They said in the livestream theyre adjusting STBFL / sloppy / 3 gen
What will be left for killers?
Everything a killer can do it being removed. You got rid of regression, now its chase !
What will be left for killers?
Everything a killer can do it being removed. You got rid of regression, now its chase !
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Ah yes. All Killers do is running STBFL and Sloppy Butcher and holding 3-Gens from the start. This is all they can do. There is no other chance for Killers to win. /s
I dont really know what they want to do to STBFL, but Mangled and Sloppy Butcher are really overtuned now. And deciding to hold a 3-Gen from the beginning of the game and only defending this 3-Gen is boring and does not really need any Skill at all.
But, dont worry, I dont think that their measurements will be effective. Especially because they also have to keep in mind that Survivors can 3-gen themselves (and should be punished for it), I think their solution will be very mild to not remove the need to be careful which Gens should be done by the Survivors.
I dont 3 gen from the start, but have many matches where survivors just slam the gens out as fast as they can and I only stand a chance because they werent paying attention to which gens and I get a 3 gen, but even then I can lose. A 3 gen is hard to defend because if you have 4 survivors alive, regression perks suck now so its hard to take it from 80%+, and while you're defending that one the others will get another gen going.
You can be a smartass all you want, but itll be to the point where all killers have is info perks.
Dont complain when you get nothing but S, A tier killers with good basekits.
I think theyll add another gen.
Survivor mains won't ever be satisfied until the average killer meta loadout involves the likes of Beast of Prey and Predator 😔
I agree, and I am not even a killer main - I am 50 / 50. As I said gen regression is pretty much dead, now theyre hitting the chase perks.
Next will be info.
Give me an extra 200% bp and ill just run a no perk mode to make the survivors happy. 300% and no perks no addons
The only thing these changes do is make m1 killers weaker but not the actual strong killers. They could've definitely made better changes
stbfl and sloppy butcher mainly helps killer that have no mobility to catch-up after health-states. Sloppy keeps survivors injured so they're instant down restricting health-states and stbfl decreases distance when someone is healthy. nerfing those perks hurt weaker killers that get trashed by health-states.
Much as I personally don't believe STBFL or Sloppy actually need changes, this is hardly that dramatic.
We still have all the normal gameplay left. Y'know, regular chases, regular gen patrols, all that stuff. Even if STBFL and Sloppy are completely nuked into uselessness, we'd still have most of the potent chase perks that currently exist. We'd have stealth builds, we'd have slowdown builds, we'd even have some pretty okay hex builds.
The state of the game is not so dire that two perks, a status effect, and a blatantly unhealthy strategy being looked at means killers are left with nothing.
I foresee changes that slightly affect casuals that already struggle to use mechanics but will have greater impact at higher levels. I expect more swf teabags with a flippin the bird at the gates mentality.
If they "got rid of regression", why are Pop and Pain Res still the two most common killer perks?
I have to see what the changes for Stbfl will be. If it's just pre 6.1.0 Stbfl I'm fine. If it's more, I'm definitely not ok with it.
So you're saying please be reasonable and patient? 🙂
How was it back then, what would change?
Reasonable more than patient. There's a degree of 'wait and see' because we don't actually know what they're doing with any of the things listed, but mostly it's just silly to start doomsaying about how killers have nothing left because of a handful of vague changes.
You know how 6 stacks of STBFL feels now? That's how it would feel.
Not world-endijy, I assure you.
I think for me it would be fine. I rarely use it and when I‘m playing bad, I‘m stuck at 2 stacks. In rare cases I get to 7/8 stacks.
I don‘t think it needs a nerf.
I don't think it's OP, just overtuned.
Yep
Well, everyone can agree that the tunnel is getting worse with every nerf to gen regression... so we already know what the consequence will be if you can't hold a 3-gen or if healing doesn't consume enough time.
That's really the main problem here.
3 gen/sloppy/stbfl are the reason killers like trapper can do anything. It isn't going to hurt nurse or blight at all, because they don't care and never have. So here we are again, nerfing killers that already need buffs, while ignoring the ones that are actually a problem and then people wonder why using mmr for matchmaking is terrible, because at some point as a survivor every game you'll just see the same 2-3 killers over and over again because they are the only ones who can compete.
Its not that they got rid of it, but they heavily nerfed it. The reality is you aren't winning any games at a high level unless you are stacking 4 gen slowdown perks. Just take a look at hens' recommended builds for every killer: https://hens333.com/killerbuilds
Notice how pretty much all of them are Pain res/Corrupt/Pop/Deadlock? There's a reason for that. That is the only thing that is able to compete at a high level.
Prior to the nerfs to gen slowdown, it was relatively viable (outside of the sweatiest of SWF) to take only 1 or 2 gen defense perks, leaving you some room to play with your build a bit and have a little fun. That is no longer the case.
Right, so as usual, lets nerf the things that trapper and pig and legion and doctor and clown and various other D tier killers use to try and stand a chance, and completely ignore nurse and blight and spirit for some reason. The 3 of which won't care what perks get changed because they will continue to do what they do best.
Those Killers seem to be doing fine by all accounts. I see no reason why they should hold back balance
You are delusional if you think trapper is fine.
You do realize killer mains have brought the survivor meta down to Windows of Opportunity, which was classed as a D tier perk for the longest time. (Not to say there are other strong perks, but the Survivor meta now is nothing compared to what it used to be)
Don't act as if this is one sided, they make balance changes for both sides.
The survivor meta also includes Adrenaline, Sprint Burst, Resilience, and (formerly) Made For This. People run Windows because they like Windows, not because it's the strongest thing left. I know you acknowledged that, kinda, but it still completely undoes your point.
The same is true of the killer meta, for the record. Neither "mains" have won some kind of war to ruin all their opponents' good stuff, both because that war doesn't exist and because the current state of things has a very wide variety of good tools to bring.
Basicly nothing. Just a few milliseconds less.
Can we pls stop with the content creator gospel?
Who said they are "high mmr"?
You can stack 3 or 4 Gen perks against anybody. Is that the way to go? No I don't think so. Becoming truly good with a killer is the way to go for me.
So less stacks so it's back to pre 6.1.0?
Id be fine with that.
I'm not pointing out hens for being a "content creator" he regularly plays competitive. In fact i disagree with probably 80% of what hens says, because hens thinks that the game is mostly fine and that SWF and competitive play is "fine" despite them having to come up with rules so the killer doesn't lose in 3 minutes. That is a philosophy problem i disagree with though, not a knowledge one.
I bring up hens because hens has 10k+ hours in this game and generally people with that many hours are going to know a little bit about what they are talking about.
That I agree on. Personally I think that the whole competetive scene is absolutely awful and doesn't represent how the majority of the games go.
Windows of Opportunity became meta because it was buffed with cool-down removal and increased aura range, thar perk went from useless to braindead.
That is true, but you don't balance games around what someone who just started playing the game last week does. You balance it around the people who know what they are doing and are able to exploit the game to its fullest potential. Any decent game designer will tell you that.
I would try to balance around the general middle. Swf in the right hands is busted. We all know that. But not everyone uses it that way. Making killers that strong to deal with that would make the game horrible to play for anybody. You also can't nerf swf. This is the problem BHVR has run into.
Save the Best for Last
Loses tokens when the obsession loses a health state by any means / Deactivates when the obsession is dead / Reactivates if another obsession is put in the game
Sloppy Butcher
Hooking the survivor removes the status
3-Gen
Survivors can remove "charges" from a completed gen and then repair it again once only 3 generators are left in the game. Removing charges lasts just as long as repairing. Killer's can be notified when a gen is being worked on for charges
(Just some guesses and ideas, nothing else)
If Mangled and Sloppy are overtuned, there are two ways:
Healing is already nerfed heavily. They nerfed Medkits and Self-Healing not long ago, but did not change anything about Mangled.
Medkits and Circle of Healing are not the only kinds of healing in the game, and healing overall has not been nerfed heavily. One could even argue that healing overall has been buffed to a small degree, considering both of the two self-heal options that were nerfed became better at altruistic healing.
It would be fair to say that self-healing was nerfed pretty hard, but that's not even close to the same thing as saying that healing overall has been nerfed heavily.
Personally, I wouldn't say all healing perks need to be nerfed heavily if Mangled is nerfed (and it's worth remembering that is an 'if', it could be a rework more than just a nerf), but it is fair to bring up the possibility that the sources of healing speed in the game might become overtuned if the most common source of healing slowdown is nerfed noticeably.
You don't balance around the middle. That is not something that is sustainable. This video explains the concept a bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203sI timestamped the relevant section. They are talking about team fortress, but the concept still applies. Basically, if you look at the kinds of things that super good survivors are capable of doing and then nerf those things, you won't affect other survivors.
For example. Lets look at killer shack. What is a way they could nerf killer shack that makes the structure much more dangerous for top tier survivor players without hurting low skill survivor players? How about making it so you can't see through it at all. Many of the maps have a ton of holes in the shack that survivors can see through that makes mindgaming it effectively impossible against a decent survivor.
But, if they took that away, and they made the structure mindgamable, now a killer might stand more of a chance against a top tier survivor. But how would that impact the low skill survivors? Well it wouldn't because they aren't checking at these "check spots" for the killer anyway, they are busy running into shack, camping the pallet, and dropping it right as they get hit anyway and going down 5 seconds later. So doing such a change won't hurt them at all.
On the flip side, low skill survivors vs high skill survivors. I still stand by that the greatest balance change that BHVR has ever done, was change ruin. Not nerfing it to 100%, that was stupid, i mean the change before that:
This ruin was a staple among every killer. For those who remember Monto. You always took ruin every game to "slow the game down just a little bit" But look at the effect here. This made doing gens as a new player MISERABLE. First of all, you could actually end up LOSING ton of progress on gens just due to landing regular skill checks, so now you had to hit great skill checks. Well, low skill survivors can barely hit skill checks as it is, let alone great skill checks. On top of that, the other option is to find the totem, something which was much easier said than done as a new player. This lead to the "gen tapping" meta, where you spammed m1 on the gen, so that you wouldn't get a skill check.
Obviously a horribly OP perk against newer/lesser skilled players.
What about the high skilled ones though? They didn't really care. They could constantly hit great skill checks in their sleep anyway, so this perk wasn't really that good against them (it was still used because there just weren't any good perks back then) but the perk didn't really do anything against them, On top of that, these survivors generally knew ruin was in play every game so would immediately start looking for it, and since they memorized totem spawn locations, it would generally last maybe 30-40 seconds against these types of teams.
So what change did they make?
This massively nerfed ruin against low skill survivors but massively buffed it against high skill survivors. Because killers at a low level, weren't able to exploit this version of ruin to its full effectiveness. On top of that, it promoted healthy play that forced the killer to pressure multiple survivors and generators in order to get value, rather than just hard camping like the other one did. High skill killers were able to do this much better than lower skill killers, making the perk much strong in those higher level games.
AFC is another example of this. In high tier games, facecamping is gonna lose you the game anyway, so its a bad strategy, but in low skill games it happens all the time. So the AFC nerfed this tactic in low level play, without really impacting high level play because it wasn't used there anyway.
There are plenty of these types of changes that can be done on both sides to only affect the level of play that you are targeting for the change.
This is the only situation in which a Mangled nerf would be acceptable imo, they'd have to nerf survivor heal speed perks as well. If they decide they want healing times to be more consistent across the board and that both need to be nerfed in order to do that, I'm fine with that. But nerfing Mangled standalone would make healing times too fast I think (and vice versa, if they only nerfed the survivor heal speed perks, then anti-heal might become too strong/frustrating to face on average).
If I had to make a change to Sloppy I'd reduce the Hemorrhage regression rate (for Sloppy specifically, not in general, so like how it currently increases the regression rate by 25% -> just flip that effect around the other way for slower regression). I don't think Mangled is a problem at all.
Ah, yeah, this old song, i know it. Sorry you can't heal during the chase no more :( Sorry you can't have 3 or 4 fast healing with 1 medkit. I'm sorry whole team doesn't have free 20 sec self-healing because of someone's one perk. Poor poor survivors with nerfed healing. It's not like healing is so free right now, that first healing perk is only on the 16th place in popularity.
So, returning to the topic, how you see nerfing Mangled and Sloppy with 20% longer healing, when, for example, Botany already neutralizes this effect and provides additional 30%? Seems very logical and fair to you, doesn't it?
I'll take being tunneled out over spending 30+ minutes in a match because the killer has a magnet in their boot which pulls them away from survivors and over to the nearest generator.
Unfortunately, BHVR has not deigned to share any stats with us recently, but even on NightLight (I put little stock into it), Trapper has 53% KR.
He seems to be doing fine.
holy whataboutism dude
Some of us have already experienced this meta before. I think @Aven_Fallen and I both did, back in 2018/19; this isn't something you need to get worked up over.
That's what I would hope for.
It does promote tunneling, unfortunately, but I don't know if anything can be done for that barring a basekit tunneling change.
Aw. Well. They got us with mft. So it was only a matter of time for killers as well hun.
It could also remain at 8 stacks and lose stacks when hitting bt-endurance. Maybe it could also somehow lose stacks in a camping - situation. That's genuinely the only issue with this perk in my opinion.
Would that work?
Disable it near hooked survivors and for like 3 seconds after so downing the unhooker and then immediately going for the tunnel with the reduced cooldown isn't a thing anymore.
I don't think that's the only change STBFL should get, but it addresses that specific issue.
I am not talking about Circle of Healing. This got butchered completely.
But self-healing is not really viable anymore IMO. At least I notice that I lose more games when people self-heal. Which is fine, because self-healing was too strong before and altruistic Healing was never really an issue since it requires two people.
But when we look at ho easily it is to apply mangled with Sloppy Butcher... The Killer has to do basically nothing to get the Slowdown. And it is no surprise that basically every Killer who is doing basic Attacks is using Mangled and every Killer who has an Add On which applies Mangled when using the power is using this Add On.
And this is not because Mangled is fine, it is quite clear that Mangled is really strong. And Hemorrhage comes on top of it (at least with Sloppy Butcher).
-> literally whole comment about healing in discussion about healing
-> whataboutism
ok, dude with 19k not whataboutism comments
nightlight is not a good metric to go by.
Nightlight is showing right now data from 21,482 games. And trapper has a 4.92% pick rate which means it is looking at 1056 games. This is hardly the amount of data you need to make any reasonable conclusions.
You know what else nightlight also shows? That skull merchant, sadako, pig, and pyramid head all have a higher kill rate than nurse. Guess we should nerf them too?