Shoulder The Burden Nerf Sets A Bad Precedent
To be specific, I'm not talking about the shift from Exposed to Broken. That nerf(? sidegrade?) isn't something I particularly mind.
What I'm referring to here is the change where one person using StB turns off everyone else's StB. Even setting aside that it's wholly unnecessary for this perk - multiple uses only even can happen in scenarios that aren't actively throwing is when someone's tunnelled - I truly do not think it's a good precedent for someone else's actions to turn off your perk completely.
The gap between solo queue and SWF is a lot more than just perks, obviously, but part of it is that sometimes, a perk you want to use is at odds with your teammates. Think something like Inner Strength not scaling well when everyone brings it, or when someone brings a boon perk.
For that example, unavoidable and just an annoyance. But, if someone using Inner Strength once genuinely stopped you from using your own at all, it'd be far worse, and that's what we're at risk of here.
Once per trial per survivor is already restrictive enough, and any perk in the game should be balanced around the notion that "once per trial" means "up to four times per trial, depending on how many people bring it". If that means nerfing the effect, I'd argue that's genuinely vastly preferable to being locked out of using your own perks because someone else used theirs first.
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The problem was, that you could abuse it too much in swf, the idea was to prevent this, besides, it still makes sense to bring 2 stb, because what if the person that brought the perk is getting hooked first? It automatically become useless and someone else bringing it as well could still use theirs
It's not really possible to abuse StB because of how it's designed, but even if it were- the right way of fixing that would be to nerf the effect in some way, as opposed to setting a precedent like this.
If this only ever happened to StB it'd be one thing, but a concept being introduced like this makes it seem more reasonable to add it somewhere else, and that's what I'm worried about.
Tbh, the perk should have never existed as a perk to begin with, because it changes fundamental game mechanics, they tinkered with something they shouldn't have, the best case would have been a complete rework
Eh, that's not true either. The only thing it affects heavily is tunneling, which is very much not a fundamental game mechanic.
Tunneling yes, changing hookstages not, that is the equivalent of changing gen progress, it should never happen, I doubt they gonna introduce the deactivation clause for other perks though, except really game breaking ones, but we don't have these after that anymore
i agree in theory only so much as solos cannot see perks in the pre-game lobby. once you're able to co-ordinate builds (if this ever gets added, which i truly hope it does) you'll be able to see that 1/2 people are already using the perk, so you should swap it out of your build. otherwise, it runs the risk (like it currently is, tbh) of being like old old borrowed time, where the perk was so good surely at least someone on your team would run it, and then nobody did. when (if) we get this change, this is a fine precedent to set imo.
Let me break down how I see it used - and I'm not exaggerating here - 100% of the time in my own matches.
SCENARIO 1:
Killer hooks survivor A
Killer hooks survivor B
Killer hooks survivor A again.
Killer leaves the hook. Survivor C unhooks survivor A with Shoulder the Burden. Now no one is on death hook and the killer has been punished for not camping.
Killer hooks survivor A, B, or C and then, once again, leaves the hook. Survivor D unhooks with Shoulder the Burden. Now, once again, the killer has been punished for not camping and now also not tunneling.
SCENARIO 2:
Killer hooks survivor A.
Killer hooks survivor B.
Killer hooks survivor C.
Killer hooks survivor A, B, or C again and leaves the hook.
Survivor D unhooks with Shoulder the Burden. The killer has now been punished not only for not camping or tunneling, but also for spreading hooks.
Deactivating it for all players solves scenario 1.
Yes this happens to me when I'm playing killer.
Yes, EVERY SINGLE TIME I see it used it's one of these two situations.
No, it's not common, but tell me truthfully if you think that the perk cannot be abused after reading this.
Those are the scenarios I can think of where it's used without tunneling, but none of those are particularly crazy powerful outcomes.
Sure, the killer loses the opportunity to potentially get someone out quicker with someone on death hook, but they still gained all the pressure/slowdown from the hooks they're meant to and also still has the same amount of overall objective progression; in the second scenario especially there's no fresh survivor to either take aggro or be the "oh this is the worst chase I could be taking" moment, and everyone is one hook away from imminent danger.
This is use of the perk outside of tunneling, but it is not abuse of the perk.
Of course, I do need to repeat: even if that is abusing and the perk's a huge problem, this specifically is a bad change because it sets a bad precedent.
I know you're not talking about the exposed to broken change, but it's not a sidegrade. Exposed is not visible on the killer UI and many killers do not benefit from exposed survivors because they rely on M2s. This meant that in many situations the downside of StB didn't matter. Now killers will see the survivor become broken on the UI when the perk is used so they know it is in play and can actually play around it. Plus survivors being broken is mostly equally useful on all killers.
That said I fully agree with the idea of survivor perks deactivating other perks. I know for the longest time people were suggesting that DS turns off when the killer downs another survivor and I was always against that idea for a similar reason. Your survivor perks shouldn't be turned off by the actions of other survivors.
I absolutely do think these are crazy powerful outcomes, far moreso than its intended effect of trying to avert tunneling. Because, I stress here, the only survivors who can use it like this are the best of the best groups who understand match pace and are trying as hard as they can to win with good communication.
Getting a survivor onto death hook is one of the most important things you can do as a killer. At minimum it changes the way the team has to play. They need to be careful about how they unhook that person, and then the unhooked player has to play much more cautiously, work on safe gens, try to hide and avoid chase more, and not be the one to take a risk like going for an unhook.
Preferably you want it to happen by around the time you have 2 gens left, and against good teams who actually have the coordination to use the perk like this, even getting the three hooks necessary to put someone on death hook without tunneling can be a big ask to do by the time you're down to 2 gens.
If you're up against such a team and StB gets used against you like this, that's it. You lose. What minimal pressure you were exerting by threatening to remove a player from the match if you find them again just got taken away from you.
And it happened because you weren't camping to punish the StB unhook and put the rescuer on death hook instead.
But in this scenario, that's the first four hooks, right?
StB user has to have 0, two more have to have one each, and one has to be on death hook. That means the fourth hook is the one shifted this way. If you're at two gens left with only four hooks then you have bigger problems than StB going on and you're already looking at playing for a comeback.
I will grant that very aware teams would be the ones to play slightly differently surrounding someone on death hook, but I don't think StB actually changes that. Instead of shuffling the hook state, they'd just have the fresh survivor get in your face while the death hook survivor plays stealthy.
StB just doesn't do that much here. At best it's one of many resources and options the high calibre teams who use it have for the same overall goal, and more realistically it's changing an early death hook survivor to getting a potentially much stronger perk out of the way early without too much fanfare.
And again, just to be clear: My issue is with this change, not any potential change. This change is a bad one because of the wider context of the precedent it sets.
Having a survivor with 0 hooks try to draw aggro isn't the same thing as the survivors shuffling hook states to ensure no one is on death hook. If you're in a situation like this, you typically do not want to be chasing people who haven't been hooked yet unless you can either catch them very quickly and easily or you have a perk that would activate from hooking a fresh survivor. Like Pain Res, Grim Embrace, etc
Typically what happens in my experience in scenarios without StB is just that survivors who haven't been hooked yet will work on more exposed gens to try to draw aggro while more vulnerable survivors try to avoid getting chased in the first place, even if it means having to play much more passively, which is a lot of slowdown for you.
Incidentally by the way this is probably the most effective thing you can do to protect someone who's getting tunneled. Just work on a gen in the killer's face. I see way too many teams (usually my own solo queue teams while I'm getting tunneled) throw themselves at the killer trying to coerce them to stop chasing the person they're tunneling, even taking whole downs for them. Which just creates more pressure as they get slugged and the team has to pick up the slug now.
But doing a gen in the killer's face is a lot more agitating, might actually make them play worse because of it, and creates a lot more space for your ally if they break off to attack you.
"If you're at two gens left with only four hooks then you have bigger problems than StB going on and you're already looking at playing for a comeback."
If you think 4 hooks at 2 gens is the killer doing badly, you really need to see some slightly competent teams. Even 2 hooks is normal at 2 gens.
99% of the time, I don't like this either. In general, I hate the idea of survivor perks being disabled by other survivors or survivor perks having penalties that affect other survivors when they had no choice in it (ie. the preview version of Steadfast we saw several months ago).
Shoulder the Burden is in that 1% where it's such a powerful effect that there really is just no way around it, it's simply too powerful to be allowed to be used more than once and the only way to change that would be to change the effect and at that point it would just be a rework, not a nerf
I agree that reworking borrowed time and heavy nerfing stb right after decreasing antihook protection is kinda overkill. I didn't expect borrowed time to be reworked. Now apart from babysitter there is truly nothing to help tunneled survivor.
Why shouldn't it?
Why are those sacrosanct when, on the killer side, the game has changed so dramatically over the years?
Horror requires dynamism, all stress all the time doesn't work. Tunnelling is just fundamentally anti-horror, but that keeps getting more and more focus.
Tunnelling has ripped this game apart and fundamentally altered its nature and composition, but when survivors level the playing field 'that's just messing with fundamental stuff, and that shouldn't happen'.
When killers got more aura reading than they knew what to do with and axed the concept of stealth and hide-and-seek from the game, those same fundamentals weren't protected either, so why should they be now?
Because if we gonna do that, then there is no reason to not allow killer perks that change gen progress of finished gens, shift gate progress or even shift hook stages as the killer, just look at it the other way around, should killers be able to shift hook stages? No, because that is going to lead to some bs scenarios and it is really powerful, so why should it be okay for survivors to do it, isn't it just as powerful? Answer, it is, it is by far the strongest perk swfs can use, If you want anti tunnel tools then there are other alternatives out there already and you don't even have to use it as an anti tunnel perk, a killer could not tunnel and simply get 2 hooks on the same survivor, while 2 others have 1 and the fourth one was hiding and doesn't have a single hook and can just trade it to get rid of all the pressure, how is that fair? It is just like people "abusing" DS not as anti tunnel, but use it aggressively. They should never ######### around with those kind of changes
No reason? Really?
Aside from the fact that this game is an ASYMMETRICAL, and not everything needs to have a direct opposite copy?
Besides, if you were to make a proper comparison, the killer version of STB would only allow you to undo one gen completion, but at the expense of having all that progress funnelled into other gens, AND those other gens repairing twice as fast for two minutes as well. You really think any killer is going to take that perk? Even if you use it to restore a 3-gen, you're not holding that against +100% repair speed, are you?
If you want to talk about equivalencies, if the strongest thing swiffers can do is undo a turbo-tunnel on one target, guess what that says about tunnelling?
Keeping StB wouldn't need a new perk to have the equivalent on the killer side because they already have it. Basekit, to boot!
Keep in mind, ALL of them got nerfed already too, so this is more lip-service than anything.
How is it NOT fair? You're only pointing at a survivor perk offering a benefit to survivors and going 'wow, that's broken, nerf pls' without ever arguing what exactly is so broken about it!
You don't like it, I get that, but the only thing you're construing is that the perk does a thing and then you're just shutting down from there.
'You're losing all pressure!'
Having four survivors all on one hook stage and one survivor exposed for a very long time is not 'no pressure'. You're not given nothing in return, you're given new opportunities.
Not to mention that every bit of power you're trying to heap onto StB here is something that's just basekit for the killer.
This is ALSO not to mention that this is the ONE situation in which StB is unchanged.
Oh lord, you're one of those.
*Lays on the ground. MENACINGLY!*
My issue is if someone midnlessly go for same survivor to the point where you are hooked 5x, is it truly an issue of the perk? Tunneling got some crazy buffs recently. Less protection duration, clear indicator when the duration ends, rework of BT, nerf of shoulder the burden… I don't think this is good direction. Tunneling should be possible but not easier and after this update if STB or BT remain changed I'm worried that there will be no tool to combat tunneling and killer queues will be insane which I already hate because waiting minutes for killer match is frustrating and more so if the lobby crash and you waited 8mins just to hit ready button again.
"How is it NOT fair? You're only pointing at a survivor perk offering a benefit to survivors and going 'wow, that's broken, nerf pls' without ever arguing what exactly is so broken about it!"
So you just ignored everything I wrote? It is broken, because it can easily deny a kill, do I have to explain to you how a 1v3 is stronger for killer than a 1v4 and that Shoulder is the only perk or mechanic in the game, that can actively do that, by just shifting hook stages? It is broken, because a death hook becomes a non death hook, you literally deny deaths, which is an essential part of the game and a way to pressure and the downside so far was laughably low, that is the gamebreaking thing that goes against core mechanics of the game, what is stronger then denying a teammate dying? And the best part, the perk does the same thing as before even after the nerf, you can still deny a death, it is just more risky now
"Keep in mind, ALL of them got nerfed already too, so this is more lip-service than anything."
They rebuffed DS, buffed babysitter, OTR got nerfed, that is true, but 40 seconds are more than enough for anti tunnel, so it still does it job, BT is in a weird place and could be problematical at some point, DH is still one of the best perks, Bloodrush got buffed into a good anti tunnel perk, every new killer is getting a build in anti camp and anti tunnel feature, so what are you talking about exactly? Nothing of what you said is true so far, that is impressive
Maybe rework will be better, let's say:
Whenever survivor having shoulder the burden gain hook stage, they will be revealed to all other players for 30s once unhooked, if any survivor takes protection hit for the revealed survivor, the unhooked survivor gets 150 % speed boost for 5s
Or
Unhooking survivors has 5s delay and killer is notified of it.
So can flashlights, For the People, Power Struggle… If anything, you could argue those are stronger, because they completely deny hookstates, as opposed to just shifting them around.
The only thing you're on about here so far is just the novelty of it.
And someone else is one hookstate closer to death, that's the counterbalance. You're acting like the hookstate just goes up in smoke!
I think multiple Shoulders per game can defenitly be insanely good.
But I 100% agree that it should not go live like this.
I would add a secondary effect to it:
"If someone else used Shoulder the burden to steal a hookstate, you can't use this effect anymore. Instead you see the aura of the survivor that used it whenever they are within 32 meters of you."
Something like that.
It's not a great effect, but it can help in soloq, doesn't feel as bad as a dead perk slot and doesn't really help swfs.
Everytime I've faced Shoulder the burden stacking, at least one of the people who used it died, coz as soon as I acknowledge it I'm on the unhooker.
I don't see the perk as a problem, its one less chase perk right? Isn't that what we say about killer perks… oh wait
anti-camp basekit Sets A Bad Precedent
so what?
I don't think I'm following, what do you mean by this?
Shoulder The Burden should not exist in this game.
if give killer a perk that make killer can hook other survivor but give hooked survivor hook stage.
and survivor Cannot counter this perk.
you say "Shoulder The Burden Nerf Sets A Bad Precedent"
But there have already been many bad precedents before this.
As killer main I don't mind this perk that much as some others but I defienetly think that either borrowed time or STB change must be reverted or tweaked otherwise we will deny any option to help tunneled teammate.
People don't understand the real downsides of STB:
→ If you are hooked, the perk is useless for rest of the game.
→ if you use it, you must be on 0 hook stages.
→ Using STB gives you hook stage but this means you have 1 less chance to use any hook related perks - resurgence, dead hard, ds…
→ Using STB creates scenario where you become hot target as you can go from 0 to death hook in matter of seconds, if you have antitunnel those will be less likey to be unexpected and won't help you aka you help someone to survive while you hurt yourself to most likely die which is not common to risk for random teammates, therefore it's extremely rare that someone has STB and use it on you.
→ Obviously if killer is not agressively tunneling it does nothing from scenario where STB player rats around to use it.
→ Is very uneffective against proxycamping killers, even more now if it makes you one shot for 2mins.
→ Can be completely negated by stupid randoms farming hooks without checking your perks.
And more…
The only issue I have is if 4 people have shoulder the burden and redistribute their hook stages but tbf I haven't got a single game like this since STB been out. So it's nearly impossible scenario.
How would I personally change it?
→ Using shoulder the burden no longer injures, exposes or cause screams. Can be again used by multiple survivors per game. Every survivor using STB will now have all their perks deactivated for rest of the trial. Which is a huge downside if killer players wants some, this one defienetly worth it. Please let me know what you think. Cheers.
Even if that were true, that doesn't mean we should be adding more bad precedents. We shouldn't want any perk in this game to be fully disabled for you just because a teammate used theirs, unless they revolve around a consumable resource like totems.
Got you. Tbf I haven't played against many STB as it's very selfless perk. I understand the frustrations of it but imagine those scenarios happen on both sides.
Scenario 1:
4 gens are done, last is about to pop.
Survivor ABC are one hook from death, survivor D is carried to the hook while survivor don't know pain res wasn't used on him yet. Boom 99 % gen to 79 % into DMS into high mobility killer into slug injured survivor who tried to finish the gen over healing themselves into pushing another survivor and boom. What couldve been 2 out is 4k.
Scenario 2:
You are chased against killer who has endfury charged up, you don't know they have it. The hit you and you move to another loop, endfury happens, you are downed as last gen pops you go to basement, two other survivors have to leave because they can't save you. First hook to die because you got "outplayed".
Scenario 3:
You try to hide near almost completed gen and manage to get very good hiding spot where you slowly move around to avoid killer's vision. Killer can't find you, they kick gen, have nowhere to hide and find you.
Just reminder that those are not only survivors who have powerfull tools without much counterplay. While I still lean towards killer side I absolutely hate any additional weaknesses to antitunnel.
I understand what you mean:
If a bad precedent is harmful to killers but beneficial to survivors, you choose to remain silent
If a perk that should have been weakened for survivors is changed, you consider it a 'bad precedent'.
you post Good First Steps For Nerfing Blight — BHVR
but nerf blight give killer a "bad Precedent"(I know break palate power cool-down start at GHOUL) that all killer can nerf by this way.
and YOU DON'T think this is "bad precedent" and THIS nerf is a good "first" steps.
🤣🤣🤣
now Shoulder The Burden be nerfed.
What? look familiar?
Scenes like these are happening all over the Entity, right now!
You could be next.
Then you should bear it, because you have always supported handling it this way.
The issue isn't that STB is getting nerfed. The issue is that pretty much any antitunnel perks got nerfed with promise of base game antitunnel coming, promise never fullfilled. Off The Record went from 80s to 40s even when it has high restrictions like Decisive strike to not being able to perform anything without deactivating it. Antitunnel perks got deactivated in EGC. Anticamp got less headstart to be filled but more if killer stays very close to hook for long time. Unhook protections got nerfed by 5s with gift of elusive which is useless on many open maps if killer desperately wants to target same survivor. Now they want to rework BT which was only option of helping tunneled teammated apart from babysitter which suffers the exact same issues as elusive. So their path is to make off hook protection no longer going over 10s (unless you have off the record) and make helping tunneled survivors impossible. You can take the hit, but in the end if the survivor isn't goated or doesn't have antitunnel perks which are not that common anymore as they got hit hard you won't be able to protect them which causes same frustrations as multiSTB. I have truly no idea what am I gonna do against high tier killers desperately trying to kill someone at 5 gens. Neither they will.
I've also posted about how to improve specific killers, how to handle genrushing, and I've posted before about problem perks on the survivor side like Vigil and Distortion before they were nerfed.
I do actually care about the game as a whole. It was a good first step to nerf Blight's unfair cheese, the same way it would be a good step to rework toolboxes or to nerf, for example, Resurgence.
Problems exist on both sides and how those problems are handled matters. That Blight change was healthy, it had the right effect, but this StB change isn't.
base game anti-tunnel? nope, don't need this. good at looping is good anti-tunnel.
survivor that don't have anti-tunnel base-kit, is more powerful than now.
A disabled person who has lost their crutch will first consider how to hop on one foot. After finding a companion, the two will walk side by side.
Eventually, they will realize that they can walk independently without a crutch; they just need to master the correct method.
They are not truly disabled, only previously overly reliant on the crutch.
It has been a long time since I last saw survivors waiting to cooperate with other survivors for rescue.
You have no data to support your viewpoint, but I can provide you with the astonishing data from 5,646 individual matches carrying STB, which achieved a 40% escape rate, to tell you that this perk needs to be changed.
StB change is healthy ,and Stb need more nerf, like only use when that survivor is healthy.
because all killer that only use M1 can not Prevent StB from being used.
I don't mind the idea of StB being nerfed - although people vastly overstate how powerful it is - and I also actually like the change from Exposed to Broken.
I only have an issue with the "using it once turns it off for other people" part. I don't think they should do that. Restricting it some other way could be fine, depending, just not that way.
Before adding MORE bad precedents.
The previous bad precedents should be removed.
like anti-camp/ anti-tunnel/ can't catch save hook/ 8 break gen Limit/ Too many pallets
this all truly bad precedents.
If you want, Blood Lust and three vault sealing the window can all be bad precedents, but there are solutions for them.
None of those things are bad precedents, though.
Most of them aren't even problems, only too many pallets on some maps would actually warrant any changes.
Even if they were, though, stopping this bad precedent from happening would be much easier to do first, instead of waiting until some arbitrary time in the future to get rid of it.
I'd like to point out this precedent was set half a decade ago when Open Handed got changed and no one complained then.
This kind of has precedent with Invocations, too, but the fact that if you double up at least you can increase the progress.
That aside, I agree. This nerf is not just overkill, I think it's entering dangerous unfun design space that's going to keep people away from these perks due to how frustrating they are.
There was a reason why nobody used Moment of Glory or Apocalyptic Ingenuity for over a year: If anyone else took the same perk, it was literally impossible to get value out of those perks. Someone would essentially steal it from you after they opened 2 out of the 3 match chests to activate.
And we saw this reflected in these perks' abysmal pick rates. So low picked that they had to buff them so they could be used more than once. Now you actually see them used.
That's also why we never see Open Handed since the nerf, either.
I'm not likely to ever run Shoulder again if these nerfs go thru because of the chance that someone else can deactivate my perks. I don't like that, that makes me feel bad.
I think 2 minutes of 1-tap per use is enough as it is, it would make it far less able to be "abusable" by SWFs bc if they try to "abuse" it then they'll all be 1-tap the whole match, which is a much better risk/reward scenario than it was before. Killers can just go after the Burdened.
Well. That is not true. Some maps are not good for lasting long in chase, also depends on what killer you go against. And get gud at looping = make game miserable for players who don't have 5000hrs in the game? That is not correct thinking I'm sorry.
Which makes sense. You can deny hooks by many options - saves, sabo etc. STB is only different way that will still keep the amount of hooks the killer got. Saves deny those hook stages. Imagine if we live in DBD era where every survivor is forced to run perks that might in the end end not being usable at all if other teammates use them. Let's say Deliverence once per match per all survivors. They basically made that hybrid try with lend a hand. It went from once per game to once per survivor. So from absolutely useless to the point where if your teammate runs lend a hand with boons or whatever and use it on all other teammates you have one less perk, but this is just a slight version of that issue. But I screamed since PTB started that as long as BT won't be changed I don't mind STB receiving this nerf but if they push those changes then well, good luck getting away from hard tunneling killers. Clown with new two tap build will be nightmare to go against in tunneling scenario. But in the end, whatever BHVR cooks will spread killer and survivor community even more. From patch screaming "we want survivors to have fun" to patch "we want survivor role to be as miserable as possible". I don't tunnel as killer if truly not needed, like 95 % of my games I don't. But seeing tunneling and slugging at 5 gens by meta killers who don't need that to achieve victory feels frustrating. And even worse that there are so many streamers promoting and calling those a must playstyles.
Pain Res requires the killer to get unique hooks. The only unhealthy thing about it was the synergy with DMS, which is being nerfed this patch. You should not be complaining about Pain Res. The game needs more incentives for killers to hook, the number of people who got sick of having to deal with all of the survivor perks which activate from hooking LIKE SHOULDER is what led to the obnoxious slug-only playstyle with Coulrophobia.
Spirit Fury/Enduring requires the killer to sacrifice half their build (the equivalent to survivors giving up 8 perks) to get one cheesy down. If the survivors are on coms then they get it to work exactly 1 time before every single survivor in the lobby begins pre-dropping. It's not meta at all, it's a casual goof around combo. The fact you're complaining about this at all means you don't play on the level where you know what you're talking about, I'm sorry.
Nowhere to Hide is indeed a very strong perk and I'm still surprised it's in the game, but forcing survivors to stop hiding isn't anywhere near as powerful as survivors shuffling hook states.
You clearly only think about the game in terms of the 1v1 between you and the killer. The game isn't a 1v1. I know it's annoying when you get downed easily, but that's why you're on the team role and you're able to absorb multiple hooks. If the killer kills YOU and your allies escape, THEY STILL LOSE.
Changing gen progress? You mean Potential Energy?? The perk that's not a problem at all???
The game knows when survivors are in a party. One use per party would achieve the nerf that they want, and not handicap solo queue (who hardly ever run StB). If I bring a perk to help a weaker teammate, I should not be denied that just because a duo coordinates to keep themselves safe, for example. The hook stage is mine to give.
The problem is with counterplay.
Those scenarios aren't really necessary.
When a killer hooks a survivor, and another survivor is standing nearby waiting for the hook animation to finish and then immediately uses StB, which killer can stop StB from being used?
moment of glorty was a good change apocolypic was bad and the reason why they never changed it for a year is because building pallets is really strong and there aren"t enough chests
Well, what can we do to stop survivor from getting Lithe when vaulting window? Nothing. What can we do to surge hitting gen when someone goes down? Nothing. What do we do to make survivors with heal perks to heal normal speed? Nothing. Saying something has no counterplay isn't valid argument. If someone uses shoulder the burden in front of you, it's 2 hook stages on them instantly. I don't know how you. But I've seen STB very rarely and noticed a lot of times from those I hooked STB player first so they had no chance to use it.
That would be an example of a reasonable nerf, I do not understand why in the world BHVR consistently decides to nerf things by totally gutting them…
First things first since i’ve seen ds brought up. 9k hour killer player here, there is no such thing as using ds aggressively. It is a defensive perk and if you take a protection hit you’re defending something. protection is defence not offence. If you get ds’d its your own fault. A survivor protecting another player is defence not offence. Therefore ds cannot be aggressive.
Tank uses taunt, enemy agros to tank. Tank is a tank a defensive role not offence, glad we cleared that up. What did we learn today class? Ds cannot be used aggressively because you got baited into going after a tank.
Onto the topic now. Shoulder the burden should have a secondary effect that only activates if the primary effect is deactivated. This way if a soloq player brings it and another player brings it, one player doesn’t get their entire perk removed. The effect doesn’t need to be massive, maybe just you unhook quicker or no unhook notification.
killer have perk to stop survivor vaulting window or lithe. like Cruel Limits/Mindbreaker/Crowd Control and Undetectable+Exposed attack.
surge? get in locker even don't need a perk.
survivors with heal perks to heal normal speed? Coulrophobia or slug it, downed survivor can't heal other survivor.
you say" If someone uses shoulder the burden in front of you, it's 2 hook stages on them instantly. I don't know how you."
this game have 4 survivor and 1 killer, someone uses STB to me killer can't stop it, this guy get hooked and other survivor use STB to save that guy, and killer is chasseing me now is 3 survivor get 1 hook stage, then I get hooked is hookstage2 the 4th survivor sue STB, killer still can't stop it.
You are so forgetful, forgetting why 【Fast Track】 was changed.🤣
You are exactly the kind of player who shouldn’t have a say because of your lack of experience. Players like you are the ones for whom BEHVR gives survivors those anti-tunnel/anti-camp abilities so they can keep playing, without practicing loops, without calculating perk benefits, not trying hard but still wanting to win easily, and focusing on 'winning' rather than 'fun' as their goal.
You are the one who feels powerless when facing the camp and the tunnel, but at that time, the 'borrowed time' was clearly an optional choice, and you did not choose it, you ignored it, used the so-called 'frustration' to hijack BEHVR, and demanded that this perk be provided for free in the base set.