Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485650#Comment_3485650
I doubt those games are asymm.
It's absolutely impossible to balance DBD around top players while making the game fun for regular players.
Why is that? Because top players optimize the hell out of the game. Tunneling, actual gen rushing, optimal looping, optimal pallet dropping, etc etc.
The average player needs like 30 pallets. The top player needs 8. You cannot reconcile the two of those if you balance around the top.
You CAN reconcile them if you balance for the average player and balance specific things for a higher level of play.
Ultimately, it really would kill the game if they decided to balance around the top 1% of players. Zero goofy fun perks. No strong perks. Everything optimal all the time.
No thanks.
BHVR could do things like have map generation be based off of the MMR of the 5 players in the game. This would allow the game to have more resources (like pallets) for lower MMR, and less resources for higher MMR.
And if matchmaking couldn't find a good MMR match for the killer, the map generation could make up the difference. For example, if the 4 survivors are high MMR, but matchmaking couldn't find a similarly high MMR killer, then the map generation could just spawn less resources for the survivors.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485164#Comment_3485164
You know that spirit is my 3rd most played killer at the moment? There most definitely ARE mindgames. You can use directional audio AGAINST survivors.
Many loops are large enough that you can't mindgame, because the survivors would hear the directional audio change well before you reach them.
And if Spirit does "mindgames" on the small loops, she's really just brute forcing with her phasing speed, by doing things like getting a survivor to vault and then phasing to the other side of the pallet before the survivor can vault again. And those loops are generally short enough that the pallet was unsafe, and the killer could have gotten the hit even if they weren't spirit.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484102#Comment_3484102
It also destroyed VHS. Balancing exclusively for the top is a game killer.
VHS was destroyed because the devs wanted to much for the game to be fun for survivors, that the survivors got pretty much every player experience buff that DBD survivors wanted, and killers were usually ignored so that survivors could have more fun.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485126#Comment_3485126
Throwing your mouse across the room to cheese a miss vs inexperienced / low fps killer players doesn't seem like gameplay that is worth preserving imo.
Exactly. Survivors SHOULD want to win a chase because of their skill, and because they outplayed the killer. But when survivors 360, they aren't outplaying the killer at all. Instead, it's the multiple purposely-bad game mechanics that outplayed the killer. How is that satisfying at all, knowing the killer lost to bad mechanics instead of the survivor's skill?
Do survivors honestly think they've outplayed a killer if a 360 works? Do they honestly think their skill is what caused the killer to miss an attack?
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
Bhvr: we promise these updated animations won't change the gameplay at all
Community: okay
Bhvr: changes the movement anyway so it massively impacts gameplay and makes it feel god awful
Community: why
BHVR should have revisited the animations by now. BHVR should change their minds, and say that it’s fine if updated animations change gameplay. We currently have garbage survivor animations, that are missing animation frames, which is why it sometimes looks like survivors are teleporting out of the killer’s PoV, and it’s why survivor movement sometimes looks way more confusing than it should.
Or at the very least, BHVR could just fix the forced short M1 attack bug that can steal hirs from the killer, so that it doesn’t matter as much if the survivor has garbage animations.
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@Akumakaji said:
It seems that there is no middle ground: either the survivors have perfect info on her status at all time, or spirit is overtuned due to her speed and pallets becomming a 50/50 coin toss. Hmm ... maybe if BHVR made her swoosh fade in and out, reliable at times, unreliable at others? A bit similar to Onryous visual fading.
But on a side note, this is a pattern that you can observe all over this game: survivors nearly always get way more info about the power then the killer, and I really hate this from a design standpoint. The killer very often hast just a binary (or triway) information: is the survivor infected or not, cursed or not, oroborossed or not, while the survivots see in crystal clear gradual increments, where they stand, with the killer just knowing when they finally reach the final stage. It removes a lot of the tactical side from the killer and relegates it to a guessing game or just a trivial time waster on the survivors side. Why does the Onryou not know how far her own curse on the survivors has progressed, so that when a survivor gets condemned its kinda a surprise out of the fair sky and 9/10 times you are too far away to get any value out of this; yes, this is kinda addressed (but badly) in the upcomming patch, but it still was designed this way. Same with the TVs, it could have been an interesting decision to see the TV that a survivor has to deliver the tape to and decided if its worth to go over there, but that was never the option.
Or Wesker, who is the host of Oroborus, he has no clue whats going on, same as the host and priestess of a magical super plague. Its actually kinda surprising that Trickster has his laceration meter or that Pig can see the survivors timers. The Singularity situation once again shows, that taking away the control of the killers powers and giving it to the survivors isn't fun. Some killers, like Wesker, have more to their kit then just their infection, and can still have a fun game without that, but there is a reason that only a very small number of people played Onryou this last half year and are trying to invest time into the Singularity. And Spirit is no longer a plug and play power that creates openings, its got a lot of the power given over to the survivors. You can still utilize the Spirits power, but its very frustrating to learn, with to little opportunity to actually gain some propper experience with it. And even then its pretty rough how far the scale has been tipped into the survivors favor. When in doubt, always take away from a killers power and give it to the survivors. My main is Pyramidhead and I am very good at landing shots with him, but daaaayum is he clunky with his sword stuck in the ground. It seems that BHVRs main method of "balancing" things is to make the killers side as user-unfriendly, clunky or frustrating as possible, and thats really sad at times.
Spirit’s original directional audio was a decent middle ground, because it was affected by sound occlusion, which meant the survivor only got crystal clear directional audio when they had line of sight with Spirit.
But now that the directional audio was buffed so that it’s not affected by sound occlusion, Spirit is now worse than most of the other killers at mind games, because most visible killers can just hide their red stain when line of sight is broken, and the survivor might not know where the killer is.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485005#Comment_3485005
Mind games should be based on something. It wasn't that way with old spirit. 0 information = just pure guess. No mindgame is involved. Now it's different. You have speed and you have some information. Spirit can't always "just charge at you", because you threaten her with pallet stun.
Depending on spirit's audio quality, you could even try to a, not go to a pallet at all fooling the killer (if she can't hear you with perfect headset) b, slow-vaulting a window being on the other side (but vaulting makes very unique sound that is discernable with good headset) c, going the opposite direction then I started before killer sees you (works only if killer does not have any headset as steps are VERY discernible). Killer can on the other hand go one direction (make survivor hear the sound on one side a throwing pallet) but double-backing for a hit, guess where the survivor will go and cutting him before he gets there, try to hear exact position and follow him exactly, try to outrun him.
That's MUCH MORE mindgame, then just HA! You don't know where I am, but I know where you are and I am 2x your speed so GGEZ!
But now there’s zero mind games for the survivor, because the buffed directional audio doesn’t get affected by sound occlusion, so it’s always 100% crystal clear. This isn’t “some information”. It’s perfect information of which direction Spirit is, at all times when she is phasing near the survivor.
The only thing Spirit has now is brute force through her phasing speed, which isn’t mind games at all.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484294#Comment_3484294
Mindgames? No it wasn't mindgames. It was pure guess on survivor's side and mindgame on killer's side. So all the benefits (speed and information - because she heart survivor in phasing + scratchmarks) on killer while none on survivor. Thankfully, they nerfed her
What exactly do you think mindgames are supposed to be? If there’s zero guessing at all, then how is it supposed to be a mindgame?
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@Clutzdette_Motel said:
I recently saw an old video that showcased a new movement system including starts and stops as well as turning animations for the survivors, overall the movement looked really smooth and fluid compared to what we had before and what we have now. If anyone can fill me in on why these were removed it would really be appreciated.
We’re stuck with horrible survivor animations, because survivors prefer it when they are missing animation frames, because that makes it harder for killers to follow what they are doing.
So whenever someone is playing killer, and it looks like a survivor is just flat out missing animation frames, it’s because BHVR is purposely giving us bad animations so the survivors can have extra game advantages.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484546#Comment_3484546
Well, but that's also how you beat 3-gen.
You just need more survivors doing this on different gens. Then you will finish gen or killer is forced to commit sooner or later.
And that's part of the problem BHVR needs to fix. The 3-gen problem needs to be fixed for both sides, instead of just being a "nerf the killer only" problem.
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Part of the 3 gen problem are survivors that run away from a generator as soon as they hear a terror radius (or lullaby), and by the time the killer reaches that generator, the survivors are so far away that it's not worth chasing them.
If killers are supposed to chase a survivor instead of just defending an area, they need to be able to actually get into close range chases in a reasonable timeframe, which sometimes can't happen if survivors are allowed to excessively hide or excessively pre-leave generators.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484285#Comment_3484285
How does having information help, when spirit moves at 176% speed basekit? What does having perfect information help against nurse when she can blink at you no matter where you are or what kind of loop you use? What does it matter that you have even wallhacks against C33+alch ring blight when he moves at 230% basekit + you move at only 97% and pallets hardly matter? All the info by far does not mean you win. It just gives a chance at the game
BHVR admitted that Spirit's directional audio is in the game to take away mind games from Spirit, and that's what it does in many loops.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484231#Comment_3484231
It was still possible, in fact it was easier on some surfaces since he didnt have to adjust his camera
I believe it was the Resident Evil mid chapter that "fixed" hug tech since it didnt allow you to start a rush if you were right next to a wall, people soon realized you could just look down to go around this and its still like that to this day
No, you're still confusing the timeline........
1) Blight originally did nothing if he tried to hug tech.
2) When the secondary collision system was added to the game, Blight would just rush in place if he tried to hug tech. This also created an M2 bug, where he would be unable to M2, and he would need to M1 to gain back the ability to M2.
3) When BHVR fixed this M2 bug, that added hug tech to the game. At this point in time, Blight had to look down to hug tech.
4) BHVR secretly buffed the secondary collision system, by allowing it to work without Blight needing to look downwards, and the angles Blight could object slide were super boosted, which allowed Blight to do some seriously ridiculous object sliding.
5) BHVR rolled back the secondary collision system super buffs, and Blight was once again required to look away from an object to hug tech.
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Spirit is unfun, because they nerfed her with the directional audio, then nerfed her again when they super buffed the directional audio.
Spirit can still win games, but that's not what we are arguing. We're arguing that it's unfun for Spirit to have to deal with sound occlusion, and perks that delete survivor noises..... but survivors get 100% crystal clear directional audio that doesn't get affected by sound occlusion at all.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483957#Comment_3483957
As some one who played a ######### tone of Blight at release I can assure you, hug tech was still very much possible with the bugged camera height.
Working as programmed is working as intended
I can assure you that 99% of the time a Wesker that Urobends to get a hit would of most likely gotten the hit anyway. One of the most common places its used is along shack and a good chunk of them have some sort of debris or even the edge of the map around it. So even if you didn't get thrown into said debris along the side he would of either A: Slammed you against shack wall or B: keep going forward and slam you into something else
Sky billy being "theoretically" an advantage is again, just wrong. And btw, I didn't even mention Space Billy which is a whole other can of worms. Just for an example, this is a clip from 2 years ago and this spot in particular I learned to get 99% of the time, alongside several other spots on other maps (Ormond main and some of the hills just to name a couple more)
I'd be down for auto aim to be disabled for the sole reason of proving every one who complains about it wrong. Quite literally been playing for years now and I can't even remember the last time I've been spun. Even on times I challenged myself by using a controller (which btw, I don't use for any other game) I still wasn't getting spun.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483974#Comment_3483974
Trap buffering is when a Survivor runs over a trap because some one else is disarming it. Its literally just input buffering and could of just been thrown into that category when I was explaining them but its more of a known thing on its own.
As for the rest, you're picking and choosing which of these exploits you want. Can't have it both ways.
The secondary collision system didn't exist when Blight was first released, and hug tech is only possible because of a bugfix BHVR applied to the secondary collision system.
Before the secondary collision system was added to the game, Blight would just do nothing if he tried to hug tech. Therefore, hug tech was not possible before his camera PoV was raised.
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The problem with Singularity is that on some maps, there are so many line of sight blockers, that even if the player had psychic powers in real life, and could predict the future of where the survivors will run to, that they still wouldn't be able to tag the survivor with a biopod, because there are often literally zero places the killer could place the camera, where the survivor is in line of sight long enough to get tagged with a biopod.
And when the killer finally gets to a place where it should be able to tag a survivor, then it turns out the walls/objects where you want to place the cameras can't accept cameras because the camera attachment programming code is garbage. Like seriously just tag the floors, ceilings, and interactable objects as ineligible, let everything else be taggable by cameras, and just have the camera face directly at wherever the killer was when it shot the camera projectile. We don't need all this goofy code where it tries to orient the camera based on whatever subtle angle the object texture is facing.
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Toolboxes shouldn't give extra skill chances, because it synergizes too well with hyperfocus and fogwise.
The most powerful toolbox combos need to be toned down a lot. A Commodious Toolbox with spool and swivels should not be deleting almost 20 seconds off of a gen by itself. This doesn't even require a BNP, or any perks to help the toolbox. This is just the toolbox (and yellow rarity addons) deleting almost 20 seconds.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480718#Comment_3480718
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QXTBDGBKHJM3/occam-png.png
Ultimately though, I'll ask you to prove that those people lower their MMR for "better streaming content"
Occam's razor is not the same thing as proof. It's just a guideline for people to be aware of. You're misusing Occam's razor, by claiming it's as good as proof.
And no, I don't need to prove anything. It's perfectly reasonable to question whether or not streamers will make preparations off-stream, so their on-stream content is better, and would therefore be more likely to generate revenue.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480574#Comment_3480574
I live to argue.
But yes, you are missing something. Occam's Razor.
Which is more likely, a streamer with 5K hours who streams DBD for 8 hours tanks their MMR off-stream by playing for another 4-6 hours.
or
DBD's matchmaker, which is notoriously bad, continues to suck.
We already know that the MM is really bad. It makes no sense to blame people for dropping their MMR (which we have zero proof of) when we know the MM sucks.
You really do like throwing catchphrases around, don't you? That's not a correct use of Occam's Razor.
When a player is a streamer, that literally makes money off of people watching their games, then yes, it is valid to question whether or not they spend extra time off stream lowering their MMR, for the sake of "better streaming content".
And WE don't "already know that the MM is really bad". That's a YOU statement.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480385#Comment_3480385
I don't think I've ever heard people cite not being able to find other Survivors as a reason for tunneling.
Tried to argue in good faith, but it just seems like you aren't.
I honestly think survivors hiding is a reason for tunneling, which means I am arguing in good faith.
You, on the other hand, gave up, and are doing the “just spitting out catchphrases” thing, so we’re done here.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480583#Comment_3480583
Momo's streak was all consecutively, iirc.
He then went straight into Oni.
I think he's starting a Wesker one too.
How do you know all the games were consecutive? Do you have proof that games were never played off stream?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480439#Comment_3480439
I don't think you can win 400 games in a row and not be at the top of mmr.
Do we know it’s literally 400 games in a row, or just 400 games shown on stream? Because there is a huge difference, and streamers could be altering their MMR off stream.
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480390#Comment_3480390
It looks like MMR is actually using a 60% win-rate, based on 3k or 4k definition of a win. I'm recording my killer games, using the same killer and it's putting me at a 60% win-rate. I'm getting way more than a 60% kill-rate.
1 data point = data trend proof???????!?!!????!
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Win streaks are meaningless because BHVR refuses to show us the player MMR numbers.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480233#Comment_3480233
I really don't agree.
I can't recall ever thinking that I couldn't find Survivors reliably since like 2018
It really doesn’t matter if you agree.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479990#Comment_3479990
Well, at least one of us is trying to come up with ideas.
The specific examples are irrelevant. The important part is the general idea that killers need basekit help getting into a chase with a different survivor, that are reliable enough for killers to feel like it’s worth the risk of leaving a hooked survivor.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479980#Comment_3479980
So what, 8 seconds of unblockable aura-reading on the entire team or just one Survivor?
And then a 20% Haste until X condition is reached?
Whatever it takes to give the killer the feeling that they have an extremely likely chance of getting into a chase with a different survivor, if the killer leaves the hooked survivor.
Remember that BHVR is expecting killers to leave a hooked survivor, which is a survivor that the killer 100% knows the location of, and there is an extremely likely chance that some other survivor will eventually show up to that exact spot. If BHVR expects the killer to leave that situation, then there needs to be an extremely likely chance the killer can actually get into a chase with a different survivor, as an incentive to leave the hooked survivor.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479837#Comment_3479837
What would sound reasonable to you?
You've already said BBQ wasn't enough.
I don't have specifics, but it needs to help needs to be enough for killers to actually feel like there is real value in leaving a hooked survivor, for killers to feel like they have an extremely high chance they will actually be able to start a chase with someone else.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479809#Comment_3479809
Are we talking just straight up unblockable aura-reading and how big of a speedboost
I don't have specifics, but it needs to help needs to be enough for killers to actually feel like there is real value in leaving a hooked survivor, for killers to feel like they have an extremely high chance they will actually be able to start a chase with someone else.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479789#Comment_3479789
What would you suggest then if you don't want to learn how to track?
Some sort of tracking, and some sort of speed boost, to help the killer get in a chase with a different survivor. If BHVR wants killers to chase a different survivor, there should be some sort of basekit help to do this.
Because if BHVR refuses to help killers find other survivors to chase, then it really doesn't matter how many penalties they stack on the killers, because killers might decide to just continue camping and tunneling. Wandering around the map, looking for survivors that are hiding, is still unreliable and is often a waste of time, and giving killer penalties won't change that.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479727#Comment_3479727
Use your gamesense.
Survivors can't move fast without leaving scratch marks lol
Gamesense isn't basekit help
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479669#Comment_3479669
There are such perks such as BBQ, Floods of Rage, PGTW, etc etc that either help you find Survivors or give you something worthwhile to do while you look for Survivors.
I don't have any issue finding people consistently. Crows, gens, scratchmarks and aura-reading has made Stealth an essentially dead playstyle (some Blendettes haven't caught up yet).
If you wanted to give the Killer a speed boost until they start chase or are within X meters of a Survivor, then I'd be okay with that as long as it doesn't stack with power movement speed.
Those perks aren't good enough, and they aren't basekit either. BHVR has made it clear they want to give survivors basekit help, and killers should also get basekit help. Most of those aura reading aren't even reliable if the survivor is far away, because they could have easily moved far away by the time the killer gets there.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479637#Comment_3479637
Someone who didn't know how to make a decent argument, evidently.
If you want more effective reasoning, here's why.
Tunneling, is for all intents and purposes, a push to remove someone from the match as quickly as possible. Taking all emotional responses out, the idea is to tilt the match in your favor ASAP. If you can get the game to become a 3v1 before 3 gens pop, you are almost guaranteed to win as Killer.
In order to properly incentivize something, the rewards need to be as good or better than what you are trying to dissuade people from doing. There is no reasonable reward that would ever be as strong as tunneling. Even if you were to give the Killer an entire extra gen as a reward, it would still be worse than tunneling. You cannot reasonable incentivize people to not tunnel.
You can, however, punish people for tunneling AFTER you adjust the games balance. If we make the 4v1 less Survivor-sided (which I don't think it's super Survivor-sided currently, especially against certain Killers, so this'll be tricky) and adjust the 3v1 to be less Killer-sided, then I think you could have something there.
That would remove both the need to tunnel and the benefits you get from tunneling.
BHVR could shift this game to move away from camping and tunneling, but they would need to give killers real help in finding other survivors and actually getting in close ranged chases with other survivors. If BHVR does that, then it can create real anti-tunnel and real anti-camp mechanics.
The entire game expectation for killers is just garbage, which is why camping and tunneling are often the best strategies. BHVR expects killers to just wander far away from hooked survivors, and hope they might find other survivors, and if the killer doesn’t find anyone, well it’s just too bad for the killer. And if the killer stumbles across the person they most recently hooked, and there is no other survivor in sight, then the killer is supposed to just ignore that survivor and wander around the map, hoping to find other survivors, and if the killer doesn’t find anyone, we’ll it’s just too bad for the killer.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479605#Comment_3479605
Perhaps I'm not explaining well.
The perks aren't anti-tunnel. The original argument, iirc, was that Killers needed to tunnel to stop gens and that if only gen regression was viable, tunneling would stop.
Who made that original argument???? So you picked a ridiculous straw man argument, and concluded that was proof that killers shouldn’t get anti-tunneling incentives?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479521#Comment_3479521
The idea proposed was that Killers were forced to tunnel if they wanted a chance to win.
Those perks were so strong that you didn't need to tunnel in order to win. They were anti-tunnel perks due to their strength. Or, at least, that's what I thought would happen.
Didn't really work out that way.
That doesn't make any sense. You can't just say perk are "anti-tunnel" because they are strong. Those perks had absolutely zero connection to tunneling.
You created a bad hypothesis, and created a bad conclusion from your bad hypothesis.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472696#Comment_3472696
Fantastic, you want to win.
So do I. Do I have to tunnel and camp to win? No, I do not. Do I do it anyway because it's easy? Yes. Do I recognize that makes me an #########? Yup.
You cannot give bonuses to not tunneling. That's been tried, it doesn't work. Eruption, PR, CoB + Overcharge. 4 exceedingly strong regression perks.
Guess what, still massive amounts of tunneling. I genuinely thought it'd reduce it at the time. I was wrong.
We've tried the carrot, I'm interested to try the stick.
Those perks were supposed to be anti gen rush, because they are gen regression perks.
It doesn’t even make sense to call them anti tunneling perks. They don’t give the killer any help to find a different survivor to chase, and they don’t give the killers any bonuses for chasing a different survivor.
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This is the exact same problem VHS had, where they made sure killers had so much counterplay, and that they were “fair” for the survivors….. that people just don’t want to play those killers.
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@Mandy said:
My concern with having a perk to counteract tunnelling is that it would then be a must run perk - I'd much rather there was something in the base game to incentivise NOT tunnelling as a playstyle first. Just my two cents though.
I really hope that killers get incentives to not tunnel, as in positive reinforcements..... because if BHVR's solution involves adding more penalties to tunneling, then the word "incentives" shouldn't be used, and the word "punishments" should be used instead.
And it would need to be actual incentives, as in helping the killer find someone else to chase, to keep the game tempo steady for the killer... because telling killers they should purposely avoid a specific survivor, even if there are zero other survivors in sight, and expect the killer to just wander around the map looking for a different survivor, is a horrible expectation.
It's just like how BHVR keeps thinking up "solutions" for camping, but refuses to address the real problem, that expecting the killer to leave a hooked survivor, to just wander far away, hoping to find a survivor, is a horrible expectation.
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@jeffkillsyou96 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3477552#Comment_3477552
I never said you can’t ever use perks it’s just lightborn has no counter while every other perk to some certain extent does what part of that do you not understand
Every survivor perk that hides auras, scratchmarks, grunts of pain, or pools of blood, has no counter. And that is a lot of perks. For example, Stridor doesn't counter -100% survivor noise perks, and Bloodhound doesn't counter -100% survivor blood perks.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3477489#Comment_3477489
So Saloon has problematic main building and problematic map size and weak spots. And strong 3 gens if killer camp gens.
All of these issues need to be addressed but yet some people are happy with this map. So maybe even strong SWFs are not problem for killers since they are winning most of games on this map.
The gen placement problem needs to be fixed on both sides. There shouldn't be 3 gens that are super close together, but there also shouldn't be gens that are so safe for survivors (e.g. saloon gen), or gens that are so far away that the killer feels like it's a waste of time to defend them.
There also needs to be a limit on what is considered a 3 gen. Yes, sometimes 3 gens are too close..... but sometimes it feels like the 3 gen definition is "if a killer can defend 3 gens at all, then it's a 3 gen, because survivors deserve at least 1 gen that's so far away that it's impossible for a killer to defend the 3 gens"
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3477438#Comment_3477438
Yes you can bully killer if you have strong SWF on this map. Main building strong enough. But these SWF teams are usually dying because their goal is not to win game. They are just making you content and ignoring gens.
They aren't all ignoring gens though. They can still have 1 or 2 survivors working on gens, because the saloon survivors can use their voice comms to warn the gen survivors if the killer actually leaves the saloon. And because there is so much open space on this map, if a survivor does get knocked down outside of saloon, then get ready for the flashlights, because there certainly won't be any walls for the killer to look at when they pick up the survivor.
There's also the issue where "players should have fun" is a very one sided concept on these forums. If camping and 3 gens are unfun for survivors, then we "need" to fix them. But if bully SWFs are literally spending the entire game trying to make the killer's game unfun.... then that's ok? Why it is considered acceptable for survivors to literally spend the entire game trying to make the killer miserable, just for the sake of ruining the killer's fun? This is on a completely different level than camping and tunneling, because those just are good game strategies that survivors don't like, which means the killer is playing to win, instead of purposely going out of their way to bully the survivors.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
So now devs confirmed they are open for rebalancing maps if they favor one side so much.
This is good, i support this.
But i am just curious will we ever get changes for Midwich and Saloon?
Both of maps are so small which means easy to patrol for killers.
Both of maps have terrible loops. Midwich has 2 - 3 god pallets and that's all. Saloon has strong main build but rest of map is full with terrible pallets.
Both of these maps needs some nerf for make them a bit balanced for survivors. Midwich had highest killrate when they shared data last time. I don't think Saloon is different as well.
I still get sent to saloon a lot by SWFs. They like to hang out on the saloon gen, or the gallow gen, and relay my location to the rest of the team. And the saloon gen overlooks the entire middle of the map, so unless I want to go all the around the outside of the map, the SWF knows everywhere I go.
The main building is also a favorite for coordinated SWF head on plays, because there's often not enough room to avoid the lockers. And boil over / flip flop SWFs like to purposely get knocked down in the saloon's top floor side room, where it's near impossible to hook the survivor if the SWF is waiting by the hooks. Because of flip flop, it's not possible to chase the survivors away from the hooks, so it's just lose/lose for the killer.
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@K_Nottie16 said:
I liked most of the changes for the perks but i noticed that they didnt nerf killer perks just Prove theyself. How funny. I knew one day it was obviously gonna get nerfed but it feels a little out of place when you look at the other perks in this update. There are plenty of killer perks that couldve been nerfed. I think its kinda dumb to nerf a perk because its used so much but this is dead by daylight and thats what happens here. So jolt couldve gotten a cool down but didnt. Even though its the most used killer perk right now. And im not sure if its a bug or a shadow buff but everytime it pops it makes the survivor scream. And no it wasnt eruption im 100% sure its just jolt. They "nerfed" pain res and its still one of the top used perks by killers. They had alot of perks to choose from to nerf for killers but i guess thats being saved for the meta shakeup. Lastly to top it off they took the bonus bloodpoints away from prove as well. Was that really necessary?
Removing hook grabs is a bigger nerf than all the survivor perk nerfs combined.
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There needs to be a line that says…
“Made For This” cannot activate if the survivor is exhausted.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472714#Comment_3472714
Well, the bonus for not tunnelling could be giving aura reading on other survivors if that's your problem. Though, I wouldn't really say that it's hard to find other survivors since you just patrol the gens. Survivors usually get unhooked in the same amount of time I find another survivor and if they get unhooked earlier, I just return to the hook. Tunnelling is strong because it wastes the time of multiple survivors, prevents healing under the hook, and killing a survivor reduces gen and healing speeds.
There are SWFs that use voice comms, and if a killer moves away from the hooked survivor, then the hooked survivor will warn everyone else on the team, and the other survivors will move away from the generators and hide, because they are purposely waiting for the killer to move far away enough for the SWF to get a free unhook.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471746#Comment_3471746
Nope. I'm tunnelling because I play to win. Telling me not to use the best strategy just because I'm winning is like telling players in other games to go easier on their opponents because the enemy team is getting stomped. In games like CSGO, LoL, and Dota, the enemy team will NEVER go easy on you if you are getting crushed. They will just keep pushing their advantage to maximize their odds of winning. It's not toxic in the slightest. It's just playing to win.
The main reason to tunnel a survivor out as early as possible is uncertainty and maximizing odds of winning. Say you have 2 hooks on a survivor and 1 gen is done, it's completely possible that you never see or catch that survivor again until 1 gen. Against coordinated swfs, this is a notable risk since they often split themselves up to hide survivors on death hook and and force the killer to chase survivors that haven't been hooked yet. A killer wouldn't know whether they were playing against a swf or not, so the only way to minimize that risk to do it always. Even against solos, it isn't a certainty that you will catch or find that survivor again, especially on large and strong maps. The play that maximizes odds of winning is tunelling them out at the first opportunity. Also, waiting longer to tunnel survivors out defeats the purpose of tunnelling. The point of killing a survivor early is reducing their gen and healing speeds. The longer you wait to tunnel, the less value you get from tunnelling.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471751#Comment_3471751
They mention as being a potentially effective or viable strategy but they've never outright mentioned how effective it was. It was more so them acknowledging as a strategy but not commenting on its strength.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471770#Comment_3471770
"The problem isn't for those strategies to exist, is that any killer can do them fairly well that they can be super strong against a lot of survivor teams. (not just baby survivors). Imagine if everyone who picked up Nurse or Blight could play them half-decent from the get go."
I don't see why tunnelling being easily accesible is a problem. I also disagree with your argument since tunnelling effectively is closely related to a killer's chasing skills. For example, tunnelling is easy for anyone to do but if a unskilled killer tried to tunnel a survivor much better than them, they would get looped for multiple gens.
"If more killers played in this way every game, then those strategies would be addressed a lot sooner."
Tunnelling is one of the most prevalent strategies in the game.
"I don't think survivors want to remove the effectiveness of those strategies, as people who are not heavily biased know that against strong survivors you need something other than Nurse/Blight/Spirit, but them having no difficulty to do makes them accessible to every skill level and tunneling/camping are a lot more intuitive for players than looping is."
Fairly sure most survivors would want tunnelling completely killed off if possible. Like, do you see any other comment in this thread from a survivor supporting tunnelling?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471865#Comment_3471865
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472182#Comment_3472182
There's actually heavy hyprocrisy in your comments. You mention that tunnelling is a "legitimate strategy" but go on to say tunnelling results in the killer in the killer being boosted in MMR. Why would I be boosted if I was using a legitimate strategy? The reality is that you don't see it as a legitimate strategy. If you really saw it that way, you would treat it like any other skill or strategy and see it as a normal skill in the killer skill set. Think of it this way, looping is a legitimate strategy. Now replace everything you said about tunnelling with looping and it's clear that you don't view tunnelling as a legitimate strategy.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472041#Comment_3472041
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471981#Comment_3471981
I've never hated or blamed survivors for running strong strategies and perks like gen rushing, pre-nerf Dead Hard, and pre-nerf DS. I've always blamed the dev for making them strong and not fixing it. It's the same argument I'm making here. Killers shouldn't be hated for tunnelling since they are just playing optimally. It's the dev's fault for making it strong in the first place. If you've ever played any other competitive game, like LoL and Dota, you would think the same way. You don't blame a person for picking a strong Champion/Hero. You blame the devs for making it strong and ask them to fix it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472045#Comment_3472045
You're missing the point here. As you've said, it is difficult to further disincentive tunnelling. What they need to do is incentivize not camping, e.g. giving bonuses to a killer for chasing a different survivor, something like Grim Embrace. This brings the power level of not tunnelling closer to tunnelling and makes it less necessary for killers.
Giving bonuses is useless. Killers need help getting into a chase with a different survivor, because it’s unrealistic to expect killers to leave a hooked survivor, to find survivors that are hiding in random places on the map.
The biggest question is “what are killers supposed to do, if the survivors are using voice comms, and will hide far away from generators if the killer leaves the hook, because they are waiting for the killer to move far away enough for the survivors to get a free unhook”? ….. Because the answer is “the killer should just stay by the hooked survivor, regardless of the penalties, because it’s a waste of time to leave the hook.
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@HugTechLover said:
I guarantee his rates and stats are not high enough to warrant nerfing, and that’s why he hasn’t been touched. Alch ring and c33 may not be over-performing as you might thing they are.
Yes, at top tier, they seem overpowering, but they do not make blight good. I’ve seen alch ring c33 blights get no hooks in a game.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think alch ring hasn’t gotten nerfed yet because it’s a “win more” addon. It not really going to help Blight against survivors he’s struggling against, and instead it only really helps him against survivors where he is doing so well that he has a high chance of getting that quick 2nd hit.
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472003#Comment_3472003
Dude, I’ve literally accumulated an idle crow for hiding while a killer lingered around one area for too long. There are already plenty of ways to find survivors. And finding them should be the killer’s responsibility. If you were being tracked by a killer would you not try to hide? Would you want to pop out and make it easier for them? Besides, the fact that survivors have to repair generators means they can’t hide the entire game. And killers can see the auras of all unfinished gens. Do a better job patrolling them.
Many people are asking for killers to make bad game decisions for the sake of survivor fun. It’s often the best strategy for killers to camp or tunnel, but survivors want that to change.
Likewise, it’s often the best strategy for survivors to hide, and that should also be changed. The mindset that the game problems should be 100% the responsibility of the killer is awful. Yes, survivors should be punished for excessively hiding. Killers AND SURVIVORS should all be encouraged to interact with each other.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472003#Comment_3472003
Did you ever consider running tracking perks to counter stealth? Like.... Nowhere to hide? you can still get loud notification when the survivor is unhooked.
I think tru3's take on it was funniest. I won't post video clip because it has swearing but at 32:19 in his BVHR is losing the mind video. his comment related to baby killers not needing camping is funny.
If survivors are getting basekit help for anti camping, then killers should get basekit help that are positive incentives for not camping.
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@Gandor said:
Point 3 would make the perk OP. It would allow survivor to get hit, sabo toolbox and get away. That's unfair.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471749#Comment_3471749
It would make very small difference. Provided devs actually don't make sabo 0,5s quicker as OP suggest, he will still not finish sabotage before you hit said survivor again.
If you want to bodyblock twice, you stand under hook until you get hit and then start sabotage without any difference.
The only real difference would be if you tapped hook by accident (like trying to heal under the hook), or if you misjudged your sabo speed and wanted to bodyblock hook right after your hit.
Attack cooldown is 2.7 seconds, and the new change will make the sabo perk take 2.3 seconds.
The more likely scenario is a survivor tries to sabo at the last second, and gets hit out of it, and wasn’t intending on taking 2 hits. If a survivor wants to purposely bodyblock, they should be required to be directly under the hook without doing the sabo action, so the killer has the opportunity of dropping the carried survivor instead of going through 2 attack cycles while carrying that survivor.