Becoming a Springtrap main makes it so much more painful how much Jason invalidates his existence
I mainly play survivor, but I've always played some killer since I picked up the game 5 years ago. That being said, I never really had a true main on killer. If someone asked I'd say I mained Blight and Billy (before the Billy rework at that), but that's just because I played them a bit more than the others. In reality, I played a variety of killers somewhat equally. Just recently I became a Springtrap main; I love his gameplay loop, his design and vibes, and overall have had a great time with him. It's so satisfying to hit a skill shot further away or over an obstacle, and I find him fun to play against as well (except when people use his axe-grab combo to camp :/). It's funny how it worked out since I'm a FNAF fan. But playing Springtrap so much has really made me realize that Jason is just Springtrap but if he did pretty much everything better and had no clear weakness.
To illustrate my point, here's a bunch of comparisons:
- Springtrap was the first ranged killer to have a built in map traversal ability. Jason's is sometimes faster, sometimes slower, but it's always more versatile and gives little to no warning unlike Springtrap's doors, and in addition it comes with built in information for when survivors aren't crouching, are healing, doing gens, etc.
- Springtrap is able to dynamically switch between 4.4 and 4.6 m/s depending on if he has or doesn't have his axe. In other words, if he wants to use his projectile, he can't be 4.6. Jason is 4.6 for 25 seconds after getting out of OE, allowing him to use his projectiles while he is 4.6. The duration is long enough to get at least one hit, and even if you run out, you can go into OE to grab another spike, reappear in front of the survivor, and bam you're 4.6 with a projectile again.
- When an axe is embedded in a Survivor, Springtrap can see the aura of the axe. However, this usually only lasts for a second, as the effect is immediately lost as soon as the survivor begins trying to remove the axe. On the other hand, Jason's hook spikes (which you will have more often than the trash pile spikes) only lose their aura when the survivor is actively removing it, so if they cancel to vault or drop a pallet it comes right back. Worst of all is that while removing the spike, you get a noticeable 10% hindered, so often times the survivor can't remove the spike midchase, unlike Springtrap.
- Springtrap's projectile has more tradeoffs than the rest of the categories, but I feel for most players who can't consistently hit skill shots with Springtrap, Jason's still beats it out. Springtrap has an extremely limited range, but it has the advantage that it travels in an arch so that it can go over objects and hit survivors in skill shots. Jason's spikes can't do that and take the exchange of being more usable and deadly at distances, allowing for long range snipes, closer to Huntress. However, even at close quarters, I've noticed that there are loops where Springtrap or Huntress would not be able to hit a crouching survivor on the other side, whereas I think because of the angle Jason throws his spikes from, he is able to just look over it and shoot downwards. Other than that, each projectile has its own cooldown / reload where one might be more advantageous than the other depending on where hooks and trash piles are placed in a chase.
- The only other advantage Springtrap has is that he gets Undetectable out of a door for 20s, but that doesn't matter much when you consider the latter has literal invisibility.
Springtrap's weaknesses / counterplay are clear: he lacks information without addons (unless you count his killer instinct which only gives info in chase), his map mobility gives survivors a warning before he comes, if the survivors are smart and coordinated they can take advantage of cameras and doors for free aura reading and map traversal, his projectile has a fixed cooldown, and most of all he can't do long range.
While Jason may not be able to just straight up ignore loops like Nurse, his weaknesses are actually less clear than her (in no way am I saying that Jason is comparable to Nurse, I'm just saying that even the most powerful killer in the game still has a clear weakness). He doesn't lack info, speed, map traversal, stealth, chase power, I really can't think of anything. His projectile sometimes has a cooldown, but only if there isn't a hook or trash pile nearby. The only true weakness he has is that he can't see crouching survivors in OE, but if the survivors crouch then they literally cannot do the objectives (including hexes). The only weakness this has is that the weak link can hide from Jason while others take chase, but this isn't much different from Springtrap who gets no information at all.
I feel like Springtrap is one of the best designed and balanced killers we've had in years, and I honestly felt that way before I started maining him. This isn't so much a "Jason is OP" post (although personally, I do think he has a bit too much going on, but I know that's a debate in the community) but more so talking about how I realized how BHVR essentially copy pasted last year's anniversary killer to this one, but the killer design philosophy almost reminds me of Skull Merchant after her first big rework (except much better obviously), where she kind of had everything going on and didn't have a firm identity. Jason is simultaneously like Springtrap, but also feels like 3 killers in 1? I just don't like my baby boy's existence being invalidated by his younger brother :(
Edit: forgot to add that, without a certain cosmetic, he's also loud af, so you can hear him coming even if he is undetectable, and sometimes you can use this to tell where he is through walls during chase.
Comments
Yeah, it is baffling how much Jason has in his Kit. And it is also baffling how often you think to yourself that you can also play Jason instead of the Killer you are currently playing.
I played Huntress the other day after a long time, simply because I like her. And while I had a good game and lots of fun, I was always thinking that I could also just play Jason and have a way better version than Huntress. And this applies to a bunch of Killers.
And up to this day I dont even know why they thought they need to bloat up his Kit. It is Jason, after all, it would have sold anyway. Maybe they felt the need to make him a strong Killer so that a Horror Icon is not weak. Who knows.
Yeah idk, I get that feeling when playing Springtrap a lot. Even though I find him a lot more fun, part of me is just like why am I playing the objectively weaker version when I could just play the stronger version? There are very few things other ranged killers do better than him. At this point, the only thing Huntress really has over him is that she carries 7 hatchets, but she still has to stop at a locker and reload, which you can't really do midchase (then again, Huntress also needs a bit of buffing in modern DBD)
Springtrap needs...more. Maybe an addon overhaul as well as some much needed buffs to his stealth requiring survivors to use cameras could be the kick he needs to match jasons power.
While I do think there are a couple slight tweaks Springtrap could use to make him feel better to play, I think for the most part he's alright, and most of his addons are actually decent (besides a few), a couple are actually pretty fun and useful at the same time rather than just adding a bit of power. I personally think the focus should more be on Jason's bloated kit because right now I think his power level is a bit above where it should be, but that's just my opinion
I agree that Springtrap is one of the more balanced and fun killers. I honestly don't know why they thought releasing an all in one killer who power creeps half the roster like Jason does was a good idea. I don't even know how you fix it. Even if you give things cooldowns or reductions he still has too much going on and, like you said, no real identity.
Yeah I mean if I had to categorize him I'd still say he's a ranged killer, but he has a little bit of half the roster's powers so I wouldn't really know how to change him either. Makes me wonder if it's just because BHVR is running out of ideas, but then I immediately discard that idea because the new community killer is incredibly unique
I believe jason to be perfect in terms of basekit. His issues lie in his power interaction with totems/totem cleansing and two distinctly strong addons that did not get changed yet: Coffee and Badge.
A certain content creator really thought an infinite winstreak with a busted totem build would be a good idea and now everyones going after his basekit, i'm sadge. :(
Yeah I'm not sure exactly how powerful coffee is, but the addon design BHVR has been doing a lot where it basically gives the killer a 5th perk like Badge feels horrendous. Speaking of Springtrap, Bonnie's Guitar was a huge issue on release, giving you permanent Hivemind in doors with no downside. Now it gives you the downside of losing the Undetectable out of doors, but even then some people argue that it kind of just tramples over all his other addons. Personally I still think his basekit is bloated, but I don't even know how I think they could fix that. But for sure Badge needs to be reworked or have some kind of downside
Permanent Undetectable, but every time he's revealed by a camera he gets a 32-meter Terror Radius for 60 seconds.
Honestly sounds fun as part of a game mode, but probably too powerful in practice lmao
Wraith, Spirit, Huntress, Springtrap, Trickster, Deathslinger, Unknown completely powercrept by a single killer. Notice that most of them are non-licensed.
I do like that idea. Permanent undetectable would make cameras actually worth it to use.
2 things...
A. Unknown was the first ranged killer with a map mobility skill
B. Have you played Jason much?
I mean it would essentially be a big creaking and clanking version of ghostface with ranged attack instead of stalking. Sounds okay in my book, especially because springy could be "broken out" of undetectable with cameras.
Why do you think it would be too strong?
I didn't think of Unknown so that's my bad, although their map mobility abilities are extremely different from one another. I haven't played Jason a ton but I did play him for the adept and for some archives that suited him
As of now from what I can see most people in the community find Springtrap to be a pretty balanced killer, I usually see him on the higher end of B on tier lists where he is strong but not too strong. There are some small buffs that would honestly just make him more pleasant to play that they could do, but I'd be concerned that something as major as permanent Undetectable (even if with counterplay) may send him too high. I do like that it forces survivors to use cameras though, although honestly one thing I'm often able to do that survivors don't expect is that when someone is trying to reveal me, sometimes I abandon chase to go through the door next to me and a I get a free grab, so it can be punished as well.
Personally, I like a mix of @MarbleThrone's idea and an idea I saw a while back for Springtrap about the power outage. Currently, the power on the cameras/doors just disables them for survivors for, what, like 45s and that's all that happens? The user I'm thinking of proposed that battery is used less by survivors interacting with them (I think it should be like half as much), but instead of constantly recharging (so the battery almost never runs out), it doesn't recharge and also very slowly drains over time (so that if the survivors ignore doors, the power would still go out maybe twice a game on average). When the power goes out, that's when Springtrap can go Undetectable for maybe a minute and then the power comes back on (and the battery would be full unlike now where it recharges to half). The user also suggested some kind of filter similar to (although not nearly as dark as) Dredge's nightfall in this time period, and similarly to Dredge you could have his interactions with doors be faster, which would be pretty cool (although poor Dredge needs his own changes too). You could use the power out sounds from the game, and if you really wanted to up the atmosphere you could even play Freddy's lullaby in this time.
I do think that survivors should be incentivized to utilize the doors more in some way, but I think having him Undetectable by default might be a bit much considering that he already is in a pretty good spot and it would not only allow him to sneak up on survivors and have no red stain more often, but if the survivors are required to break him out of it it almost acts as a bit of a passive slowdown. I think something like the above would be a smaller buff that also adds atmosphere to the killer.
Alot of the playstyle is actually quite different between the various killers, but ppl like to oversimplify things. Jason's stealth...isn't much of stealth but rather just mobility. That would be like comparing Xeno WHILE hes in his tunnels or Springtrap WHILE hes in his doors. Jason is never gonna get surprise gen grabs unless he brings perks or addons that grant stealth. His gameplay is much more aggressive. Springtrap actually has more room for stealth plays since you get a decent amount of undetectable after you cross the map. A play I would recommend is dont go to the door you know a survivor is by if you wanna make a stealth play, but try a door nearby.
Theres also a key point to make about the speeds. Jason is a 4.4 killer that is granted haste to get 4.6 speeds, while Springtrap toggles back and forth 4.4 and 4.6 without haste. If were talking about basekit alone, there's no real difference. There IS difference though when we bring sources of haste into play. If you run batteries included for example on both killers, itll result in a bigger boost for Springtrap. Your getting a 5% boost on 4.4 on Jason as opposed to 5% on 4.6 .This is then stacked on Jason's diminishing returns.
Im not gonna pick it apart any more, just wanted to really showcase... these 2 have there own strengths and weaknesses that SHOULD affect how you approach their gameplay. If you're trying to play them the same exact way, you're missing out.
Just wait another year for the next recycled killer to replace jason and invalidate his existence because bhvr would rather just chuck a bunch of existing killer powers into a blender rather than making something new and fresh.
Jason may not be able to get grabs like Springtrap, but grabs off of generators become less and less common as you go up in MMR, as that's only common with new survivor's that aren't very aware (especially because Springtrap's footsteps are so loud). Jason gives no warning of where he is in OE (unless he moves the grass, but honestly it moves so fast that it doesn't give you much extra time for distance) which makes it infinitely easier to close distance with survivors off rip. With Springtrap, either you come out of a door next to them, which gives them warning so they usually are able to get quite a bit of distance, or you come out of one further away, not only wasting precious time that Jason doesn't have to, but often times there aren't enough obsticles to block you from view and the survivors are able to take distance anyways, or at the very least, again, his footsteps are so loud that the survivors can hear him coming. With Xeno, its even more of a weakness and even harder to miss, as the turrets give a constant measure of how close the killer is, making stealth almost useless and giving lots of warning to survivors.
Jason may not have "stealth" in that he can silently creep up on you until he's breathing down your neck, but he has "stealth" in that he goes completely invisible, making it almost impossible to know he's coming until he appears behind you. Jason goes invisible and can appear in so many places across the map he could basically appear anywhere, so I would still somewhat consider this a stealth ability. Both Springtrap and Xenomorph have 7 distinct places that they can pop out of, so their map mobility ability is not a stealth ability.
I will give you the haste, as obviously because of Diminished Returns, unless BHVR changes it so that it does not effect killer powers in the upcoming perk patch, Jason can't effectively utilize haste perks. However, I don't really see this as a huge downside. Yeah, Springtrap or Huntress would be a bit stronger in chase with Batteries because they could go 4.6 while using projectiles, but Jason essentially gets the same amount of haste on demand from the beginning of the game for free. If Jason could use Batteries on top of that to get, for example, the 5% haste from Batteries as a 4.6 killer with a projectile, could you imagine how incredibly powerful that would be? Just to get the same level of haste, Springtrap or Huntress would have to run Batteries when Jason does not, and then they would be effected by Diminished Returns the same as Jason so more perks would have the same issue as he does. The only difference is that Jason does not have to use a perk slot for the same effect. So in the end, I don't really see that as a weakness.
I feel like you missed the biggest part of the haste point. If you get 10% haste on a 4.4 killer, your now moving at 4.84 m/s. Tack on Jason's built in haste and after Diminished Returns, your at 4.94 m/s. If you used that same haste perk on Springtrap... he'd alternate between 4.84 m/s and 5.06m/s. Ppl really screw themselves up when they start doing math with "110% + 10%= 120%". A 10% speed boost gives a different benefit based off the base killer speed.
Once again though... im not interested in breaking down every interaction where Jason has an advantage or where Springtrap has an advantage. Im just pointing out that they have different advantages.