Cross Examination
Ok guys what are our thoughts on it? despite it coming into the live possibly unchanged? i hear its going to be broken but i also hear otherwise
Ok guys what are our thoughts on it? despite it coming into the live possibly unchanged? i hear its going to be broken but i also hear otherwise
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It's not releasing into live alongside Jason, so there's no real evidence for or against the idea of it being changed.
It's going to be problematic if released in its current state. It's a fog vial with no sound/visual cue, no cooldown and activated for free on any loop. I've heard people say "Just use your eyes instead of relying on scratchmarks" but that massively underplays both the hesitation losing a trail causes in terms of free distance, as well as how a killer, confined to limited FoV and first person (aside from Chucky, wolf Drac and head Krasue), spends considerable time in chase not being able to see the survivor.
I played against it on the PTB. It wasn't an issue at first but as soon as players at large realised it works in chase, it became infuriating to deal with. It basically makes leaving any tall loop free if the killer doesn't have LoS. If it didn't work in chase it would have a niche use for hovering for a save, opening the opportunity to do this close by and when injured, or, once you leave the light trail, it should go on a fairly long cooldown after the 5s is up.
another issue is that you have to listen for foot steps that arent always super precise anyways through extremely loud chase music that you cant lower the volume or turn off.
if this perk becomes meta (and i dont see how it wouldnt) dealing with this on 4 people in every chase and every loop will zap fun out playing killer more than old dead hard ever could.
the last thing this game needs that already has a pacing issue is to cause a massive number of chases to get extended even MORE alongside far more pallets and safe zones than ever before all while i would say 80% of my matches as survivor have 2 gens done by the first down/hook when only a single chase has happened.
I know, thats why i said possibly unchanged because the devs have no intent on changing it at the moment
I'm the rare optimist that believes this will be looked at, but the devs do not want to make a statement until they know what they are doing. The fixes are obvious. I don't mind another stealth perk but if it's going to be strong enough to break chase this reliably, it needs to be earned or limited in some way.
I also feel it's fairly obvious that the intended use is to follow the killer and not be seen, for whatever purpose you might have for that. Leaving loops in chase is likely not the thinking behind this perk.
This game has a large live design component, no perk is immune from balance changes.
i wasnt saying it was immune, i was trying to say that there has not been interest showed in changing it, i could have worded that better
My thoughts are that pretty much no new or recently reworked perk or item is allowed to be useful because this community won't tolerate it. So even if it survives this first wave of whining (which I doubt) it will almost certainly not survive the second wave after it goes live. Fog vials and Fast Track are good precedents for what happens nowadays.
i do think im not going to enjoy playing against it, but im not the type to be (oh my god this perk is utterly horrible to go against nerf it now) if that was the case i would join on the "screw SB" bandwagon
I normally like your takes but in this case we're opposed forever. Within different tribes, never to reconcile… You… You survivor main!
For real though, the problem with the perk is it's too strong, too free, no investment required and always active. Its use in chase appears to be an oversight. Make it work like Overzealous or remove its chase function and it's golden.
I too like Cogs takes, and enjoy reading them, Your not wrong when you say it takes no effort to activate, a cooldown needs to be added or something
I don't care about this perk at all. I don't even intend to try it. But my point is it likely won't be strong for long because of certain trends in community reaction and BHVR's reposnses. I'm seeing the same pattern we just had with Fast Track.
I'd personally rather see new perks be strong so the meta will change. I'm tired of SB/Vigil. But we are never changing if new perks continue to be trash.
Lots of perks have zero investment. I can make a build for both roles that will activate throughout the match even if I'm AFK. This is more earned than, say, Deadlock or Alert. You do have to at least be moving and reacting, and it's not like Elusive teleports you away. You're still perfectly chaseable and downable. Like any stealth perk, if you misjudge, you die.
I want old FT back tbh.
Or, have you earn tokens for it by picking up a slug. That way instead of punishing hooks like so many claimed, it punishes slugging and makes for a more active role in the FT user.
That aside, Cross Examination is really horrible to play into. Yes, players make mistakes with it, but it's very easy not to. One tall wall, one nearby rock, boom, it's now pure luck if the killer sees you break chase or not. Plus, if it became meta I couldn't really see it shaking anything up. In fact, use SB and Vigil with it, and you can near guarantee getting to a tall loop to pull these shenanigans.
However, I appreciate people may want it to work as it does in chase, which is why I think it should be tested as a conditional, same vein as Overzealous, permanent until injured, then you need to invest time to re-up it.
The thing is, thinking not enjoying to play against it and actually playing against it are different things. Which is the big problem, people jump to conclusions way too fast and then things get changed before they were actually properly tested. Fog Vials are a great example, you would probably see 0 complaints about original Fog Vials now (assuming they made them equal on all maps, what they eventually did). People complained because they were new and many people were using them, therefore they were very common. But instead of waiting a few weeks and let new toy syndrome disappear, people mass-complained and they were dead a week after going to Live. And yet the same people complain about Survivors bringing 4 Medkits all the time…
The problem is, if you make it work like Overzealous, it will be bad. Assuming that you mean that it should get an activation requirement which is too much to justify the benefit (which is the case for Overzealous). And I dont know if removing it in chase will do the Perk any good either, because what is the point then of bringing it? Maybe to line up for Flashlight-saves, but to be honest, I would rather use Background Player for it.
I hope for people actually playing against the Perk and then getting a feel of how they perform against it. And actually testing to play against it and not going to the Forums after one person had the Perk and they had a mild difficulty of getting them (but still a 4K…). I am also not sure if people are not underestimating it. We all chased someone with Iron Will and Lucky Break at some point and I think it is fine. And Elusive is nothing different, even if it is less investment and not on a timer.
And last but not least, the Perk being free is also not entirely correct. To have its use in a chase the Survivor needs to actually be good. So its not like it is an unearned buff, which turns mediocre players into Looping Gods. There are other Perks which are way more free.
But to be honest, I dont care too much about the Perk itself. I will most likely not use it, especially not when I consider that it will be nerfed anyway. I just really dislike the fact that new things for Survivor which MIGHT be good are nerfed immediatly. Makes it hard to feel any excitement about new things when you know that they will not stay like that.
Your exactly right, i shouldnt make any assumptions if i havent play against it yet. Im mostly influenced by other people complaining about it
The strong response comes from the fear many people have that it will make it to live as is and go untouched for god knows how long, and it'll make misery out of what was these people's hobbies. I'm definitely cautious about it because playing into it really really sucked when someone figured out the use that people are sounding the alarm about.
I maintain that I dislike it. Lucky Break and Iron Will are two perk slots, this is one. Lucky Break, Quick and Quiet, other perks of that nature are on a cooldown/have a requirement too. This is not. You do not need to be good in chase to make use of Cross Examination. You need to rotate around a tall loop once, then it's locked in until you leave the loop, then you keep it for a further 5s, which is years in DBD time. It's the jungle gym nightmare. If the killer catches you leave, great, but if they don't instantly spot you, which is the more common scenario, you'll make enough distance to probably reach another loop and repeat the cycle. I am not a good survivor and I strolled out of chases quite carefree.
I think there's a clear disparity between the intended design of the perk and how it was being used after a few days of PTB had passed. The Overzealous idea wouldn't kill it IMO, because if you continue to use it smartly, then you're not going to take the injury needed to remove it from you. Although, to elaborate, I think the only aspect of the perk that should have such a requirement would be its usability in chase. The outside of chase effects should be free because they're niche. Also, a different requirement to Overzealous, as I'm already wrestling players cleansing dulls for BP when I'm running Overz/Inners. Lend a Hand is going to make them an even more scarce resource.
Keep in mind, this is the only one of the three I dislike. I think Lend a Hand and Wide Open Throttle are both interesting, strong and potentially lead to some new gameplay situations. I wouldn't want them nerfed. In fact, reduce the WOT block to 30s and I'd still think it's okay.
I could see them fixing what's presumably a bug with multi-floor activation and maybe shortening the trail the killer leaves. Other than that I don't see this perk as being busted, just strong.
Likening it to fogless Fog Vials is perfect though. Not only are the effects similar but endless complaining is going to nerf it into something that makes me treat it as non-existent because it may as well be - just like fog vials!
I was also going to make the same comparsion @Aven_Fallen did with IW and LB. I currently run both those perks to great effect. They do take two slots, that's true, but they also do more than one thing. Iron Will gives value constantly while injured, throughout the whole match, and LB is almost always still active after my first hook, so I can run away from the hook with no trail, making it double as chase bamboozler and anti-tunnel, and I've been tunneled probably 10 times in 400ish matches running this combo. I personally prefer things that give me guaranteed and varied value. CE is too situational for me personally.
And Elusive isn't all powerful either. Aside from just seeing people, Killer Instinct and loud noise notifcation perks and add-ons still work through it, as do noisy killer effects like infections. And much like the IW and LB combo, there's a good chance the person is crouching behind a nearby rock, and if they're found, they're hit. I think my biggest issue with the whole conversation around this perk is how hard focused everyone is on chase and how entitled they feel to an easily trackabke survivor. Meanwhile, killers can run near-uncounterable aura (like me) or undetectable builds and that's fine.
But again, the chances of it going live as is are probably near zero. It's kind of a pointless conversation. I'm at the point where if I see a lot of repetitive complaints about a survivor thing then it's dead in the water.
In regards to people using it with SB, I'd love to see Elusive not work when exhausted. Anything that hurts the SB/Vigil meta is good to me.
I just think people are over reacting, people do chases with shadowstep, it's not "OP, it does its job nothing more nothing less".
Remember the counterforce drama 5 years ago
Remember the Conviction Drama recently
Finesse?
There has been plenty between, but it's always something, the perk does its job, shocking.
it's something new and unique, I understand live balance changes like number tweaks, but let's not take a potentially breathe of fresh air from the larger community, especially console who havn't gotten the chance to test it yet.
I ain't gonna lie and it might be a toxic opinion, but I'm tired of Content Creation trying to spark us vs them over extreme cases over perks on PTB, they know who they are.
maybe not the most logical post on my end but, I'm really looking forward to these new perks, I cant wait to use rampage on live and silent shadow or whatever its called.