Can we nerf exhaustion addons?
I would be okay with a soft blanket nerf to baseline exhaustion timers to compensate, but I genuinely don't think any exhaustion addon should be longer than 5 seconds max. Enough to prevent a Sprint Burst at the start, but not enough to make it impossible to get rid of mid-chase.
It feels terrible getting tunneled and being unable to actually use perks that help with such.
Jason is especially bad with this.
Comments
just remove them because they have no place in the game . Also vigil needs a slight buff aswell.
I don't think exhaustion perks themselves are in a healthy enough position to constitute for anti-exhaustion perks/add-ons to be nerfed.
I feel like exhaustion tied to a perk is fine because there are tradeoffs, someone running genetic limits is one less slow-down they can run.
But going against four slowdowns + exhaustion addons that hard nerf chases since its impossible to lose the timer due to its length feels awful to play against.
I know that exhaustion perks are very strong however, so I would be okay if exhaustion went up by 10-15s to compensate. I don't find it healthy that non-iri addons can straight up disable perks every chase.
I would hate your suggestion, I'm sorry.
I do not want to have to run Vigil just to have my exhaustion perk come back before 60 seconds. I hardly if ever see people using exhaustion or oblivious add-ons - usually the killer I face use aura or hemorrhage status effects over exhaustion add-ons.
They are arguably the weakest of the add-ons as people can easily just walk it off - same for Mindbreaker and it affecting you.
I just would not like the changes at all and I say that as a prominent exhaustion perk user, which I'd argue it's always good to have an exhaustion perk on you to extend your chase.
In essence, what you are describing is a flat nerf to all exhaustion perks due to exhaustion add-ons, which affect exhaustion anyways. - not necessary, you are just making exhaustion perks harder to obtain with what you are suggesting.
You are not walking off a > 10s exhaustion duration against any competent killer. Maybe with Vigil and that's a big maybe + the killer messing up big time.
Sprint Burst/Lithe/Drama are already too accessible and a big reason why BHVR keeps adding more ways to make them irrelevant which in turn punishes everyone else.
Not to mention, a nerf to the timer is only impactful after said perk is used, I honestly don't think it should be consistent to be able to SB/Lithe multiple times in one chase.
You could still pre-run even if the timer was increased, and again, I have no issues with exhaustion perks sans maybe Languid Touch. They come with a big trade-off. The addons not so much.
So, you're flat out admitting that you want exhaustion perks nerfed because they're too accessible - so, which one is it?
Either exhaustion add-ons are too strong or increase the timer, regardless you are nerfing stuff that do not need to be nerfed.
You can walk off exhaustion add-ons and perks. To imply such a thing is very, very restricted thinking.
Just say your initial post was, "I think exhaustion perks are too strong and accessible, they need a higher cooldown rate and we can adjust exhaustion add-ons." but you don't want to have that as your main argument because no matter how you slice it, it's nonsensical. We already nerfed Dead Hard, are you really bringing up Dramaturgy as an accessible perk once they made it so you only get Dead Hard twice in a match? Dead Hard is the only exhaustion perk that doesn't function off of basic exhaustion, yet you don't hear me complaining about it because I don't use it - but to bring up Dramaturgy? Are you gonna bring up Overcome next?
Just what we need. More pig nerfs.
Pig should just stay permanently crouched, just the Pig nerf I need. /s
My logic is fairly consistent.
Exhaustion Addons (and killer/map balancing overall) are as strong as they are due to Exhaustion Perks being too accessible (namely: Sprint Burst/Lithe/Dramaturgy.)
I would like Exhaustion Addons to be nerfed because I find them oppressive when combined with tunneling + four slowdowns, but not without compensation, increasing the timer of exhaustion would be a fair compensation in my book for what I am looking for.
If you can find me footage of a high level game in which the killer allows the survivor to walk for 13+ seconds without getting hit on a strong killer, please link it so I can learn.
EDIT: I might add, imo the intention behind exhaustion addons should be to prevent using them at the start of a chase (where they are most oppressive) and to force the survivor to trade distance for potentially getting their perk back mid chase, there is skill expression there, there is gameplay there. This is healthy.
10+ second exhaustion just completely disables the perks, I find this to be bad design.
So, you want me to go out of my way to go find a specific high MMR player that walks off exhaustion add-ons (mind you are already incredibly niche to begin with).
No one in high MMR is using exhaustion add-ons from what I see in my OWN games. - before you imply I am not high MMR, what metric do we have? I have faced comp players and you are arguing that you cannot walk it off. - you can walk off stuff while looping and holding checkpoints or being on another side of shack. I am not going to do your research for you to find one specific video nor do I have videos of me breaking down each specific killer I go against with exhaustion add-ons.
You're not going to get me in a gotcha and your argument collapsed the moment you brought up Dramaturgy.
Before you say: "Of course, you don't have videos of you doing it because if you did you'd show me a video."
I don't do that, I clip my best chases and either use them as a resource for others to use or upload them on YouTube. I don't get out of a game and be like, "The killer used x exhaustion add-on, guys!!! I walked it off, here is how you do it."
Ditch the add-ons; nerf the perks.
Literally his argument in a nutshell.
Comparing Dramaturgy to Sprint Burst and Lithe is insane.
One where you can only get when healed while the others don't have as much conditions, but implying all three are similar.
OP please bring up Overcome.
I find this wild. Not only do they not need to be nerfed but they in general need buffs for "most" killers. A few have decent ones.
There's almost always a guaranteed 4 exhaustion perks every match. This would mean exhaustion addons would be super good right? There always guaranteed to get max value. Yet they're still almost never ran on most killers that have them because even in their base case scenario (4 exhaustion perks) they're still bad.
I don't think they should all be nerfed eqaully. Dramaturgy is what SB should be. SB is the problem child.
If that's your takeaway then go for it, I am not invested in convincing you otherwise.
Fact of the matter it is not feasible to walk off 13 seconds of exhaustion vs a strong killer piloted by a competent player unless they mess up heavily.
There is a reason why I don't bring up Mindbreaker.
Most of them are not good because they happen within a chase, getting exhausted for 13 seconds vs Jason is incredibly oppressive, but this does not mean all exhaustion addons should be this strong.
You know you can literally avoid this entirely but just crouching right?
I mean those add ons aren't very good, theres almost always a better one to take that will give you more value
The best way to balance exahustion is to remove any and all effects that positively alter the recovery timers and adjust that based on the ease of use and value of the perk. Sprint burst and lithe being the most obvious two should have longer timers, and the ones with downsides, randomness or significant requirements (like drama, smash hit etc) should have less.
Also delete and rework vigil.
Then we can decide whether these kinds of addon are needed or even need adjusting or are worth using afterwards but keep the option there.
I think the notion of just nerfing perks because they're used is a bit of an issue when it comes to the game.
I am still of the opinion that making Dead Hard hardlocked to two uses and not letting it operate on an exhaustion meter like the others is a bit of a hard nerf and I say that as someone who never primarily used the perk.
You make Sprint Burst into Dramaturgy when it already has the restrictions it has by making you have to learn the mechanics of 99ing the SB and using it on-demand, which most people do not know and will walk everywhere just to save the SB.
Even under the idea that you can only use SB as a healthy person? Or however you are implying it should be nerfed would just push more people towards Lithe, which then people would say it's too strong → then we get into, "Well, Lithe should only be used when you're healthy." but to each their own.
I don't know why you believe people cannot walk off exhaustion add-ons or perks when people are able to do that.
What do you think people are doing when they're walking around shack or holding a checkpoint around a corner and they have Lithe or Sprint Burst? Like, why do you think they're walking while in chase (aka shift tech) or pausing at a corner to check where the killer is going while getting their exhaustion back.
Do you think people aren't doing that? I've done it multiple times, I don't understand why you are under the sentiment that survivors cannot walk off exhaustion.
Edit: also, I find it a bit mind-boggling that if a survivor walks off exhaustion add-ons (shift tech) people assume the killer is bad, but a double standard occurs when survivors die and we don't hear about how the survivors were just potatoes.
I have no idea why people imply killers are efficient machines that work at optimal mindsets and techniques all game, they are humans. They aren't some chess bot following a specific subset of moves and winning every single moment that happens, so strange.
Popularity isn't the issue. When people use SB against me as a 4.4 killer, I ignore them. A perk that makes the killer decide you aren't worth the effort is not a good thing for your team. Lithe is different. It has an activation condition, and one that can be botched. All the other Exhaustion perks require you to do something have something done to you, or have a downside. SB is just free, and it often makes killers not even chase.
You're acting like you can't find people with Sprint Burst out of positioning and these people just Sprint Burst everywhere.
As I've said on Reddit, you can give someone Sprint Burst but does that mean that they will Sprint Burst towards a chaining tile? If you are playing a 4.4 or a 4.6 depending on what it is, you're not telling me what killer in question we're talking about to expand off the initial claim to talk about counterplay against SB.
I don't know of any activation requirements you can potentially do towards Sprint Burst and if it's an activation where you have to be healthy, people will just move to Lithe, then we have people complaining about Lithe.
People will say Lithe and SB takes no skill and has less restrictions than the others, but the other ones require you to be healthy (Overcome and Dramaturgy), specific to the killer behavior (Smash Hit and that's not even guaranteed as killers respect pallets anyways), or Head On (which makes you have to stay in a locker for a specific amount of seconds to activate).
But again, to each their own - without you telling me what killer you are using, we are just theorycrafting without giving me a proper 4.4 movement speed on why you choose to abandon chases.
The killer doesn't really matter, nor is it about me specifically. Many players won't waste their time on someone who preruns away at rapid pace when they can just turn around and go back to a hook and find an easier target. The people I play against who run SB, Vigil, and Ghost Notes/Lightweight are not trying to extend chases, they're trying to avoid them. People can defend SB all they want but I'm telling you as someone who believes in spreading hooks that nothing will make me go back to the hook like this perk.
Can you name the killer specifically? Not all 4.4 killers operate the same exact way.
A Spirit, Hag, Huntress, Deathslinger, Trickster, Artist, Skull Merchant, Singularity, Chucky, etc all operate differently with a Sprint Burst or are you implying that it doesn't matter because all of these killers should abandon an SB user?
Edit: I do find it a bit telling that you're implying, maybe myself as I am an avid SB user that I use it avoid chases, but under your logic a 4.4 killer is avoiding resistance by explicitly ignoring the survivor doing an SB play.
Someone can use SB in a dead zone, it is on the 4.4 killer (whatever it is as you cannot give me a specific killer to give counterplay with) to adapt to that scenario.
If we are using let's say Trapper for example, Trapper doesn't rely on chasing a survivor down. Obviously they rely on good trap placements and zoning people into said traps - same thing for Hag. A Chucky, Spirit, and any ranged killer can easily deal with an SB user. I literally got sniped by a Jason javelin throw during an SB, it's possible but hard to counter if you cannot just give me the killer you opt to avoid chases with due to an SB.
SB is used to extend chases, get out of dead zones, and going from point a to b quite easily. It is not used to just avoid interacting with the killer at all. On the contrary, I would argue that the killer choosing to not interact with the SB user is the one outright avoiding the interaction, not the survivor.