Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@tjt85 said:
I t seems to me like they're implementing one solution for two different problems - body blocking to grief players and extreme hiding / refusing to progress the game (which usually occurs when only 2 players are left with no hope of completing the remaining gens). But there really should be two different solutions for these problems, not one.
I'd hate to see hiding as a strategy to waste the Killers time being a casualty in fixing those issues. I'll quite often leave my gen to go hide in a loop, behind a rock or in a bush, because I know it can be just as effective as looping (especially if looping isn't one of your strengths). It seems like there will still be enough time for strategic hiding without gaining crows, but I guess I'll have to see for myself if that's still the case.
Part of the "problem" stems from the fact that you can "win" as Survivor by getting a hatch or gate escape even if your teams dies and you've failed to do your objective. This is actually one of the unique things I like about DBD, since aiming to be the last one standing in a desperate situation is what makes the majority of trials worth playing through.
But I increasingly feel like the devs are trying to push team work on Survivors regardless whether or not it's the smart play. There's still no comeback mechanic for when only two Survivors remain in the trial and therefore no reason to ever touch a gen. So you play more cautiously, hoping the other guy gets found first. Is this what's defined as "extreme hiding"? Maybe, but evading the Killer is really the only thing left to do that makes sense in this situation and now players will be punished for it?
I'd also like to know if constantly dropping and picking up your item to avoid getting crows will be patched out. Is that still in the game or did they fix that already? I've seen a lot of streamers doing challenges resort to this to keep their escape streaks going.
After the new update, picking up and putting down an object won’t stop players from gaining AFK crows.
Survivors only need to repair for about 15 seconds to reset their AFK points. If they are hiding so much that they can’t manage 15 seconds of repairing, once every 2-3 minutes, then they probably are excessively hiding. -
I edited my original post, to add four new concerns to the list. These are concerns I’ve read from other people on these forums:
- A survivor gaining AFK crows when the killer is slugging for the 4k
- A survivor gaining AFK crows when they are legitimately trying to find a hex totem
- A survivor gaining AFK crows when they are legitimately trying to find a generator
- A survivor gaining AFK crows when Oni is in blood rush mode
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936348#Comment_3936348
Sounds exploitable.
Survivors only lose collision for 10 seconds.
And because the game doesn't directly tell survivors that they have 10 seconds of no collision (at least not in an obvious way), the survivors might not be aware that they have 10 seconds to move away.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937162#Comment_3937162
He hasn't lost any ability to do anything tho.
It's not like the sounds are completely muted, you will still be able to hear it.
No I can't! I can't hear footstep noises over the chase music. Sound occlusion completely makes them silent.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937151#Comment_3937151
Still doesn't make them weaker nor unplayable.
Victor will still be an absolute monster in chase that can snowball to a win pretty quickly.
I could see the argument for it being annoying, that's a very valid opinion but being really hyperbolic about it and saying it makes Twins "unplayable" is really disingenuous imo.
Strong anti slugging builds are what make Twins unplayable, bugs are what make Twins unplayable. Not chase music.
Victor losing the ability to reliably avoid pallet stuns, seems like a massive nerf, because it's so punishing when Victor gets pallet stunned. It means the killer wasted the entire time Victor was running around, and Victor can't be summoned again until the penalty cooldown is over.
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@RJoyYourJoy19 said:
So yet another system to secure that 4k? Slugging for the 4k is one of the biggest issues in the game and they somehow keep making it worse and worse for survivors with every patch.
Would it be better of the AFK point gain was paused, if only 2 survivors are alive, and 1 of the survivors is in the dying state?
Because that would stop the 4th survivor from gaining crows, when the killer is trying to slug for the 4k.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937102#Comment_3937102
Oh no, I never said Victor had no counterplay
Just that you can't really 'loop' him. He's too fast even without addons for that. Most survivors either go for pallet stuns, keep using really strong windows/one way pallets or if he's far from charlotte jump in lockers
…And Victor being able to easy hear survivor footsteps, makes it a lot easier for him to avoid pallet stuns, because Victor can easily hear if the survivor kept running a loop, instead of stopping just out of line of sight, because they are trying for a pallet stun.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937043#Comment_3937043
No it's easy to chase with Victor because he moves super fast and once you're close enough the survivors are forced to try and start dodging otherwise it's guaranteed damage. The sound was nice but it was hardly the main focus point lol
When you chase with Victor, you never have to loop? You just always get to the survivor when they're out in the open, and the survivor has zero counterplay?
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936909#Comment_3936909
Twins will still be playable and incredibly strong regardless.
The majority of their strength comes from the simple fact that Victor is by definition unloopable under the majority of circumstances and no amount of chase music will change that whatsoever.
I play Twins quite a bit and sound isn't that important considering how fast VIctor moves. By the time you first see a survivor as Victor you're mere seconds away from being in hit range anyway. By the time chase 'starts' you're probably already charging pounce.
You're being incredibly hyperbolic saying Victor having chase music completely ruins the killer and makes them unplayable. You're just wrong
That's not how it works at all. Survivors can often get to a loop, before being hit by Victor, and one of the main benefits or being able to hear the survivors through line of sight breakers, is you could tell if they were camping a pallet, or if they continued to run the loop. Or in general, Victor could tell you which direction the survivor went, so Victor can try to cut them off by going a different direction.
It's easy to chase with Victor because he doesn't have chase music. And the reason why he worked like this for years, is because even though Victor is strong at chase, the killer is still required to spend extra time switching back to Charlotte, and walking back to the survivor. This change makes Victor weaker in chase, but still makes him inefficient at actually hooking survivors, and still doesn't address the time wasted when survivors hold Victor hostage. It basically means that absolutely everything Twins does, is clunky and unsatisfying.
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@RJoyYourJoy19 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936833#Comment_3936833
Good. There's already no looping Victor and he moves at an insane speed. He needed something to tone him down.
If the chase music hides Victor's noises, then the chase change is going to make everyone unhappy. The zero chase music also helped survivors know where Victor is.
If survivors can't hear Victor's noises over the chase music, then Twins are still playable. But if survivors still get to easily hear Victor, but Victor can't easily hear survivors, then the killer will be a garbage waste of time to play as.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
I think the other reason is the new afk system. If Victor is chasing you, then the only thing preventing the system from giving you AFK progress is chase: you can't do gens for 15 seconds, or heal someone with the killer actively behind you.
Otherwise, there's an edge abuse case where the killer can force a survivor to be considered "AFK" just by chasing them with Victor long enough, and that isn't the intention behind the AFK system. Clearly, that is "participating in the match".
Interesting. That is probably the reason.
If that is the reason, it would be better if there was an AFK Crow rule, that being near Victor fox X seconds, resets AFK points (which also removes all crows). It's better to change an AFK rule, than it is to completely change the way a killer power works.
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@xerox8521 said:
According to the PTB Patch Notes Victor can now start chases with survivors:
Victor is now able to trigger chases with Survivors.
That implies to me that A) you can get bloodlust as Victor. B) Vault locations will be blocked after vaulting 3 times while in chase and C) Perks like PWYF can gain stacks.
Seems to me BHVR wanted to add a indicator on the HUD to let other survivors know that Dwight for example is being chased by Victor.
Can we get clarification on my assumptions?
Victor is awful now. The biggest advantage of Victor was being able to hear survivors through walls, but now that he is forced to listen to chase music, it's way way harder to follow survivors.
I think I got a bot to entity block a window, but I forgot to record it, and it doesn't really matter because it doesn't change the fact that gaining chase music is a HUGE nerf to Victor, and being able to entity block windows would be a very small thing in comparison.
This feels so much worse than survivors holding Victor hostage. It's like the entire "Victor is good at rushdown" theme is ruined, because I'm often stuck guessing where the survivor is, instead of knowing exactly where they are.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936607#Comment_3936607
Yeah I'm one of those folks who is always on here annoyed about survivors who don't do anything, but from what I've seen from people playing on the PTB, the crows are currently way too harsh. Imagine running around trying to find Ruin, for example, and you're just getting crows. I actually wouldn't mind if it kicked in x amount of minutes into a game because I find most survivors are engaged at the start of a match, it's late match that they tend to give up.
I'm really interested in any videos people might have, where they're actually trying to do stuff, but the crows are happening too quickly.
Maybe hex totems actually are a problem, and some people really need like 5+ minutes to find them. Then maybe the solution is that if a survivor is affected by a hex, their AFK point speed gets heavily reduced if they are traveling a very large distance threshold (which is what they would be doing if they were looking for hexes). And the distance threshold is important, because if a survivor is affected by a hex, but they're just hiding in a locker, then they're obviously not really looking for hex totems.
Or, maybe all hex totems need to show their aura in at least a 16 meter radius, or maybe they need to be loud like boons, or maybe something else needs to happen so that survivors aren't spending 5+ minutes looking for them. I would be ok with hexes getting nerfed, if it meant the game could have a fair AFK crow system that punishes excessive hiding.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936392#Comment_3936392
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936393#Comment_3936393
I really hope that this thing will be adressed, for example like this:
- If a player is standing completely still within a 1,5 meter radius of a second player also standing still, the AFK timer progresses at a 200% speed.
I wish the bodyblocking solution didn’t require the survivor to gain AFK crows, so that survivors wouldn’t need to ever gain AFK points faster than 100% speed.
Because that just seems stressful for survivors. What if two survivors jump into adjacent lockers to avoid BBQ… would they gain AFK points at 200%? What if two survivors are working on a generator and it becomes blocked… if they just stood there and waited for the generator to become unblocked, would they gain AFK points at 200%?
The game knows what a distance threshold is, since they’ve been using it for the AFK crow system. The game could just say if a survivor hasn’t moved over a distance threshold for 45 seconds, and hasn’t made any interactions for those 45 seconds, then they lose collision until they either move over the distance threshold or they make an interaction.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936372#Comment_3936372
Wait, so even while standing still next to the killer, it still goes down so slow?
That's really dumb.
I think so. I'm assuming the game does this so that survivors can hide near the killer, and gain AFK points at 50% speed.
But I need to check if the game has a special rule for the killer being extremely close to the survivor (close enough to bodyblock), even though my intuition says they probably don't have a special rule for this, because if they did, then they probably could have easily made a better solution for extreme bodyblocking. And even if a special rule did exist, survivors would still be able to bodyblock each other up to 100 seconds (10 seconds grace period + 90 seconds at 100% AFK speed), before the bodyblocked survivor loses collision.
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@fussy said:
Honestly super happy to see it, because it's very similiar to what I suggested a long time ago:
So many rare, but extremely annoying situations are solved by this.
The new AFK crow system already does that, except that survivors can't see the progress bar.
DBD can't show survivors the progress bar, because if survivors saw a progress bar, they could determine if undetectable killers were near them.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936348#Comment_3936348
To be fair, the player should already lose Collision after receiving 1 Crow. Being bodyblocked for 60 seconds is already way more than any strategic bodyblocking can achieve. No need to wait an extra 30 seconds AND get noise notifications (if being blocked by another Survivor).
It's actually worse than that, because if the killer is bodyblocking a survivor, the survivor is considered near the killer, and therefore gains AFK points at 50% speed. This means the absolute worst case scenario is the killer is bodyblocking a survivor up to 190 seconds (10 seconds grace period + 180 seconds of AFK points at 50% speed), before the survivor gets 3 crows, and loses collision.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936023#Comment_3936023
According to the patch notes…
- Disconnection penalty points decrease as you play matches without disconnecting
(previously decayed at the rate of 1 point per day).
It doesn't specify how many matches we have to play for the penalty points to decrease. So I'm really confused on what is meant when they say it's based on the last 20 matches played. Myself and others have tried asking for clarification, but haven't gotten any yet.
My guess is the DC penalty time is based off of how many of the last 20 games were considered "Go Next".
For example, let's pretend C = completed game and R = Ragequit game. Below is an example list of 20 games….
RRRRR RRRRR CCCCC CCCCC = DC penalty based off of 10 "Go Next" ragequit games. And if you completed the next game, you would have…
RRRRR RRRRC CCCCC CCCCC = DC penalty based off of 9 "Go Next" ragequit games. Notice that the first game (a ragequit game) got bumped off the list, because it is no longer in the last 20 games.
This means the maximum DC penalty would happen if the last 20 games were all "Go Next" games.
- Disconnection penalty points decrease as you play matches without disconnecting
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@screamingsimon said:
i love the ptb EXCEPT for the 10 second afk timer. i feel like this completely defeats the ability to go for saves, i.e crouching near teammate as they go down and waiting for the killer to pick them up to get a stun. 10 seconds is barely even enough time to switch a song on my playlist as i am playing. even 30-45 seconds would be better but still far too short in my opinion… 10 is not enough and will ruin the ability to go for stealthy saves which will only result in more slugging! if somebody is afk for 60 seconds it is not going to compromise the entire game.
Good news for you! The patch notes were written super awkwardly, and it actually takes at least 60 seconds to get a crow.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934108#Comment_3934108
As I just said, things can happen. Internet can hiccup, the game can crash, servers can crash, and we get penalized for it. Those who don't play often and don't constantly DC suffer from those things that are beyond their control. And I don't see why waiting out penalty resets is a bad thing. Shouldn't taking a break be a good thing if you're genuinely frustrated with the game?
Waiting out penalty resets is bad, because we should care about the percentage of games a player is ragequitting, as opposed to the frequency a player is ragequitting.
Waiting out penalty resets is also bad, because it doesn't actually encourage players to stay in a game. Instead, it encourages survivors to ragequit whenever they want, and just come back later if the DC penalty is too high.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933015#Comment_3933015
I'm actually pretty sad about this one.
This is one of the few areas of the game where, even in solo q, the best choice for the survivor on hook is to let go and give the last person the chance at hatch.
It's also one of the most sportsmanlike plays you can make, to gracefully lose while being a team player. The fact that they didn't account for this in the "go next prevention" is a gigantic miss.
In fact, shame on BHVR for taking the option to be a team player away in this situation. You can definitely code around this one scenario while still targeting "giving up early".
The patch notes say the Attempt Unhook ability is unlocked when there are only 2 survivors left in the trial. So survivors will still be able to let go and give the last person the chance at hatch.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935314#Comment_3935314
I don‘t have a problem with survivors doing gens and being so good at hiding that the killer doesn‘t find them while searching them for ages. This can be as good as looping or even better. The only thing that is annoying is when some survivors barely ever touch a gen, where I agree with you, but to be fair in some situations killers camp gens so much that you are unable to touch them.
If a survivor feels they are “unable to touch” a generator, then they are obviously excessively hiding.
And it’s not fair if one of the survivors is trying to repair generators, and is placing themselves at risk, and the other survivor is hiding because they think it’s too dangerous to repair generators.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935235#Comment_3935235
I complained about hook grabs being removed and I still think hook grabs were a great mechanic. I complained about the anti 3 gen mechanic affecting surge and eruption negatively, but the gen kick limit was also needed to be fair.
The new mechanic from what I‘ve heard triggers too easily/fast and affects hiding as a mechanic too much. The only time hiding was a problem is when some people do not do gens and rat somewhere. Every other form of hiding was fine.
Also this anti hiding makes the situation of slugging for the 4 k even worse and even more frustrating. Like the survivors have no chance to do anything in these situations already and behavior decided to make it even worse for them.
Excessive Hiding should also include survivors that really aren’t trying to make a decent effort to repair generators.
Some survivors will excessively hide, but also repair generators for a few seconds before running off to hide again. Those survivors aren’t making a solid effort to repair generators. That should still count as hiding.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935231#Comment_3935231
Your us vs them doesn‘t help. I‘m just agreeing to disagree here.
It’s not “us vs them”. It’s about showing a precedence that when a previous mechanic nerfed some perks, the majority of people felt that was fine, and the mechanic was more important than a few perks.
This is the same situation. The hiding mechanic is more important than a few perks that might get nerfed from its existence.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935226#Comment_3935226
Maybe but nobody does that and my point is about the crows spawning faster nerfing this perk not about the thing you describe.
The anti-3 gen mechanic nerfed a bunch of generator perks, because those perks counted toward the kick limit.
So it should be fine if some survivor perks get nerfed by the anti-hiding mechanic.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935220#Comment_3935220
The counterplay for head on is to bait survivors to jump out and miss their head on. The crows shouldn‘t be a thing in this situation and especially not get buffed to make head on deactivate even faster. I‘m not talking about the anti hiding stuff, that‘s probably fine, but head on doesn’t deserve this nerf.
That just wastes time. If the killer stands completely to the side of a locker, spams the space bar, and strafes toward the locker, they’ll counter head on much faster.
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@Langweilig said:
Can you please look at head on with the anti hiding changes. Crows deactivates this perk and the killer can just wait in front of the locker to easily grab you out of it as soon as the crows appear. This shouldn’t be a thing, especially when the crows appear faster.
If the killer knows you’re in a specific locker with head-on, they can just go completely to the side of the locker, mash the space bar, and strafe towards the locker. The survivor won’t be able to react to that with a head-on.
Also, if a killer knows you’re in a specific locker with head-on, do you think head-on should force the killer to wait a long time for crows to appear, and have zero counter play besides that?
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934042#Comment_3934042
I mean I can only speak from my own experience, but you can't hear his footsteps from far away. Just from close on. Also, a killer with anti-loop and great map pressure would probably be too strong if he could also reliably grab survivors off of gens or sneak up on to them like Myers in tier 1.
I’m not expecting gen grabs. I’m used to most killers making some amount of noise. For example, Wraith and Ghostface are stealth killers, but they make enough noise that survivors can hear them at close range.
What I am expecting, is for an undetectable killer to have a larger than zero element of surprise. I sometimes feel like Springtrap’s stealth is just marginally better than Monitor and Abuse slapped on a 24 meter terror radius killer.
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Huntress is better at 1v4, because very few people try to aggressively bodyblock her, because she recovers so quickly from a melee-ranged hatchet.
Springtrap’s hatchet has so much cooldown and recovery, that he’s weak against aggressive bodyblocks unless he has very specific addons equipped, which makes him extremely addon dependent. Meanwhile, I still run double uncommon addons on Huntress, because her basekit power is so strong that she doesn’t need expensive addons.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934042#Comment_3934042
It's on theme really. We hear breathing and footsteps. It'd be odd having a robotic killer that made no mechanical noise
Imagine how well that idea would work in the games Springtrap is originally from…
Springtrap's theme is supposed to be jump scares. He should be able to have mechanical noises, without them being so loud that survivors can easily hear them through line of sight breakers and loud generator noises.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933997#Comment_3933997
I mean, I think it's kind of fine. At least balance wise. He can still be kind of scary. Balance wise I think it's important that you can at least hear from a bit of distance.
It really doesn't feel like "a bit of distance" though. It feels like a lot of distance. He's bad at jump scares. And that should matter.
This license is supposed to bring a lot of people to the game, and most people would expect licensed jump scare killer to be good at jump scares. He's worst as jump scares than over half the killer roster. Almost everyone else could get better jump scares if they equip an undetectable perk, because they aren't purposely loud.
And we don't even know if this is a game balance decision, or if someone from the sound department felt it would be "more immersive" if he made loud mechanical noises, so people could constantly remember he's mechanical.
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@ad19970 said:
I can't say the actual range, but from playing a few matches, it doesn't seem that small. Which to be honest is a good thing. I think if you want to sneak up on to a survivor with the undetectable status effect, you have to teleport to a door that's a bit further away from the gen that survivors are working on. That should work better since the undetectable status effect lasts quite a bit.
Do note that Springtrap also makes walking sounds though. So survivors can hear him from a bit further away as well.
Yeah. This killer pretty much fails to be a jumpscare killer, even though it's pretty much his actual identity in the other video games he's in.
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@Choaron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933485#Comment_3933485
No way devs would be this clueless about their own game (r-right?). It clearly was meant as a nerf to the killer.
BHVR has been re-evaluating survivor bloodpoint gain, and have been overall raising the amount of bloodpoints survivors are getting.
It’s entirely possible this Victor change is just a quality of life feature for survivor bloodpoint gain.
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Is Victor gaining the ability to enter chases, for the sake of game balance, or so survivors can get more bloodpoints?
One of the biggest benefits of Victor is that he wasn’t forced to listen to purposely loud chase music, that hides important survivor noises.
Being able to easily hear survivors through walls, is much more important than Victor being able to entity block windows, and this chase is a huge game balance change for Victor.
Because of this whole thing is being done for the sake of survivor points, then can we have a reduced volume chase music for Victor, so he isn’t getting stomped with a major disadvantage from this update? -
It's a useless buff. That extra 25% regression is literally 1/16 of the normal survivor repair speed.
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932914#Comment_3932914
They already detailed how it will work and you're overcomplicating it, it's not multiplicative, it's static.
Think of it like there are 5 "map slots" that the players can influence through offerings. By default, all five slots are just "go to a random map". Not a specific realm, just "any map in the game". But if one player brings a map offering, then one slot becomes that map offering, so it's a 20% chance to get that realm, and 80% chance for a random map. If four players bring a unique offering (since multiple of the same offering still only fills one "map slot", then they have an 80% chance to get one of the four realms they brought offering for and 20% chance for a random map.
Sounds bad, but remember that Sac wards will now be stronger than they've ever been now that all map and game altering offerings are hidden. If the killer brings a sac ward, survivors can't know that, and thus can't dodge it unless they're willing to dodge oceans of matches. On top of that, even if survivors bring 4 map offerings and killer doesn't bring a sac ward, having an 80% chance to get one of four realms is still way less obnoxious and powerful than guaranteeing a realm with a single offering. And they may still get that 20% chance for a random map.
I think we will be seeing far, far less map offerings after this update, they simply aren't as impactful and reliable as before which is about time. What I think we'll be seeing a lot of is shroud offerings from survivors, since it's very important to spawn separate. Maybe a mix of shroud offerings, hatch offerings and map offerings, forcing the killer to counter only one of them.
It sounds bad, because some killers are way worse on outdoor maps, and some killers are way worse on indoor maps, and the map offering change is almost completely removing a killer's ability to choose "outdoor map" or "indoor map".
…Meanwhile, survivors aren't affected anywhere near as much.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932938#Comment_3932938
Sure, but again, we've got to put this in context compared to what it is right now.
Right now, survivors can guarantee actively beneficial maps on their own.
After this change (if it works the way either of us assume), they can almost guarantee not getting a detrimental map, which isn't the same thing, only in a full SWF.
I don't know, a full SWF burning those specific map offerings post-change doesn't seem that scary to me. Autohaven and MacMillan have okay maps in, and I've got a decent enough chance of getting those over Badham or Crotus Prenn. Plus, I'd be able to burn my own offering for an equal chance (compared to theirs cancelling mine now), and I'd still have Sacrificial Ward available. It also doesn't really matter to me how survivor-sided their tactic is long-term, because I'm only facing them in this one game. The chances for that game are the ones that matter, right?
It'd probably be better for the game for map offerings to do something else, but what you're describing doesn't sound that bad to me.
It's more of an annoyance that if killers specifically want indoor or outdoor maps, they only have a 20% chance of succeeding. Maybe they want an outdoor map because their killer's power is awful on indoor maps. Maybe they want an indoor map because they have a stealth build that is awful on outdoor maps. But with a 20% chance, they probably aren't going to get the map type they want.
And it's annoying because BHVR still won't balance maps depending on the killer being used. For example, Ghostface is really awful on big open maps, and there really should be increased line of sight breakers when Ghostface is being played, so that he wouldn't feel like he's already fighting an uphill battle just because of the map he's playing on.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932914#Comment_3932914
You're not necessarily wrong, but I think it's very very relevant that "a map offering they want" has to be split between four map offerings, some of which were made significantly less strong for the survivor side. Sure, they've still got the classic realms with solid maps, but for genuinely survivor sided stuff… it's just Gideon's and Badham they can rely on here, right?
Eyrie and Garden of Joy are still survivor sided, but if they burn those offerings, they might get Dead Sands or Greenville Square, which aren't.
I think this is still a significant improvement even if it does work that way.
Burning a Withered Isle offering is still overall survivor-sided, when viewed as a long term strategy, because Garden of Joy is way more survivor-sided than Greenville is killer-sided. And burning a Withered Isle offering still allows survivors a better chance to avoid maps they absolutely don't want, like Haddonfield or Midwich.
Autohaven Wreckers, Springwood, Crotus Prenn Asylum, and The MacMillan Estate, would be an example of what a SWF could burn as a team, where the survivors are trying to avoid bad survivor maps as much as possible.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932914#Comment_3932914
It's still only a slight chance though.
Plus wards are still in the game if you're worried about it, Killers still have a means to cancel all of them in that hypothetical scenario.
People will probably use them less since they aren't guaranteed anymore though.
59% is a slight chance? It's more than a 50/50 chance.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932892#Comment_3932892
It was 20% first time they mentioned it, so I would presume there's just a 20% chance of each map offering being rolled, and a 20% chance no map offering is rolled?
If the killer also brings a map offering, I'd assume that would mean the game is guaranteed to be on one of those five realms. That's something worth paying attention to once the PTB drops though, for sure.
I think that means that if each survivor brings a separate map offering, they have a 1 - (0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8) = 59% chance that one of their map offerings is picked.
That would still mean the survivor side can still have a map offering they want, over 50% of the time.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932865#Comment_3932865
Do you mean duplicates of the same offering, or survivors each bringing an offering for a different map?
Duplicates of the same offering are what they mean here, based on how they talked about this the first time it was mentioned.
I mean 4 survivors each being an offering for a different map.
For example, for the sake of discussion, let's pretend a map offering has a 30% chance of occurring. If each survivor in a 4-SWF brings an offering for a different map, would there be…
- A 30% chance that one of the 4 map offerings happens, and a 70% chance that none of the survivor map offerings happens?
- Some whacky math formula like 1 - (0.7 * 0.7 * 0.7 * 0.7) = a 76% chance that one of their map offerings happens?
- Some other math formula, where the survivors collectively get over a 50% chance that one of their map offerings happens?
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"Map offerings no longer stack their effects"
Do we know if this only applies to duplicate map offerings? For example, if 4 survivors each bring a different map offering, do they have a much higher chance than if only 1 survivor brought a map offering?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932748#Comment_3932748
Wouldn't that then lead to the survivors ya know surrendering and giving an anticlimactic ending with 4 slug bots?
Sometimes. But if it results in a higher MMR, then I'm doing this.
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932695#Comment_3932695
Those 4 percent moments are 4 percent chances out of 100. If you’re losing games so badly that a 4 percent destroys you to where you “have to slug” you were probably already losing the match more often than not anyway. You’re not “stuck” slugging anyone you’re just wanting that full 4K rather than being okay with getting a 2K or 3K. That’s on you.
It's still a fact that most of the "exciting 4% moments" are totally preventable by slugging, and they encourage killers to slug.
As long as survivors have the ability to self unhook on the first hook stage, it's optimal gameplay for killers to slug them instead of allowing survivors to get an "exciting 4% moment".
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932583#Comment_3932583
I’m also not saying that the goal is to get rid of it 100 percent. What I am saying is that this is going to unfairly punish genuine players and as someone above said, it removes so many great 4 percent moments that happen in this game, many that have turned the tide of matches and made them more exciting. So we’re making the game less exciting now to punish a minority of the player base who again, are likely still not going to contribute to the match in any meaningful way by being kept in the match.
I really hope this doesn’t happen but right now it doesn’t look promising
Genuine players are currently unfairly punished when teammates Go Next, and there will be less genuine players unfairly punished after Go Next is in the game, because the main reason why Go Next is so popular is being removed from the game.
Those "great 4 percent moments" are the reason why I'm stuck slugging in a lot of games. I'm stuck bleeding people out, because if I place them on a hook, then they might 4%, but if I bleed them out on the ground, then I'm 100% guaranteed to win.
Those "4 percent moments" are mostly just punishing killers that are trying to be nice to survivors, by hooking them instead of securing their win by slugging.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932560#Comment_3932560
Anything that guarantees a self-unhook - so yes, Deliverance, Wicked, and the anti-camping measures - will still work the same as before.
Does that mean a SWF can bring 1 luck offering, and the SWF can Go Next if one of them dies early?
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932558#Comment_3932558
Yeah and this is an issue cuz I’ve had that happen to me and I’ve seen plenty of players complain about it as well. I’m just not a fan of reducing this game down to “it’s a 1v4 where the match is “over” when two people are left.” What’s the point of playing the game at that point? If the last survivor still doesn’t have a chance at an escape for that last Hail Mary then why bother? It takes away the tension and excitement of the game if my match is over when two people are left.
And people complain about “going next” and this kind of stuff is why people do it. Because there are so many mechanics in this game where as soon as one or two things happen people see the match as being “over” so they figure why bother? This is encouraging that.
Also the go next prevention is still gonna penalize genuine players more than the bad ones because yeah they can’t take themselves out on first hook anymore but as soon as they get unhooked what are they gonna do? Nothing. Run at the killer, stand there and let the killer down them, alt tab out and walk away while they bleed out. People who decide they’re not gonna play the match out are not going to be forced to play a match that they decided they don’t wanna play, so they’re still not gonna contribute to the match. Maybe they don’t go afk to avoid a DC penalty, but I’ve seen people just run around the map, spamming wall vaults, throwing all the pallets or just cleansing totems and opening chest to kill time until the killer takes them out. Not contributing to their team in any way.
People have said this here plenty of times but until they address the reason for the go next it’s not gonna change anything. Yes a small amount of people go next because they’re just mad they got downed first but that’s not the majority of the playerbase. And now making a mechanic that increases the chances of ending the match in the killers favor at a 1v2 scenario, effectively removing any ability for a last ditch comeback, is just gonna increase the “go next” mentality. I’m interested to see how people react when killers are waiting in these 15-30 minute queues for a 5 minute match when the match is over at a 1v2 or even sooner when everyone insta abandons for a 4 man slug at 4-5 gens.
Lastly it’s interesting that survivors are more and more having to equip perks to be able to engage in certain styles of gameplay. We have to equip perks to prevent slugging, prevent camping, prevent tunneling, now we have to equip perks to be able to take a genuine shot at a 4 percent. Meanwhile killers still get basekit tunneling, camping and slugging. Those tactics take zero perks or add ons to be effective.
A big part of the Go Next problem is that survivors have a quick and easy way to ragequit, that bypasses the DC penalties. The upcoming Go Next solution absolutely makes that harder.
Zero people are saying the goal is to 100% get rid of absolutely everyone in the universe that wants to Go Next. The goal is to reduce the percentage of games where this happens.
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@PolarBear said:
Massive update, excited to see the buffed perks and especially Vecna. Looks amazing.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932536#Comment_3932536
I'm sure slippery meat will eventually be changed (along with up the ante and luck in general) but until then this is still excellent.
Also no one will go into the trial with 1 less perk just in case they want to go next.
I've seen people on these forums that heavily defend Going Next, and I honestly believe they often Go Next. I'm sure some of them will give up a perk or offering, if it allows them to Go Next more often.
Edit: this is especially true if 1 luck offering means all 4 survivors get the ability to self-unhook. There will be SWFs that absolutely will do this, so that the SWF can Go Next if one of them dies early.
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@MaddieMage said:
So I’m ALL about the go next prevention. But restricting 4 percent changes to only being allowed with perks or luck offerings removes all those times when someone was able to 4 percent when the match was nearly lost and made it so the survivors were able to reset and stage a comeback. This is basically saying once you’re on hook you’re just there and until a teammate can get to you, IF they can, since slugging everyone out is the new meta.
Four man slugging is still a huge issue in this game so now when killers go for full slugs which tends to happen when there’s 1-2 gens left, the chance to 4 percent and make a comeback is gone unless we waste a perk slot.
I don’t mind using perk spots for certain kinds of gameplay but equipping a perk for the “chance” at a 4 percent and not a guaranteed 4 percent is a waste imo. So now everyone has to equip deliverance and hope that they’re not the first person hooked so they can get that save and get value from their perk?
Honestly this was my fear with go next prevention: That is was going to unfairly penalize genuine players just to punish the bad ones. And this does penalize genuine players and takes away their last ditch effort to get an escape and that happens quite a bit in my matches.
Also the mori update is going to penalize survivors who run unbreakable. If the killer can just simply hook and go right back for the instant mori, that takes away their chance for the survivor to use unbreakable/soul guard to pick themselves up while the person on hook is still struggling to buy them time. Whose idea was this? Lots of gamers are running anti slug builds lately to counter the slugging meta that the devs encouraged even more with the finisher mori, and now you guys are making it easier to cancel out any ability to counter a slug and try to make a comeback.
We learned from the survivor abandon button, that most people don't care about rare scenarios.
When survivors got an abandon button that immediate shows up when the last survivor reaches the dying state, I didn't see a bunch of survivors say "what if I had unbreakable, and my teammate abandons before I can use it"??? The vast majority of survivors were absolutely fine with getting their instant abandon button, even if there were rare scenarios where the game "really wasn't over yet".
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- "Removed the option to self-unhook on first hook stage unless they have one of the following equipped:
- Slippery Meat perk
- Up the Ante perk
- A Luck offering
- "
…Those things should be removed from the game, so that people that want to Go Next, don't use them as an excuse for why they self-unhooked.
People are absolutely going to say "I wasn't trying to Go Next, I was trying to get value from my Slippery Meat perk".