NOED & DS need to be removed

DocOctober

Both are Perks that reward bad play from the user, which is something I find despicable in a game that is supposed to be based on skill.

DS rewards the user by screwing up a chase and getting caught. It completely resets any progress the Killers has worked towards in that chase and can oftentimes make the difference between a kill or not, especially end-game.

NOED rewards the user for not being able to put enough pressure on the Survivors to prevent all Generators from powering. It tends to give a lot of kills that regarding the circumstances, are not deserved/earned by the Killer.

I'm completely against the usage of either Perk and would like them both removed from the game. Both Survivors and Killers should rely on their personal skill in a chase, not on crutches.

And yes, I'm aware that technically, Survivors can disable NOED before it even comes into play, but I couldn't care less about that. The Perk shouldn't exist in the first place.

EDIT: I'm adding a rework suggestion for NOED:

NOOD: No One Outruns Death, no longer a Hex Perk.

You are animated by an unseen force when the Survivors are on the verge of escaping. Once at least one Exit Gates are powered, cool-downs on successful and missed attacks are decreased by 10/15/20 % and your movement speed is increased by 6/9/12 %.

No more one-hits, but the speed of a cloaked Wraith on Tier III and fast hits.

If the Killer also had the full stacks left on the reworked STBFL, they would be quite a fast machine gun Killer.

NMCKE

DocOctober said:

DS rewards the user by screwing up a chase and getting caught. It completely resets any progress the Killers has worked towards in that chase and can oftentimes make the difference between a kill or not, especially end-game.

NOED rewards the user for not being able to put enough pressure on the Survivors to prevent all Generators from powering. It tends to give a lot of kills that regarding the circumstances, are not deserved/earned by the Killer.

@DocOctober I completely agree with your DS statement and reasoning however I completely disagree with your NOED suggestion. Okay, let me state the obvious meta which is gen rushing, games are just too fast killers. Now think of NOED as a hard counter to this strategy, if the survivors gen rush you, they won't have enough time to cleanse every totem. If the survivors do try to cleanse totems, they are not focusing on generators which buys the killer time. In a sense, it's like a reverse ruin which can catch multiple survivors by surprise.

DocOctober said:

NOED rewards the user for not being able to put enough pressure on the Survivors to prevent all Generators from powering.

@DocOctober I want you to not use ruin, just see how much control you have over the survivors on generators. I can guarantee you that you won't have no more than 5-7 minutes that games unless the survivors you are facing are low ranked or just joking around.

ASpazNamedSteve

I agree.

DocOctober

@Nickenzie
I despise Hex Perks in general. Not a single one of my Killers (I have levelled them all) uses Ruin. I'm doing fine without it.

And as I also said: I despise Perks that reward people for their mistakes. I don't care whether or not a Perk has counters or is "needed" in a current meta, they need to go.

NMCKE

DocOctober said:

@Nickenzie
I despise Hex Perks in general. Not a single one of my Killers (I have levelled them all) uses Ruin. I'm doing fine without it.

And as I also said: I despise Perks that reward people for their mistakes. I don't care whether or not a Perk has counters or is "needed" in a current meta, they need to go.

@DocOctober How does Ruin or NOED reward you for your for mistakes? Not that I don't disagree with you but I'm just curious as to how you see NOED and Ruin as a handicap to killer's when it's not the killer fault. The survivors have more control than the killer on how fast the game will go. Even the best killers like Nurse without ruin would have to play out of her mind to do well. All killers have to rely on pressure (momentum), if your applying a lot of pressure, the game will slow down. While applying little to no pressure at all will cause the game to go faster which is something you don't want. The problem is that most killers can't apply pressure fast enough, a good example is trying to down a survivor. If a survivor loops you for 3 minutes, that was 3 minutes of you having no pressure has caused the other 3 survivors time to do generators. C'mon you'll have to admit at one point that you played a map where one survivor looped you for a great amount of time and you couldn't do much about it due to the pallet spawns, not because of YOUR MISTAKE. Ruin slows the game by allowing the killer to go for long durations of not applying any pressure at all which NOED punishes survivors for NOT cleansing all of the totems because they took advantage of you having no pressure which is something killers struggle with.

bleep275

D'S yes

NOED, no. If you have issues with noed then break the totems before you finish the gens

DocOctober

@Nickenzie said:
DocOctober said:

@Nickenzie

I despise Hex Perks in general. Not a single one of my Killers (I have levelled them all) uses Ruin. I'm doing fine without it.

And as I also said: I despise Perks that reward people for their mistakes. I don't care whether or not a Perk has counters or is "needed" in a current meta, they need to go.

@DocOctober How does Ruin or NOED reward you for your for mistakes? Not that I don't disagree with you but I'm just curious as to how you see NOED and Ruin as a handicap to killer's when it's not the killer fault. The survivors have more control than the killer on how fast the game will go. Even the best killers like Nurse without ruin would have to play out of her mind to do well. All killers have to rely on pressure (momentum), if your applying a lot of pressure, the game will slow down. While applying little to no pressure at all will cause the game to go faster which is something you don't want. The problem is that most killers can't apply pressure fast enough, a good example is trying to down a survivor. If a survivor loops you for 3 minutes, that was 3 minutes of you having no pressure has caused the other 3 survivors time to do generators. C'mon you'll have to admit at one point that you played a map where one survivor looped you for a great amount of time and you couldn't do much about it due to the pallet spawns, not because of YOUR MISTAKE. Ruin slows the game by allowing the killer to go for long durations of not applying any pressure at all which NOED punishes survivors for NOT cleansing all of the totems because they took advantage of you having no pressure which is something killers struggle with.

I don't have a problem with Ruin. When I said that I despise Hex Perks, I meant it in the way that I despise their destructibility and thus don't run any myself.

So forgive me, but I will not reply to the Ruin part, because that's not what my thread is about. People can use Ruin as often as they want, I personally don't run it on any Killer as I don't like having a disabled Perk within 30 seconds of starting the game.

And yes, NOED may punish Survivors for bad play (not cleansing totems), but it also rewards the Killer's failure at putting up pressure, which is the part which I dislike about it.

As I said before, I don't really care if a Perk has counterplay or not, if they reward bad play on the user's side, they shouldn't exist in the game since the game is supposed to be about your skill and your skill only. If you fail at doing something, you should be punished, not rewarded.

unknown

This content has been removed.

powerbats

I agree with @DocOctober on this, as a Trapper main i use no hex perks because often times 2 or 3 are right next to each other and out in the open. Most games the match starts and when I ran a warning perk it'd pop off within the 1st 5-10 second of match starting.

As a Claudette main I got to rank 9 without ever using DS, I just grabbed it to test it out after being griefed several times and found I was making more mistakes since I knew i had it. I got sac'd 6 straight times. While 2 of those were due to griefers the other 4 were just me playing poorly compared to normal.

The game isn't supposed to reward bad plays but good plays and neither of these does that.

Techn0

@powerbats said:
I agree with @DocOctober on this, as a Trapper main i use no hex perks because often times 2 or 3 are right next to each other and out in the open. Most games the match starts and when I ran a warning perk it'd pop off within the 1st 5-10 second of match starting.

As a Claudette main I got to rank 9 without ever using DS, I just grabbed it to test it out after being griefed several times and found I was making more mistakes since I knew i had it. I got sac'd 6 straight times. While 2 of those were due to griefers the other 4 were just me playing poorly compared to normal.

The game isn't supposed to reward bad plays but good plays and neither of these does that.

I love Trapper aesthetically and from a game play perspective but I can't play him for the life of me. Too much time to setup. Mad props if you can actually play him without Ruin.

NMCKE

DocOctober said:

And yes, NOED may punish Survivors for bad play (not cleansing totems), but it also rewards the Killer's failure at putting up pressure, which is the part which I dislike about it.

@DocOctober I think I know where your coming from because NOED can reward killers for their mistakes. However just keep this at the back of your head, most killers are weak, and can't apply pressure as fast as Nurse can. It's why you see Wrath and Freddy use NOED because regardless of how skillful the player is, they always get gen rushed but that's not their fault, the killer itself doesn't allow the player to be skillful. Yeah they can play a different killer but they might not want to.

DocOctober

@Nickenzie said:
@DocOctober I think I know where your coming from because NOED can reward killers for their mistakes. However just keep this at the back of your head, most killers are weak, and can't apply pressure as fast as Nurse can. It's why you see Wrath and Freddy use NOED because regardless of how skillful the player is, they always get gen rushed but that's not their fault, the killer itself doesn't allow the player to be skillful. Yeah they can play a different killer but they might not want to.

Yes, but that is a problem of fundamentally flawed game mechanics and shouldn't be "fixed" with Perks.

only1biggs

Agreed..but while we're at it, remove Adrenaline and Unbreakable. A perk shouldn't change a game.

But they won't remove them..suggest changes, not just salty ramblings

NMCKE

DocOctober said:

Yes, but that is a problem of fundamentally flawed game mechanics and shouldn't be "fixed" with Perks.

@DocOctober I strongly agree with your statement and is something I'm trying to understand. Why use perks balance the game? It should be a rework of the game mechanics like pallet vacuum which helps with looping, not a perk Developers, I know your trying but NEVER use perks to balance a game.

DocOctober

@Nickenzie said:
@DocOctober I strongly agree with your statement and is something I'm trying to understand. Why use perks balance the game? It should be a rework of the game mechanics like pallet vacuum which helps with looping, not a perk Developers, I know your trying but NEVER use perks to balance a game.

My point exactly.

Wolf74

@DocOctober said:
Both are Perks that reward bad play from the user, which is something I find despicable in a game that is supposed to be based on skill.

DS rewards the user by screwing up a chase and getting caught. It completely resets any progress the Killers has worked towards in that chase and can oftentimes make the difference between a kill or not, especially end-game.

NOED rewards the user for not being able to put enough pressure on the Survivors to prevent all Generators from powering. It tends to give a lot of kills that regarding the circumstances, are not deserved/earned by the Killer.

I'm completely against the usage of either Perk and would like them both removed from the game. Both Survivors and Killers should rely on their personal skill in a chase, not on crutches.

And yes, I'm aware that technically, Survivors can disable NOED before it even comes into play, but I couldn't care less about that. The Perk shouldn't exist in the first place.

Simpley, NO.
These perks are not on the same level.
Noed is still in control of the survivor IF it ever triggers or not.
It has a build in counterplay and if the survivor decide to ignore it, that is THEIR fault.
The killer just prepared himself for the lategame and made the choice to play the complete early game with just 3 perks instead of 4. He payed for this benefit in the end and the survivor had been to lazy to do totems, but rushed the gens.
Why should the killer be denied of the ability to prepare for that?
It is just another way to stop gen rush and force the survivor to do different objectives.

Larcz

I realy don't think devs remove any perks just Customize to game and balance.

DocOctober

@Wolf74 said:

@DocOctober said:
Both are Perks that reward bad play from the user, which is something I find despicable in a game that is supposed to be based on skill.

DS rewards the user by screwing up a chase and getting caught. It completely resets any progress the Killers has worked towards in that chase and can oftentimes make the difference between a kill or not, especially end-game.

NOED rewards the user for not being able to put enough pressure on the Survivors to prevent all Generators from powering. It tends to give a lot of kills that regarding the circumstances, are not deserved/earned by the Killer.

I'm completely against the usage of either Perk and would like them both removed from the game. Both Survivors and Killers should rely on their personal skill in a chase, not on crutches.

And yes, I'm aware that technically, Survivors can disable NOED before it even comes into play, but I couldn't care less about that. The Perk shouldn't exist in the first place.

Simpley, NO.
These perks are not on the same level.
Noed is still in control of the survivor IF it ever triggers or not.
It has a build in counterplay and if the survivor decide to ignore it, that is THEIR fault.
The killer just prepared himself for the lategame and made the choice to play the complete early game with just 3 perks instead of 4. He payed for this benefit in the end and the survivor had been to lazy to do totems, but rushed the gens.
Why should the killer be denied of the ability to prepare for that?
It is just another way to stop gen rush and force the survivor to do different objectives.

I think I gave my reasons why.

Perks should not fix broken mechanics.

NMCKE

DocOctober said:

I think I gave my reasons why.

@DocOctober I highly doubt the developers will go as far as REMOVING a perk because they didn't do that with Decisive Strike. They thought Decisive Strike was worth trying to save so they took their valuable time to rework it. Currently, I love the their version of Decisive Strike, it's more killer friendly

Since you don't like the, current state of NOED, how would you rework it? I'm just curious of how you would change it because I seen your other post about perk balance which by the way you did amazing on, so I want to see the direction you'll take with NOED

DocOctober

Alright, let's say "remove" as in remove the current functionality. I know that the devs won't delete a Perk.

I'd prefer it if NOED would have no one-hit, but a greater and permanent movement speed buff. Kind of like a No One Outruns Death. A 6/9/12 percentage would be good. That gives most Killers the speed of a cloaked Wraith on Tier 3.

SadonicShadow

@DocOctober said:
Alright, let's say "remove" as in remove the current functionality. I know that the devs won't delete a Perk.

I'd prefer it if NOED would have no one-hit, but a greater and permanent movement speed buff. Kind of like a No One Outruns Death. A 6/9/12 percentage would be good. That gives most Killers the speed of a cloaked Wraith on Tier 3.

+1 I would be fine with the instadown going away if it meant the speed and cooldown side of NOED got buffed. Also if the instadown got removed then the perk should no longer be a hex.

NMCKE

DocOctober said:

Alright, let's say "remove" as in remove the current functionality. I know that the devs won't delete a Perk.

I'd prefer it if NOED would have no one-hit, but a greater and permanent movement speed buff. Kind of like a No One Outruns Death. A 6/9/12 percentage would be good. That gives most Killers the speed of a cloaked Wraith on Tier 3.

@DocOctober Great idea, I would careless if that was a possible change! One of my main things I look for is, will the perk change be fun for both survivors and killers alike. Your idea is really fun, GREAT JOB because no one likes getting NOED.

Master

@DocOctober said:

@Nickenzie said:
@DocOctober I think I know where your coming from because NOED can reward killers for their mistakes. However just keep this at the back of your head, most killers are weak, and can't apply pressure as fast as Nurse can. It's why you see Wrath and Freddy use NOED because regardless of how skillful the player is, they always get gen rushed but that's not their fault, the killer itself doesn't allow the player to be skillful. Yeah they can play a different killer but they might not want to.

Yes, but that is a problem of fundamentally flawed game mechanics and shouldn't be "fixed" with Perks.

Its sad, but devs actually try to fix their fundamentally flawed game mechanics with perks all the time