ArecBalrin
ArecBalrin
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@Johnny_XMan said:
The problem I have with people who complain about SWF is that a lot of them think that it is because the team was SWF that they lost. When I’m fact there were other factors mixed in.
Skirting close to 'killers just think they deserve to 4k' territory there.
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@BabyNurseIsa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/615383#Comment_615383
I 100% believe accuracy as a stat of hers does not exist. This is probably the most likely thing they will be doing actually. At least I hope.
If it does exist, it's rendered meaningless by the 1.9 changes; even on a full-charge a Nurse can shorten it by aiming lower, as long as they aren't sent flying into the basement.
One change I'd find acceptable is if the Nurse was only able to shorten a full-blink on the first blink, not chain-blinks.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/620086#Comment_620086
This is true. If something is a little weak, that's okay. We can always buff it up until it's in a good spot (Pop Goes The Weasel is a good example of that). If something is overpowered, then everyone gets frustrated while playing against it until it is nerfed, and then more people are frustrated that we nerfed it.
To give an example, compare the outrage from Pop Goes The Weasel to Mettle of Man.
There's also something said about making a killer that breaks the game. To use the example of a killer that can destroy walls (which was actually a prototype way back), that can be a very dangerous thing to do. It can be ridiculously powerful, but then you also run into the issue of "How do you balance it?" If the power breaks the game, you often can't balance it in a way that's fun without making it weak or frustrating to use.
Do you not understand how this creates and maintains a double-standard?
Every single 2nd-chance perk that survivors get is stronger than the last, even if it's designed not to be, due to the cumulative effect of them. Every additional one synergises with the others. Despite this, survivors have been given about two every year and they keep getting them.
Meanwhile, good killers are introduced almost by accident, as was the case with the Spirit. She will be next if the Nurse is gets changed based on lies about her addons. Billy has been held up as an example of a 'perfectly-balanced killer', but there hasn't been a single attempt to make anything like him: a skill-shot with high map-pressure and an insta-down. This is despite killers repeatedly, expressly and notably requesting that their skill-ceiling be raised across the board with a proportionate increase in their usefulness relative to the extra investment in practice and effort. Raise the skill-floor too and that would do something about killers dominating at low ranks.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/620182#Comment_620182
Half the game's lifetime. Half the game's lifetime, all the while with people claiming something you claim they weren't. Perception of nurse and her addons have been the same all this time. You say differently. I'm still waiting for your factual statements..
The factual statements being that in 2016 and 2017, Nurse's addons were before and after her nerfing regarded as liabilities. I identified the key potential change to the game as being patch 1.9, which was released in January 2018.
Is that before or after you started playing DbD?
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/619094#Comment_619094
Was quoting a common argument used by people defending nurse's current state. It should have been obvious in context.
Why do I have to say this a third time? My point is that even when I first started, there were many discussions about both base Nurse and her addons, B-O-T-H. From that time until now, I never saw any discussions about how her addons were a hinderence. What you say is a factual statement is just..not.
You set great store by 'even when you first started', but I keep having to remind you subtley that this was according to you just last year.
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@MegMain98 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/619054#Comment_619054
Nurse is not, has not ever been, nor will she ever be a normal killer. Her power will stay the same. She will always have blinks and be able to go through walls and pallets. You will never be able to loop a Nurse like a Leatherface.
Sorry about it but there isn’t anything to really do about the Nurse to make her like every other killer, her power doesn’t work that way. Unless they remove Nurse, which will never happen.
Base-kit Nurse is in no way overpowered by the way. Her add-ons make her stupidly strong, but baseline Nurse? No.
I have no idea why this post is in reply to me.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/619023#Comment_619023
I didn't quote you even once, but now I will:
Your narrative, a tired one at that, is that "nothing has changed that would warrant current talk of nurse addons being broken".
All of your points stem from that belief, when it is wrong. People have been complaining about both base Nurse and her addons since I started playing the game. Why are you assuming this is a recent discussion? Instead, you choose to blame an ENTIRE group of players (I thought you don't do generalities?), saying survivors simply are choosing not to adapt to blink mechanics.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/619044#Comment_619044
Finally we agree on something, for different reasons. I would love to see the blood bath that would ensue from such a tournament. The nurses would dominate.
First of all, you used quotes for this: "chosen not to adapt because they only want to loop and are lazy". This is not something I have said, nor relevant to anything I have discussed here. Who are you quoting and why are you doing so in a reply to me?
What you call my 'narrative' isn't a narrative; it's an argument. False narratives override facts by subsuming them to context, rather than letting facts determine context. An argument accepts the context as provided by facts. When I say "Nothing has changed that would warrant current talk of Nurse addons being broken", that is a factual statement: it is either true or false. I am not constructing a narrative, but inviting counter-factuals.
You claim it is wrong, but then don't do a damn thing to show why it is when it would be extremely easy were it the case. You just need to point out what changes are relevant to Nurse's addons that would take them from being detrimental in 2017 to becoming what they now are at some point since then. I am so far the only person who had bothered looking into this. I pulled out the one relevant patch and you could maybe have talked about it and argued that it was in fact directly beneficial to Nurse addons, but you didn't. I did half your work for you.
You instead for some reason want to talk about when you first started playing the game; around early-mid 2018, after that patch. The point you're trying to make remains elusive.
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@MegMain98 said:
People are still making Nurse threads? There is like 50 of them.
It’s this simple...
Nurse at base is fine, don’t change ANYTHING about her base-kit.
Nurse’s strong add-ons like five blinks and omega blink need a rework. At MOST, Nurse should have an ultra-rare that gives ONE additional blink but that is all.
People also bring up “skill” and “competitive” when this game requires very little skill on either side and it is NOT meant to be competitive at all. The ONLY killer that requires skill is Huntress and somewhat Nurse.
What more is there to discuss?
There's no grounds at all for claiming 'basekit Nurse is fine, it's the addons'. Nothing about the game has changed that would make the addons the issue. I started this thread to examine how people came to think this was the case, but so far people believe it because 'lots of people believe it' and it's a self-reinforcing cycle.
Trying to follow the chain back to it's source seems fruitless; no one can come up with a self-sustaining argument for why Nurse's addons are the issue. They have not been changed since Nurse was released, nor have they been affected by the rest of the game changing, nor did people just simply learn ways of using them that didn't exist in 2016 and 2017.
The closest there is to a change with a knock-on effect is patch 1.9, which is more an issue of survivors failing to adapt to changes to blink that were intended mainly to help them dodge blinks, which they apparently paid no attention to.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/618820#Comment_618820
You are so fixated on proving that the players trying to get nurse nerfed are trying to create some sort of deception by talking about Nurse addons, and it is rather tiring. Did you know survivors are not a single entity with a single train of thought?
Some people believe nurse base is fine. They commonly say "her addons are broken, but don't touch my base Nurse!" Some people believe nurse base is not fine. They say "she breaks the mechanics of the game." Some people believe even the addons are fine because nurse needs to be this strong. If you read between the lines of what they are trying to say, it would be "I am not a good player and I want free wins as nurse, even against players much better than me."
When people say that she breaks the mechanics of the game, yes, that means they believe her basekit needs to be tuned down. A lot of people say this.
You say people don't talk about the actual blink mechanics...? Seriously? That is a large portion of what people discuss...i have no idea why you are trying to push this narrative, but it is getting old. It truly seems like all you want to do is make up facts and say people are wrong because their thoughts don't align with those facts. You never responded when I said that when I started the game in early-mid 2018, many forum posts were about how Nurse base as well as her addons were too strong. But that doesn't fit your narrative, so why would you respond, right?
People have refuted all of the points you have tried to make. Please read carefully.
The game is the best it has ever been for skilled killer mains. It is still extremely good for skilled survivor mains too. But there are still outliers, things that are too strong for the current state of the game. Whether or not nurse players believed her addons weren't helpful when she was released is truly irelevant to the current situation. Since I started playing this game, nurse has been head and shoulders above every killer, both at base and with her addons. Survivors haven't "chosen not to adapt because they only want to loop and are lazy". That idea is ludicrous.
Skillful killers as a whole are much better than they were, and Skillful survivors as a whole are much better than they were. Claiming the opposite is simply wrong.
I've read carefully and you haven't addressed anything. Everything you're accusing me of, you're doing right in this post. You even quote me as saying something I never have, it doesn't even resemble my opinions.
I do not deal with narratives and generalities; I deal with specifics and standards, both of which you have avoided.
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@Predictabo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/618820#Comment_618820
Why haven't the devs addressed these concerns? It's kinda odd that the least experienced control so much
A lot of this is pure speculation, which the devs do not engage with along with other types of feedback which might come back to haunt them if they gave straight answers. Take it all with a pinch of salt; there's alot of it in these parts.
One belief is that they are scared of the game suddenly failing. The company has a patchy history; it used to be called 'Artificial Mind And Movement' if you want to google that. They never expected DbD to be the success it became, they weren't prepared for it. If you are familar with the plot of Mel Brooks' film The Producers, that's similar to the scenario BHVR would have faced.
BHVR were able to use the proceeds from the game to buy the IP from Starbreeze, who they had developed it for as a for-hire project, so now they own their game in full. This might give the impression that they're swimming in money; but Starbreeze were struggling.
Most of BHVR's income right now is coming from selling DLC for DbD. If the player-base collapsed, it would make the game less attractive to get into or to invest in as a player. So they may be scared of what the majority of players think, or what the players who buy the most DLC think. Many long-time killers don't buy any DLC; I learned my lesson after the Hag and won't pay another penny for anything. It also means killers are ignored, but that doesn't feel like it has ever been different.
They currently have only one game that has been a success and it needs to stay that way until they have another hit at least. Deathgarden looks like a flop though and it's a weird decision to revisit asymmetrical multiplayer so soon, given that people who play DbD are going to keep playing DbD. Maybe they were trying to target people who used to play DbD but don't any more. Maybe they thought their experience developing DbD, the most successful asymmetrical multi-player ever, made them experts on the genre; so Deathgarden failing must have come as a shock and they are being extremely cautious now.
I for one think they should be more open and engaging. They should do what few developers do: explain their method for making decisions, draw up clear standards and then nail themselves to them.
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OP just seems to want to ignore the game mechanics, game-theory and how those dynamics lead to the outcomes. Sorry but no; gen-rushing doesn't happen because of tit-for-tat over camping and tunnelling. Gen-rush(a term I don't like but am using because everyone else is) happens because long-matches tend to benefit killers.
The one time you can be sure most of the time that survivors won't focus down the gens? When someone is on the hook, so why leave? It's not because of altruism or survivors hungry to farm rescues, but because most of the time they're just not doing the gens when someone is hooked. The cause of hook-camping presents its own solution and the more it is used, the less killers who are trying to win will camp a hook.
When no one is on the hook, but gens are being done, what is the killer to do? Survivors have lobbied successfully for chases to just get longer and longer, with this being masked by a chase-detection system that isn't fit for purpose, giving the devs the impression in their data that lots of short chases are happening.
Survivors have always had a counter which they refuse to use. Killers have never had a counter to gens being focused because they can't be in multiple places at once, yet what means we have to shorten chases(the other side of the coin in this debate that keeps getting over-looked) keep getting reduced all the time. Chases are designed to be fun for survivors, not killers.
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@White_Owl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/618563#Comment_618563
The point is still the same, most people are fine with her base kit. Her addons where buffed by the change that allowed the Nurse to not be forced to commit to a long blink, since that allows her to basically remove the penalty of many addons: that's why many think her addons should be reworked (essentially to fit the post 1.9 Nurse) instead of her base kit.
In any case the lack of a proper addons balance after her big nerf at the beginning was due to how BHVR worked with Starbreeze at that time, with everything being rushed and sloppy.
If people(by which you mean mostly survivors) were fine with her basekit, I would have stopped hearing the perennial survivor-meme about the Nurse: "She ignores game mechanics". They're still saying it and that's what gives the game away that addons are merely a wedge-issue, not a legitimate discussion about balance. Basing proposed changes on opportunism creates problems. Talking about mechanics, with specifics in regards to cause and effect, hard-facts; those solve problems.
The Nurse IS committed to a long-blink: the time spent in a blink since 1.9 is based on the time that it was charged. She can not do anything for that base duration, even if she doesn't travel far due to lower-aiming. The response survivors should have is to pay attention to the patch-notes and what addons actually do; but most of the discussion around the Nurse fail to talk about her blink mechanics or even specify what addons are being spoken about. It keeps becoming more clearer that the term 'omegablink' is confusing people more than it is clarifying.
@Predictabo said:
@ArecBalrin so, they be nerf killers based on low rank feedback & buff survivors based on high rank feedback?
That makes no sense. Survivors with the LEAST experience get killers nerfed while Survivors with the MOST experience get survivors buffed? Whut lol
It's a long-standing double-standard and encapsulates almost every complaint killer-mains have about the game's history of development since release.
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The issue of course I have with 'the easy answer' is that the number of changes that have happened in the game are finite; they can be read in under an hour and with CTRL+F, specific changes take seconds to find. Being able to find out what changes could potentially affect addons is not insurmountable; it's a doddle. Yet 'the easy answer' has been presented to me as some kind of monolith.
The game has changed around the Nurse. Fine, disregard anything that obviously isn't relevant to the Nurse's blink or addons: killer-specific changes, bug-fixes for bugs that don't precede the Nurse, pallet changes, map-design where not relevant to blinking dead-zones, etc. The vast majority of changes to the game are ruled-out and we're left with a lot fewer changes to consider.
Attached to this is the idea that 'people just didn't know and now they do', to which I say "100% horse-manure". As soon as someone was onto something after Nurse's uber-nerf, she was tested to destruction and throughout 2017, no one disputed that addons were a liability, not an advantage. The idea that people didn't know that 'omegablink'(of which I've been told of two completely different addon-builds by different people) had such advantages is utter poppycock.
This is not the butterfly-effect; many tiny but un-describable changes somehow just enabling Ataxic Respiration + Catatonic Boy's Treasure to fast-blink a bigger distance or Campbell's Last Breath + Fragile Wheeze allowing course-corrections as survivors try to dodge. The changes are countable, describable and fall-short of any case for changing the Nurse how survivors have always wanted, based on 'OP addons' that were a joke just two years ago and haven't ever changed.
@Predictabo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/618563#Comment_618563
I just don't understand this. The game is based around low ranks, that is clear. How is the worst low rank killer getting nerfed here?
It's not simply that the devs are balancing around the low-ranks. When they want to nerf a killer, they have inevitably responded to feedback based on low-ranks. When they want to buff survivors, they look at high-ranks: what are killers doing and what would stop or frustrate them?
They almost never give buffs that would help low-rank survivors more than high-rank survivors, only the opposite. This is despite the fact that such buffs would help solos more than they would SWF, which people keep claiming is a goal the devs are serious about. I'll believe it when I see it.
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@Scal3r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/618652#Comment_618652
Businesses don't care about ethics, although there are people who genuinely care about people and there experiences with video games, the whole reason we have video games is because of money. The only reason that video games are made to the best of their ability and changed to please people is because it is in your best interest to make people happy to make more money. Not because they want to make you feel good for the sake of being nice. If this game made billions of dollars to make it impossible for one side to win then they would do that
I don't really care for this sub-100 IQ non sequiter.
If taken at face-value; no discussion on this forum about gameplay can be about anything other than 'devs only care about money'. This is not the discussion the devs want here, so regardless of whatever degree it is applicable, it can not be the developers' express view that "We do it it all because of money". There is nothing to discuss if that is the beginning and end of it. So we're not arguing as you think about the merits of making money, but about what the best way of making money is and making a broken game is a poor way to make money. Basing design decisions on money-considerations is a bad way to make money.
Having a game that is utterly borked isn't good for business. Deathgarden should have been a sure-fire hit, because of all the lessons learned from Dead by Daylight. The devs have yet to learn them though and would not be helped one bit by being advised 'just do what players buying the most DLC want you to'.
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Not to mention that balancing based on what nets more money is an appalling set of ethics to adopt and is artistically bankrupt.
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@Scal3r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/618628#Comment_618628
I agree, if anything it should be the other way around, from a business perspective why would you cater to the minority? Realistically you should be thinking about the group that makes you the most money and balancing that to increase profits.
They tried this; it led to spectacularly stupid decisions which anyone who remembers beyond a few months ago knows about.
How strong any feature can be, is the proper measure of how strong it really is. Balance at the top and it becomes balanced across the board: now people who are less-than-best know what improvement looks like, they know what to aim for, they aren't stumbling in the dark.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/617622#Comment_617622
That person sees no difference between pallet looping and old facecamping so yeah, clearly some people have still issues with the definition of an exploit.
I'm going to start reporting posts that lie about what I say and think.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/618375#Comment_618375
False. As a killer, I have beaten SWF team with Trapper, Wraith, Huntress, and Myers (my mains in order with how much I use them)
And as a survivor on a full SWF team, I have been beaten by killers other than Spirit, Billy, and Nurse.
People need to stop toting this false claim that there's only 3 viable killers. If you apply enough pressure and outplay your opponents, almost every killer is viable.
People need to stop this false claim that anything other than the maximum potential is a measure of viability.
The fact that people play at different levels of investment, experience and effort says nothing about the tools they are using; which can only be measured reliably according to how they are used at the level of top-play.
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@White_Owl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/617014#Comment_617014
In the rush I might have missed to say that patch 1.9 not only buffed the Nurse, but made her addons usable. So while in 2016-17 they were mostly considered a hindrance, they now are commonly used, making Nurse effectively stronger in the hands of less experienced players.
So yeah, you make sense when you say 1.9 was the big thing about the Nurse and addons weren't directly changed, but I argue that people are fine with her base kit (even after 1.9) and the fact that "the meme about her addons" is not a recent thing. Devs have been saying they wanted to change her addons since at least 2 years, but in the mean time there were other priorities so the matter got a bit lost, so no, there's nothing suspicious about it.
In any case that passive-aggressive ending wasn't really called for.
The devs saying they wanted to change her addons since 2 years ago is not the same as the Nurse requiring changes due to her addons. If the devs had been honest when they first knee-jerk nerfed the Nurse, they would have quickly made changes to addons back then because they were useless, one of her achievements was impossible without them and it was already one of the hardest feat-achievements. On top of that, Kavanagh's Last Breath became a joke as it buffed chain-blinks whilst removing the ability to do any chain-blinks, unless other addons compensated for the loss of blink charges. That meant blink accuracy so poor as to be useless.
What the devs are doing now is feeding into the baseless narrative calling for Nurse changes based on a lie that addons are making her too-strong. That is being argued with a straight-face, alongside the contradictory claim that she is too-strong because 'she ignores game mechanics', something that is true with or without addons, if we ignore the dishonest framing of it.
Patch 1.9 was meant primarily to help survivors; the devs had this strange idea in their heads that making the visual cues more obvious would be useful, when survivors had already become accustomed to responding to audio cues. The audio cues were now less reliable because her blink-time was based on her charge-time afterwards, where before it was based on her distance travelled. So now a Nurse could aim lower to shorten her distance even on a max-charge, but re-appear in accordance with a longer distance.
These changes do not help the addons so much; they simply change the parameters for predicting the Nurse. My view on that is nuanced: survivors did not adapt, and I never expect them to ever adapt to anything because they have become accustomed to their main exploit-originated playstyle being catered to. When ever it is threatened by killers trying a new idea, survivors will demand and usually get a restriction imposed on killers without justification.
However, in a parallel world where survivors do learn from mistakes, remember more than a few weeks ago and think ahead more than a few minutes, they still wouldn't have been able to adapt to 1.9 changes. This is because anticipation is faster than reaction: a visual cue helps more with reactions, but no reaction is so fast it can match anticipation. Anticipation is what an audio cue helps with: the Nurse inhaling says she's started charging and the next sound out of her says she's blinking, the difference between tells both the killer and the survivor where she will go: they both have almost the exact same information. 1.9 changed that.
If there can be any argument that the Nurse needs nerfing 'because of addons', the best it can manage is a reverting of blink changes in 1.9. Every other argument in favour of nerfs, using addons as an excuse, is the same dishonest garbage that has caused the worst things in the game to be introduced.
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Upstanding pillars of the community that make a point of thanking the bus driver.
Survivors never thank the bus driver. That's why they get camped.
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It's not just 'information' that gives SWF an advantage. It is very important, but if you gave solos the exact same information advantage that SWF currently have, it still wouldn't make them close to 1:1 in their marginal advantages.
For example, it has been established since week 1 of this game that waving your arms on the hook means 'the killer won't leave, do the damn gens'. How often do you see survivors behaving as if they understood what it meant, even in high-ranks?
The main advantage of SWF is even if they don't speak a word, they know they can depend on each other. They will have played together often and will understand each others capabilities and habits, something which that doesn't even come across with direct communication. Because of this they are more able and willing to work for their collective benefit and enjoyment. If you could tell another random player to please let themselves finish on the hook so you can take the hatch, they're less likely to cooperate with this than someone you are in a premade with.
SWF groups form SWF habits and solos form solo habits, which diversify according to ranks but are still distinct from SWF. DbD encourages many bad-habits in solos and attempts by the devs to implement features or change perks so that they affect player behaviour has a patchy record. I'd argue that killers have high-conscienciousness, so engage with behavioural nudging even when they resent it, but survivors don't.
DS was changed to nudge killers away from going after people who have just come off a hook(the devs didn't think to adjust BT to balance this in any way) and now works repeatedly. That is what killers are doing, despite the window for survivors to use it for griefing. Then Mettle of Man had a change to influence survivor behaviour and they've simply stopped using it altogether.
The devs need to explain these decisions better. If they're going to 'nudge' us, they should ask us about how we feel about it first.
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@not_Queen said:
It was legit fun. And if you were missing your timing you were getting rekt anyways. It was a high risk high reward thing.
Vaccum is something different and no, I don't think that should be back. 😨
Quid pro quo?
Revert pallets to a state similar to how they worked before patch 1.1.1 where they didn't have the absurd range, vacuum and huge time-window for the stun. That's when they were fair. You could also have however many pallets on a map and it was balanced: the survivors won or lost pallet stand-offs based on whether they had better timing than the killer and they could't depend on looping them.
Looping should never have become a supported gameplay feature; it was an exploit and it restricted killers legitimately adapting to survivor shenanigans.
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A bug was reported two years ago that some Trapper addons for faster setting speed were not stacking. I had tested this and it worked out like this.
- Trap Setters would not stack with anything, nor off-set setting speed penalties from addons that had such penalities. You equipped this and it would do nothing if you had any other addon that affected setting speed.
- Trapper Gloves would work by themselves and would stack with Fastening Tools, but would not off-set penalties.
- Any addons with penalties to setting speed would only be off-set by Fastening Tools.
Since then, the animation and base setting speed for Trapper has changed, but no patch-notes acknowledge the bugs existed or if they have been fixed. I probably need to test again.
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There is no mention of this in any of the patch-notes, nor was it on a PTB.
However, if they proposed to change it as you describe, then I expect it would have met with strong resistance from killers. It is generally accepted that Whispers is weak earlier in the game and gets stronger as survivors are removed. Whispers does not get more useful if survivors have a good game.
Whispers has a more niche use for Trappers, as it enables them to be confident no one is watching where they are placing a trap.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/617110#Comment_617110
OK, so if you acknowledge the fact that Nurse is not fine maybe care to enlighten us what needs to be changed in her kit and base power instead of pointing fingers and telling people they are misguided.
No, because you're still not listening. This conversation can not happen until the standards we have for balance discussions move a lot higher.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/617021#Comment_617021
OK bud, you are the one here claiming the Nurse is fine and from your previous responses your views on the matter are quite clear. Survivors are to blame, because they do not know what they want - double standards, they refuse to adapt or try to agains the Nurse. You also cling to semantics about omega blink - just stop - it does not matter which addons create omega blink or multiple blinks - what matters is that Nurse's addons make her broken. Of course you will never admit that because you either are a very mediocre Nurse or you are just too blind to see how broken of a killer she can be. To sum things up it does not matter anyway as the devs already are working on her addons and her base power so having all these discussions about the Nurse is kinda pointless. I also will not disect every word or phrase from your post because I know what your opinions are so accusing me of not reading is kinda silly. I formed my opinion based on your multiple posts from multiple threads not only this one which is about the Nurse and guess what - I see a clear pattern in all of them.
You haven't read anything I have had to say. You can't tell me what my views even are.
The Nurse is not fine. The Nurse is not without the need for substantial adjustments. She has always needed them. The problem is those driving this particular bus are blind, drunk and can't read a map. The devs must stop listening to them, they have steered the game into a cul-de-sac where the only changes that can be made represent either paralysis or fudging, hence we have a new-Freddy with no particular speciality, too many abilities and as such too many moving-parts that can go wrong.
They just don't want to be told they're talking bull and their only means of support is leaning on all the other drunk and blind people, hence the only concrete argument when I follow their logic-train back to it's origin is 'lots of people seem to think so'.
If 'lots of people think so' because 'lots of people think so', where's the origin-point? There isn't any.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/616999#Comment_616999
Having any sort of discussion is pointless because man you are just repeating yourself over and over again like a broken record. Your posts are long but they have little to no content about the matter.
Basically you made up a quote, argued with yourself because I do not have the views you wanted to super-impose on me and now are admitting that despite me repeating myself, you can't accurately represent that I think. You just want to settle an argument you don't understand because you can't be bothered, with a KYF match because it's easier.
Such a match would only matter even slightly if I had the views you've assigned me with, so accepting that match would mean accepting your distortion of my position, which I'm of course not going to do.
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@White_Owl said:
What you say makes sense, but people wanted her addons to be reworked since a long time. It's just that in the mean time there were Wraith, Trapper and Freddy at the top of the list of killers in need of changes. Now that they finally reworked Freddy people have simply switched their focus on what's next, and since most people seem fine with her base kit they focus on her addons.
If it's my opening-post you're responding to, then you can't say 'it makes sense' then post that 'people wanted her addons to be reworked since a long time'. The meme about her addons is a recent thing and there have been no changes that could explain how addons became the problem: they have no been changed since she was released in 2016. I explain all of this at the start of the thread: you can agree or disagree with different points, but they all build up to a case against the narrative being pushed about Nurse addons at the moment.
I can tell some people haven't even bothered reading because they want to tell me what my opinions are still.
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/616903#Comment_616903
Timestamp 46:17 - 47:33
It is even stated that propositions like that have been previously mentioned
Of course they've been previously mentioned, but they still have nothing to show for it and it's been years. They're still only 'exploring' options and barely having any dialogue with players about it at all.
If they're worried about backlash, that's even more reason to be debating with players, not avoiding it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/616888#Comment_616888
Arec it is so easy to say "survivors failed to adjust to the changes and therefore cannot adapt and dodge blinks". Sorry but that is not how the Nurse works bud. Try playing vs. competent Nurse and trust me once she sees you you are dead and it is only the matter of seconds. That is the main problem as well - survivors have very limited options vs. the Nurse and her insane chase potential, map pressure along with lethality makes her OP. Survivors simply do not have enough time to look for totems, do gens, save others, heal etc. if Nurse choses to tunnel or play scummy or slug. Add moris to the mix or perks like Make Your Choice and most survivors despite being SWF or not will crumble under the pressure of the Nurse. That is not balance for me. You also mentioned they changed the way she blinks, yes - that was single most powerful buff she got. Nothing in the game is affecting the Nurse and with all the recent survivor nerfs she is becoming stronger and stronger with each patch. This is not how balancing the game should look like.
Also I said it before and I will say it again - please accpt KYF challenge vs pro Nurse. I seriously want to see sweaty SWF stomping great Nurse player time and time again till I see tears. So far no one on the forum is ballsy enough to do it, which makes me sad.
Sorry, but who are you quoting there? I'm not going to have a discussion with you based on you making things up about what I've said, what I think and bottom-scraping standards where nothing matters and words don't mean anything.
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/615787#Comment_615787
An example of that being?
Well, everyone who was here in 2016 does know the devs said they 'never want anyone to feel absolutely safe, there should be no place on the map where that is actually the case'.
A few weeks later, they buffed pallets to make them exactly that and pallet-looping was born.
There's also the time killers lost auras for hooks with survivors on them. They just no longer appeared, so we could no longer see where we had hooked someone if we left. The devs said it was a bug they were working on fixing, until a few months later when they said it was a deliberate change they had no plans on reversing. One day the patch-notes said they had fixed the 'bug' with hook-auras. We never found out which version of these two conflicting narratives about it was true.
I can go on, but I'm still waiting to hear where the devs have expressed any clear indication at all that they are taking planning on closing the gap between solo and SWF, or if this is just yet another vague remark they may have said and then never answered any questions about or given details. It's almost as if they do this just to placate people and have no real plans beyond shovelling DLC.
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@scorpio said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/603926#Comment_603926
1) Because she does! But that doesn’t have to mean she’s OP. The fact that she’s ignores game mechanics though means her add ons need to be very carefully thought out. Right now, Omega Blink is just way too strong, and the fact that ANYONE is defending its existence is very troubling to me. Most of her add ons have downsides because without them, she’s too strong. And yet, Omega gives you a longer blink, a faster blink, and a faster charge (because the charge is the same, but you go further, so for example let’s say to go 10 meters with base kit the charge is 3 seconds, but with Omega you can go 10 meters with a 1.5 second charge. Idk the actual numbers these are just examples to demonstrate the point). The Omega build doesn’t seem to have a downside and that’s my main issue with Nurse. I also don’t think she needs more than 2 blinks but I’d put an absolute cap at 3 tops.
2) People complained that a lot of stuff was OP earlier in the game’s life that they’ve learned to counter. Also just because some people complain it doesn’t mean the entire community agrees. I don’t think base kit Nurse is OP now but when I first started playing? She seemed impossible to beat. As people get better, their opinions change, and survivors in this game have gotten way better over time, which is why you see most people saying her add ons are the problem now and not her base kit, so I’m not sure what old opinions have to do with anything. People also thought OG Freddy was OP upon release. Doesn’t make it true, it just means when you don’t know how to counter something it feels OP, until you learn to counter it.
I think you missed the point regarding 'she ignores game mechanics'. That is an old survivor-meme, but it's one which is incompatible with the claim that 'Nurse basekit is fine, it's just her addons' for anyone who is trying to at least pretend to be honest.
Different people have given different versions of what is meant by 'omegablink' and you haven't said in this thread at least what addons you think represent 'omegablink' so we can hardly have a reasoned discussion about that. I vaguely remember someone and it might have been you, saying that you regard 'omegablink' to be the range-addons: Ataxic Respiration, Catatonic Boy's Treasure and the one no-one uses, Wooden Horse.
Others have told me 'omegablink' is the chain-blink increases, but I'll address yours exactly how I did in the other thread: these are the very same addons which were the most problematic in 2017. Accuracy has mattered more since Nurse had her move-speed nerfed to the point where she could no longer do a conventional chase(she moves slower than a running survivor); these addons destroy accuracy over distance.
When the devs changed how blinking works in patch 1.9, it was to help survivors dodge blinks but survivors did nothing to adjust to the changes. A Nurse can't run range-addons with chain-blink addons and maintain any accuracy: they have to choose one version of 'omegablink' over the other. When Ataxic + Catatonic are being run together, the response is simple: run in a straight-line away from the Nurse then make a hard turn on the second-blink. The Nurse has less accuracy and blink-time since 1.9 is based on charge-time rather than distance travelled: they are stuck in the blink.
The same very low and dishonest standards that were claiming basekit Nurse was broken because she 'ignores mechanics' back in 2016/17 are being applied to the new narrative that it's her addons that are the problem. There is no evidence to support this; it's just being used because group-think is all some people have and here's an opportunity. It's the standard 'not all survivors play optimally, which is why killers need nerfing' all over again. This has to stop.
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/615660#Comment_615660
Could you please explain how that had anything to do with what I said?
Any statement regarding 'what the devs want' or 'what the devs say' needs to be weighed against the facts of 'what the devs have actually done', because that is the only indicator we have of their future behaviour.
If the devs really wanted what you say(and what makes you think that it is true?), there's a whole load of things which have happened that don't make sense if it's true.
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@indieeden7 said:
Do people not realise that the devs want to buff solo survivors in order to buff killers? They are making solo players as strong as SWF so that they can balance killers around SWF groups.
This would be more believable if killers were not getting opaque re-designs where people are left guessing the purpose and all consensus is being formed purely on novelty-factor alone. That is where we are with new-Freddy right now; a character seemingly re-designed for no reason other than to get rid of old-Freddy because survivors weren't having enough fun with him.
It would be more believable if the devs didn't buy into the nonsense spouted by some streamers that survivors are balanced because 'not everyone plays optimally', but killers are nerfed on that basis whilst also being measured in terms of high-rank performance when it suits them. The double-standard has to be binned by the devs, vocally.
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@YaiPa said:
The game had more souls and generally looked better in terms of graphic and animations back in the days. But they had to cut on many things due to claudette being invisible, and the fact that, despite how good that trap set, killers can't really waste time nowdays.
The video though features the fabled 'machine gun build' on the Trapper, which adequately enabled killers to save time and was the only defense against the hook-swarm plays that survivors engaged in immediately following Myers getting nerfed days after he was released(he could stalk multiple survivors originally, then they took that away for two years).
Survivors of course demanded that perk combination be nerfed, namely that STBFL and Unrelenting no longer be stackable, which is ironic seeing as survivors continued to see 2nd-chance perks getting stacked. The devs were so scared though they nerfed the perks beyond what survivors even asked for: Unrelenting was made useless and STBFL became dependent on the horribly-unreliable system for detecting when you're 'in a chase'. Rather than fix that system, they just gave STBFL a 5-second grace period when a chase dropped.
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The FoV is the same actually, what changed was the killer-cam PoV: the camera is literally further forwards than it's supposed to be, meaning survivors can stand underneath it and it will clip into their heads if the killer looks down.
That has been the case since Patch 1.4, when the game was updated with a newer version of Unreal Engine 4. The change to killer PoV was apparently unintentional and when the devs acknowledged it, they said so but that they had no intention of ever fixing it. It's also that update which led to flashlight blindness causing problems with high-end monitors that can display brighter luminance, effectively damaging the eyes of the player looking at the screen. The issue was reported immediately but as it only affected killers, it would be 17 months before the devs did anything about it, which was a simple swapping of the texture. This was a potential health-hazard, but they were in no hurry. Most games warn about Epilepsy risks, but no such warning was made about damage to eyesight.
Yet people think I have it in for the devs just for the hell of it.
Regarding that patch, not all the detail made the transition: a lot of HDR pixel-shader effects for example. Legacy cosmetics used to glow very bright and now just don't at all. It's been two and a half years, so I don't think that's coming back.
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@Horus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/614809#Comment_614809
Heck no bloodlust is needed to stop survs from using near infinites loops and besides blood lust is situational at best thanks to chases getting broken every 10 seconds
It doesn't do a thing against infinites or the 'pallet-loops' it was supposedly meant for. The flaws in it were also obvious during its PTB, but weren't fixed because it was never meant to have any real effect on the game beyond the devs being seen to be doing something.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/614809#Comment_614809
Actually, Bloodlust is a compensation mechanic for killers who happen to get bad map RNG. It's not supposed to stop looping, it's supposed to stop any nonsense survivors can do when they hit the map lottery (I.E. Lumpkin Lane)
Well this is new. When it was introduced, the dev-stream was talking about it helping pallet-looping, but the devs didn't know what pallet-looping was. Despite killers feedback making this very clear, they actually kept nerfing Bloodlust during its PTB for being 'too strong against pallet-looping'. Again, their 'pallet-looping' and actual pallet-looping were two different things.
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@DocOctober said:
Sounds like Bloodlust with extra steps, but interesting.
This makes it sound worse. Bloodlust needs removing from the game so the devs can't use it to pretend they addressed pallet-looping.
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@SpyMature said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/614776#Comment_614776
I framed all of this in a contex that this ONLY affects DS, without any other Obsession perks in mind would it be other Survivor perks or Killer's.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/614658#Comment_614658
Here I mention in my last sentence that this affects ONLY DS.
And you're still fudging this. We're supposed to still believe you though.
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@SpyMature said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/614749#Comment_614749
I'm seeing an Apple on the table and say it's an Apple.
Another person comes by and asks if that's an Apple, I answer that it is indeed an apple.
Another person comes by and asks if that's a Watermelon, I answer that it's not, and perhaps the person should pay closer attention.
The same person says again that it's a Watermelon, I answer that it's not Watermelon, and the guy next to us already explained to you that it's in fact an Apple.
The same person calls both of us liars, and says that it being an Apple makes no sense, and it's most certainly is a Watermelon.
No, you're saying something is meant to help 'against tunnelling' which in the context you've framed would require killers have a malus imposed on them. You're asked to clarify the framing, which you botch multiple times and it also doesn't square-up with the killer 'seeing no Obsession at the start of the match' meaning they can 'tunnel all they like and benefit from it'.
You don't get to call your Gordian-knot an 'apple'.
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Hold on, clarification; you did say that, but decided to add BLOCK CAPITALS as if that would make it any clearer who you were talking about, the survivor or killer.
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@SpyMature said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/614717#Comment_614717
How is it too late? Too late for what? Do you understand the other guy's explanation? If not, then I don't even know how to explain my Idea to you, so I won't even bother.
You titled the thread "An update to Decisive Strike that would help against tunnelling even if no survivor brought it". This makes nonsense of the subsequent non-explanations, including NMCKE's. This along with your opening-post is the only honest thing you have said.
It's what prompted Judgement to ask for clarification, to which you gave a fudged answer to evade clarififying it because you did mean to override the killer's Obsession perks as long as survivors were only running DS, to help them 'against tunnelling'.
If you really meant what you said when you quoted yourself as saying something you never actually did say..
"This would help against tunneling, because if the killer sees at the start of the match that no one is the obsession, AND THEY'RE NOT RUNNING ANY OBSESSION PERKS, then they can tunnel survivors all they like and benefit from it."
...this is the opposite of helping survivors 'against tunnelling'. It's a complete reversal.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/614625#Comment_614625
Survivors can respond by not letting the hooked survivor stay hooked for too long, which is quite easy since the killer has to travel to a generator in order to get any use from this effect.
You can also loop the killer or stealth it out until you know the killer doesn't have anymore power. Tap regressing generators to start the Ruin part, so you don't have to deal with it later. Of course numbers can be tweaked, but you should get the basic idea! :)
Okay, now I'm getting it but my concerns have become worse. This starts to resemble features that are coercive towards killers and which many killers resent, such as the changes to DS which is said to be 'anti-tunnelling' but is really 'anti-killer-doing-their-job-effectively'.
The killer is still left with the catch-22 decision to stay or leave a hook as is currently, except now the choice they are left with is to either chase the first survivor they see or start a generator regressing. They risk losing one or the other by picking either.
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@SpyMature said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/614706#Comment_614706
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/614686#Comment_614686
This guy basically explain everything I meant
Too late, you were asked straightforward questions for clarification and fluffed it, blaming others for 'not reading'.
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@SpyMature said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/614661#Comment_614661
*Facepalm*
Do you guys even read what I wrote before commenting?
"This would help against tunneling, because if the killer sees at the start of the match that no one is the obsession, AND THEY'RE NOT RUNNING ANY OBSESSION PERKS, then they can tunnel survivors all they like and benefit from it."
The problem is I did read and you were asked to clarify something, which you didn't. You were asked a question particularly pertaining to killers using obsession perks and you answered as if killers didn't matter.
The fact you've been dodged twice now indicates to me that this is the actual purpose of your suggestion. Survivor gonna survivor, as usual.
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So people will equip it just to deny the killer perks until DS is triggered, which the survivor can simply opt not to do when picked up.
This is why survivor-memes are real.
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It should be mentioned that the 'nerfs to Self-Care' didn't happen. There was a nerf to base healing-speed; it was increased from 12 seconds to 16, which indirectly affects SC by adding a whopping 8 seconds without Botany Knowledge which was buffed in the same patch(2.3).
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@SovererignKing said:
Patch 1.4.0 - Revert the change of Survivors hit boxes being made smaller. That way they can’t hug objects closer than Killers and get a minimum of 3 Loops out of everything.
Is the hit-box the same as the collusion-box? Survivors have always been able to loop objects the way they do; it's just the killer would still eventually catch them if not for infinites and then later pallets. That brings me to my desired reversion..
The unjustified pallet buffs, both listed and unlisted, from Patch 1.1.1, August 30th 2016. This is what enabled looping to really remain viable after the devs finally accepted they had to do something about infinites.
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I can concede she needs changes, based on an understanding that survivors must now accept the same standards that killers are held to: no more 'not everyone is SWF and can be expected to play optimally'.
The current narrative that pushes for her to be nerfed though is reeking with cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy and amnesia. Most people can't muster a better argument than 'everybody thinks this'.
So Nurse should be nerfed because of group-think, apparently.