ScottJund's ideas on how to improve the game (video)
Don't know if this was already posted here, but worth a watch. @Peanits
Don't know if this was already posted here, but worth a watch. @Peanits
Read THIS post.
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Comments
collision doesn't hurt her at all and literally gives her hits and downs mid-chase, often rewarding her for misreading the survivor and punishing the survivor for making the right call. i realize you're a spirit main but her having mid-phase collision is objectively a pretty stupid mechanic. he outlines this in the video
along with the other changes he mentions in the videos (buffs to most killers and map changes) spirit definitely needs tweaking
i don't disagree with basically anything he said
I mean, from your comment it just seems like you're blindly defending the Nurse without arguing why multi blinks or absurd range are healthy.
You can say whatever you want that he wants those nerfs because "he has no clue about nurse", but nerfing multi blinks and range are pretty much consensus in the community. Even most (good) Nurse players I talked to agree that those add-ons are BS. But if you want her add-ons to remain the same and have a couple overpowered options while everything else just sucks, fine.
that person has been blindly defending nurse in like 4 separate threads
don't let them bait you
My take on the Pig stuff: yes, her power was designed to be RNG. RNG is fine-ish in most instances in this game, but not as an entire killer power. She needs SOME consistency.
Yea but you can use the collision to your advantage as survivor too, did you watch the clip? Having collision means she can be body blocked. It also means that you can bait her to pass through a pallet and then hit her with the pallet before she can react.
There are upsides and downsides to both, and I think it would be more detrimental if there was no collision mainly because then you wouldn't be able to do stuff like we did in the clip. She would have just flew right past all of us and got Dwight.
From my experience playing Spirit (and I play her quite a bit) collision during phasewalk is a godsend to her. Especially when people are running Iron Will.
I get that you can do some cool plays as survivors in specific scenarios, but having collision benefits the Spirit player way less situationally.
Well think about it this way... if she has no collision she can just run ahead of you to the pallet and come from the other direction. Whereas with collision she either has to come from behind (which is predictable) or she has to go all the way around to the other side of the pallet, which is slower and gives the survivor an opportunity to take another path (if they predict it).
That's what I would do. I'd just run through people and attack as they run into me, and they have no way to really tell what direction I'm going. It's not that hard to realize "oh this survivor turned around" mid-phase just using sound cues.
Point is, I don't think this would have the result you guys are looking for. It'd just open a new can of worms really.
What I would say is adjust the way her hitbox works coming out of phase so that's it's more strict. That way you have to be a lot more exact with your post-phase walk attack. I think that would have a much better result because it makes phase attacks more skillful compared to a normal attack.
If you are survivor against a Spirit and you suddenly find yourself bumping into her, that's your cue to get squirrelly with your movements. I rarely find people because they run into me and I didn't know it. Most of the time I knew where they were and I used my collision to block them from a window or something on purpose.
Operation health in DBD = 50% of perks are broken, Trapper has Nurses 4 blinks, Wraith can phase walk and hit survivors while invisible.
If you're a Spirit and you bump into a survivor, you get a free hit. That's the difference.
If you watched the Saw you know that Rigged games are Amanda's thing so (lore wise) it makes sense.
If the survivor doesn't react. The survivor can react to it and you miss the attack out of phase.
Lore is no excuse to have a rigged RNG system. If that were the case then they would just make it so you could never remove the trap, which actually makes MORE sense lore-wise since Amanda rigged the games so there was 0 chance to escape.
there is really no convincing you about anything regarding spirit
which is unfortunate, because you seem to be reasonable about pretty much everything else
colliding with a spirit does nothing for a survivor except tell them that they're about to die
of course, we're talking about decent spirit players
Spirits collision is really something that needs to be discussed. Overall, I dont think that Spirit requires Nerfs, just Tweaks.
Prayer Beads can be a Pink Add-On, without any problem. Even though, without collision it could be fine. Point is, you cannot nerf anything on Prayer Beads, it has only one effect. And I dont feel that adding a Downside would really be useful.
Regarding collision, playing vs Spirit is basically Rock-Paper-Scissor. If the Survivor wins, he gets distance or will be even able to lose her (which is rare, tbh). If Spirit wins, she gets a Hit. But if both choose the same option, it is not a Draw. The Survivor has exactly no benefit from bumping into a phasing Spirit, while Spirit will get a Hit.
And she would not be really worse without this change.
Regarding the other proposals:
Dont know about Gen Time vs. Hook Time. 100 seconds on a Gen is boring, I am not that good at hitting Great Skill Checks, so it might be possible that I need around 100 seconds for a single Gen and it is not really enjoyable. Rather a second Objective + Increase of Hook Times.
Regarding Killers, I dont agree to Huntress and Clown. Clown should not have a big Benefit from direct Bottle Hits. It is not that difficult to perfom, I am leveling Clown atm because of PGTW, and I am doing fine with direct Hits. Furthermore, with the Pinky Finger, it could be too much to have a Debuff AND be Exposed.
Regarding Huntress, I would not increase her Movement Speed by 1% for each missing Hatchet, but rather let er have 115% Movement Speed when she is out of Hatchets. This would not contradict with the Add-Ons which grant Extra Hatchets, and honestly, a 115% Movement Speed Huntress with two Hatchets left could be two much. But having her at 115% MS when out of Hatchets sounds reasonable, she does not have to abandon a chase to have a chance of downing a Survivor.
I also dont agree with Plague. Not doing anything while Broken is too much, but there needs to be a significant Debuff when doing Actions while Broken. Maybe something like Dying Light. Or after a while, the Survivor will be in Dying State. Simply something that wants Survivors to cleanse, but on the other Hand, Corrupt Purge would need some Tweaks, because it is without a doubt by far the best Range Attack and maybe a minimum amount of Corrupt Purge should hit to actually inflict damage.
With every other Killer, I would agree.
Aside from him wanting to prolong the game with more boring nothingness and not being understandable half the time talking about maps, it's a fine video.
"Don't hook near boxes then? Like that's pretty common sense. Or do and expect them to jump on it ASAP letting you come back and get another hook. The game shouldn't be balanced around you making mistakes."
It is not always possible to not hook them near a box. Plus, it is very realistic that you simply won't be able to go after them when they do that simply because you are preoccupied. You could break the current chase to go after the person on the box, but then the Trap isn't serving its purpose of stalling, is it?
"If you artificially influence the outcome then no, it's not RNG. If I rig a deck of cards so that I always get an ace and 4 random other cards, that's not RNG. Your entire argument falls apart and I don't even need to address anything else."
I think your entire argument fell apart the moment you said "4 random other cards," but that is just me. One result being guaranteed doesn't mean the other results are. The randomization is simply between three boxes instead of four. Arguing that it's overpowered or something is one thing, but you are arguing that the randomization is not randomization because it is changing the probabilities. Like, your logic just does not make sense. Exactly what do you call randomly putting a key into one of three boxes? Why does the randomness of the other three boxes not count simply because the game is waiting until you search a box to randomly generate a key?
Funny, I could say the same thing about you.
Except you'd be objectively wrong.
I've already talked a lot about this argument that "people lack all knowledge of Nurse" and few things annoy me more in these discussions. I see that thrown around here a lot, but it's never along with anything that actually explains that magic, hidden knowledge Nurse players have about the character that other people who have been playing this game for literal years don't. So please, when you drop something like that, explain what you mean.
typing tons of text doesn't mean you have anything of value to say
people have brought plenty of counter arguments to your attention, including myself, but it's been shown to be completely ineffective, so why should anyone bother? you aren't entitled to others' consideration if you cannot address what they say
It seems like a trend in these forums tbh. People post obvious bait/previously defeated arguments that no one can be bothered to answer anymore and then get mad when people don't engage on yet another pointless discussion.
Oh well.
Maybe because I just don't buy into this idea that Spirit has no counter play. She definitely does. It's just every time someone makes a point about some counter play you just go "BLARG that's not real counter play". It's like those anti-vaxxers that just ignore plain evidence right in front of them. Let's go down the list...
1) Stealth. Yes it's a counter play option. You basically play cautiously and hide when the killer is near and/or move to a new location if the killer is looking for you. You always make a point that you can't stealth and do gens, which is false. You totally can, it's just that when you are doing a gen and you hear the killer coming you leave. You don't wait around the gen or do anything to draw attention to yourself. You just leave. Find another gen and work on that while the killer wastes time looking around the other gen for you. It's not optimal, I will agree to that, but you definitely can do gens and hide from the killer. It seems to me that your idea of stealth is just hiding in a locker or on the edge of the map doing nothing. Yea that's stealth, but its not PRODUCTIVE stealth.
2) Iron Will and Spine Chill. "OMG perks as counters" yea well here is the thing. THEY EXIST. You can't just look at things in a bubble and pretend that everyone plays perkless. Perks exist in the game and therefore you have to consider them when talking counter play. True it may be more difficult to counter play Spirit without these perks, but when you DO have these perks it makes a very VERY huge difference. I know, I use them both all the time. They are both very effective against many killers. When I get a Spirit I tend to not even have trouble with her because of these perks. It helps me stealth her AND it helps in a chase. I get Spirits, GOOD Spirits, to waste a lot of time on me, usually even escaping the chase. You can sit there and say "perks are not counter play" until you are blue in the face but until the devs introduce a perkless mode that's not a valid argument. It's like, I could argue that Hag has no counter play if you don't use Urban Evasion and a flashlight, but that's not true either is it? And even though Hag is a very strong killer, if you have UE and a flashlight it will be a cake walk.
3) Windows. Windows are very strong against the Spirit because she can't vault while phasing. So long as you don't do anything super predictable, you can use the window to get her to waste her phase walk and keep the chase going. You vault a window in the right spot now she has to go around and by the time she gets to the other side her power is gone. I'm sure you will make a point about how this isn't counter play either, but it very much is. I generally ignore pallets and just go for windows against the Spirit, and it works. With or without my perks it works. You just have to use the unpredictably, as running straight for a window, making it obvious you will vault, isn't going to work.
4) Unpredictability and reading skills. If you act in unpredictable ways then it will be a lot hard for the Spirit to catch you. She will be constantly coming out of phase walk at the wrong time, or missing a juke and then wasting her power. And if you can read your opponent, ie. predict what they are going to do, then you can act even more unpredictably. Doing weird stuff that wouldn't make sense against any other killer in a chase will throw off the Spirit player and give you more distance in a chase. Knowing what she is thinking and acting on that prediction will allow you to avoid getting hit out of phase walk.
My point here is that Spirit can be counter played, it's just none of these counter play options seem to be good enough for you. I don't know what kind of counter play you expect to have, but as someone that generally does not have a problem playing against Spirit (at rank 1 surv against good Spirit players, and as a rank 1 Spirit player) I can tell you she indeed does have counter play. It's just most people lack the skills necessary to really do it, particularly when it comes to #4. And refusing to use perks to counter a killer does not mean the killer has no counter play. It just means you refuse to engage in that counter play.
Just like the Nurse situation, I'd love to see footage of a top level Spirit being consistently countered in chases.
Until I do, theorycrafting is just theorycrafting.
Stealth isn't counterplay IN CHASES. A great Spirit can be beaten depending on the level of the team and the size of the map, but she has no counterplay in chases. Not until I see it being consistently done.
Lmao
Anecdotal evidence is just anecdotal until there's footage and it's consistent, and this seems like a hard concept to grasp in these forums.
I could literally make the same demand.
Until someone can provide video proof that these killers are overpowered, where they just absolutely dominate every survivor in every game, then it's just theory crafting.
The only things I would say need fixing for Nurse, Spirit, and Billy are their add-ons. Multi-blink/Prayer Beads need to be changed, and Billy's add-ons should be higher rarity or something (this was something I agreed with on Scott's video). But at base, I don't believe these killers are overpowered or uncounterable. Strong? Yes. Can't be countered? No.
I mean, when the player legit master them, there are plenty of videos of no one being able to counter anything so
@thesuicidefox besides, dude, here's the thing. You're claiming to have knowledge that people here don't. A lot of people play Nurse and Spirit (mostly Nurse) and roflstomp everything and everyone on stream. I've never seen any of these players get countered in chases consistently. If you have the knowledge and skill that people in red ranks and veterans in this game do, everyone would appreciate if you recorded yourself doing it consistently. People learn, everybody wins.
If you're just going to theorycraft, it doesn't help anyone.
It's exactly the same thing as people who claim every killer is rank 1 viable but show nothing. You're not helping anyone.
i've addressed all of these in previous threads and i'm not spending time telling you over and over again why none of these work even semi-reliably in chases because the lack of information survivors have against spirit is tantamount to making everything guesswork and hoping the spirit messes up. people keep saying this to you
perks aren't counterplay, stop
you can keep your head in the sand about how little you can do against spirit all you want i guess but saying spirit's collision affects her just as badly as it affects survivor is borderline delusional and contextualizes the rest of your posts on this topic
what's especially nuts about these conversations is that the people who offer these "counterplay" solutions behave as though everyone else is just too stupid or unaware to have tried them out themselves, and act as if they're the messiah of killer mechanics with the magical knowledge of how to play against them informing the survivor rabble. you guys seriously think nobody has tried "using windows" against a spirit? give me a break, my god
I really hate when people list "Stealth" as a counter to a killer.
You realize you are literally saying "Counter the killer by never actually encountering the killer the whole match." That's not you countering the killer, that's avoiding them entirely because there's nothing you can do once a chase starts.
This thing is pretty much turning into an endless back-and-forth
it always has been an endless back and forth
i'd rather it be that than an endless echo chamber