The Reason why this Game is Survivor Sided
Disclaimer
Post was edited because... Lets be honest this game isn't fun for Killers, so I was pretty pissed at the time of creating the older one which was WAY SHORTER. But as for this post, we'll be going into my thoughts and some public opinions on why this game is still to this day Survivor Sided.
Also, i'm putting this here now cause i'm getting tired of seeing it. Yes, I know 2016 was way worse than 2019 (present day.) I know we shouldn't deny this, and I agree with that. This post is to discuss the here and now though, and the issues from 2016 that still exist to this day. So you have to keep that in mind...
Why Killer isn't fun anymore
Lets get into why Killer isn't inherently fun anymore, while this reflects Purple and Red ranks, it does not reflect Green ranks or below.
For one, loops. While I understand that this is a Survivors only way to really defend themselves, it isn't fun being looped around one pallet for 30 seconds each time. This can only be done by people who have gotten used to Survivor and are used to the spawns and mechanics of this game. While you won't find this much at Green ranks, you'll see this all the time at Purple and Red.
Survivors that know the layout of each map will use each pallet to the fullest, and if you're a Mid-Tier killer you're basically just done, you might as well eat the safe pallets because you can't mind-game or get around them. Which leads to another problem, the way the maps are designed you'll sometimes come across double pallets at very safe looping spots. For whatever reason, this is still in the game... And it shouldn't have made a major return in the first place. It was a headach to deal with this back in the day, so why was it brought back? Why take two steps back instead of one step forward? It doesn't really make a lot of sense now does it.
Another thing, MoM, I understand it is being re-purposed now, but the fact something like this got past BHVRs radar is shocking. The Perk itself has no counter, you can't power through it with a chainsaw, you can't Tier lll Myers it, you can't Pinky finger exposed it, you can't get past it. It is, by design, a free hit. Anyone who says otherwise either uses the perk regularly, or uses the perk because its being reworked, and want to make it worse for Killers than it already is.
Also another thing, combining all of that above will make generators fly by, but that'll be discussed further down in the post with its own section if you're interesting in reading.
Killers OP perks vs Survivors op perks
Now before anyone says it, yes, Killers have Noed, Ruin, Enduring, Spirit Fury, BBQ & Chili, Nurse's, etc. But when you think about it, all these perks can be negated. For one, Noed can be removed by simply just breaking totems before it even spawns, Ruin breaks within a minute of the game now, Enduring + Spirit Fury is only good on Billy and Leather Face, BBQ & Chili can be countered by lockers and being close to the hook now, and Nurse's only has a 24 meter range.
All these perks have a counter, as for Survivors only a few can be countered.
We have as stated above MoM, a free hit. Urban Evasion for Claudettes that like to sport brown clothes to make it even harder to find them because of the lighting difference for Killers and Survivors vision, DS which is now a tunneling perk but can be annoying when you're not even tunneling someone but it activates within the 60 seconds it has (But its still better than Pre-Patch DS so don't get mad over that), Balanced Landing which can't be countered, you just wait till its over and go after them, and with Maps like Lampkin Lane and the Crotus Asylum its a nightmare with their infinites, Borrow Time, which was nerfed but is still annoying to face during end-game especially with MoM active, Self Care, what can I say, Botany Knowledge + Self Care = Oof, and I won't mention Dead Hard cause you can bait it out... its just annoying is all.
All of this for Survivors though, could be negated if infinite's, multiple safe pallets, and MoM for end game and continuing said looping wasn't a thing. I know they're now finally shortening the loops for this game, but it shouldn't have taken 3 years to do this...
Killers Add-ons
I'm aware before anyone says it, "But Killers have Infantry Belt + Iridecent Heads, Pinky Finger, Insta-Chainsaw Billy, Infinite Tier lll Myers, Prayer Beads, etc." And yes, they have all these things. But how often do you normally see these things? Not often right? Why? Cause it doesn't reward you for playing Hyper aggressive and the intent to end the game as fast as possible. People DC over this for one, so most people don't use this stuff. Killers are aware of that, and so nobody uses them. And these things shouldn't exist in-general to be honest, but they do because of the current flaws in the design of this game. And I don't even need to mention this but, most if not all of these combos are Ultra Rare Offerings, and you don't see them often if at all for several blood-webs.
Sounds and Scratch-marks
Do I even need to say it? Still broken, still misleading. I don't understand why with the new lighting and engine they brought awhile back is this stuff STILL BROKEN.
Like it makes chases really hard to follow with how it currently is, everything is inconsistent or in-general doesn't work correctly... This seriously needs to be addressed and updated with the current build we're on.
Map Design and why its a problem
Again, I know they're going to fix this now. But I don't understand why it took them this long to do it. Why did maps like Lampkin Lane, Badham Pre-School, The Game, Shelter Woods, ANY OF THE SWAMP MAPS, Some of the Cornfield maps, Crotus Asylum, etc have to exist? I don't understand the design choice for any of these maps, were they intentionally supposed to be Survivor Sided/Killer Sided? Or were these maps just rushed for the DLC? Cause I don't get it, and most of these maps have infinite's btw, and why is that? Why do infinite's still exist in 2019. And not to mention maps like Crotus Prenn Asylum with their safety infinite pallets... Like seriously, why? Why even.
Most of these maps are Survivor Sides though don't get me wrong, mostly all maps are Survivor sided if they have at least one infinite and 10+ safety pallets that're un-mind-gameable like the corn maps see-through walls, and Autohavens low walls that just require you to eat pallets. Like none of this is fun, why?
The Generator rushing crisis
Before any of you just click off this post, hear me out, seriously. While Generator rushing can be stopped by simple map pressure, most Mid-Tier Killers don't have inherent map pressure skills like Nurse, Spirit, or Billy. They require more forward thinking and mind-games to put down a Survivor. The problem is, with how the looping is in this game, and most of the loop spots in some maps being safety pallets, it just doesn't pose well for Killers.
Hell, even Billy can struggle sometimes if its a SWF, and even Spirit too. A Pro-Nurse not so much, but hey its a nurse were you expecting anything else? Its not fun playing or playing against her so...
The thing is, looping is such a huge problem in this game that it contributes to this current crisis we face. With no secondary objectives, or shorter loops, most generators get done within a few minutes of the game even starting. I think as people learn to play Survivor, they realize how easy it is to loop certain areas more, and as they learn this, they learn the tiles more effectively to the point that it gets ridiculous how easy it is to loop most Mid-Tier Killers.
The way maps, loops, and killers are currently designed doesn't actually favor killers... It more or less bully's their short comings except in the case of Killers that have powers that can work around this. But as we all know "We make fun Killers not OP killers" and to that I say, how is a Killer that has no capability's to get around the games current bad designs fun? It isn't fun playing Bully simulator every match because the devs are too scared of making the next Billy or Nurse, and we'll get into that part below.
"We make fun killers, not OP ones"
This mentality makes no sense, as stated at the end of the last section above, why is it "fun" to face badly designed maps and loops in a game that is so dependent on time? Like honestly, when was the last time any of you ever got bored of playing Nurse, Billy, or Spirit? or even all three in a session? Its not fun playing the same Killers that punish this bad map design, so why is it that the devs are so scared of making any more OP killers? We already have Nurse, if you want to destroy a team every match just "git gud" with her and there you go. its a bit too late to go back on that, its already established. You can nerf her in a way yeah, but we'll always have a really dominant killer over the rest.
So why is it such an issue to create any more "OP killers." Is it because you guys are scared of the backlash from the Survivor side of this community or something? I can understand that with Legion, but Legion wasn't OP... He was just annoying, and his design in-general was flawed from the start, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have been reworked or anything like that... Instead of burying your problems with nerfs, you could actually consider why things are the way they are and improve on them...
Conclusion
I understand before anyone even thinks about saying it again. I know they're reworking this FINALLY... But to let things get so bad to this point, I fear for anything they create in the future that makes it worse. MoM is proof of this, and anyone from BHVR should of seen this a mile away. But they didn't, and I'm not 100% sure why, but I have an idea...
If anything, this game deserves balance, this game is unique and really fun when everyone isn't sweating so hard over nothing. People in this community can be smart, forward thinking, fun to play, and even nice to talk to. Of course we have our toxicity but lets be honest, other games I've seen have had WAY WORSE community's... Lets not make this one be any different.
TL;DR
Loops are a problem in this game, I understand most things I talked about here are being fixed, but its reflecting on these things that will hopefully have us not repeat the mistakes of the past.
Certain maps, Perks, Add-ons, Most Loops, and Killers are and will be discussed here, so I suggest anyone who's reading the TL;DR to check any specific sections they're only interested in above.
Comments
This game was always in survivor favor.
They said that they're fixing maps wow. Pallets are OK and dealable with, but maps designs, specifically the placement of windows and dropdowns need some looking at, also the size of specific pallet loops, but it's all down to map design. The devs acknowledged it and are working to fix it.
The game is obviously not survivor sided, stop spreading misinformation. Using that as a scapegoat for when survivors are given strong perks (MoM) that will get nerfed or if you lose is a bad habit.
@poopman some people just want to play with friends though. It's unfair. They should make Solo survivor as strong as SWF and buff all the killers to be able to deal with the survivors.
Spirit and Nurse would need no buffs obviously.
Though I sympathize with the points OP made, I don't think he has enough objectivity here. Killer is by far the easiest way to BP grind. Killer is not difficult by any means. I main Trapper and can easily hit red ranks (regardless of being colorblind and not able to see blood or scratches). It is all about decisions and being willing to drop a chase if it looks like it will cost you too much.
I 3-4k regularly, not counting matches with 2 or so DC. The gen rush can get you vs organized SWF, but it is not impossible. The minute I realize I have a good SWF, I switch tactics and start hitting their weaknesses, which is usually altruism and finding the gen jockies of the team. Funny how the chase member keeps following you when you focus on the jockies.
@poopman oh didn't get it XD sorry.
We can't trust it because it doesn't count DC, suicide on hook, etc
~50% escape rate with a ~50% dc rate
I mean entire post complained about map design, survivor perks and generator being completed. Map design and loops have been this way for at least 2 years+ and they were even worse than before. Also a recent change to farm maps was boarding up cold-farm jungle gyms, so your information is outdated, inaccurate and false. Survivor perks vs killer perk balance hasn't changed much. Developers simply do not understand that 1 killer perk has to equal 4 survivor perks and none of them equal that besides Hex:ruin(?). Gen rushing is a big problem in red ranks, but that's largely because killers have no tools to stall generators. You can have Iridescent in chaser, Iridescent in devious(apply pressure) and still have bronze or no medal for stalling generators. I mean, kicking generators is a joke in regards to regression a generator, the perks they release to stall the game are horrifically bad and hitting a survivor repetitively so that they spam healing enough to stall the game out is extremely difficult for when players are good at the game(due to looping) unless your playing a strong killer.
"Each map has a range of pallets (minimum and maximum pallet count). If the minimum number of pallets for that map has not been reached and there are no more valid pallet spawning locations, the game will then break the rules and spawn the remaining pallet(s) wherever it can. This is why you might rarely get a double pallet. The silver lining is that when this happens, you have the absolute minimum number of pallets for that map."
Why is it even possible for a maps minimum number of pallets to be greater than valid spawn locations? Valid spawns should literally be the most amount of pallets that can spawn.
Author good letter u wrote.I think why killers only 14% .new player bought game installed it.choose killer and start play.And first game SWF team with voice flaslights toolboxes.and after 1stgame new player throw killer's side.Now survivors in game 70%.Killers game now unattractive with this emblem system.kill 4 survivors but u play bad and no pip :D I think devs must no react if main survivors will dissatisfied that difficult run from killer.but today survivors control map with voice and without voice too,and today killer difficult chase and catch survivors its incorrect.i hope in future make killer's game good and born to survivors fear and responsibility for your actions in game process.
and I don't understand why freddy rework?he was good anti genrush killer.but now?dream pallet teleport>why need dream for new freddy???what power?
@TreemanXD That isn't good...
And now at purple ranks I’m being paired with R15 survivors:/
That's a half truth, it hasn't always been in mind to be survivor sided, its just bad game design led us here...
Play a SWF with any Mid-Tier killer, tell me how long you last before you pull hair from your scalp.
I agree with the windows and dropdowns, but I don't agree that this is spreading "misinformation" because clearly it isn't if they're taking time to (finally) fix it. I do agree though, map design plays a crucial point in how loops work in this game, and as we all know, most maps are terrible designed. You can't deny most of them had the intent to be Survivor sided with some of the loops they pull of, not to mention the 90+ safe pallets around the corner if the infinite safe pallet is destroyed.
I already know they're fixing this though, this post is to just keep in mind to not repeat past mistakes. You learn from the past, not repeat it for similar lazy results.
For some reason they don't take that into account and still display the chart...
You can still see the killers red stain at some angels of those jungle gyms.
The rest of this I agree with, they claim they're looking into buffing Pop Goes the Weasel, but I don't see how that really fixes anything.
Also I complained mostly about map design because the maps in these games are horrible designed for balance, once they fix the loops though, you'll most likely expect way less gen rushing as looping will last half as long now.
Ouch, I partially blame the issue for green ranks on de-rankers trying to go to a "less sweaty rank" but make it harder for Killers that're not at their skill set.
And yeah, I sometimes get paired with green ranks at rank 1-2 also. But that's kinda normal now... for some reason.
They need to put a 2nd objective since killer can struggle alot if there swf with 2nd objective included it makes the game balance for both sides
1. Survivor will not get bored by holding m1
2.killers will have fun and dont have to steuggle to get survivors
Basically.
Peanits, you did not mention anything about the generators, you think they're fine?
@Th3Nightmare The generators are not the problem, its the map design and loops that cause generator rushing to exist.
That, and with no 2nd objective it causes generators to fly by in a SWF. They're fixing the loops and map design though, so we'll most likely see less generator rushing with Mid-Tier killers soon.
But what does that have to do with the points I was bring up here though...
This dude can't word the problems of the game any better. I think the Mods should consider to look at our suggestions to change the game a little, so that it'll speed up the process of buffing/nerfing killers/perks. While also improving the game itself via map changes/reworks, create better killers that are actually viable, and add new mechanics to keep us immersed. This game has so much missing potential, and I think the answer lies with the communities' opinions/ideas.
Thank you for reading this, just shoving my opinion inside here.
Its odd how people don't view it this way. Most people (older players) just think the games fine cause in 2016 you could break hooks forever, iron grasp and Agitation was the meta, and you could 99% gens.
Yes, the past was worse than now... That doesn't justify the bad design choices of today though.
Exactly. I played since Day 1.
Just cause infinites are gone doesn't mean the game is currently balanced.
Besides, whenever someone uses infinites as an example of a "nerf" to Survivors, is always makes me ######### myself.
You can't nerf something that never should have existed.
EXACTLY! Why do infinite's even exist? Is it like a cop out for the map design or something?
I don't get it, why do we need 10+ safe pallets per map, why do infinites need to be a thing, why, why, oh why.
Pallets aren't infinites.
Infinites were back before Window Entity blockers. Survivors could very easily abuse multiple windows and the Killer legit could never do anything about it.
Also you know all the windows that are randomly boarded up sometimes? Yeah, none of that.
I agree pallets are annoying. But they are NOT infinites.
"..Developers simply do not understand that 1 killer perk has to equal 4 survivor perks.." Perhaps you don't understand that this is only true if a killer perk affect only 1 survivor. B&C affect only one survivor? And Hex Ruin? And nurse calling if someone if healing another surv? So.. that's not true.
No that is not at all what I mean, i'm talking about infinite's like the Crotus prenn asylum, or one of the cow maps slaughter houses.
I wasn't talking about pallets being infinite's though, some infinite's do have pallets are them.
@FireHazard read my first message before freddy please
@UkilledLegion Its really hard to read, but what i'm understand is... SWF are a problem with voice coms, you kept getting SWF most of the day, and loops played a factor into it with the bad map design as well.
I agree with some of this I guess? I can't really understand it because its not written very well though...
Lots of reading, but I feel your pain as a killer main.
Don't forget to mention that, at times, lobby waits can be upwards of 10 minutes. And after that long a wait, you get a SWF (with flashlights and insta heals) all running DS, MoM, BT and Adrenaline. It can be very frustrating, especially if you play the way survivors want you to (no camping or tunneling). At the end of the day though, its just a game. So, because none of these people are coming to my house for dinner or meeting me out for drinks, IDGAF..... I play my way.
A quote on my Steam profile I love - "You're the killer. Not a homemaking wife baking apple pies. Not a social worker helping homeless people get back on their feet. A killer. Your job is to sacrifice survivors to the Entity. And the trial has given you all the necessary tools to do so. There is no right or wrong way to play. Just play."
👍️
That quote is very true.
This is a really, really good post that goes in-depth as to why Killers who aren't Nurse, Spirit, Hag, or Billy can struggle so much so often at higher ranks.
In my experiences, green ranks are very similar to purple and red. If I had to guess, it's because Survivors don't want to risk getting to red ranks and waiting 20-30 minutes for a single game.
Sounds seem to be getting an update in the next patch, but it probably won't solve everything. I think we'll need a couple of patches to completely fix the sounds. Scratch marks have been bugged for a while now. I've had games where a Survivor turned and the scratch marks acted as if they kept going forward. Sometimes they will only spawn on the ground and not catch onto objects beside them. It gets really annoying.
I'm really hoping that Haddonfield is the next map to be reworked. It still has so many infinites that have no counters aside from playing a specific Killer.
This, all of this.
Its a pain things have been in such a bad state for awhile when it comes to scratch marks, sounds, map design, and pallets. We'll finally see something for two of those 4 things, but the other two, scratch marks and sounds, idk how long that'll take to fix.
@weirdkid5 false. You can absolutely nerf something that shouldn't have existed. Any time a mechanic is removed is an example of this. Either it was accounting for an outdated meta or it was something that shouldn't have existed. Trying to claim that nerfing something like infinites doesn't count as a nerf is an example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Thus infinite removal would be a valid rebuttal to for example the claim that "Survivors are never nerfed" or something similar.
so are powerful survivor perks dumb dumb