ChaosWam
ChaosWam
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I've resorted to Nurse and on anyone else, Slugging until it's fixed.
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I could argue the same thing about Made For This but here we are
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Haste VS Haste as far as I see it, I'd have more empathy if not for MFT.
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@UndeddJester said:
The polarisation of MFT is actually staggering. The fact it is so polarising should indicate why a game that is fundamentally a game of tag should avoid prolonged haste.
Survivors maintain 3% isn't a big deal, it costs a health state to gain which is a significant risk, and is needed by survivors to compensate for the loss of healing the recent healing nerfs have imparted, and is an answer to the prevalent issues of camping and tunneling. Survivors look at it as a small buff that helps them succeed a little more often.
Killers maintain that the 3% is a big deal that extends chases in the most simplistic way possible, can only be countered by specific killers or perks, and widens the gulf in the killer roster so those at the bottom that are already struggling are even further behind.
Watch any streamers on DbD and survivors are laughing at how good it is, and Killers are getting very annoyed the moment they touch an m1 killer. Each extra loop an m1 killer has to take, is a loop further behind Nurse, Blight and Spirit they go.
Prolonged haste is a problem element. Every other instance of haste has a condition that you can't always control. It may or may not be something you want to use at that moment, but tough, you have to sacrifice for it. Prolonged haste is something you never want to not trigger, once you have it, its just a straight up benefit.
I'd love to see MFT be a strong survivor perk that helps vs. Camping/tunneling/slugging killers, the endurance on pick up effect has potential for it to be that, however that isn't what it is. Campers won't chase you, and Blight, Nurse, Wesker, are gonna carry on tunneling and slugging and not care about your haste. Meanwhile it's a perk that for the most part extends chase vs. Weak chase killers to simply waste their time trying to down you to buy more time for gens...
Back to the original point, you should never advocate for prolonged haste on either side. It should be a short make or break moment that you should be ACTIVELY seeking your haste boost, not getting it passively by doing what you normally would be doing anyway.
Exactly what I've been trying to say regarding this matter.
Haste is powerful, especially on survivors, against killers already struggling. I just had a match as Singularity and sent myself to RPD to test my own skill with the new nerfs, and despite EMPs being weaker it didn't matter since they all ran MFT and just looped, pre-threw pallets and held W to each loop and there was nothing I could do to close the gap. Even better, I ran Fire Up, Brutal Strength, Bamboozle and Deadlock and still couldn't catch up in time for the gen speeds between EMP's shutting down chase and nerfing myself playing an indoor map.
And if someone says it's a singularity problem, I would have gotten many downs if it wasn't for that 3% getting them to a safe spot perfectly every time. I have the same issues with Sadako, Myers and Knight. It's kinda forcing me to play more Nurse or (forbid the thought) SM for her haste buff.
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@Sharby said:
I still maintain that killer rewards should be mostly dumped into getting hits/downs/hooks instead of kills.
That way you could walk away from an 8 hook, 0kill game with tons of BP/Pips/Achievements without feeling bad. Instead of the current system where you don't get a whole lot for not killing anyone.
It'd make killer a lot less stressful and allow them to lean more into casual builds, that's for sure. I don't think survivors would be mad about them making more BP from getting hooks and even 4k's either, and in all honesty more broken perks may be overlooked if the goal isn't fully kill oriented, depending on the severity of the perks. Heck, might even make some survivors try killer just for the boost in BP to throw on their survivors, who knows.
They could easily make it where the entity gains enough energy from suffering survivors on hooks without it being unfriendly to their lore anyway.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459753#Comment_3459753
CoH, medkits, self-care, botany knowledge - these were all nerfed specifically because a survivor being in the harmed state is beneficial to the killer. If being harmed isn’t that dangerous, why nerf healing?
The overabundance of healing is an entirely different issue. When I say being harmed isn't a problem, it's when you have safe loops/pallets to buy as much time as possible or possibly escape the killer. When healing was prevalent, you had both that and constant resetting. The times being harmed is an issue is when you're facing stealth, in a deadzone or make a mistake. In my experience, deadzones are an issue with MFT but stealth can be either a blessing for the killer or they have enough time to get to a vault/pallet nearby with the haste, and MFT does allow survivor to make minor mistakes at times.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459763#Comment_3459763
I was just noting that the original post failed to account for bloodlust and could potentially be misleading as a result.
For example I recalculated the 115 killer vs MFT example: The OP calculated that it would be 20.2 seconds to catch up, but because you start moving 5% faster after 15 seconds, it's actually 18.55 seconds compared to the standard 15.73 seconds to catch up.
In the example of MFT + Hope the OP calculated that it would take 51.92 seconds to catch up, but because of bloodlust it would actually take 29.67 seconds to catch up.
On that note, using OP's scenario of starting at a pallet and breaking it, chase begins 12m of the survivor being within the killer's range which should proc while killer breaks the pallet. In my experience the distance gained from MFT can break chase during the pallet breaking animation and the killer attempting to catch up the distance, but in the end this is a very situational thing.
I might attempt this with bots for more testing to see if killer retains the chase or not in this scenario.
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@DavidHypnos said:
This is such a non-issue. There are plenty of hooks. At most, 3 will be removed if you can sacrifice 3 survivors to which is not a big deal.
Not necessarily, I've had some ridiculous spawns with hooks at times. I had 1/4th of Ormand, the killer shack side no less, have no hooks and the basement was in main. I even dropped everything to look around myself to make sure I wasn't crazy and yep, no hooks.
Guess where the survivors ran to before going down. Wouldn't hurt to address hooks across the board.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457894#Comment_3457894
The thing that deactivates blood lust is breaking a pallet or using your power.
In the context of the post (distance made after pallet drop) this means it is very significant because it will legitimately reduce the amount of time needed to reach the next pallet drop and restart the process.
As for power usage, most powers will result in injuries or otherwise provide a benefit that removes the need for blood lust. Perhaps doctor is the most notable exception to this, he is notably weak against MFT.
I agree, and MFT is harmful for M1 killers for this reason, considering there's strong chains on maps as it is. And Trickster on maps with high walls, arguably. I think Huntress has a better chance, but my main argument against MFT is for M1 killers and bloodlust is a very weak argument for having it.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457469#Comment_3457469
It’s not free. You can argue about whether the price is commiserate with the gain but you can’t ignore that you need to be injured for it to be in play.
I've said it so many times in other discussions, being harmed is not that big of a deal in most cases.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459196#Comment_3459196
Yeah, I just watched Skermz and Swarm using MFT+Hope against Sadako. She hit one while they were looping shack, and then when they made a beeline for the exit gate she caught up to them and hit the other. I think the MFT+Hope combo is too strong and the two perks shouldn't synergise, but the Sadako wasn't even at BL3 and she managed to hit both. I don't even think she was at BL2. MFT on its own? Hard to imagine she'd struggle. Not buying it either.
Mind sharing the video? Because all I'm seeing here is endgame, beeline for gate, and no talk of looping.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459195#Comment_3459195
I play 75/25 killer/survivor
Including skull merchant so no matter how this goes, I'll win
The beauty of playing both sides
I play both sides too.
Play more killer.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459191#Comment_3459191
Again those walls, loops and pallets are there regardles of mft
Again if a 130% killer can't catch a 103% survivor with MfT then why was it not a problem before MfT that a 125% killer couldn't catch a 100% survivor?
Untill you actually answer that question you are admitting that it was a gross overexaguration and by dancing around that question you are the one trolling
You keep saying the same argument when I've told you that all of those EXTEND the chase time and can even break chase, and MFT extends it even more and ensures each loop/pallet link is secured. There's no point arguing anymore if you're going to never understand it.
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I don't have the energy to explain it to them either.
You'd think all of these things would be obvious but they don't even play the killer enough to find out.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459068#Comment_3459068
If bloodlust wasen't active then i'm still right about the 130% sadekko not being able to catch the 103% survivor being a outright lie.
You can say what you want about MfT and i'll agree that it's very strong. But you can't seriously pretend that a bloodlust 3 killer isn't able to catch a survivor purely cause of MfT
Do you think the game is just a flat plane with no walls, loops, pallets, etc?
I'm honestly suspecting you're just trolling at this point. I refuse to believe that someone with 7800 posts doesn't know that there are ways to extend a chase with the current map layouts and tiles and how haste extends that on top of it.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459081#Comment_3459081
I mean, first of all those are not few options to have if you want to counter it.
Second, you can still play like normal if you want, mft does not automatically make every survivor into an unbeatable god looper, you are still faster, you still have bloodlust, you still have your own killer power and your own killer addons.
You are acting like mft gives survivors an automatic win if you dont hard counter it.
Firstly, those are the options. You're dealing with a perk that can extend chases well beyond the norm and most killer perks require you to run other perks to make them work better.
Second, no. My favorite build on Sadako is Iri Tape/VCR with Deadmans, Jolt, Gearhead and a mixed bag for the last. My other go to is a full scream build. MFT guarantees I can't get value from Deadmans or Jolt if I get chained between god pallets and T L walls. Not to mention if they have the visual terror radius on as well. And do I even need to explain why a scream build is pointless?
Thirdly, the only time I've seen MFT fail is if the survivor doesn't know where loops are. That was once.
So why not just cut the middleman and play Nurse and ignore loops at this point? Most other M1 killers are also outclassed by it and casual fun builds are asking to be destroyed.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459062#Comment_3459062
And there are many more situations where sprint and lithe are better also.
I dont play sadako so i cant fairly measure how much of an impact mft may have over sb and lithe.
Said that, even if you were to be right that is only one example. Instadown counters mft, speed chase power counters mft, anti loop killers counter mft. I dont seriously believe that Mft is consistently better than those two. You are still better using sprint or lithe
So instead of making builds I find fun to run and interactive for all survivors, I have to drop those completely:
Use Exhaust, Anti Gen, Chase, and Instant Down (all that are inconsistent and due to limitations of the perks/addons) to counter one single strong perk and play perfect at every loop just to break even with the 4 perk slots and 2 addon slots I have.
So why shouldn't I just play Nurse instead?
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459050#Comment_3459050
Last time i checked walls, vaults and pallets exist without MfT too.
If a 130% killer can't catch up to a 103% moving survivor then by all logic a 125% killer wouldn't be able to catch up to a 100% survivor any better. Which means there is a supposed tile that even with blood lust 2 you can't beat a perkless survivor.
MfT is strong enough that you can just point to facts to make a argument against it. No need to spout nonsense like that
I don't need to point to the many discussions explaining the math behind how much time walls, vaults and pallets save survivors with and without MFT, I guarantee you can find that information. And bloodlust is a bandaid to bad map design and, at least in my experience, doesn't come into play very often.
In fact, MFT can break chase enough to make sure bloodlust doesn't activate or isn't active very long if you break LoS and get enough distance by, you guessed it, using pallets and vaults.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459050#Comment_3459050
Mft is not stronger than your traditional exhaustion perk. Meaning that those weak killer were already struggling with exhaustion perks before mft was introduced.
I would say mft helped those killer by making survivors give up on sprint/lithe to test it.
SB and Lithe have limits. As I said, I main Sadako and go against those all the time. They won't always have 150% Haste, it has a cooldown and at least SB has a skill with 1%ing the exhaustion cooldown. Anyone who has a problem with those two is the only time I can confidently say skill issue.
MFT is as long as you're damaged or not exhausted, and since killers have hard requirements to exhaust survivors, they can just stay injured if the killer doesn't have at least 1 of those as a perk or addon and is able to apply it reliably, and it'd be disingenuous to say a lot of exhaust effects are consistent for killer to apply aside Fearmonger, and even then that's 5 second and can easily be waited out at a few loops.
In fact MFT makes Lithe easier to use since that's faster times to reach a vault after greeding pallets.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459037#Comment_3459037
I would rather choose to buff those weak m1 killers than try to kill a perk that is being overhyped and is not nearly as strong as people think it is.
The problem with that is if you buff the weak M1 killers to match the perk, then you screw over the survivors without the perk. The opposite problem when the simple solution is to limit the problematic perk.
@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459009#Comment_3459009
What i dislike is the blatent lies
130% killer can't catch a 103% moving survivor? If that's the case why isn't everybody complaining about that apperent infinite? As a 125% killer wouldn't be able to catch up to a 100% survivor any less if that tile existed.
That person is really going around saying there is a tile you can't beat with bloodlust 3 vs mft when that implies that you can't beat it with bloodlust 2 normally.
My dude doesn't know walls, vaults and pallets exist. Those buy you plenty of time to get to another loop against the killers this perk hurts. There's no lies about that, as a Sadako main that the post pointed out.
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@JackOfTrades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458140#Comment_3458140
No add-ons needed, sir
Truly a god among us
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I've legit hunted down survivors I come across who do this to their teammates.
Professionals have standards.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458996#Comment_3458996
Look, this is what i really dislike when people want to prove X perk is strong.
You take a weak m1 killer(sadako), then take a specific tile on a specific map, then take a certain survivor with a specific build that is focusing on looping and after this perfect scenario where everything is set for the perk to work fine you conclude is not a niche perk.
Imagine if i would say that mft is a weak perk because i went against a nurse in glenvale and she tunneled me at 5 gens.
Wouldn't you want perks that make it harder on the stronger killers and not punish the weaker ones then? Where's the logic in phasing out the weak killers some people love to run and make the more problematic killers/tactics more favorable?
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458990#Comment_3458990
Yes, MFT requires a health state for activation, putting the survivor in a precarious spot. Boon: Dark Theory provides a 2% haste buff (really a boost to all action speeds minus gens and healing, IIRC) without a need for injury at all.
Being damaged is only bad if you're in a deadzone, ambushed by stealth, or need to be quiet for evasion. You can still loop the M1 killers that MFT is currently ruining just fine without it and definitely long enough for your team to do gens.
Dark Theory has drawbacks being a Boon that needs to be set up and can be snuffed, having a radius, and has a small timer outside the range. If MFT's haste had a timer most reasonable killers would be okay with it because it wouldn't mean it'd always be an issue, just like Sprint Burst, Lithe and Balanced Landing.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458990#Comment_3458990
Yes, MFT requires a health state for activation, putting the survivor in a precarious spot. Boon: Dark Theory provides a 2% haste buff (really a boost to all action speeds minus gens and healing, IIRC) without a need for injury at all.
Being damaged isn't as horrible as people make it out to be. The only reason being healthy is better is to survive in a deadzone or to be quiet. If you're in a decent loop you can survive a long time against most M1 killers, the same M1 killers this perk damages.
And as most of us have said, Dark Theory is a boon that can be snuffed and takes preparation and works in a set area with a small timer outside that area, that's why it's not complained about. If MFT's haste had a set time as well, I guarantee it wouldn't have this big of a backlash aside the few who lost to it within that timeframe.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458777#Comment_3458777
Nowhere to Hide, Hubris, Superior Anatomy, etc etc. killers often—more than survivors by a wide berth—come out of new chapters with good perks, even after PTB adjustments. It’s disingenuous to say that killers have received poor or lackluster perks in the last several chapters. Survivors have, yes. But not killers. And that’s pretty much always been the case. The last good perk survivors received (prior to MFT) was probably the overtuned CoH. There really hasn’t been anything super good since (again, MFT notwithstanding).
Nowhere to Hide has a range and is countered by Distortion, not to mention if you notice the killer coming toward you immediately
Superior Anatomy requires a vault within 8 meters and works best as a mindgame tool and then deactivates for 30 seconds
Hubris is only viable on some killers and a Spirit Fury build, or getting hit by an unsafe pallet with enduring. 20 second cooldown.
MFT is 3% speed for being hurt. Can you see the difference in activation and deactivation?
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@Exerlin Wraith has built in speed while cloaked and you're the first I've seen NOT complain about Legion and MFT.
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Some censors make sense but stuff like that is ridiculous.
I've had survivors think I was angry because I'd say 'sorry I had to ########, last gen nearly popped.'
'# # # # # # # #'
'#### ####'
'Nevermind, gg'
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I hope BHVR takes the constructive criticism into account, because until something changes I'm not playing Sadako.
Learning Nurse and already have countered full MFT squads.
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@Exerlin said:
Sounds like you need to work on your macro game. Here, let me give you a tip:
Clearing pallets in an area makes that area much more dangerous for survivors to be in. Instead of trying to get every pallet in the map thrown, try to prioritize chasing survivors in high traffic areas or that are near multiple objectives. Consider where the other survivors are and what resources are left on the map so that you can best disrupt the survivor team.
Sounds like you've never played an M1 killer on The Game in general, let alone with MFT in play.
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Bottom line is 3% haste for being injured harms low tier killers, builds that don't involve exhaust, and general looping of the game. If anyone has played killer enough to understand how effective looping and chaining loops/pallets is, they'd see the issue.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458143#Comment_3458143
Man, if only Made For This was basekit, scaled every 15 seconds, worked while healthy or exhausted, and wasn't half the strength of tier 1 of a basekit killer mechanic.
Very entitled response right there.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3456730#Comment_3456730
3% haste shouldn't come that easily? What about a free 5% for getting repeatedly outplayed at a LT wall?
Man, if only bloodlust deactivated on hitting a survivor, breaking chase even inside loops, breaking a pallet or wall, using your killer's power, or making enough distance from the killer instead of being as active as long as MFT can be.
Oh wait-
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How can you forget the addons
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@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458125#Comment_3458125
so... a perk thats balanced against the balanced killers but hurts weaker killers more? kinda seems like lower tier killers need buffs if its not crushing the b-tiers. guess we should nerf lithe because its really strong against freddy and sadako!
Why are so many people using SB and Lithe as some kinda argument for this? I swear I see more people complaining about people complaining about SB and Lithe than actual people complaining about SB and Lithe.
You can't compare a permanent 3% speed boost while damaged to an exhaust perk. There's nothing wrong with wanting a drawback or limit to something as powerful as Haste.
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Based
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@miniwengsel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457608#Comment_3457608
I would disagree. As Killer you cant go for 10 to 12 hooks every game, because your Survivors Teams will be very differend from each other. Where you had everyone first hook in the first game at 3 gens could the next game be one hook at 2 gens.
You cant expect the killer AND the Survivors playing nice from what i ve seen the Killer players where mostly more kind as the Survivors gameplaywhise.
I'm just saying in a perfect scenario to 'fix' toxic killers.
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@Sharby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457861#Comment_3457861
You guys will call anything a crutch at this point.
Promise you M1 killers will still be bad with or without the perk, and if you're struggling to play killer against solo queue survivors you just aren't good at killer I'm sorry to tell you.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457856#Comment_3457856
All of those make it trash tier so no
Hardly anyone run renewal as it is, so anything more than that will make it as much a meme as Mettle of Man
That's why I said OR
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@iphone_T said:
Honestly think disabling it when exit gates are powered is good enough. The main issue with MFT is it’s pairing with hope which that change would fix.
Except that this perk pretty much counters most M1 killers throughout the trial so deactivating at endgame is pointless.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457861#Comment_3457861
Ive used it in a build to experiment using WGLF and MoM. I also played against it a tone playing killer.
And 9/10 a Survivor who has MFT would of been better off running Sprint Burst or Lithe since most killers have tools to either: down a survivor quickly, have the element of surprise, have good mobility.
Its basically just a different version of Resilience with more utility in chase rather than overall, and thats not a bad thing.
A perk that makes most M1 killers suffer for making the mistake of hitting someone is a bad thing. There's plenty of discussions with math behind it as to why this is bad. It'd be different if there was an activation requirement aside 'get damaged.'
Honestly can't change my mind on this.
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@SkeletalElite said:
You have not accounted for the fact that after 15 seconds of chase the killer gains 5% haste, then 10% at 25 seconds, and then 15% at 35 seconds.
Bloodlust isn't the 'gotcha' you think it is. Even that has multiple things to deactivate it.
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I'm convinced anyone defending it at this point uses it as a crutch.
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I feel the opposite, at least SB and Lithe have decent conditions.
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Not a bad suggestion. I'd also argue for tokens, a set amount of time after being hit, or give a % boost to each slugged survivor but making it akin to renewal is at least more interesting and a better activation than just being hurt.
Actually the more I think about it, it makes it very interesting.
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People will read this and continue to defend it too. I've seen both 'Killers should just get better.' and 'But the bad survivors need perks that help too.' 4 1/2 seconds, roughly, is huge in a game like this when every second could mean being downed or not. Can't even ask for some kind of restriction or downside to it without people comparing it to Sprint Burst or some other weak defense.
Honestly I'm just playing Nurse at this point. I'd rather lose and learn as her than deal with it as Sadako. And I may just avoid SoloQ entirely since every time I've loaded in since the update killers target out whoever doesn't run it.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457516#Comment_3457516
I’m not missing the point. You actually inserted yourself into a discussion without reading through it. If you had, you might have known my comment referencing SB was in response to someone else specifically saying they believe the perk is fine, as a killer-main, and me asking why they believe so many killer mains on this forum complain about it. Stay out of the koolaid if you don’t know the flavor. 🤷♀️
They brought up SB as an example, and you ran with that instead of tackling the subject of MFT and as it stands, still are avoiding to talk about.
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@Skysair said:
Remove Bloodlust and then maybe we can talk about a rework for Made for This.
Otherwise, sorry but git gud. Killers in 2023 are so much more whiny than they were back in 2020/2021, back when old meta (DS / Unbreakable / Dead Hard / Iron Will) was alive and well. At this rate, killers in 2023 want survivors to spawn in on hooks/death hook already so they can faceroll their keyboard and get an easy 4k win every match. Isn't that right?
Ah yes, a mechanic that takes time to build up and is negligent in the overall game when a killer has 4 targets, deactivates when chase magically drops in certain loops and when breaking pallets/doors/hitting someone, and rarely comes into play with a good killer compares to:
Hit --> 3% speed boost while injured
I'm convinced so many survivor mains here are clueless about the overall balance of the game and conveniently covers it up with 'git gud'
Meanwhile killers who play as fair as possible get the worst experiences with additions like this, so survivors will face more and more camp/tunnel and complain even more and fuel the never ending cycle of 'but that side needs to suffer.'
And before anyone bring up broken killer perks or abilities, I think Nurse and Blight have problems, the broken addons need reworks, Myers instakill is busted in most cases (But with this perk who knows anymore) and NOED doesn't need haste either.
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Only when playing fair as a killer is balanced and encouraged to do as well.
And not in a 'survivor has the advantage' or 'killer requires 4k's' balanced, and DEFINITELY not with broken perks.
The anticamp idea is a decent step, but we'd have to see how it effects killers who don't camp.