side's opponents' main objectives are taking longer as a result. They both are serving effectively the same role, but to be fair using the phrase 'counter' makes it imply it is in direct opposition instead.
Thana is simple slowdown that works for two killers.
It's easy for them to get value from it. It works same whenever survivors have MFT or not.
If it is possible for survivors to beat it without MFT, it will be easier with MFT.
Thana doesn't change effectiveness of MFT in any way. With this logic is ruin counter to MFT? Or corrupt, deadlock? No...
Fearmonger is not counter to MFT, that has to be a joke. 5 seconds is nothing, you can lose after first loop while mind gaming.
Killer has 4 perks and you expect to killers bring bad perk to counter a perk few survivors might have. While losing effectiveness in other games. Oh good, I am going to ignore one perk (for few chases) while losing slow down, chase perk or information perk, so I am likely to lose anyway or other games for it. Blood echo is not a good perk, never was.
It is not going to help in first chase and it basically forces you to commit into each chase, otherwise you lost any value from it and have to deal with MFT again.
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@k3ijus said:
@DaddyMyers_Mori behind every post i ever leave u always against it😭what u think abt this one tho
Sounds good to me, it would help to bring actually valid perks into the game too in theory.
It would be better if you could use it in custom, but that would need some work already.
It would be easier to just have question marks for icon, some generic name and what perk does.
Then they could simple implement voting system for players to leave fast feedback and have more detailed discussions on forum.
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How often people actually see 3 hook total tunneling?
It's so long since I have seen it. Most of tunneling I see is simply understandable for me.
Either my teammates screwed it and created situation, where it's simply too easy to tunnel someone, or it's 1-2 gens left.
But kill is usually around 6-7 hooks total.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Part of the 3 gen problem are survivors that run away from a generator as soon as they hear a terror radius (or lullaby), and by the time the killer reaches that generator, the survivors are so far away that it's not worth chasing them.
If killers are supposed to chase a survivor instead of just defending an area, they need to be able to actually get into close range chases in a reasonable timeframe, which sometimes can't happen if survivors are allowed to excessively hide or excessively pre-leave generators.
Well, but that's also how you beat 3-gen.
You just need more survivors doing this on different gens. Then you will finish gen or killer is forced to commit sooner or later.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484221#Comment_3484221
blood favor, new crowd control, dhope, noed and 3rd seal (though only in soloQ) are hexes you shouldn't really ignore. FtD depends on other perks, plaything depends on killer, huntress and ruin def need buffs.
NOED is late game and you can definetly ignore it and just leave if needed.
Crowd control highly depends on map, but sure it will be decent with buff.
Blood favor is countered by pallet predop, it usually does anything only if you don't know about it. It can work on fast killers.
I talked about Devour hope, that's only one where you are going to die if you ignore it.
All other hex perks is possible to ignore and finish game with them active.
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@JonOzzie16 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484221#Comment_3484221
Devour hope will need to be nerfed if they are going to buff hex perks.
Blood favor, third seal, (buffed) crowd control and ruin are all very strong hexes. And obviously the only ones being used. Crowd control is going to be a very scary hex once the buff is released.
And certain killers, huntress lullaby is kind of scary as well. Pig and doctor come to mind.
I hardly think survivors will want to ignore those.
Blood favor - predrop pallet if needed
third seal - blidness, who cares
crowd control - map dependant
ruin - hard nerfed, waste more time to look for it than actual ruin effect
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@JonOzzie16 said:
Hexes are not bad. Ask any survivor main. Yes there is a risk of them being cleansed early. But given the strength of their effects, it's certainly warranted. If you want your hex to stand you will need to defend it. And if you want to make it harder for them to cleanse then there is undying, thrill of the hunt, etc. Most of the hex perks are so devastating that survivors will be stupid to not drop what they're doing to search for it. Yes, some hexes are a bit weaker than others, but they all can be devastating to survivors, depending on killer, map, add ons etc.
Most of the hex perks are so devastating? That's true basically only for Devour Hope.
Rest can be ignored and it's usually not worth looking for it. Luckily spawns are trash, so you will find it sooner or later while chasing or working on gen.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484059#Comment_3484059
Actually, the bots are kind of pointless because of the DC penalty. People will instead throw on hook to avoid the penalty and prevent the bot from replacing them. That's the entire point of the post (for those who don't want to read the "paragraph vomit" as one person described).
Right now DC penalty is a thing and I still see DC more than hook suicide.
Bots are still an improvement. Without DC penalty, some killers would be unplayable, just because survivors instantly DC an killer is left with bots.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'm sure devs are aware of this and will take adequate action when needed.
Yeah, after 2 years...
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If there is no DC penalty, then bots are kinda pointless.
You will have everyone leave as soon first survivor leave.
Don't like killer? DC
Don't like map? DC
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483648#Comment_3483648
I didn't get to use my power because they kept revealing me. And I didn't get to use my stealth because it was Coldwind.
MfT is barely noticeable. It's just 3%. You're all nuts.
"But the math-" no, it doesn't doesn't work that way in practice. That math would require every survivor to have instantaneous reflexes and perfect pathing, and doesn't factor in that bursts of speed are far more advantageous than minute sustained increases.
You're all crying that the sky is falling over theoretical numbers.
MfT is worse than Sprint Burst.
It's not worse than SB, it has different purpose...
It also has synergies SB doesn't have.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483712#Comment_3483712
Huntress/Slinger rock 'infinites'. Yeah, it exacerbates and existing problem, but you still get the down on the large rocks. It takes longer, sure, but you still get the down. When it comes to the full height loops that aren't jungle gyms it basically tests the player's map knowledge and Slinger/Huntress hitbox knowledge. Jungle gyms require timed snipes rounding corners.
Knight, Doctor, Legion, Plague, Hag - Yeah, yep, what?, excuse me lol, maybe fair enough (Hag is in the Knight's camp of nothing of value being lost though). Any bog standard M1 Killer can deal with it easily enough other than the first 2 you listed, as detailed before. Legion and Plague though?!? They legit are among the best users of both Thana and/or Blood Echo, which hard shuts down staying injured to play against their power. If they heal, then you win from massive slowdown with Legion, or red puke as Plague. All it takes with Legion/Plague is 1 good 50-50 mindgame in the worst of normal cases (other than shack/GoJ Window/some of Campbell's main building layouts, but those latter examples are why I use Bam on Legion even before MfT came out.)
Eruption was an issue for SWF if you didn't know how to make call outs properly - So 99.99% of matches it was a problem? I gave an example of your usual SWF match, as nearly no one is calling out like Hens' sweat squad style. You couldn't meaningfully 'call out' Eruption unless you were purposely losing in chase to proc it early. Even then that would give plenty of slowdown by shortening chases and providing greater pressure. Heck even if we ignore SWF entirely it was something like 60% of matches it would be oppressive in its own right.
ToT - Yeah to be fair I was hyping up my main man ToT, like I said, lemme sell my Snake Oil. The issue is hypothetically does everyone hop off gens until you see the chase on the HUD, or do they pump gens and risk the free damage state? I have a positivity bias towards ToT, so I can't give a strictly fair answer to that, but I think they pump gens and risk it. However I get value once in a match and call it worth the perk slot, kind of like Blast Mine as well. I won, even if I lost, because I got ToT/Blast Mine value. Positivity bias.
Blood echo is simply bad perk. High CD and two requirements for limited effect. When they remove CD, I might consider it.
Thana is not counter to MFT. MFT doesn't require you to stay injured, that may be true only for resilience, but not needed.
Against Legion, just taking Thana is still better than heal tho.
Thing is those builds existed and were used before MFT was a thing. They are not super strong, they are not hard to beat. You just push through, it's not countering chase perks. MFT still does give you that effect.
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@JdoHybrid428 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483170#Comment_3483170
Like I said maps released since they redid totem spawns having gotten the same treatment
Then it was kinda pointless to "fix"(which they didn't) when they screw it again...
Swamp still have basically guaranteed totem spawns.
Autohaven still has totems next to tree in open space.
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@nars said:
I dont even notice half the time I just play blight
Who would have thought mach 3 blight won't notice 3%.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483701#Comment_3483701
i am explaining pulsar's point of view and other people POV for why they think MFT is fine. I am not saying killers need buffs. I am saying that balance is relative to the situation. '
But that perk was still super broken. Low escape rate, low pick rate and still one of most annoying perks.
You don't really know that. maybe it was broken overall. maybe it wasn't. In the context that I describe OoO, OoO was broken. A killer following a survivor around a binary circular loop for 10+ minutes straight around midwich elementary school was unhealthy. that is why OoO got changed. on technical level, the problem is still there but it is not as easy to exploitable with object as before. Instead you can exploit it with by stacking haste perks hence I imagine something will be done in regards to haste stacking at some point in time.
And all I am saying those arguments have many flaws.
MFT is nowhere near fine level.
Of course I know it was broken. I was playing during that time and it was hell to deal with it and I know what devs said about that perk.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483648#Comment_3483648
Ok lemme sell my Snake Oil. Trail of Torment (even unbuffed from the PTB proposal) is vastly underrated and gives nearly everyone the chance to be a stealth Killer. Also most non-stealth Killers lack the larger audio cues to tell when they sneak up (barring Oni/Nemmy and the like), so it arguably makes it an even more powerful stealth than actual stealth Killers. It does help to play stealth Killers often enough to know how to approach, but still isn't fully needed.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483666#Comment_3483666
Ok you gotta be delusional if you think Eruption wasn't a problem for SWF as well. A normal case would be like: "Ok let go, oh wait Plague didn't swing, ok I'm taking a pallet 50/50, ok Mikaela failed a letgo skillcheck, WAIT #########, that was some lag, I was around the corner, sorry all 3 of you are hit by Eruption now." Eruption was oppressive for every Survivor, not only against Survivors who don't bring a general perk (the equivalent being Fearmonger for MfT), and even then I don't consider MfT oppressive (as a Sprint Burst or Lithe is far more useful in more cases against Survivors with skill, Survivors without skill as established prior don't matter when they use MfT).
Low Skill Huntresses and Deathslingers have a complaint, but once they start learning and taking the risky top shots over loops they start to win. Doc and Knight are legit hard countered, but nothing of value is lost in the case of Knight being countered. Doc is just outdated and in need of some QoL love. I do like that he had some tomes to get more eyes on him, and hope it reveals his flaws and gets helped out.
I am looking forward trail of torment for sure, but you are not really stealth killer, because of it.
Everyone can see, you went stealth and where was your last position. It's also highly map dependant.
Eruption was an issue for SWF if you didn't know how to make call outs properly. Was that perk good? Yeah, but nowhere near as good as against soloQ. Effectiveness of Eruption SWF vs soloQ is not even close.
Same goes for MFT. It is still good against Wesker, or Blight and can save you for sure. It's just not insane perk.
But if you play against Knight, Doctor, Legion, Plague, Hag, then it gets into broken state.
It's not really about low skill as Huntress, Trickster, Deathslinger. There are loops where you can't use your power. Mainly rock loops, you have to either drop chase or force it for pallet drop. MFT makes this so much worse.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483666#Comment_3483666
well that is why they changed eruption, right? they saw killer was using eruption a lot and whenever the eruption perk was used, the killer would have higher win-rate ratio then when he was not using the perk. this makes sense because... well most games are soloq games and eruption was strong vs soloq therefore perk got nerfed.
old Object of obession had low escape rate, while it was one of most annoying and best perks survivors (SWF) could use.
it had low pick-rate because... the killer seeing your aura was significant drawback to the perk. Like old OoO is better then any tracking perk on killer. Like if you gave this perk to killer. some killer players might equip the perk. the average matches are soloq matches so of course the perk had low escape rate. SWF is minority of games and then there is even less good swf vs bad swf's. I have no clue what escape rate for good swf using OoO was but it was likely positive win-rate. in my opinion, OoO was imbalanced but only specific maps where aura reading could be exploited to hold shift-w. Old gas heaven was an example of that. there used to be those huge debree piles where you could run in circles endlessly with aura reading. Another classic example is midwich elementary school where people would stand at 1 end of hallway with wallhacks and you as killer would need to go all the around for like 10+ minutes to catch-up to a survivor running in a circle.
so In my opinion, statistic cannot not catch OoO imbalance because it is so specific that it does not occur in the average game. that is why statistics don't mean everything and you really need analysis gameplay to see an issue with something like that.
Oppresive perk for part of player base is still an issue.
Pulsar could be right. MFT might not be oppressive because average killer is strong enough to not have troubles with it. Does blight really care that you move 3% faster? Likely not really. Can it make him lose? It can but likely not enough for it to be game-breaking therefore balanced. Then take Otz sadako clip. Is sadako on average strong enough to beat MFT? I don't know. Perhaps vs Sadako, Sadako loses more when playing vs MFT. So sadako/x killer might need buffs. In the end, what is balance and what is not balanced is relative.
It had low pick rate, because SWF needed only one per team. Same as CoH.
It had low escape rate, because as soon killer noticed OoO, they went full tunnel.
But that perk was still super broken. Low escape rate, low pick rate and still one of most annoying perks.
MFT is not an issue for top tier killers, because of their mobility. That's why they are top tier killers.
But it's really good against average M1 killers.
Then you have few killers where it is actually broken.
If your advice is not play those killers, then I can't be bothered to explain more how bad this is.
If killer loses more against a perk you want to buff killer instead? It doesn't make any sense, because not everyone wants to use that perk. That's just creating more issues. Some of those killers who struggle against MFT needs buff, but most of them would be absolutely fine without this single perk existing.
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@ImTheOneWhoChases said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483578#Comment_3483578
balanced it is not, like most things in the game for the classic reasons. You either buff for solo q or nerf for swf, but because they matchmake in the same lobies, killers get either juiced or survs served on silver platter. It's not a problem with 3%. It just is not. I can juice with sb all day without the guy ever hitting me, or finding me (lightweight + sb is very strong combo, I think currently the strongest for quick escapes, therefore survival) But it's not fun, the killer is bored, I am bored. So I run mft and it makes everything tiny bit more balanced sometimes. I say sometimes because there is nurse, billy, blight, wesker, trickster, knight, marchant, huntress, the plague. Only the most played killers in the game and mft is just useless against them. (trickster is maybe not that played but he is ranged and mft is pointless) So yeah, it may be a slight advantage to one killer, but they wait 15 seconds and they counter it anyway, and then you have the rest to which it does nothing, where the actual value of the perk is the endurance. People over rate this perk so much its insane.
nurse, billy, blight, wesker, trickster, knight, marchant, huntress, the plague
That's so wrong for lot of them.
Nurse, Blight don't care at all, that's true. Wesker also not so much.
SM, Knight definetly don't ignore MFT.
Trickster and Huntress wants to DC on rock looprs against MFT, that's hell.
Plague's main counterplay is to play injured. How the hell you think she ignores MFT?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483655#Comment_3483655
well that is logic in games right? its called win-rate. most games have targeted win-rate 50%. dbd has targetted win-rate of 60% on killer i.e you are expected to win with 3k or 4k 60% of the time and it has targeted win-rate for survivor where survivor must have at least 4 survivor escaping, 3 survivors escaping or 2 survivors escaping through exit gate at 40% ratio. so in principal, MFT might be balanced. it probably is balanced because strong killer exist but it could imbalanced vs x killer that are weak. more people play strong killers then they play weak killers. you get the picture.
Statistics are basically useless for this. Do you want to tell me your consider Nurse weakest killer and Pig strongest killer in dbd?
If no, then you can't use it for perk either. You don't get to cherry pick.
You think escape rate matters for perk and should decide balancing? Well guess what, old Object of obession had low escape rate, while it was one of most annoying and best perks survivors (SWF) could use.
Oppresive perk for part of player base is still an issue. That's exactly same for killer perk that was oppresive against soloQ and not against SWF. Eruption was not an issue for SWF at all. It was possible to beat it. But it was hell for soloQ. That's why it was an issue. Exact same logic applies for MFT.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483593#Comment_3483593
I think his point is that you can defeat survivors with MFT because most survivor are not good at looping. MFT is strong when survivor is good at looping so statistically, the perk will have an average death and escape ratio. in other words, they won't change it because it is not performing out of expectation. the weaker survivor won't use it. its too hard to use. they'll use lithe because its better value for that level of play. the people that are using it do not use it well. the people that will use it well are top 0.1% of survivors but they don't balance around for killer or survivor.
I can say that about any perk or killer that was nerfed.
It was possible to beat old Nurse, because most of them are not good at Nurse....
It was possible to cleanse old Undying and win against it... Was it balanced? Hell no, but it was possible to win against it.
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@Seraphor said:
I just went against a squad with 2 MfT and 2 Sprint Bursts as Ghostface.
Guess who I managed to catch. It wasn't the Sprint Bursts.
Oh no, insta-down killers don't mind MFT, so new discovery...
Stealth works too, who would have thought, because that's basekit for every killer, I nearly forgot... oh wait
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@ImTheOneWhoChases said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483561#Comment_3483561
i do, its fun, i just die 3% of the time later. its not game breaking, counter is bloodlust and thata basekit btw. mtf is over rated AF
it's not 3% later, it's 20%. Math is not really difficult for this....
Blood lust is not counter. MFT makes bloodlust worse instead. Thana is not counter. MFT doesn't really benefit from being injured outside of chase, you are free to heal.
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@ImTheOneWhoChases said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483570#Comment_3483570
mtf costs you a health state, thats the trade.
It doesn't cost you anything.
No mither and For the people costs you health state.
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@LobbyDodgerLeonidas said:
Wow he got a 3k and he's complaining!!!
He had game today where he lost against 4x MFT and 2x Hope... Would that be better?
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People really should learn what holding the game hostage means...
You are doing exactly same, simply refuse to lose.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481339#Comment_3481339
Then YOU are the one that is greedy and relying on others...
What a paradox, isn't it?
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@JdoHybrid428 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482685#Comment_3482685
Totem spawns did get reworked a year or two ago and are drastically better. But every map released since hasn't had the same treatment for some reason.
No, they are not.
I have been playing for 3 years and they are same or worse.
Only indoor maps have some decent totem spawns.
If you think totem spawns are better, then go check Eyrie of Crows. Some totem spawns are so bad I want to cleanse them myself.
You can have totem like 1 meter next to a generator inside one of those sand pits...
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482796#Comment_3482796
I get a lot of mileage out of Ambush on Pig. You need to use it from a stealth scenario, not at a loop. Most loops, unless they completely obscure the survivors view, won't be cleared with an Ambush, even if it had a shorter charge/cooldown.
Ambush from around a corner before the survivor is aware, basically counters any form of 'hold w', you can hit them before they get a chance to gain any ground from running away, and before they get to a loop in the first place.
Do you know what is an issue with this?
You don't need to use ambush from stealth. You can just stand up and M1. Using M1 from stealth is also more quiet and works for STBFL.
Ambush is loud and you risk SB, but they better not remove it. I love that sound.
What you talk about is 100% from crouch, not ambush.
There is small number of loops where ambush is valid antiloop, but it doesn't work if survivor won't let you go behind pallet and just predrop it.... or they just run away when you crouch, but you can fake it.
I usually get hit not by using ambush, just by faking it and get them to leave the loop...
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482784#Comment_3482784
Not really, BBQ information is at point where you need it most (look for next chase) and it's used only by killers who can use that information (fast movement).
Not true. I use it on Ghostface and Pig, in order to keep tabs on where everyone is. I don't usually need to make it to them that quickly as it still tells me where they are or might be by the time I get there, and if no one shows, I know they're close to the hook.
I'd probably use this Thwack myself, it would be a neat alternative to I'm All Ears.
It would be alternative to I'm All Ears with CD change, or alternative to Nowhere to Hide.
Keeping requirement and having global radius would be alternative to BBQ, but I would still rather use BBQ.
With global range screaming would start to be downside kinda.
It works better when survivors don't know about it...
As 32 m range with CD, screaming doesn't matter that much they know, when you are nearby and it would be counter to distortion.
I would bet 32m range with 40 sec CD would be way more used than hook requirement global.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482757#Comment_3482757
special attacks are generally anti-loop. they're not really suppose to machine gun the survivor unless that is the strength of the killer. I'd say pig falls under that. it's underpowered anti-loop. If pig's ambush was buffed to work properly, it would be around strength of old Leatherface's 1 charge chainsaw without instant down part.
How do you have strength equal of something that insta down without insta down? That's still way weaker version of that.
Don't get me wrong, it shouldn't be equal, but I just don't like that wording.
If you have longer CD than basic attack, then it has to be worth it. Ambush is definetly not worth it. I usually use it only on obsession, because I use STBFL on pig.
It's mostly useless, when you crouch survivor will just holdW away and you can basically use it only on loops where you would have good chance to make a hit even with M1.
Ambush and crouch need buff.
Most special attacks are fine, just Pig is really weak imo.
She gets basically punished for her Traps, where new players don't know how it works and keep dying, so her Kill rate is high even tho she is considered one of weakest killers...