Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021660#Comment_4021660
Wrong!! (does that make my argument better?)
Anyway, because I think arguments actually need reasons and not just explanation marks, I'll continue
1: If its known as the most popular complaint, why do you need an additional survey for it? As I said in the post, if we're truly being fair, killers should wait around for years for this survey to verify what was being said everywhere else before any action is taken.
2: You've gone from arguing a few days of the last PTB was plenty of data, to saying data is not valid because of 22 questions there is one that leans toward the survivor experience more than the killer.
3: You continue to insist that the game is made up of two sides of players when that is not even close to what the survey is doing, nor do you have any evidence that is even what the player base is made of (compared to players who play both sides).
4: You have no evidence or argument that there is a killer complaint anywhere close to the popularity of camping and tunneling.
The survey was invalid because it wasn't properly representing both sides of the game.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021657#Comment_4021657
Calm down there, I didn't say any of that.
All I said was that gen tapping wasn't "slightly modified" it was removed completely. Which is factually correct.
What exactly is you point then?
Why should we care if gen tapping was completely removed, if it was part of an update that was overall way more survivor-sided than killer-sided?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021542#Comment_4021542
Thanks, looks like some things have been moved around that could be randomized. I've spent so much time on this, let's dive into the differences-
'Character perks are unbalanced' has been split into survivor and killer options (so we have the option for each, I'm sure complaints will die down)
None of the above and clearing storage space get more clearly separated.
'Too many bugs and cheats' has been split into two options.
The collecting currencies choice has disappeared, though I think this has been changed to 'the progression feels too tedious'
The introduction of new features has been removed
'Player communications are unfriendly' got 'in game' added to it for clarity.
Changes to existing features has been removed
Verifying files was made its own in step 1 (though I feel like I saw that might have been true before, in which case it would have been redundant)
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So a couple of things that had two parts got split into their own section, some options got separated for clarity. But we have a survivor and killer option, so I guess the survey must be good now.
Wrong!
Both sides of the game should have their most popular complaints on the survey.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021629#Comment_4021629
Gen tapping taking a couple of extra seconds is not significantly different.
Uh, no.
Gen tapping was completely deleted and removed. It is currently physically impossible to stop regression during chase unless the killer actively allows it.
That's what the complaints for "gen tapping" were in their entirety: people stopping for a tenth of a second to stop regression while in chase.
That is completely, 100% gone due to anti gen tap.
Gen tapping was removed as part of the anti-3-gen update, which overall nerfed killers way more than it nerfed survivors.
Killers had the 3-gen strategy massively nerfed, AND some of the killer generator perks got massively nerfed, AND Skull Merchant got a large nerf because of it.
It's so absolutely ridiculous that killers got so many nerfs because of the 3-gen update, and you want to claim that the removal of generator tapping is somehow more game changing than all of the killer-related nerfs combined in that update.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021414#Comment_4021414
I recently realized that I hadn't actually remembered to uninstall the game since I last quit, and when I came to the box asking for additional feedback, I ended up writing an essay that spanned nearly the full length of my computer screen (so, to the BHVR people reading the feedback forms, now you know who sent that particular one in). And, you know me, most of my complaints were what you would consider survivor sided!
Even with a supposedly survivor-sided set of options, the bulk of (and the most helpful bit of) my complaints were in that additional text field. I can express that certain things are bugging me, but it's through filling out that text field you get helpful feedback on why they're bugging me, which is the real important part of the feedback.
But it's really not the most helpful thing, when the survey is being used to gather the most popular choices, and the most popular choices being escalated for game balance.
The "Other" selection will almost always lose in a popularity contest, when compared to the direct choices in a survey. Therefore, both sides of the game should be properly represented in the exit surveys, if they are being used to drive game balance.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021464#Comment_4021464
This whole survey "issue" is like watching an entitled child complaining and crying that they didn't get anything at someone else's birthday party. Except in this case, the entitled child actually was given a present and also got the birthday party cancelled at the same time, and still thinks it's somehow unfair. FFS.
That's what makes it more annoying for me. After all of the BS from this year alone, we're supposed to drop everything for one question on a survey that nobody even cared about for months? Because it's so important, and definitely not because there's a bone to pick with anti-tunnel/slug even after it was pulled and we're getting nothing.
The one question on a survey that most people DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED, until BHVR literally said it was being used as a justification of the phase 2 changes. Yes, the survey does become more important AFTER we learn it is being used to drive balance changes.
And it's massively disingenuous to say survivors are "getting nothing" when you're fully aware there is going to be another PTB with modified changes. This isn't like the AFK crows, where BHVR literally pulled everything and left killers with absolutely nothing for literal months, and refuses to tell us if they are happy with the AFK crows.
Do you see how that is different? When the AFK crows got massively nerfed, that was it… just radio silence from BHVR for months. When the phase 2 changes got reverted, we get constant reassurance there will be at least another PTB with modified changes, and perhaps multiple PTBs with modified changes.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021550#Comment_4021550
You mean, she got the nerfs that she deserved, to not be greatly overtuned anymore.
No. I mean she was nerfed so much that she not worth playing anymore.
She is super unfun to play as, when the opponents are a coordinated SWF, because she is really weak against coordinated bodyblocking.
She’s also unfun to play as in 1v1, because she often needs to keep switching forms to break pallets. She would be much better off if she could break pallets in head mode, and was no longer able to float over the pallets.
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Krasue got overnerfed. She’s not worth playing anymore.
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@Mandy said:
Using the different tiers of Bloodlust is something that has been discussed, in the PTB we'll test out T1 and see where we're at, so many changes can be made before things go Live so will definitely be looking out for the feedback around it.
This is the most frustrating part of the process. Bloodlust 1 is 0.2 m/s, which means if a killer walks for 30 seconds, they only get an extra 6 meters of distance. And it takes less than 1.5 seconds to travel 6 meters.
It’s basically saying killers can save 1-2 seconds of time, if they avoid tunneling.
It honestly feels like BHVR wants to give survivors the strongest phase 2 buffs that is possible, but they also want to give killers the absolute weakest phase 2 buffs that is possible.
The PTB was considered to have unacceptably weak killer incentives, and BHVR’s response is to make the incentives even weaker? I don’t understand the logic here.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021406#Comment_4021406
I didn’t even know the game had an exit survey, until BHVR said the phase 2 changes happened because of the exit survey results.If anyone should be furious, it should be survivors. For years survivors have been saying that these issues are going to cause people to leave the game. And now BHVR is like 'actually, these issues cause people to leave the game'. Yeah, that's what people have been saying and they've still slow walked the changes.
And it’s not “one single line”, it’s the fact that the entire survey was rigged. If a survey is massively survivor-sided, then of course the survey results are going to be survivor-sided.It wasn't a vote. Using terms like rigged doesn't make sense.
A lot of people who exited the game complained about tunneling. You've said earlier that the tunneling and camping is clearly a survivor sided option, did the killers who left accidently click the tunneling and camping box?
And they didn't even say it got the most selections. They say its consistently in the top three to five issues. Again, its not a vote.
This is one of the places the complaints about the survey fall apart. Even if there is an option that they were missing, this doesn't change that lots of people uninstalling selected the tunneling and camping option. How would adding things to the survey that are meant to be overtly killer sided have changed it? You'd still have lots of people exiting the game complaining about an issue (excessive tunneling and camping) and any company would be worried about such a thing.
The survey had survivor-sided results because the survey was rigged to be survivor-sided.
If the killer-sided options were directly in the survey, then the results could have showed that both sides of the game were having issues, and both sides need to be addressed.
And that’s the real actual reason why a lot of people are against the surveys being fair for both sides of the game. If the surveys were actually fair for both sides of the game, then it might result in less time spent making survivor-sided changes to the game, and more time fixing issues on both sides of the game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021350#Comment_4021350
PS. If somebody says "there is an option where you can write down your opinion" Yeah… these things never work because there is no algorythm which is efficent enough to count these opinions.
I'm pretty sure BHVR's staff are capable of reading.
The survey is still rigged even though it has an “Other” option. People in general are more likely to select options that are directly in the survey, especially if that involves a simple mouse click, and the Other option involves typing.
This isn’t up for debate. It’s how surveys work. Anyone that has had to conduct surveys for academic work, should have learned this fact.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021388#Comment_4021388
This is an awful lot of manufactured outcry over one, single line:It's intertesting - this survey has probably been around for quite some time, potentially it has changed forms. No one has ever complained about it before (I feel like inevitably someone, somewhere has, but I've never seen it). And people certainly take time to complain before they leave the game, but no one popped onto say 'and by the way, the exit survey is survivor sided'. It's people who haven't uninstalled a game complaining about a survey that no one who has uninstalled complained about.
I didn’t even know the game had an exit survey, until BHVR said the phase 2 changes happened because of the exit survey results.
And it’s not “one single line”, it’s the fact that the entire survey was rigged. If a survey is massively survivor-sided, then of course the survey results are going to be survivor-sided.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
This is an awful lot of manufactured outcry over one, single line:
Excessive tunneling and camping.
Which says nothing about which side of the tunneling and camping you're on. Especially since you can pick other options, like "gameplay is repetitive".
People are deliberately reading it as
"[I'm tired of my opponent choosing] excessive tunneling and camping"
But we've also heard from killers for years now that people (claim to) also feel:
"[I'm tired of feeling I have to choose] excessive tunneling and camping"
It's already written as a "survivor" or "killer" line.
People have been claiming they feel forced to tunnel for years, which is another way of reading this line (unless you're just trying to spin it as dev bias).
So, imo, this problem is either looking for outrage, which is status quo for the people starting the fire here, or people have been lying about "being forced to tunnel". Both options are being disingenuous.
Are you honestly trying to claim that “excessive tunneling and slugging” is EQUALLY likely to be killers sided as it is survivor sided?
Like, for reals you don’t think the vast majority of people that selected that choice from the perspective of a survivor?
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020891#Comment_4020891
If your argument is so strong, I don't know why you keep having to make things up to support it. In my opinion.
It's showing a double standard.
- Someone claims a survey is "for both sides" and "fair", as long as it has an Other "option where you can write down your own opinion"
- This person refuses to agree that it would be ok if the survey was filled with killer-sided choices, as long as it has an Other "option where you can write down your own opinion"
- Therefore, this person doesn't actually believe the Other option makes a survey fair
- Therefore, mentioning that a survey has an Other option, doesn't actually mean anything
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021257#Comment_4021257
Literally, no. That's such a massive jump. You take my 'you're skipping over' and don't actually go back to the earlier posts where I explain it. Like with your earlier misquoting its misrepresenting an argument instead of engaging with it.
Let me try and walk you through it
1: There are pretty close to an endless number of possibilities.
2: Asking about too many issues dilutes the survey and decreases the amount of answers you get
3: You have to use your other existing data to narrow those possibilities down for what you are surveying
Of course you can create a good survey that gets an idea on player opinion. It might even be this one. You don't have that data. None of us do. We have no way to evaluate what they used to determine these questions, to what degree this is a general survey or targeted towards specific possible actions, or what other data they have to deal with other questions of player satisfaction.
What I'm saying is its foolish to say a survey is good or bad without that data.
Nope, that's not going to work either.
This is supposed to be an exit survey, which means it's supposed to apply to everyone that is exiting, regardless of their favorite role.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021157#Comment_4021157
This whole "no one could possibly know anything" tactic isn't going to work.Who said that? You're arguing with a strawman.
You're basically trying to say that no one can possibly make a good survey that cares about both sides of the game, because it involves an "endless number of possibilities".
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021110#Comment_4021110
Nope. That isn’t going to work either.Sometimes I wish I just had the confidence to declare things without actually addressing the points the other person made.
Exit surveys are meant to focus on the issues that actually causes a player to quit a game, but they can’t do that if the survey choices are rigged towards one side of the game.You're just skipping everything about other data sources they might have because it disproves your argument. There are an endless number of possibilities that might cause a player to quit a game. Any set of options will inherently omit some possibilities and too many possibilities will harm the value of the survey.
People that uninstalled because they think the killer role is unfun, deserve to have dedicated choices in the survey for the most probable reasons why they think the killer role is unfun.Why is this group more deserving than people who uninstall because of cosmetic options, or general game length, or dislike the music, or don't think their favorite license is adequately represented, or whatever reason?
Or more deserving than survivors who quit because they hate a certain killer, or they don't like doing gens, or they hate stealth killers, or they don't think there is enough item variety?
And how exactly is it going to make the killer player feel better if a reason is included for killers but it isn't their own?
Nope. Not going to consider that either.
This whole "no one could possibly know anything" tactic isn't going to work. Unless you want to give 100% definitive proof for absolutely every claim you make on these forums, it obviously isn't a standard you expect for yourself.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021071#Comment_4021071
Not beating the 'I just don't want survivors to even be able to complain about tunnelling' allegations.
Which people in this thread are saying that “survivors shouldn’t be able to complain about tunneling”?????
People keep saying BOTH SIDES should have dedicated survey choices. Both sides means survivors would STILL have a dedicated choice for tunneling, but killers would ALSO have dedicated choices for things like “generator speeds are too fast”.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021011#Comment_4021011
Yeah, I really don’t think you understand how data collection works at all.Given this and prior discussions, right back at you.
If “the game lost its horror feel” ended up being a top choice, BHVR could have released a more focused survey with in-depth questions, and potentially free-text responses.You're presuming that this survey is the starting point of the data collection. They have ten years of player feedback, surveys, fog whisperers, these forums, etc. The options that are listed might very well be the more focused survey you are discussing.
But saying “they don’t have any way to gather info”, just shows you don’t understand how this works at all.I do understand what it means to misquote someone by leaving out context to misrepresent their understanding of an issue.
You leave out how I say "on people leaving the game". Sure, they have lots of other surveys and resources about player opinion and nowhere have they ever said those are irrelevant or that the exit survey is the only thing, or even the primary thing, they use to make game decisions. But an exit survey is meant to focus on the issues that actually caused a player to quit the game.
Nope. That isn’t going to work either.
Exit surveys are meant to focus on the issues that actually causes a player to quit a game, but they can’t do that if the survey choices are rigged towards one side of the game.
People that uninstalled because they think the killer role is unfun, deserve to have dedicated choices in the survey for the most probable reasons why they think the killer role is unfun.
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@Vess said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020992#Comment_4020992
That would be a perfect world solution, but I feel also it would never happen without a more tight communication with the team. I feel like the team do read those topics here on the forum and I don't blame them they don't respond in most of them considering how are emotions flowing in them in negative way, but also it make the community voice here depended on what DEVs filter from our topics - and that isn't perfect.
It's still better than trying to do everything in the same survey.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020911#Comment_4020911
The fact is it should be on there to give clean data on reasons of uninstall which in turns gives healthier balance changes to address issues on BOTH sides.But balance issues aren't the focus of the exit survey. DbD has balance goals and they have actual data on that. They don't have anyway to gather info on people who are leaving because the game lost its horror feel, or people who are playing something else, or that they don't like the graphics, etc.
Yeah, I really don’t think you understand how data collection works at all.
If “the game lost its horror feel” ended up being a top choice, BHVR could have released a more focused survey with in-depth questions, and potentially free-text responses. And if that survey isn’t enough, they could conduct interviews to have conversations with people about this topic.
But saying “they don’t have any way to gather info”, just shows you don’t understand how this works at all.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020993#Comment_4020993
That is completely false.Which part?
And the survey would have been better that way.That's pure speculation. You have no way to know if adding the options you listed would have detracted form them receiving feedback on other issues that are more of a reason that people leave the game.
Nope. That’s not going to work.
There could have been an initial question asking if the uninstall was because they were unhappy with playing as survivor, playing as killer, or playing as both roles. And then the survey could have just only giving the survey choices relevant to that answer.
That is how effective surveys work.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020975#Comment_4020975
For reals, if the exit surveys didn’t include any options for camping, tunneling, or slugging… and then BHVR said those things obviously aren’t a big problem because they weren’t popular responses in exit survey data… you would have been fine with that?Whether people like it or not is not a reflection of whether it is an effective survey or not. You're arguing that if the shoe was on the other foot people would complain, thus that makes your complaints valid because of a hypothetical.
The purpose of an exit survey for a game is to try and get a general idea for why players are leaving the game. That means the creators need to limit the options to the things that are the biggest issues that aren't otherwise obvious (i.e. people being upset about perceived balance issues is basically a given).
Is it possible they are missing an issue? Sure, I doubt they'd even deny that it is always a possibility. But its also possible they put the options you suggest it would just take away from space from the more general options preventing them from getting an effective survey.
And for reals, are we supposed to believe that if the exit surveys were all killer-sided reasons, you would have said “it’s ok, because survivors could write it the reasons why they uninstalled”?There's two survivor sided questions, one of which is an extremely common complaint and frequently given as a reason for why people quit. The majority are about general gameplay feel issues. You're trying to make this a killer and survivor player thing, the survey primarily seems to be focused on overall game feel which is a more universal concept and not to the specific role people are playing.
That is completely false.
BHVR absolutely could have released surveys that contained both the popular survivor-sided complaints AND the popular kill-sided complaints. And the survey would have been better that way.
I'm not saying that any of the survivor-sided choices should be removed, so survivors would still have the option to make the exact same complaints as they did before. It's just asking for the killer-sided choices to ALSO be clearly and directly in the survey.
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@Vess said:
I do agree that the survey should be improved, especially that many of those options are just empty points without any obvious solutions. However I am surprised that some people think (in this topic and the one before with the suggestion of survey improvements - I did read both) the point choice system is better than the empty space where you can freely describe your issues to the people that want to resolve them. For me that should be the most important part of the survey, because how can someone make your problems go away, when you won't share them in full way?
Some examples would be:
Perks are unbalanced. Someone tick it and what now? There are so many perks in the game, do they mean we should re-balance them all or some? Should we guess what perks? This lead to no problem resolving, but if you describe what perks and why are behaving this way. Also there is a large number of people doing the same - now we are getting somewhere.
Changes to existing features. Again! What features? Should we guess here? Or do you mean all? No solution without describing your issue.
Killer powers or addons are unbalanced. The same story like with the perks.
And yes those are all the original survey examples, there are even more there and the point of my post is to show it don't matter what side you prefer and feel is mistreat here. It also don't matter if you have 100 options for every side if they are just empty slogans and you don't want to share what you feel was your true problem. People that tick options that say nothing really just make themself still suffer from their problems.
Because ideally this would be a multi-step process:
Step 1: Release a survey to figure out what topics should be addressed
Step 2: After you figure out what topics should be addressed, release another survey to go into more depth on each of those topics.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020771#Comment_4020771
During the PTB discussion weren't you arguing that BHVR would have data we didn't? Now you're on team bad data collection.
BHVR has been conducting surveys for awhile (not to mention all sorts of other feedback avenues), I suspect they have taken the most common reasons they've heard and simplified it down.
Even if there are substantial numbers of killers quitting the game, and even if they aren't taking the time to fill out the option to explain their reasoning, you still have lots of players selecting 'tunneling' as the reason they are quitting the game. They have lots of complaints about an element of the game, even if somehow BHVR has totally missed a large amount of players quitting for a different reason, it doesn't change why the players left because of tunneling and the need to address it.
Yes. These are two completely different scenarios. Whether or not enough PTB data was gathered from a PTB, is completely separate from whether or not exit surveys are rigged to be survivor sided.
And for reals, are we supposed to believe that if the exit surveys were all killer-sided reasons, you would have said “it’s ok, because survivors could write it the reasons why they uninstalled”?
For reals, if the exit surveys didn’t include any options for camping, tunneling, or slugging… and then BHVR said those things obviously aren’t a big problem because they weren’t popular responses in exit survey data… you would have been fine with that?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020779#Comment_4020779
Nor does it ask why survivor players uninstalled.
It asks why you uninstalled, irrespective of role.
So if you are a killer player, you can tell them why you uninstalled.
Which of the following contributed the most to you uninstalling Dead By Daylight?
- Generator speeds are too fast
- playing against a SWF is unfun
- Hook denial (i.e. pallet saves, flashlight saves, hook sabotages) are unfun
- Certain survivor perks are unfun
- Certain survivor items or addons are unfun
- Other (Please specify)
Does that mean you think the above survey is fair, because it's not asking why killer players uninstalled, and instead it's irrespective of role? And if you are a survivor player, you could just tell them why you uninstalled?
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020771#Comment_4020771
Context is important:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KPRRNFUH2NUV/20251025-164718.jpg
There is a dialog box at the bottom where you write in anything that isn't listed above (aka "None of the above").
Even you tried to paint it that slugging was mentioned and it wasn't. So it's not a complete list. Additionally, there are several Killer complaints in there. What do you think "character perks" are referring to? Or "matchmaking time"? Or "unfriendly communication"? Or "griefing" and "trolling"? Even unbalanced Killer powers can mean that Killers feel too weak.
Personally, I think it's an incredibly open-ended survey and just because a couple questions have a Survivor slant, that doesn't prevent you from explaining your beef without limitation. I'm inclined to lean more toward what @Firellius was saying, that it might be due to more Survivors quitting and that data being more valuable to them. And if it's not? Who cares because those phase 2 changes were pulled 48 hours after Killers deemed them too problematic. So who won out in the end?
Does that mean you would have been fine if the survey had a bunch of killer-sided choices like "generator speeds are too fast", but had zero survivor-sided choices, and survivors could just choose "None of the above" if they wanted to complain about tunneling?
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020748#Comment_4020748
Did they actually say that? Because the reality is worse. Despite the exit survey having an option for tunneling and camping (slugging isn't a checkbox), they still decided to take an incredibly soft stance on it when it came to addressing them.
BHVR literally said one of the reasons why the phase 2 changes are happening, was because things like tunneling and camping were some of the most popular selections in the exit surveys.
…The exit surveys that had rigged questions. Popular survivor-sided choices were in the above survey, but popular killer-sided choices were not in the above survey. Of course, the survivor-sided problems are going to look more popular and important, if killers literally couldn't select the popular killer-sided problems.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020526#Comment_4020526
Second, there are no issues killers have listed on the uninstall survey, so if they are uninstalling then the developers would have no way of knowing what their grievances are.
The only questions that don't apply to both sides on the survey is "My friends don't play this game anymore" and "Excessive tunneling and camping". You could argue "In-game communication is too limited" as well, but other games in the genre allow players to communicate with everybody so that's a bit of a toss up. The rest are about atmosphere, perks/powers, balancing, grinding, updates, etc. That includes very specific Killer complaints like matchmaking, cheaters, griefing, and people being mean in trial and in chat. Not only that, the question right below it is a dialog box that allows you to write what made you uninstall in your own words.
Not to jump down your throat on it, but this really is a nothing burger.
If the survey questions didn't have any choices for camping, tunneling, or slugging, and then BHVR said "camping, tunneling, and slugging obviously can't be a problem because they weren't popular choices in the surveys", would you think that would be fair?
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Does this mean that BHVR can't make changes on a cosmetic-by-cosmetic basis, and they can only make changes that affect all the cosmetics at the same time? Because the unwanted toy cosmetic got changed yet again, and it's still way worse than it used to be.
Like, it is possible for the new cosmetic, and the unwanted toy cosmetics, to all look good at the same time? Why does the right arm want to float itself near the middle of the screen? I can't even awkwardly angle the camera downwards, so that I can pretend to see the horizon level at that y-axis part of the screen.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020512#Comment_4020512
I refer to a specific killer complaint as a sob-story and a woe-is-me. There's plenty of other, valid complaints, but that is not one of them.
It's not even being used as a complaint, it's fielded as a counter-argument.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020526#Comment_4020526
Yeah, I misspoke. What I meant to say is, it's not an amount that has prompted BHVR to investigate.
A specific killer complaint? This game is balanced around the existence of tunneling. Recognizing this fact isn't a "sob-story".
There's zero reason for killers to purposely make bad game decisions for the sake of survivor fun, when there's zero expectations for survivors to purposely make bad game decisions for the sake of killer fun.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020483#Comment_4020483
What exactly changed for killers in the 6.1.0? the faster weapon recover and break speed and less speed burst for survivors? survivors still can get to the next loop or pallet so does nothing, increase gen times to 90 seconds gen are still going faster forcing killers into tunneling & camping styles so nothing changed there, bloodlust trigger time reduce again does nothing and the perks changes either been reverted, nerfed or rework to not worth running anymore
This is why I really don't care for the 'killers tunnel because the game's too hard!' sob-story.
Because prior to this patch, killers actually tunnelled less, and they certainly didn't trot out this woe-is-me spiel whenever someone threatened to care about survivor gameplay.
It's only AFTER killers got regression basekitted, got their action speeds increased, got 10 extra seconds on gens, got the on-hit sprint reduced, that killers began arguing that the game was so damn hard that they had no choice but to tunnel!
This objectively made the game easier for killers and it caused a noticeable increase in kill rates.
But if you think none of it made any difference…
Why not revert it? Gens back down to 80 seconds, killer action speed reduced, no on-kick regression, longer on-hit sprint… Shouldn't make a difference, right?
How is anyone supposed to believe you care about both sides of the game, when you refer to killer complaints as “sob-story” and “woe-is-me”?
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@ImperatorHaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020431#Comment_4020431
Killers are only penalized after 45 seconds if they remain within the radius of a downed Survivor. This encourages Killers to either hook the Survivor or rotate to chase someone else.
If a Survivor is intentionally trying to bait a slug, the Killer can slug them, then simply leave the radius to avoid the debuff — then the Survivor must either wait for help or recover on their own. Which really doesn't help their team because now someone has to heal them or they are down a man on gens until they can self-recover.
The ‘punishment’ only applies when the Killer chooses not to hook within the set duration, and Killers already have a guaranteed way to hook: hook the Survivor they just downed within 45 seconds. This still leaves enough time to break generators, destroy pallets, or chase another Survivor in the area.
So if there is only one hook in range, and it’s currently broken because of the Breakdown perk, how does the killer hook the survivor?
Where is the guaranteed way to hook that survivor?
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Killers shouldn’t be punished for slugging if the survivors forced the killer to slug.
If the killer is going to be punished for slugging a survivor, then they should get a guaranteed way to hook survivors. That would ensure that survivors are only slugged for long periods of time, because the killer chose to do this.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020364#Comment_4020364
I find this survey 0 productive tbh
What do you think a productive player uninstalled feedback survey should look like?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020364#Comment_4020364
Did it occur to you that it's possible that they're not having a killer exodus but they are having a survivor exodus?
If a player quits the game because they think the killer role is unfun, then their voice deserves to be heard too.
But instead, we get rigged surveys that make it seem like survivor-sided issues are more popular and important.
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@tes said:
Don’t feel personally anything about such questionaree. As they are supposed to I assume
Did you feel personally for the official surveys, that listed multiple survivor-sided problems, but sometimes listed zero killer-sided problems?
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If you were a professional game company, that was literally making a stream to show your customers that you are competent and capable of making good plans for the future, then I would expect you to log in BEFORE the stream's starting time, to fix any issues that might occur.
Like for reals, log in before the stream starts, and check if the audio and visuals work. And make sure no one's microphone is doing some weird echo thing.
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019795#Comment_4019795
Are you serious? There is anti-swf, anti-bully-squads, anti-everything as well for killers. Not that killers actually have a valid reson to unisntall despite being bored of winning.
Here is one of the sruveys….
Which one of these choices is clearly anti-SWF?
Which one of these choices is clearly anti-bully squad?
Which one of these is clearly "anti-everything as well for killers"?
And your last sentence is exactly the problem here. Your whole idea that survivor problems are real, and killer problems are fake. When the survey questions are rigged like this, then of course the survivor-sided problems seem overwhelmingly more important.
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The survey questions were rigged to be survivor sided, so the data is invalid.
We have multiple choices that only apply to survivors, by zero choices that only apply to killers. Of course, complaints about killer strategies are going to be the most popular results, if the questions are rigged like this.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019469#Comment_4019469
I'm just going to point out that, if one of the most common reasons for uninstalling the game is tunneling, and then you immediately pull the changes and push out effectively nothing meaningful...
That is the opposite of bringing players back to the game who leave for this reason.
You're actively signaling to those players that "you left for good reason, we aren't going to meaningfully address this issue".
Or it means the survey questions were rigged, and they didn’t properly list all of the popular reasons why someone would uninstall the game.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019702#Comment_4019702
It was one survey if I remember correctly, and given how the surveys on things like limited time cosmetics, linked sets, event modifiers, and so on were handled, I'd take it with a grain of salt. Speaking personally.
But when BHVR says killer strategies need to be fixed because of exit survey results, and the exit surveys are rigged, then "take it with a grain of salt" doesn't work.
Instead it's "killers are getting nerfed because of rigged survey questions".
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019638#Comment_4019638
We don't know what the survey looks like. It might be rigged to have a bunch of survivor-sided reasons, but not enough killer-sided reasons.
I remember seeing an official survey before, where it asked to rank unfun things, and survivor issues were all clearly listed, but I didn't see anything for what killers might find unfun.
…And at least one of the surveys was rigged to be survivor sided!!!!
Survivors get to say "Killer powers or add-ons are unbalanced" and "Excessive tunneling and camping"
Killer don't get to select anything bad about survivors. Where is the "Survivor items or add-ons are unbalanced", or "generator speeds are too fast"?
How on earth is BHVR supposed to gather data about killers being unhappy, if the surveys are rigged against killers?
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@cburton311 said:
I took it to mean, that the top 3 reasons for uninstalling were as listed. Every other reason was an insignificant portion of the uninstalls.
We don't know what the survey looks like. It might be rigged to have a bunch of survivor-sided reasons, but not enough killer-sided reasons.
I remember seeing an official survey before, where it asked to rank unfun things, and survivor issues were all clearly listed, but I didn't see anything for what killers might find unfun.
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I really want map-specific colors.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
It's because they're reducing the time between placing Drones too.
Currently it's 8s Undetectable with a 10s cooldown, leaving a 2s Gap where you don't have Undetectable.
It's going to 6s Undetectable with a 7s cooldown, leaving a 1s Gap instead.
6 seconds is way worse than 8 seconds.
With 8 seconds, the killer can activate stealth when the survivor is outside her terror radius, and then walk all the way to the survivor while undetectable.
With 6 seconds, the killer can’t stop the survivor from seeing a visual terror radius warning, unless monitor and abuse is used.
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@GeordieKiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019484#Comment_4019484
In short it doesnt
15 sec bloodlust and bp bonuses as incentives they are useless they took 10 steps back on this
im still trying to figure out how the feedback was clear to much handholding for surviviors in the 1st versions made devs go ahhh to much handholding for killers lets get rid of something that would be useful like aura and gen regression and give them useless bloodlust.
all they had to do for killers incentive is gen regression map wide with total damage and not current for each unique hook and maybe aura aswell that is a REAL incentive not this pathetic bloodlust and BP bonus
and before anyone says ohh you havent tested it in PTB we were right to call it out the 1st version on how bad it is before PTB and this is the same again and i bet if there isnt an outrage like the 1st version it will go through to live and game will get worse not better.
I don’t like gen regression as a reward for not tunneling. If BHVR wants killers to chase someone else, they should give killers REAL help to actually find and get to another survivor.
Like in 2v8, where there is extremely reduced tunneling, but a lot more aura reading to help killers find someone else to chase. As killer, I don’t care at all that it’s much harder to tunnel in 2v8, because I have so much free aura reading, that I can easily get into a chase with someone else instead.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019455#Comment_4019455
The data we use, is not that survey but the survey that pops up when you uninstall the game.
The problem Is BHVR absolutely refuses to fix the issues on both sides of the game.
They keep saying “slugging is bad”, but refuses to help the killer avoid hook denial strategies like pallet saves or hook sabotages.
They keep saying “camping and tunneling is bad”, but refuses to address excessive survivor hiding, or actually help killers find a different target to chase.
Just look at the latest livestream. Everything was aimed towards helping survivors. There were zero issues with piling good things for survivors, but the killer side got absolute garbage for incentives. How is extra bloodpoints supposed to help the killer spread hooks for that game?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019435#Comment_4019435
I just started doing this as killler yesterday. I'm writing down my matches and how many abandons and DCs occur, along with match outcome. Then I'll compare them to my 30 day stats after that amount of time passes. I'm also noting these random escapes that's were abandons showing up on recent match history. Those I'm really curious about their impact on my own stats. There's no apparent rhyme or reason for them either, except that if two people abandon, one gets the escape icon and one gets th DC one.
My stats change everyday despite there being either an abandon or a DC (or both) in every match, so I think personal stats for killers are mostly unaffected. But I have no idea about my MMR.
I'd like to try the experiment using abandon as survivor but I don't know if I want to screw up my stats. Not using the abandon and not DCing probably makes me rare amongst accurate stat holders. I don't want vanity stats.
The survivor scenario could be done in a much more boring way, where the survivor continues watching games after they are sacrificed, to see if one of their teammates abandons the game afterwards.
But the easiest way is having a SWF test it, to guarantee multiple survivors are trying to press the abandon button.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019318#Comment_4019318
If you don't use the abandon button or DC, I guess your personal stats are accurate? The global stats don't seem to be, though, if that much data is tossed, and the silence on this post is indeed deafening.
I think someone would need to test if the abandon button throws out the game for everyone.
Example 1: Survivor A gets sacrificed, then Survivor B abandons the game. Does the game get thrown out for Survivor A?
Example 2: Killer sacrifices 4 survivors, but the 4th survivor abandons before being sacrificed. Does the game get thrown out for Killer A?
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This isn't the first time this has happened though. Sometimes the stream is supposed to start, and we get a 30 minute countdown timer instead.
And if there is a major delay because of a technical difficulty, they could have communicated that on Twitter, or switch the stream to a sign saying "technical difficulties, please wait", instead of just having people sit there for 20 minutes wondering what is happening.