Blueberry
Blueberry
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think Tru3 made some good points in his reply, but for the most part I agree more with Otz on this. I think Tru3 is making unsubstantiated claims and being really stubborn about them; when I don't even think he really meant them entirely when he said them- but doesn't want to sound foolish by dropping it now.
Like which statements?
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I don't think there was really one doing better or worse. What it came down to is they simply have different definitions of viable.
Which is the same reason a lot of people on the forums get into arguments over "viable killers".
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915391#Comment_915391
imo smacking healthy survivors is much more viable than sniffing around for blood orbs
You're assuming you are getting M1's with no power as the largest and loudest killer in game. We already know how viable that is a rank 1, it's not.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/914308#Comment_914308
Having their auras seen all game is kind of a downside
A few seconds of aura reading for no power all game and to be a loud M1 killer is a deal any survivor would take.
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@antgnstea said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/914965#Comment_914965
He starts dashing I hear him, then turns 90 degree after he passed pallet. and his dash ends on me, doesn't he? Demon strike would required more time to charge, he wouldn't be able to hit me. That is dash.
It was only a Demon Strike, no dash. He started it right as he came around the corner behind you. The charge up time for it still to be a one shot is extremely short.
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Blendettes since they're usually the try hards.
Fengs for being the most toxic.
Jeff gets the friendliest.
My experiences any way.
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@antgnstea said:
Apparently you can't turn and hit with your dash but you can definitely turn 90 while dashing like in the example. PC btw
That wasn't 90 during a dash
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/914874#Comment_914874
I would rather see the game's development than some number
That's true, but I don't think anyone would disagree that overall survivors have been made weaker and killers made stronger over the last 3+ years.
Where the disagreements comes in is to what degree it's gone to change balance.
I also don't think anyone who actually played 3+ years ago would disagree that survivors were completely and utterly broken and needed a large bring down. Back then you had literal infinite's and sprint bursts that could go off multiple times a chase.
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It's a 90 degree arch, not in each direction. So 45 each way for a total of 90.
Anyway, it's a massive nerf. Makes him even more loopable than he already was.
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Placing the "number" of nerfs on each side is meaningless and doesn't make sense at all.
Some nerfs are much more severe than others.
What's the conclusion you're looking for?
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Buffing the numerous weak killers should've been a much higher priority than the nerfs to the higher killers.
Yeah we can use that logic that more people have to play against Spirit than AS Spirit, however if you're gonna go by that logic than that's essentially saying anything that effects survivors more will always get the number 1 first priority because it's always a 4v1 ratio of players. That's a scary road to head down.
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@GodDamn_Angela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/914612#Comment_914612
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/914613#Comment_914613
I agree.
Pipping info would give us a lot to work with in understanding Killer strength, overall.
I just wish their piping system wasn't such a mess for half the Killers.
At least that issue is fixable, even though they haven't yet.
There would still be a couple flaws doing it this way, but it would still be much more accurate than what we are currently seeing.
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There are way, way too many factors in the data that artificially make killers look stronger than they actually are by giving kills that aren't indicative of balance.
Honestly the best approach to get around a lot of this and see more accurate data would be to see pip rates by rank and system.
By going with pips instead of kills for seeing how strong killers are you get around things like a 4k from NOED but it's a black pip.
The only issue with that is killers that get artificially penalized on their pipping like 1 shot killers for example, but that's more a design issue since the devs still haven't fixed that problem.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/914461#Comment_914461
Rank 1 stats are a little different from red ranks. The reason why we showed red rank stats rather than just rank 1 is mostly due to popular demand, but also because it gives a larger sample size.
That being said, the kill rates at rank 1 tend to be even higher across the board.
Are those kill rates factoring in a lot of the things we've mentioned though?
Since kills also aren't necessarily how ranking up (winning) is decided I'd also like to see those stats include pipping stats. IE 4k but all 1 hooks for a black pip can each be highly misleading.
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@Umbrae_pk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/914308#Comment_914308
Bloody Coil, Iridescent Stone, Match Box, Mint Rag, Iridescent Head, Iridescent King, etc…
Those are all good, some over powered, Ultra- rare add-ons that haven’t been changed.
Match Box, Mint Rag and Iridescent King are all just okay at best imo.
Trappers are decently good but they need to be for how weak his base kit is.
Iridescent Head is a strong one but we all know its nerf is coming.
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Outdoor Security Camera should give its effect when downing any survivor while Night Shroud is active. This rewards you for sneaking up without getting revealed. Now it's actually decent.
Leprose Lichen just needs to allow Demo to move his camera and look around while traversing the upside down. Boom that easy, now it's decently good.
Red Moss just needs the negative on it removed and to make it also remove the global scream when he uses his portals. His footstomps are already loud enough to hear him coming around a corner even with Undetectable.
None of these changes would make the addons overpowered but now they would actually be decent and worth running. Currently most of them are all garbage.
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@Galklife said:
@Blueberry yea + those stats dont cover most important thing (to me) how many hooks killer made, because most of the time i get 6/7 hooks before 1st kill, and i know that stat would be way different with most killers here, and imo that would show kinda ballance, because 1 kill after 6 hooks =/= 2 facecamped/1hooked kills
Agreed, that is another factor.
Take NOED games out and show us the amount of hooks per killer.
Also, I wouldn't count any kills once the exit gates are powered because after that the killer will just camp whatever survivor they got because the games over. As well as once the gates are powered the survivors know they won so they just dick around swarming the killer and trading hooks. This also doesn't take into account all the games survivors just kill themselves on the hook.
I also want rank 1 stats, not just red rank stats. As we've seen from prior data they've shown, rank 1 stats are very different from overall red ranks.
There are just SO many factors that give the killer kills for these stats, but at the same time are not indicative of "balance".
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@Galklife said:
@Blueberry yup i detest noed as well and when i see top 4 killers with ruinoed i want to puke (and sadly thats pretty often)
noed needs rework but can you imagine how much big chunk of killers would cry about it?
I think if we saw NOED removed that those stats they have would look extremely different. NOED is just one of many factors their stats don't take into account that artificially make killers look stronger/more balanced than they actually are. It's one of many bandaids for bad balance.
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If that was really the case, the smart move on their part would have been to at least let the community know those changes were coming and that was why. Instead they're gonna finish those change and already lost a bunch of people. IF this was true any way. I personally don't think so.
I honestly just think they believed all those killers were too strong/not fun to go against and that's why they think the changes were warranted. Of which I'd disagree with them though.
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I think it's a mix of a couple factors affecting queue times right now.
- It's currently way easier to rank up on survivor than killer which is throwing off the populations at each rank.
- I do think there have been quite a few killers quitting from all the killer nerfs lately. Spirit and Nurse were high rank killers way to blow off steam from having to deal with using the other weak killers. Now that that's gone they're just done.
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@Galklife said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/913539#Comment_913539
weak killers run noed because (players) on those are bad xd i stopped using noed about 1,5 year ago and since then im maining both pig and wraith (arguably weak killers) and still be on whatever rank i want (i have now maybe 800h on both of them)
edit: you just have to learn how to play those killers its not just plug and play on same lvl as spirit or billy
but lately i saw more and more spirits and billys with noed and you wont tell me its because they arent in top 4 its because players likes to have 1 perk that will give them kill or even win them lategame
People equip noed either because their bad or the killer is weak.
I personally think it looks pretty sad to see noed on a Spirit for example, but if I see say a Trapper running it...eh he kinda needs it and I'm not really gonna blame him.
I personally detest NOED. It rewards players with undeserved kills.
It is a "gen rush" counter of which I do like, but I don't want a gen rush counter that rewards me for survivors being lazy. I want a gen rush counter that rewards me for playing well.
For example. (not being literal here, just to get the point across) if NOED activating instead of 1 shots made a gen reactivate when the last one finishes I would like that much better. This is because then it is punishing gen rush heavily, but it's giving me time to make skillful plays, not just handing me free kills.
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Idk why it's such an outrageous idea that we just get a strong and fun addon without some extreme negative attached. Oni's glove for example, it's a decent effect but not crazy strong enough to need a negative on it. The devs seem obsessed with having a negative on all them for some reason even when it's not warranted.
A competent group of survivors are gonna bully him even more when they realize he's running this.
Aside from a couple ultra rares that warrant the negative on them, almost all the killers ultra rares don't deserve the negative attached to them. For most of them the negatives even outweigh the value they'd bring. This is why for the majority of the killers now their ultra rares aren't even close to their best addons.
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Tbh the addon was just decently good before, but now the nerfs to it seemed really unnecessary. They really seem intent on making all killers ultra rares bad. A good group of survivors that realizes he is running this addon are going to abuse him for it hard.
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@DepressedClownMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/910725#Comment_910725
So there is this very good nurse main that has over 5k hours in my region and he still recks us all when we are swf and get matched with him. I think Nurse's skill cap has just increased, but she definitely is still the best killer if you are very good with her
She's weaker so yeah the skill cap is definitely higher but I still don't think she can compete against good rank 1 swf groups any more.
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@BBQnDemogorgon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/913543#Comment_913543
I'd be more worried about doc and Iri King tbh
Docs already so bad he's only got one way to go, up. His ultra rare isn't that good either, I doubt it would be getting nerfed anyway.
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@humanbeing1704 said:
I feel like adreanline will get nerfed out of the blue to be honest
Maybe just make it not give the heal as well if you are Exhausted when it activates. That's what I'm expecting.
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Iridescent hatchets are definitely next on the chopping block.
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There is a vast gap in power between killers that's true. You don't see it in the "stats" given because all those weak killers run NOED because of how weak they are and it artificially makes them look like they're doing better than they are.
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Very well said @SpaceCoconut
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@dont_ask_me_again said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/913352#Comment_913352
This’d kill nurse against the best survivors tbh. It gets pretty clutch at a certain level.
It is a nerf yeah, but I'd take this change over her current cooldown change. The cooldown change hurts her at least just as much against the best survivors imo.
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Remove the cooldown on her blinks and lower the lunge she has coming out of a blink.
This removes the non fun element they added while adding much more counter play to her blinks because now she has to be much more accurate with her blinks and they are easier to dodge if the nurse isn't as good. She will have to be much more precise with her aiming.
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@EthanW said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911460#Comment_911460
Ooo that would be sick too like all you hear as a survivor is just Onis growls and grunts with no terror radius whatsoever. Shows the power of the Yamaoka.
Yup! He's still extremely loud and everyone gets a heads up that he has the addon and is Demon Dashing, just no TR and he gets that initial ping of locations for map pressure.
This seems very fun and strong, while still balanced with counter play.
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That seems like a fair change.
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@silverwolf4455 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/910725#Comment_910725
The question now is she weaker/stronger than spirit?
I'd say weaker than Spirit now myself.
However since both their changes I don't think any killer is S tier anymore. Spirits just sitting at the top of A tier imo.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911386#Comment_911386
So again I lead you to this quote.
"Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.
On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much"
So knowing a dev stated this on this very thread it does show reasoning is stated so to myself the change was made due to looking at many perks and the overall possible slowdown effects as the quote itself states "stacking everything together makes it way too much" so one can conclude it was stronger in these combinations than they intended it to be hence the change.
So that goes back to my comments of its either change the perks or change the addons.
If you are never going to trust them then no matter what they say it really wont matter as you will disregard any and all reasoning as you have done here.
"So again I lead you to this quote.
"Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.
On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much""
And I'll respond again with the same thing I did before.
"This is assuming no one chooses to wake up which is quite easy, no one chooses to heal (of which Dying Light is making easier), the killer doesn't kill the obsession AND the killer is using up all addon slots as well as 2 perk slots.
Yeah when the survivors choose not to use a single ounce of counter play handed to them anything will seem strong."
That is not good reasoning. It's lowering the bar because people refuse to learn and adapt.
"so one can conclude it was stronger in these combinations than they intended it to be hence the change."
The level of strength they intend is very weak.
"So that goes back to my comments of its either change the perks or change the addons"
Nothing you've shown has stated why either needed to happen.
"If you are never going to trust them then no matter what they say it really wont matter as you will disregard any and all reasoning as you have done here."
You are misunderstanding. I never said or even implied, "never going to trust them then no matter". What I said or implied was that I do not trust them unless it is included with good reasoning or data to back it up.
The reasoning Peanits gave was not "good reasoning". It was flawed on many accounts.
The game does need better balancing for low ranks as well but that is not how it should be done.
These are my opinions from many hours of play and you have yours.
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@EthanW said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911404#Comment_911404
They could have made it like:
- Tremendously decreases power consumption on picking up survivors
- Tremendously increases the amount of blood orbs left by survivors
- Tremendously increases Blood Fury
I was actually hoping for red addons that change game play a little rather than just pure strength which seems to be what they are going for these days.
Make it so when he activates Blood Fury all survivors outside of his TR scream in fear, revealing their location. He gains Undetectable during Demon Dash only.
This increases his map pressure but still gives counter play because now they will know if they scream when he activates Blood Fury that he will have Undetectable and they will be on the lookout.
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You answered the question yourself.
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Really wish they could have buffed the complete trash Iridescent Family Crest. That addon literally should have been grey quality.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911284#Comment_911284
Why would you not? the devs have stated multiple times that the data shown on the kill rates isnt used for balancing.
They have stated numerous times that they use many factors and actual data to make balance changes hence its not a baseless assumption but an assumption off of what we have been told to be the case so it comes down to common sense.
Overall you just dont seem to beleive there is a reason for some changes being made which is fine but thats something you personally feel. For myself when we have all been told multiple times they do infact have the data I beleive it. All I see is you are just arguing the point that you simply dont want to beleive.That then comes down to a trust issue on what you what the devs state.
Yes some poor changes have happened, in fact many have but that doesnt mean this one is one of those. The last Legion and BT change was a bad change what I think should have happened was an addon change and many argued the same case. This one maybe they may have learnt from that mistake and why i said they could have decided to change some addons instead of the perk combination which would affect all the other killers.
Just becasue you dont want to beleive something was needed doesnt mean it wasnt. Since we have no way of knowing the exact data they use then again it comes down to trust in the devs which you cleary dont have so no matter what happens unless you agree with a change then it will never seem to be needed.
"Since we have no way of knowing then again it comes down to trust in the devs"
This is what the entire conversation can be boiled down to. Trust to me is earned by actions and over the last 3+ years of changes I don't believe it is there. This is the crux of our disagreement.
"so no matter what happens unless you agree with a change then it will never seem to be needed."
Not quite. I agree with a change if along with the change good reasoning or data is provided to back up said change.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911294#Comment_911294
Yes. Heavily. If you don't like them collect your own.
I do with well over 4k hours.
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@Scal3r said:
That's the problem with this game, in like 80% of the game killers are king, and the other 20% is the high ranks where survivors destroy.
That is a major issue for balancing I agree.
This is kind of why I think we need balancing that scales based on ranks. IE somehow to make the game easier for survivors at low tiers to different degrees, but make it harder for survivors as you get too higher ranks.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/910023#Comment_910023
Yes this is what we see from the statistics. How blind could I be.
Oh you mean the stats that are heavily flawed and we were told not to draw conclusions from as you are now because of those flaws?
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911168#Comment_911168
No I stated the data clealy showed it wasn't working as intended implying the data they used for the change. No where do I state the data they shared with us so again that's an assumption on your part.
Yes I am assuming the devs have data showing its not working as intended but its not a baseless assumption as they have stated multiple times they do infact use data we are not privy too for balancing.
It works both ways you have zero proof they weren't needed. Peanits commented above that working in combination with some perks made it slow down a lot so my assumptions seems more inline with the thought process.
What peanits said
"Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more."
On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much as I while you can say I made an assumption it was made purely on the fact the change has happened. The devs obviously thought a change was needed hence it has happened so your assumption that it wasn't needed isn't based on the fact it was but what you personally think.
"No I stated the data clealy showed it wasn't working as intended implying the data they used for the change."
That is making an assumption.
"No where do I state the data they shared with us so again that's an assumption on your part."
Why in the world would I assume you were referencing anything that we have never been shown? That just doesn't make any sense at all. We reference data we do have, not assumptions on data we have never seen but think exist.
"Yes I am assuming the devs have data showing its not working as intended but its not a baseless assumption as they have stated multiple times they do infact use data we are not privy too for balancing."
And if they data they choose to give us is heavily skewed and should not be used for conclusions because of this is that flawed, why would you assume the data they haven't shown us is any different?
"It works both ways you have zero proof they weren't needed."
And I am not the one asking for changes because of that reason. You are the one wanting changes. I don't ask for changes unless I have data to back it up.
"Peanits commented above that working in combination with some perks made it slow down a lot so my assumptions seems more inline with the thought process."
As I mentioned before, since we have not seen the data we have no reason to believe it's any more accurate than the data we have been given.
"What peanits said
"Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.""
This is assuming no one chooses to wake up which is quite easy, no one chooses to heal (of which Dying Light is making easier), the killer doesn't kill the obsession AND the killer is using up all addon slots as well as 2 perk slots.
Yeah when the survivors choose not to use a single ounce of counter play handed to them anything will seem strong.
"The devs obviously thought a change was needed hence it has happened so your assumption that it wasn't needed isn't based on the fact it was but what you personally think."
The devs have also made many poor changes in the past, so assuming that it was a needed change because they did it doesn't seem like good reasoning.
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@LordGlint said:
Kinda think if they were gonna drop the percentages so low that they're pretty much non-existent...they should just give them a different effect. An addon giving a 2% slowdown is pretty pointless.
Yeah, they literally need a different effect now if it's gonna be that little. Not worth even running over others now.
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@Knayter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911207#Comment_911207
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911167#Comment_911167
"you will get attacked by the gen rushing clown show so get ready." ?
As in the people who think gens should go as fast as they currently do.
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@Knayter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911167#Comment_911167
I like how people complain about the person that gen rush, like what do you expect people to do? just stand still in the corner of the map? It's literallythe only objective in the game.
You're missing the entire point.
No one is saying they shouldn't do gens as fast as possible. They are saying the gens shouldn't be ABLE to be done as fast as they currently are. Those are 2 very different things.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911101#Comment_911101
I never drew conclusions from any data that's an assumption in your part.
The data the devs have to make this decision is not what we have ever been shown. To assume its off the last kill rates is completely wrong as they stated many factors come into play.
It doesn't matter about the cooldown as blowing a gen has implications. They can teleport, pretend to teleport, may be close by, hit to put them instantly into dream world again, snare cut down loops a lot if you know how to use them etc.
Freddy rework was the best change any killer has had in a while and they can be extremely strong in the right hands. Sometimes changes are needed which you may not agree with but they are needed none the less.
I notice you bypassed the question of would you prefer the perks or add-ons to be changed?
"I never drew conclusions from any data that's an assumption in your part."
"The fact is the data obviously showed it was working too well"
Quite literally your quote, so yes, you did draw conclusions. You made an inference based on the data.
"The data the devs have to make this decision is not what we have ever been shown."
Since we have never been shown it you are completely making an assumption here. You are assuming the devs have data showing his over performance with those addons hence the nerf. We know nothing about that data so you cannot make this assumption.
"It doesn't matter about the cooldown as blowing a gen has implications. They can teleport, pretend to teleport, may be close by, hit to put them instantly into dream world again etc."
Those "implications" are as minor and insignificant as you think his cooldown is. He pretends to teleport, i step back and then continue on my way. Oh he got a hit? K i'll just fail one more, who cares.
"Freddy rework was the best change any killer has had in a while and they can be extremely strong in the right hands."
I agree.
"'Sometimes changes are needed which you may not agree with but they are needed none the less."
You have zero proof they are needed other than assumptions.
"I notice you bypassed the question of would you prefer the perks or add-ons to be changed?"
Actually no, I didn't bypass the question at all."This is assuming anything needed to be changed at all."
My answer was neither.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911057#Comment_911057
While that may sound good on paper it means forcing someone to effectively give their location away which Freddy can then teleport too and also regresses the gen.
The fact is the data obviously showed it was working too well so again do you want them to change the perk or the add-ons? See Legion for what happens when you change a perk instead of what makes it longer than intended.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911059#Comment_911059
Because it was obviously making it too slow from what they wanted.
If they did this with Legion instead of changing borrowed time then it would have been a better solution for that character.
It better to change add-ons than perks as it then affects all the killers not just the one who can make the most use out of it.
"While that may sound good on paper it means forcing someone to effectively give their location away which Freddy can then teleport too and also regresses the gen."
Location doesn't mean much with how strong and numerous loops are. His teleport has a cooldown and his regress kick is getting instantly tapped away soon as he leaves. I don't see the issue here.
"The fact is the data obviously showed it was working too well so again do you want them to change the perk or the add-ons?"
This is assuming anything needed to be changed at all. You're also drawing conclusions from highly inaccurate data that was stated should not be used too draw conclusions, like you are.
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@twistedmonkey said:
Becasue it wasn't just 9% as it was being used in conjunction with slowdown perks to make it more.
Never look at one thing but the overall picture.
So they had a choice to make. Change the perks of change some add-ons which would you say was the right thing to do?
Or just fail one skill check and his addons are non existent?
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The majority of people seem to think she is still nearly just as strong and worthy of S tier.
In all my experience with and against her post changes, she seems significantly weaker. Almost every game I've gone against her at rank 1 she's been destroyed. Her cooldown is very abusable as a survivor. I'd give her maybe A tier now.