Troylus
Troylus
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A couple months ago, I proposed a hatch solution that would also remedy this problem. The short version is that the killer auto-closes the hatch when finding it and gets to see the remaining survivors aura for a while in exchange. A new hatch spawns a little while after that.
Both the hatch stand off and the last survivor hideout problem are solved.
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Earned out the full Wraith.
Bought the full Doc (as a show of support for BHVR, plus I like it)
Working towards the full Trapper now. -
Hmmm. My experience on both sides of the event has been quite different. Most games have felt pretty friendly to me.
When I play killer, I telegraph hard that I'm willing to play nice at the beginning of the match by not attacking any survivors I find harvesting nectar and just nodding at them instead. Most survivors (but not all!) seem to get it.
I've noticed that if even one survivor in the group of 4 gets it, it is likely that the others will figure it out too when they see that I'm not guarding any hooks I do, but instead just standing off to the side at a distance.
Sometimes later in the game a friendly survivor will even wave me over and point at where an unfriendly "try hard" survivor might be hiding - offering them up to me - which is always a fun time.
When I've played survivor, the instant I see the killer I walk towards them and do the come over gesture. About half of the killers will nod their heads and come down and hook me - nodding their head again when I'm on the hook. I know that we've got an understanding at that point and I'll be able to harvest in peace for the rest of the game.
The other half of killers will just mow me down mercilessly as a free hook, but then I'll know that this particular killer isn't interested in "playing nice" and I can change tactics for the remainder of that game.
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I doubt that DDoS attacks are a major issue for DbD players - or even a minor one.
The OP claims that he (or she?) is being targeted by a former friend and that DbD might be somehow be related in that attacker discovering his (or her?) IP address. Possibly. Maybe.
However, the solution here isn't to require that BHVR change its business model to accommodate your suspicions.
The solution is for you to take personal responsibility for your concerns or, if solving the alleged issues with your frenemy is too onerous, to give up your online gaming altogether.
BHVR is not your parent or guardian.
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Huh. Maybe I'm just lucky. I've had several games where everyone started playing nice - killer and survivor - once a survivor or two offered themselves up as gifts.
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Well done BHVR! Player goodwill (and sales of cosmetics) will likely be increased by this.
You have chosen WISELY.
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@Dwight_Confusion said:
Just thank you so much Behaviour and @not_Queen for adding the extra set.
Very kind of you guys and I feel like we were valued and listened to.
Now you guys all need to give back and spend a little too. Support our awesome game!!!
THIS!
And, yes, @Dwight_Confusion I think you played a role in this change. Like you, I too give BHVR props for listening to the fan base and making the change.
Player Goodwill Leveled Up!
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As a further thought, after uncapping the limits on the vials, BHVR could've said that the option to get the new skins (by play or by purchase) would end with the event.
They could've said the skins MIGHT be available in the future, but that they would NEVER be available again via an event OR AT THE REDUCED PRICES that they are being offered during the event.
This sort of explanation creates perceived value in the players via market scarcity. Players who couldn't complete enough vials to unlock everything would feel compelled to purchase the rest.
Bam! BHVR makes more money on sales AND the player base is happier because they feel like they're getting stuff for free or they're making the choice to buy what they don't have the time to play to get at a discount.
See how this PR stuff is supposed to work?
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@Dreamnomad said:
The reward after you have earned the cosmetics is a buttload of bloodpoints. That is the reward to continue playing.
Totally true - but its more like a consolation reward for no longer being able to participate in the event properly. Many players are expressing disappointment rather than excitement - and that's the opposite of the reaction you want.
To clarify, I'm not a naysayer on the event at all. As a fan of the game, I think it's great that they're doing this!
I just think BHVR could've been smarter in the conditions of the event and got a more universally positive reaction rather than the mixed one they're getting now.
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@Dwight_Confusion said:
There's no reason why they can't let it be 2 outfits/6 pieces for 30 and then 100 total vials. Why not?
This!
Capping the number of vials you can get ISN'T NECESSARY because the amount of time that the event runs is ALREADY CAPPED.
Sure, some crazy players might play the entire time to try and unlock everything, but so what?! That's just GOOD for the game and for the community.
'
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Thanks for the explanation Dreamnomad.
Do you think more killers are running NOED now than before? Or does it seem to be about the same?
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I think you're right that more survivors will look for totems - but a survivor hunting for or cleansing a totem isn't fixing a generator.
So it seems like a change intended to slow down the pace of the game - much like how the devs said they were extending the healing time - only this explanation for why NOED was buffed wasn't stated. I just think that's why they did it.
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There has been a fair amount of discussion on this. Determining the proper length of time for the chase to last is a contentious issue - but an important one to resolve. Once Survivors learn that the last one of them will get FREE GATES at the end, the incentive for them to keep doing generators goes down if things aren't going well for them. Rather, it is better to hide and just wait it out until you're the last survivor - and then make your run for the free gates.
A good potential solution might be to adjust the time of the final chase based upon how many generators were still left to be done. Maybe add 10 seconds for each one that was left in addition to the base 60 seconds:
So, 1 Gen left = total of 70 seconds. 2 Gens = 80, 3 Gens = 90, etc.
This would keep survivors interested in going the generators all the way till the end.
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@Asssthetic said:
Another idea I had about this mechanic is to have gens being worked on (as if one survivor is on it) till the last 3 or however remaining gens are complete. This would mean that if a gen needed 60 charges to get complete and another needed all 80 charges, then the max time would be 80 seconds (1 charge per second for a gen being worked on). This would reflect the gameplay of the survivors and determine whether or not the time would be short or not.
This is interesting. I suppose the idea could be justified by something like "the Entity is infusing the remaining generators with it's power" and the Survivor Aura / Time till Free Gates would be based on how close the survivors were to actually powering up the gates. If they were a long ways off - the time would be long. If they were really close - the time would be short. This mechanic would be fairly self-balancing because it would always be in the survivors best interest - even if the game is going badly for them - to keep working on generators so as to shorten the final Endgame sequence towards the lone survivor's favor. Many of the problems I brought up would be mitigated by this self-balancing mechanic.
I think it's a good idea worth considering!
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Thanks FrenziedRoach. That's good to know.
I think we're all on the same page here. We all agree that the Hatch standoff is pretty anti-climactic.
Horvath's suggestion gets at what we all think would be much better - some engagement and excitement at the end of the game for when there is only one survivor left but all the generators aren't done.
Unfortunately, to me it looks a bit to me like what we call a "rookie design mistake". Rather than addressing the core gameplay issue, it scrambles things up by introducing something new that sounds like it might work - but could also create a whole host of new issues. The endgame may not actually be better - it might just be different - and could wind up significantly worse.
The real issue - as I see it - is that the current Hatch design encourages killers that find it to just stop dead and wait for the survivor to come around. That is their best play in the situation. This is what results in the standoff. (There is NO issue if the survivor finds the Hatch first. They just exit.)
So solving the issue should focus on giving the killer something to do when he or she finds the Hatch that gets things going again. This is why I think closing it in exchange for the aura of the survivor is an easy and direct solution. It gets the killer back into gameplay right away and likely initiates a chase very shortly thereafter. But, perhaps more importantly, it doesn't introduce a bunch of new problems and balance issues - like what I think giving away Free Gates after a delay would probably do.
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I don't recall clearly - but didn't they previously spawn the Hatch near the start of the match?
Then the Dev's realized that revealing this too early was bad for encouraging people to do generators - so now it doesn't show up until after the threshold of having more generators completed than there are survivors left alive is met. (In other words, some generators have to be done at some point to make the Hatch even appear at all.)
In contrast the 2 Exit gates are revealed right at the start of the game. If you know they're going to open eventually - irrespective of how many generators are done - I fear gameplay overall will suffer - especially for solo-players. Stealthy, non-contributing survivors will be rewarded for their non-play.
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I suppose it is possible for the Devs to try and dial-in the delay before the Free Gates to try and make things more equitable between the killer and survivor - but this seem fraught with all kinds of new problems because whatever time amount they settle on will seem to favor either survivor or the killer.
Hence, I would bet that, before too long, players would be saying the liked the old Hatch gameplay better than the new Free Gates gameplay just because of how divided the community might become over how much time before the free escape is the right amount.
I think working to fix the existing Hatch gameplay to make it active for both players is a better solution than giving away Free Gates after a delay.
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I don't see how opening the exit gates for free 60 seconds after the next to last survivor is sacrificed is a chase against time. The survivor doesn't die when the time expires - rather the survivor gets some big easy outs.
I think we need to think this proposal through in terms of how it incentivizes the killer and the survivors to play:
The next to last survivor will know that he or she is about to be rewarded with the free exit gates and so will move across the map away from his or her hooked and dying friend to find a relatively safe spot near the gates.
Sacrifice will happen. Timer will start. Killer will see the aura and begin crossing the map to get the last survivor.
30-45 seconds later, the killer will complete the map traversal and arrive in the vicinity of the lone survivor. There will be a chase lasting 10-20 seconds during which time the killer will MAYBE get a hit in.
Gates will open. Survivor will waltz out through them - teabagging along the way at the higher ranks.
So, killers will respond to the potential for Free Gates by slugging their last two survivors whenever they can.
Meanwhile, solo-player survivors will quickly realize that, when a game is going against them, they should quit working on gens at all and just find their safe space near an exit in preparation for the free escape to come.
End result: Gameplay likely gets worse, not better.
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Horvath's proposed solution may make the endgame better and more interesting, but it will encourage survivors to camp the hatch if it continues to appear before the next to last survivor is sacrificed (like it does now). It could strongly hurt single player survivor games as the last couple of survivors will be even more interested in finding the hatch than in progressing the game via generators.
HOWEVER, make it so that the hatch doesn't spawn until the 60 seconds is up (now giving the lone survivor 3 potential escape routes: hatch or either opened gate) and this idea is stronger. It does seem like it will favor the survivor somewhat however as escaping via one of three routes - two of which are lit up and obvious - seems ridiculously easy in most cases.
Also, opening up the gates for free seems kinda lame to me. If the survivor wants those exits, seems like he or she should have to power up the gens to get them. I mean, what if the killer was rocking it and the survivors only got 2 gens before the killer sacc'ed off 3 survivors? That last survivor gets 3 escape routes as a reward for the killer's superior play? Doesn't this just encourage single-player survivors to hide and wait near an exit gate because they know the exit gates are going to open for them eventually anyway after all the other survivors are dead?
So, I think Horvath's solution will ultimately hurt solo player survivor games - probably slowing them down as soon as the killer starts to get an advantage as the remaining survivors will just go into stealth mode and blow off doing any more generators.
Never fear! I earlier proposed a SIMPLER hatch solution that has a similar (superior?) impact on the endgame:
Upon finding it, allow the killer to close the hatch in exchange for seeing the aura of the last survivor for a short period of time. After that period, spawn a new opened hatch somewhere in the level. No hatch standoff gameplay - just let the survivor out if they get to an opened hatch first.
Rinse and repeat until the survivor escapes via the ever-spawning hatches or the killer gets him or her.
The endgame is now very active as both killer and survivor are desperately hunting for the hatch as finding it first is an instant win for the survivor and finding it first is a huge advantage for the killer.
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Good Insights, OP.
I can see why the devs want to nerf BL - because of the technical issues created by such a big speed discrepancy between survivors and killer. But this nerf seems to undo the reasons for having it in the game as a "safety valve" to cut short endless chases in the first place.
Personally, I think that the BL nerfs could work if the speeds were reduced, but the times to achieve each BL level were significantly reduced - maybe about half: 9 seconds to BL1, 18 to BL2, and 27 for BL 3. You'd end up with the same BL2 we see now happening three seconds earlier - but no overpowered current BL3 potential.
Seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me.
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@Bravo0413 said:
They should add in something like what the hunter has in death garden. Like a boost of speed to cross the maps faster.. the killer is powered by an evil entity right now if I'm not playing nurse or Billy I dont feel powerful whatsoeverI didn't know this was a DeathGarden solution. It does seem viable.
And, incidentally, mirrors my original suggestion precisely.
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Thanks for the ongoing feedback in this thread!
Based on some responses, I think that maybe my original suggestion may not have given enough information to demonstrate how simple, fair, and easy to implement given current game mechanics it is.
It's simple to understand. Both killer and last survivor want to find the hatch first because it swings the game in their favor. For the survivor, its an instant win. For the killer, it briefly tells him where the survivor is and brings him or her one step closer to victory. It's also better for both because it ends the standoff that nearly everyone thinks is pretty lame gameplay.
Its fair because both killer and survivor have a hypothetical equal chance of finding the hatch first. Of course, in practice, one will always be closer or one may have noticed where the hatch had spawned previously before it opened - but that's just an outcome of gameplay not a design problem.
And, MOST IMPORTANTLY, this solution is very easy to implement and test using existing game mechanics. There are no new assets needed and no changes that need to be made to either the killer or survivor. Just the hatch spawning/closing subroutine needs to be slightly modified because the game already spawns the hatch via a call to that subroutine when certain conditions are met. All that needs to be done is make some small changes to those conditions - quite possibly amounting to just a few lines of code.
Which means, my proposed solution could be ready for feedback via a PTB within a matter of minutes.
To me, that's the real strength of this proposal - you can try it out very easily to see what the player base thinks.
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I generally agree with your analysis, although Megawaffle does make a good point that killers must spend BP on add-ons that don't carry between games. They earn more on average, but their cost per game is also generally higher too - I think.
Anyway, my question is, what survivor behaviors do you think should award more BP? The implication here is that whatever behaviors you incentivise, you'll wind up getting more of.
Your original post suggests that you feel like there should be a better return on time invested. (And I agree!)
Crazy idea: do you think that maybe there should be bonus BP based upon the order of your survival? That is, if you make it through to the end and you're the last survivor out, you get a bonus? (This would encourage/reward survivors to stick around longer than their companions. Is that desirable behavior?)
For example: First to Escape is worth 5K, Second is 6K, Third is 7K, and Last is 8K?
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The gameplay economics of the current design encourage the standoff behavior whenever the killer gets to the hatch first
However, most people agree that this isn't fun or very interesting for either survivor or killer.
Hence, we should be looking for a design change that incentivizes both the killer and the survivor to be active for the duration of the hatch sequence of gameplay.
Hence, my proposed solution that ends the standoff while encouraging ongoing activity for both participants.
It's also very easy to implement using existing game mechanics (very little new code needs to be written and all assets already exist) so it could be tested within the matter of a few minutes to see how well it works.
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Killers will hate giving up a perk slot to get that, but not a bad idea. You could also set it to the more gens that need to be finished the more time their auras are to be seen. (3 gens to go 9 seconds, 2 gens then 6 seconds, 1 gen to go then 3 seconds)
To be honest, I have no idea what should be done about the hatch. I think it is needed for those times killers just decimate the survivor team, otherwise you have 1 survivor with 3 gens left to do, who loses hope and just DCs. In my opinion, the hatch gives survivors and killers both something to work for.
I do like the idea of you brainstorming, now if only the devs would come by the forums more often. (if the devs do take your idea I would love to see them give you credit. maybe your name graffiti art style on a wall.)
I think you're right regarding the relative weakness of the Perk - but it was just an idea. I suppose it could be paired with some other Remember Me-like effect to make it more appealing. That is: Powering the Exit gates now requires an additional 10/15/20 seconds AND closing the hatch gives the increased aura times. Still kind of fits with the "Door of Doom" theme.
I think you're spot on regarding why the hatch exists in the first place. The devs want to give the final survivor something to do when otherwise they'd have no hope of escape. Problem with the current design is that the killer has no motivation to do anything upon finding the hatch before the survivor does. So he or she just stands there and waits. The game comes to a halt. Worse, when the survivor finally does come along, there's no motivation for either of them to make the first move - so you get the standoff.
It's bad design.
Ideally, you want to incentivize both the survivor AND the killer into finding the hatch and DOING something when they do. For the survivor, this is easy and works fine - jump in and escape! My proposed solution incentivizes the killer now too and keeps the game moving.
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@Thatbrownmonster said:
I like this but still feel hatch stand offs would still be a thingBasically survivors would loop on and on until they found the next hatch
I think the standoff would end because under my proposal the killer could no longer grab the survivor upon his or her jumping in. Hence, the survivor is motivated to make a dash for it and the killer is motivated to close it to prevent the escape. No more standoff.
Looping and chasing round and round would still be possible with the last survivor, true. But that is the case now anyway. Perhaps the duration of the revealed aura increases each time the killer closes the hatch making this more difficult the longer the end game goes.
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Conversely, you could have survivor perks that increase the rate at which the new hatch spawns once the old one is closed by the killer.
Perk: Final Favor - When the hatch door is closed, the Entity will spawn a new one for you 5 / 10 / 15 seconds sooner than normal.
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@Russ76 said:
Troylus said:
* Closing the hatch reveals the aura of the survivor for a few seconds. Killer is now on the way!I think you should state what a few seconds is. My thought is give them 6 seconds as I have heard Killers say they can hardly spin around in less time.
I would say give the survivors a sound so they know it got closed.
Give the hatch a time limit on how long it is there.. let's say 5 mins and if neither side found it close it and start a new hatch. (saw a picture of a bugged hatch on the game map... ie it was barely showing under a wall.. Survivor couldn't use it and killer wouldn't be able to close it)
I think these are good observations. Resetting an unfound hatch after a set amount of time would prevent bugs like the example you gave.
Also, I think the amount of time that a survivor's aura is revealed upon closing a hatch is a good variable to test. Heck, you could even make a perk out of it!
Default time = 3 seconds. Perk: Door of Doom - Closing the hatch now reveals the remaining survivor's aura for and additional 3 / 6 / 9 seconds.