ChaosWam
ChaosWam
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- ChaosWam
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It's this simple: If survivors keep doing that with anti-tunnel, then killers can ignore any complaints about slugging/tunneling until these kinds of changes are made. Can't have your cake and eat it, too.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710261#Comment_3710261
Again this isn't a threat. Most killers are already doing this.
I like having the ability to play optimally and expect my opponent to do the same.
I think you should stop worrying about imaginary rulebooks and internet karma and just play how you want.
I'm just pointing out this isn't fun for either side. I enjoy chasing different survivors, and when I'm in matches like this it becomes extremely stale being required to slug out someone doing it or tunneling them out if I'm playing high mobility.
And on survivor side, my teammates go down like flies trying to do this stuff too, or anyone not running DS get tunneled out to compensate.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
What I'm seeing is the rise of DS Derangement Syndrome (DSDS). Players have all this hatred for DS that it clouds their judgment.
Is it truly unreasonable that killers trying to spread hooks are a tad tired of these anti-tunnel perks being used offensively because survivors want constant value regardless?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710233#Comment_3710233
Because when used offensively it is too strong. When used to counter tunneling it is fine because it has a counter.
The people who use antitunnel perks "offensively" and use DS will do a few things.
Imagine you have a perk build of:
- DS
- OTR
- Dead hard
- Unbreakable
You hook them, then they get unhooked.
Now for the next 80 seconds, if you completely ignore them (in theory, the counter to anti-tunnel perks) you can't. The counter to OTR and DS, is to just not tunnel them, if you don't tunnel them, no problem. But, if they use the perks "offensively" then they have no effective counter.
Let's look at these as if there are no pallets or windows, and everyone just runs in a straight line.
What do you do when that unhooked survivor now forcably body blocks for someone else you are chasing. Lets say they get unhooked, you start chasing some other survivor, maybe you even hit them, then the guy who was unhooked just flies in (probably fully healed) and body blocks. Then you hit them, because obviously you do. Now you spend 2.7 seconds doing nothing and the original survivor gets 12 seconds of distance on you, and you keep going after them. Then, as you are about to hit them, the other person comes in and body blocks again, but they have OTR. Now that other survivor gains another 12 seconds of distance. Then they come in a THIRD time, and body block them and you down them.
Now, you have 2 choices:
- You pick up the guy you just downed,
- You ignore them and leave them on the ground.
If you leave them on the ground, they'll recover with unbreakable in about 20 seconds, meanwhile you are still chasing that other survivor for 12 of those seconds, you down them, 2.7 seconds, you pick them up, 3 seconds, you walk to a hook, 8 seconds, you hook them 1.5 seconds.
This means, without body blocking at all there would have been:
- 15.2 * 3 survivors = 45.6 seconds of generator progress
With this body blocking, now you have:
- 51.2 * 2 survivors = 102.4 seconds of generator progress.
And that is what you get for INTENTIONALLY GOING OUT OF YOUR WAY to NOT tunnel.
So what about the second option? Where you say, forget it, lets just tunnel them then if they want it so bad? Well, They land DS, stun you for 4 seconds (its 5, but the animation takes 1 second) gaining 21 seconds of distance. But now they also have dead hard, so you have to hit them again gaining another 18 seconds of distance. Then you can down them. This means you have
- (63 * 2 survivors) + 39 seconds * 1 survivor = 165 seconds of generator progress.
So, in typical game of DBD at high level, where GOOD teams of survivors will finish about 2-3 gens right around the time you land your first down (lets assume 2) That means they have 270 seconds worth of gen progression to do to win the game.
Without these perks being used offensively, they get 45.6 seconds of progress done, and the killer has another hook, and chances to have gen regression perks like Pop/pain res/ grim embrace to continue slowing the game down.
WITH these perks, even if you take the optimal solution of 100% completely ignoring them? Now survivors only have 170 seconds of progress left. So little that they could literally leave that guy on the hook and just power through gens to finish them up really quick, but certainly very quickly end the game. And if you do give in to the tunnel, they did 165 seconds of progress. which gives the survivors only 100 seconds left. Meaning that the game is probably going to be over in the next 30-45 seconds.
The point is. That when used defensively, these perks have an obvious counter, you just don't tunnel them. And you "keep an eye" on them, because if you want to tunnel, you can see when they touch a gen or do something, and know that they can safely be "tunneled". Or, you confidently know that they aren't working on gens, if they are worried you are going to tunnel them, but if used OFFENSIVELY these perks effectively have no counter, because you are pretty much screwed either way. Just a little less so if you decide to leave the person on the ground.
And the worst part of it? All 4 survivors can do this, this is only assuming A SINGLE survivor has these perks. Now imagine all 4 do, and you realize that you really don't stand a chance.
This is a great breakdown of it, and I'd like to add it's also killer dependent.
Nurse, Blight or Spirit? They can afford to eat the 5 second stun and catch up quickly in most scenarios. Other killers, not so much. If you have survivors running OTR/DS, they can do things like activate all of Hag's traps they find, follow an Artist and deny any anti-loop crows by running into them, or go as far as willingly step into one or two of Trapper's traps because if Trapper grabs them they get their DS anyway.
The buff didn't address this at all and lots of people warned BHVR of it. Something like restricting a killer's power for x seconds post 3 second stun or allowing killers to walk through survivors trying to bodyblock with it would have been a better step in the right direction. We already know good survivors were able to get value from the 3 second stun as is, and arguably 4 seconds would have been good too if it was accompanied by one of the two alternate changes.
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Despite a few perk combinations and weird changes, I'm still having fun. This is my second year playing iirc and I am sitting on a P91 Sadako with everyone but 2 survivors P3'd.
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- Collective Stealth could be a bit over-tuned that way, having 2 people without noises or scratch marks for 40 seconds but I like the idea.
- Power of Two is too much, haste is always difficult to balance and even with that cooldown it's guaranteed to extend chases too long.
- I'd have to see Corrective Action in practice to have a better opinion on that change.
- Good Inner Focus change.
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@WolfyWood said:
Killers don't like any perk that has an obvious tell that they were outplayed.
That's the reason why DH/DS are called crutch/second chance perks and NOED is called a 'comeback mechanic.'
I wouldn't pay it any mind.
Reasoning like this is slowly turning me into a slugging/tunneling killer myself, who has people trying to bait their DS against me as I spread hooks.
You simply get outplayed after all.
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I like him, and honestly I think his ranged attack can be too easy to predict and outmaneuver at times. I'm fine with him being able to force hard to get out of situations because of that.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Dont take Drowzii seriously. All of their content is bait.
Ill provide an example, since Drowzii has an art to creating bait:
https://twitter.com/DrowziiDBD/status/1780206207237545990
- 4 Eyrie of Crows offerings; 1 MacMillan offering; is playing on Azarov's, which means they have to be in a custom match with the map selected since that is the only way it is possible. A clue that can be really easy to miss for those not paying attention but is obvious once you see it.
- Also he doesnt even try to move, they just DC after being hit, which means they were just intentionally trying to get hit there so they could DC.
- For The People + Buckle Up is ran to make people upset since it's a really strong and controversial combo and adds a layer of "entitlement" to it. Also slapped on Windows of Opporunity and does not look behind them to also just slap on a bit more controversy intentionally.
- Yelling "he is cheating" mixed with awful audio balancing. <3 Just perfect, I really do love that the most.
Drowzii is like the Sluzzy of DBD Twitter. The bait they post is really thought out.
Have to admit, there's a subtle artform to this level of gaslighting and deception. I'd be impressed with the dedication if I wasn't so disapproving of the intent.
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Specifically Plague too, and it was a 5 year long bug apparently? Or something like that?
Next you'll tell me they'll fix a bug where dire crows aren't supposed to deal damage to swarmed survivors or Legion isn't supposed to be able to vault during power.
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@Onako said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708669#Comment_3708669
Well maybe in a SWF stack, I've yet to see a single survivor in solo queue using OTR for blocking a hook instead of idling around until it runs out. I do not doubt that the perk is hot garbage in general tho. A necessary evil for this "oh so healthy playstyle", especially since tunneling combined with PGTW is such a commong thing these days
Ever since the patch dropped, roughly 80% of my matches has had at least one person attempting it. There were better alternatives to the tunneling thing, especially against the stronger killers who can afford to ignore the 5 second stun anyway.
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@Onako said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708330#Comment_3708330
Sorry to say this but if you have issues with DS and OTR that's more a you problem than a perk problem really
I don't wanna hear it when I try to spread hooks and multiple survivors try blocking off hook.
It's not even a win/lose thing, it's a problem regardless for both sides. If it works, it's obnoxious and delays the game against weak M1 killers. If not, it's a detriment to your fellow survivors.
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Throw me on the pile of survivors aggressively using it against me, as I called it before.
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At this point I say fair game
Decisive buff, no change to OTR, no change to BU+FTP, no change to Background Player and Flashbang going through walls. And survivors expect killers to adhere to a rulebook. I play both sides and I don't even care if I get tunneled as survivor, I completely understand it.
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I wouldn't be against her stealth being mapwide.
Increases paranoia and if they kept it directional, then you still won't know how close she is in that direction especially with her demanifest invisibility range. Would be a neat twist to the general stealth roster.
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Tbh it's only good on killers who reliably get injuries or against teams who rush gens while injured which is kinda rare in my matches. Not to mention, to get full value you need to pair it with other engame perks.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707744#Comment_3707744
The closest we got to a "health patch" was Patch 6.1.0, and even then, it was more of a "meta shakeup" than anything else.
Also BHVR is full of talented people, the issue is that said talented people are forced to release content that might not be finished because the studio, as a whole, has corporate deadlines to meet, to put it bluntly, they are not given enough time. :(
Keep in mind that I dont work at BHVR, I can only speak from what limited information I am aware of from past developer streams and such, so I could be completely wrong here, and my apologies if so.
Oh I am aware, I meant no disrespect to the developers and know it's not magic to fix every problem and all. I'm just hoping the game doesn't spiral downwards in terms of bugs, glitches, and whatnot every patch. I noticed sometimes old bugs previously patched pop back up alongside new ones as well. And as you said, it doesn't help they have deadlines and a steady stream of income to consider at all times with new chapters, cosmetics and such.
I don't envy their position in this, especially when a lot of users are upset. I just hope they can manage to fix as much of this as possible with the new engine having so much pop up at once.
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Seriously, we should have had more forewarning about the engine update prior to the PTB but I don't even know if that would have helped considering all the new bugs that popped up on live.
I wonder if they're going to reconsider doing a health update after this fiasco.
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I have to ask this… Was Adreneline really only useful because it healed off hook?
My experience with it was it's extremely powerful for last second downs/popping gens in the killer's face/rushing gens injured. I only remember maybe 2 times Adreneline popped off a hook when I played killer.
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Did everyone just use adrenaline to heal off hook? The only times I faced it is when they pop a gen in my face and get fully healed.
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Honestly, it's entire mess of a kit is probably the most 'balanced' thing I've seen.
- Fast teleport but have to time/manipulate your clone placements
- Projectile that needs to apply it's effects via splash damage
- Addons are pretty varied and have their niches (outside blurry photo+vanishing box, love those addons)
- Skill expression via learning bounce mechanics for trickshots/going through walls and floors
- And personally speaking from my survivor PoV, interesting enough counterplay with trying to mindgame projectiles and clearing clones and weakened.
Not that I can say it's perfect, I doubt I have enough time spent as/against them to make that call, but so far I'm always excited to go against them.
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I don't even have a problem with exhaust perks, the problem I believe lies in how maps generate tiles at times while shift+W being the counter to half the roster. I just see exhaust perks as a way to get to a safe tile, but it only gets worse when you don't even need to play the tile because there's 1-2 safe extensions beyond the tile you reach, especially when they connect to a strong main building or shack. All it takes is making the killer stop half a second at a pallet thinking you may throw it and you can just greed to the next tile's window/pallet.
I say this as someone who primarily plays M1 killers, for the record. I know M2 killers have the edge over this but that doesn't mean it's still not an issue.
Edit: Except Background Player, that one may be problematic.
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I kinda get what OP is saying.
It's not how the match ended, winning or losing isn't the problem, it's the stagnation of the meta. We're going to see the old meta rise back up slowly on both sides and already kinda are. There's not as much variety and matches are becoming increasingly similar in quality.
My matches, running off-meta, are either god tier looping survivors, obvious speed cheaters, or survivors who just give up immediately. There's no real tense chase, loops are mostly a joke with how densely packed they can be, and meta perks exasperate the issue when you finally win chase and someone rushes in with something like FTP+BU or BGP+Flashbang, meanwhile slugging or tunneling is also a bad idea because of the picture OP posted. Really only the highest tier killers can get away with it for obvious reasons, but for players like me who enjoy some of the kits of the low tier killers you hit a point where every match plays out the same because of the meta. Winning or losing feels the same at that point.
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Between DS+OTR and BU+FTP, I am either going to practice Nurse or slug everyone I can if they attempt abusing those combos while I'm trying to spread hooks.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705139#Comment_3705139
My topic is about survivor holding W and nothing else. (look back again to my image).
Holding W around loops then chain to another title's window is a normal chase, not "holding W"
It's holding W if it's a STRAIGHT LINE OF TILES like I said. Re-read my first post.
Literally the threat of being stunned gives survivors enough time to make it to another loop if the killer doesn't commit to holding W as well, that's the problem. I've been in so many scenarios where survivors somehow manage to be safe at every distance and hold W or wait half a second at a pallet, and if I don't get stunned and play the loop right they just hold W to the next loop safely WITHOUT PLAYING THE LOOP. I'm just saying some tiles should be able to cut off holding W instead of incentivizing it and having the survivor at least try to play half the loops.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705131#Comment_3705131
That is titles chaining. Not holding W
The true W is survivor press a single button running in straight line, using no resource, no loops, no mind game that requires killer 33sec to catch a survivor 20m ahead. As alot of killer complaining about.
There's no chaining if they don't even need the windows or pallets and just hold W through them, if you dare try to cut them off or play the loop. Why should killer be punished because they stopped for half a second or did the right play and try to cut off the loop but survs can just hold W to the next safe loop?
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They need to make some loops hinder that possibility.
There's no reason there should be 5 pallet loops in a line that perfectly combo into each other and is a lose/lose for the killer for trying to contain chase inside one without the survivor winning at least 1 mindgame. It's crazy some maps generate endless hold W scenarios.
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One thought I had while playing today is to give Sadako Any Means Necessary as part of her power, if BHVR were to give her a chase power. Yes, the survivor perk.
Allow her to reset a pallet at a certain range, put a cooldown timer on the reset being usable again and .5 seconds before Sadako can M1 post-reset + when the pallet can be thrown again. I get so many survivors (and a lot of subtle speed cheaters) just holding W and throw pallets and something like this would help that a tad.
I'd have to mull over how best to balance this sort of thing further.
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Sadako and Distorted Photo.
Seriously underrated addon if the survivors are careless or need to keep an eye on you during loops with tall walls. Sometimes even catch survivors screaming in bushes while swapping manifest states.
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@D0NN1ED4RK0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703147#Comment_3703147
pyramid head counters DS
Can’t bodyblock with DS if they can’t use it in the first place
That is also a good choice.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703153#Comment_3703153
This is a common threat done by Killer Mains. Goes back years already. Whenever Survivors receive a Buff or Killers receive a substancial Nerf (which is something which happens very rarely), people say they will no tunnel or will now have to tunnel every game.
In the end they are already tunneling anyway, so who cares. In the end, 5 second DS will not be as impactful as it was before because every Killer player nowadays knows that just powering through DS is still the best play.
I play both sides and had to deal with it, what is this gaslighting?
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@Nerfpopalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703164#Comment_3703164
bro you do realize just slug the decisive user and leave them on the floor weaponizing decisive isn’t as big of a deal as you guys make it out to be
The thing is we don't WANT that to be an option. Most of us who have this issue play the game as fair as possible. Not to mention, how long until survivors get sick of killers doing this to counter the combo? We also have survivors who take a hit and then hide in a locker to save their DS for when you grab them, or stay alive if you leave. On top of it, there's always the current Buckle up+FTP combo that makes it a moot point.
There was a better way to balance DS: Disable the killer's power for x seconds and allow the survivor to move immediately after hitting the DS skillcheck so they get the full stun duration.
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703136#Comment_3703136
Lmao it’s so funny to me how every time a survivor perk gets a buff it’s always followed by posts of “welp now I’m gonna tunnel everyone out!”
When had that ever not happened? 🤣🤣 Tunnelers were always gonna tunnel regardless. This is no longer the threat that you think it is
And the killers who don't tunnel and get DS weaponized against them via bodyblocks? Killers who already suffer from spreading hooks and may need to tunnel at 1 gen left? Compared to killers who can completely ignore it like Nurse, Blight, Spirit or any killer with a fast/ranged power?
I had to live through DS being weaponized as well, trying to play as fair as possible for survivors. This was a problem and most likely will become another problem when mixed with OTR.
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Can't wait for everyone to stack DS again so I'm forced to slug whoever bodyblocks/goats me into a chase post-hook. Ahahaha…
Maybe I should learn more Nurse…
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I'd agree if all his cages count as scourge hooks.
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Forum has been fine. Leagues better than Steam Discussion but that's a given.
The game isn't perfect, but personally I think they've been making some decent changes. Some work, some don't, and some things could be tweaked, but if I compared it to when I first started it's been in a decent direction. The only thing that worries me is gen regression and survivor endurance builds are slowly becoming metas again.
I guess some killer reworks and designs aren't too great, like Trickster for example. But on the other end, I enjoy Billy matches as survivor and Unknown is a really great killer that I've grown to love going against/playing as.
I'm also enjoying they're at least attempting different game modes, even if they are limited time at the moment.
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Personally I'd like this kinda change.
Or something to do with spreading as much terror/pain/horror what have you before survivors escape, kills being a cherry on top bonus of like 5k BP per kill or something. It'd push so much stress off killer, but the other issue is would it make it as fun for competitive play?
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It's kinda crazy to me this addon has existed this long, post BT basekit.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702029#Comment_3702029
Ya know, for once… I can get behind this tunneling reasoning lol. Big plays mean big risks, or should. And getting tunneled is definitely a risk lol. Well played!
Now to the killers in here!
"Yes, but the killer shouldn't etc etc…' Enough. The killer has had non-stop buffs while survivors keep getting entire truckloads of manure dumped on their heads.
Eh, survivors have also gotten a lot of QoL basekit so I can't get behind that at the end either.
Buckle Up+For The People would be like if killers had a combo that guarantees an instant down off hook, something like Pinhead's current addon that gives whoever is unhooked deep wounds except imagine if every killer had that loophole.
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To be fair, I tunnel anyone using that combo out once they show they have it.
It gives too much time to risk letting it stay in the match more than once. This coming from a hook spreader.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701487#Comment_3701487
Thanks! I was convinced this was gonna be a "Never replied, never seen", so the fact 1 person responded is already a pleasant surprise. 😅
Slippery Meat is a weird one, but my main thought is there isn't really an effective anti camp perk that isn't behind a paywall. Both Reassurance and Camaradarie are behind paywalls, and the only other one is Deliverance, which does no good if you're hooked first.
I have thought about suggesting Slippery Meat allows you to unhook yourself at the expense of a hook stage... but it seems like it might be a little busted at EGC in conjunction with a rat playstyle... at least Deliverance needs you to expose yourself, so I'm not too keen 🤔
To be fair Slippery Meat could be very interesting thread on its own 😅
If Slippery Meat was a basekit anti camp or anti tunnel perk, that'd be good I do agree on that. New players desperately need something for that.
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I have been running into a few as well. It's getting ridiculous and on my survivor matches killers are getting paranoid and just DCing because they don't know if someone is using subtle cheats or not. Can't blame em either, my killer matches have been sketchy at times too.
Then there's the VERY obvious cheaters…
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701448#Comment_3701448
I think there is now both shared and invidual MMR. I get weaker survivors on killers I play rarely and stronger on killers I play more.
I, unfortunately, have the opposite of this.
My main usually gets survivors my skill or less and the killers I rarely touch and decide to play on a whim get the 5k+ hour players.
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I really like this idea.
There's not much else I can say except I pretty much agree on everything here, except maybe how slippery meat works but I have no better alternatives so I won't argue against it.
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I'd be fine without the basekit addons, the rest I agree with.
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Look, I still think soloQ is bad and some killers need tweaks, but I'm not going to pretend BHVR hasn't been trying to help survivor side.
- BT basekit
- Anti-Facecamp
- HUD information
- Flashlight save window increase
- Hook grab removal
- Anti-3 Gen measures
- Visual Heartbeat (I use this for lullabies myself because hey, if I can't use Sadako stealth because of it why shouldn't I also run it on survivor too?)
These have helped massively in my own survivor matches and I escape roughly 40% of the time, as a BAD survivor player who doesn't know every loop. BHVR isn't perfect but I'll give them credit for trying. And heck, killer has gotten some nice QoL to feel less sluggish like the increase in animations and FoV slider.
Does survivor need a little more? I think so. Tunneling and slugging can still be extremely problematic in some scenarios (tunneling being less so for me because I can understand some scenarios it's required for pressure) but survivor buffs don't need to come with kneecapping killers since this IS a 1v4 game. I almost dropped DBD when I first started as Sadako released because killer didn't feel like a decent threat. Now, they kinda do feel like a proper threat these days.
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Highly depends on the killer.
Billy/Bubba/Anyone with NOED and they hooked near the lit totem? I'm out.
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I've become so jaded with it at this point I just accept the free BP from bots.
Heck they usually miss skill checks too.
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As a stealth enjoyer I absolutely love indoor maps. RPD was the first indoor map I fully learned in this game. As survivor, it makes the game more tense too and I can appreciate that.
Open maps feel… Anticlimactic? Being able to see the killer way off in the distance while doing a gen knowing if he's coming or not kinda kills that tense feeling for me. Though, I will say, open maps are required for killers like Blight, Wesker and Billy for fast movements.
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Long time Sadako player here
She's better in terms of strength compared to 1.0 and more fair than 2.0, but it's incredibly easy to shut her teleport (and map pressure) completely down, as well as kneecap her stealth just by having the visual heartbeat on to see her lullaby.
She's still good for mindgames if you can manage her manifest invisibility right and know how to bait out with the stun protection when demanifested, but that's about it. No real chase power, still an M1 killer that can be looped for eternity at strong loops, and condemned is only a problem if you let it be one.