Killer should be able to DC during Endgame
I personally don't see the Point in having to watch the Survivors jiggle their Physics at the Exit Gate.
Maybe you can put some other Conditions in. Like, that all Survivors are either injured or healthy. or at least not on a Hook.
but i don't see the point in forcing the Killer to either wait out the Survivors, or "try to get a Kill anyway" As if that is always that possible.
Does it help and teach good Habits? No. But we don't do that with Survivors either so who cares at this point.
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While I completely agree with you, the examples people are giving is just straight up whataboutism, there is one point made. Until the killer abandoning is able to create a killer bot, instead of just outright ending the game, a lot of endgame related survivor tome challenges or weekly quests would be made infinitely harder, if not in some MMR brackets impossible. Killer players would abandon every time you're about to get out through the exit gate, or when you wait to get the hatch after your teammates escape. It'd be quite the nuisance in that regard and not really solve the actual problem of survivors 'holding the killer hostage' for the full 2 minutes collapse timer. I'm all for letting the killer leave early, its just not really possible with the way the game currently works.
But the game is NOT literally over in EGC, the Killer just feels like the game is over because they didn't do well.
Survivors are given the abandon option when everyone is slugged; otherwise it would take four minutes to bleed out. It does not take the Killer four minutes to push Survivors out the gate, nor does it even take four minutes if they choose not to. Their wounds regarding wanting to abandon after the gens are done are entirely self-inflicted.
If the killer is done the game is over, simple as that. Killers shouldn't have to push them out or wait out the full 2 minutes almost every time because frequently there is a survivor that waits until the last second to leave.
If you want to use that logic then it can be argued that survivors should not be able to instantly abandon once everyone is slugged because what if Unbreakable, Conviction etc. Heck if the last survivor standing has Plot Twist and are injured they can down themself and insta-abandon, which is ridiculous.
If the killer is done the game is over, simple as thatIf at any point one side just stops playing the game is over. The game could be 15 seconds in and if the killer stops playing the game is over. That doesn't mean we should just go to abandon at any point of the game.
If you want to use that logic then it can be argued that survivors should not be able to instantly abandon once everyone is slugged because what if Unbreakable, Conviction etcLet's say BHVR spent time, that could be spent on bugs or new content, coding to detect whether any survivor has an active Unbreakable, Conviction, or other perk that would allow to get them off the ground, and if any was in play then the abandon would not appear.
If they wasted the time doing that, would you agree that survivors should be the only ones to have the abandon option in this scenario? Or is it a red herring to the issue?
Heck if the last survivor standing has Plot Twist and are injured they can down themself and insta-abandon, which is ridiculous.It shouldn't as plot twist doesn't trigger the abandon mechanic - something they put in when they introduced abandons just based on killer worries about a hypothetical.
I'm not arguing that killers should be able to up and abandon at any point in the game.
I think the killer should be able to resign or abandon once a gate has been open for 60 seconds. A perfectly reasonable option. If the killer wants to keep contesting the match they don't have to resign. But if the killer doesn't have a target in sight and/or the survivors are just sitting in the exit gate, the killer should not have to push them out.
As for that slug scenario you're overcomplicating it. Instead of letting survivors instantly abandon they could add a 10-20 second delay so if someone has Unbreakable or something else they can make a play before the rest of the team becomes bots. A very simple solution.
I'll have to test Plot Twist if I ever get the motivation to play survivor again. Probably won't happen until Halloween and I'll forget.
the killer would be replaced with a bot so you would get your adept.
I think the killer should be able to resign or abandon once a gate has been open for 60 seconds. A perfectly reasonable option.A game design proposal isn't a question of being reasonable or not by itself. Its a question of what do be want in the game (subjective) and what type of gameplay will occur based on that change (predictive).
If the killer wants to keep contesting the match they don't have to resign.I'm, openly, a proponent of more abandon options. I hate the end game as killer, especially when it gets drawn out, and have no attachment to my kill rate. If I had a survivor on hook and the others were gathering for the save (especially if I had to wait for them to heal up), I'd probably just abandon and move onto a more interesting game (right now I play it out to be a good sport, but if there was an abandon that is the game is giving me permission to leave).
Now maybe I'm extremely rare, but if I'm not, what happens? (players like me don't have to be common, even 1 out of 20 would have an impact) Lots of survivors get unsatisfying end games and kill rates overall drop. The change in design (potentially, but I think likely) has a rather profound effect on the game (compare to survivor abandon with four downs, if that didn't exist I doubt it would make any meaningful impact on the kill rate data).
Instead of letting survivors instantly abandon they could add a 10-20 second delay so if someone has Unbreakable or something else they can make a play before the rest of the team becomes bots. A very simple solution.Simple yes, but is it a solution?
We now have three scenarios where this comes up
1: All the survivors are downed, no one has a perk that would make a difference, thus everyone has to wait 10 to 20 seconds for no reason. By itself no issue in a single game, but incredibly annoying when dozens/hundreds/thousands of games are taken into account.
2: A survivor does have a perk that allows them to get back up/off the hook. We now have two situations:
A: they get other survivors up and the game becomes competitive. This is the situation where obviously we don't want survivors to abandon.
B: the survivor gets back up, but is downed by the killer with no realistic chance of actually advancing the game. I'd say this just draws out the game in an unnecessary manner.
I'd also add the same argument
If the killer wants to keep contesting the match they don't have to resign.applies here - survivors don't have to abandon if they don't want to (and now can see each others perks). So if someone has unbreakable (or related perk) and a chance to get back up, the survivors can stay in. Except that isn't what happens, people just take the abandon, which is exactly what would happen on the killer side.3: Survivors do have a perk that allows them to get back up, but is crawling/waiting for the right time to trigger it, but the abandon option triggers before that. The simple solution thus still leaves the 'problem' in some instances (frequency depending on timer).
I believe situation 2A to be extremely rare that the survivors are able to meaningfully to advance the game after everyone is dead/down/hooked, thus making a 10 to 20 second timer just wasteful in the vast majority of instances.
and/or the survivors are just sitting in the exit gateThis is another example of just coding issues. If you make it so the killer can leave when the survivors are in the exit gate trolling, then trolls just stand slightly outside the exit gate to troll. It's a time waster that doesn't actually bring a solution to the problem.
They actually can't. Plot Twist doesn't trigger the abandon option.
Yes, it is over, unless the killer wants to try to secure more kills or and they are free to do that if they want.
I play both sides about equally and honestly I really don’t care if the killer gets this end game abandon option or not. But this is about fairness and addressing hypocrisy with the current abandon system. Survivor players are given way more freedom to duck out of a match for free than killer players are. I can understand why so many people here who only play one side are against this because they don’t understand/don’t care about wasting the other side’s time. I think most people who play both sides and are fair-minded about this understand that the only reason to demand killer stay in the match when the gates are open (of course, assuming a bot can take over) is to hold on to this same unnecessary BMing ritual at the exit gates.
In that case, maybe Survivors should be able to abandon in the end game after all the gens are finished, too. I play Survivor, yes, but I also get annoyed when teammates just wanna teabag at the exit gate. I only stick around to see if I need to take a protection hit for them. You won't see me tea-bagging.
There's still no hypocrisy here. Killers have agency in endgame, even though they've lost. Survivors do not have agency when they're all slugged. That is the massive difference that everyone keeps ignoring for some reason.
They aren't ignoring it they just know it undermines their position.
I wonder how they would respond to being able to abandon if getting proxy-camped to stage two, or being hit on hook, or being left to die.
Yes there is automated killer coded into the game because its used in 2v8 when another killer DC.
I get where you’re coming from, but the easiest solution is to just push them out. They’re quick to leave once you start getting hits on them.
Personally? I use the time to traverse the map and break pallets/walls or even close hatch for extra BP’s. In reality, you’ve queued for a match, waited in a lobby, then played a match that typically lasts 10-15 minutes, is an extra 30s really the end of the world?
In your killer abandon scenario I think most abandons would happen on the chase out the door rather than get hook > abandon. I like to keep my suggestions as simple but if they could code in something for the hooked scenario that'd be great. However, with basekit BT lasting for 66m I don't think this save scenario is gameplay worth saving either for most killers. No matter the case, there isn't much point in speculating without actually trying it out.
I should not have said solution, as there are no perfect solutions in DbD. Arguably I can't even say improvement, because we're wasting 10-20 seconds of the survivors time most of the time for no enjoyment. It would be a compromise.
The reason I suggested it is because it is simple and easy to implement, which unfortunately kind of necessary for BHVR. They tend not to implement sophisticated solutions and when they do they don't turn out right. How the abandon system negates MMR changes is a perfect example of that.
I don't think the 10-20 second delay is worthless MMR-wise either. That time would allow the killer to sacrifice 1-2 survivors before they can abandon which would preserve the MMR changes that should be happening in this scenario but don't because the abandon system is poorly implemented.
Also I don't care wasting about 10-20 seconds of survivor time in games when they get stomped because killers don't have a similar option when they get stomped. 10-20 seconds is still way better than what we had before abandons where Slugging Sally could waste 4 minutes of those survivors' time.
What are you on about with that exit gate coding crap. I never suggesting anything like that. It's all still part of the 60s after a gate opens>resign option I've been pushing. You're just pointing out another scenario I have already thought of which is why I suggest a simple 60s rule. Also the 60s rule would have a knock-on effect: once survivors know it's in place they'd leave more often on their own instead of waiting just to bm.
The game being 'already lost' for survivors is 4 survivors being dead on the floor completely unable to do anything to perform a comeback. As killer I got a 4k from 1 guy being hooked in EGC. This is proof that the just getting to end game does not = the game is already lost for killer. Therefore it makes 0 sense for the killer to abandon since there are still ways to win the match. I think the give up mentality is far too prevalent in DbD.
I said multiple times that the killer can still stay in the match if they want to try to secure more kills
In your killer abandon scenario I think most abandons would happen on the chase out the door rather than get hook > abandon.Maybe you are correct, but the important part is the 'I think'.
What if your guess about how other humans will behave is wrong? If killers in this situation abandon when the game is competitive, you're having an impact*. It's not going to destroy the game or anything like that, but there will be instances (I think potentially pretty common) of games that a kill(s) could have still been secured that the killer abandoned, both affecting player experience and overall stats.
This happens on the survivor side as well, except circumstances outweigh what the players will do. The situation they are in is so dire that the amount of times they can successfully progress the games are extraordinarily rare, so how players will behave is not critical to the impact because it is such a rare exception.
*The impact would likely also be felt more or less in different regions - some regions seem to love 99ing the gates, others seem to always open them right away. A person in a region where gates are always 99ed would think this is a rare occurrence, but in some regions this would probably come up regularly.
I don't think the 10-20 second delay is worthless MMR-wise either. That time would allow the killer to sacrifice 1-2 survivors before they can abandon which would preserve the MMR changes that should be happening in this scenario but don't because the abandon system is poorly implemented.We've received contradictory information from mods, but I think the most senior person we've heard from has said that abandoning doesn't circumvent MMR loss. Even if it did, there's a much simpler way to address that.
Also I don't care wasting about 10-20 seconds of survivor time in games when they get stomped because killers don't have a similar option when they get stomped.When did we start talking about getting stomped? You can get to the loss condition and stuck there regardless of how competitive the match was.
You're also allowed to care or not care about anything you want, but its not really fruitful when BHVR has to care about all the players.
10-20 seconds is still way better than what we had before abandons where Slugging Sally could waste 4 minutes of those survivors' time.Old DH (unlimited usage) was better than old, old DH (distance with invincibility), but that doesn't mean people didn't have a right to complain about old DH just because it wasn't as bad as it used to be.
What are you on about with that exit gate coding crap. I never suggesting anything like that. It's all still part of the 60s after a gate opens>resign option I've been pushing.I'm not sure how it links to your overall idea, but ultimately being in the exit gates is easily circumvented - if the survivors aren't trolls, they are just going to leave, if they are trolls they are just going to stand slightly outside. Whether that happens with a 60s timer or not I don't think changes anything.
This is pretty much one of the biggest double standards in the game. There's no reason to not let killers abandon in the end game. The whole point of the system was to save wasted time and being forced to push survivors out because they want to waste your time perfectly justifies letting killers abandon here.
Either the system allows both sides to jump out of matches that will waste their time or neither side gets to abandon.
I countered your 'I think' with my 'I think' so no issue there. We're just speculating on what killers would do in the scenario if they could abandon. Could have =/= would have when comes to securing kills, it comes down to the motivation of the killer players. For example I myself could secure many more kills than I actually get because I don't bother camping hooks in Endgame. The killers that would secure those Endgame kills wouldn't abandon and those that don't care that they could secure a kill could abandon. I don't see an issue here.
These stomp questions are silly. If all 4 survivors are slugged they often got stomped or feel like they got stomped, and they get to instantly abandon in that scenario. If all the generators are done and the killer got 0-2 hooks, they got stomped and should have an abandon option as well, but arguably not instant.
Do you have anything to say about killers gaining the option to abandon 60s after a gate is opened? I don't care to keep talking about the rest of this crap.
That actually was an 'already lost' scenario for you. The 3 survivors could have left and you would have lost.
They decided to hard throw trying for a 4 out.
You had someone on the hook and the will to keep playing. Would you have abandoned in that game if you had the option?
If not, then are you actually against the option existing?
I was doing my adept. So no…I wouldn't have abandoned. And thankfully I didn't - loser mentality would have caused me to not get my challenge.
Also I had 1 teabagging and caught her off guard with my spear, she was no-where near an exit gate, 3rd vaulted into me trying to lithe away and 4th died trying to open an exit gate next the the hook. I wouldn't say that was an already lost game. Again, loser mentality is far too prevalent in DbD.
I am against the option existing for killer, because abandon option only exists as a means to stop people being bled out for 4 minutes straight or to skip being hooked for your inevitable death after being 4man slugged… and then once everyone abandons, the killer can also abandon. so it's fair. If you want out that much just dc i.e. rage quit like a man! It's like you just want the killer to be able to dc for free as an easy way out… Just take the loss. Force them out. Break your pallets for extra BP. Catch them off guard and get your wincon… or rage quit like everyone else when they are upset that they lost.
games where survivors don't bm until the last possible second are very much the exception, theres a reason survivor players are against this and it isnt anything to do with the health of the game
Your recap of the game doesn't change what I said. They threw and you took advantage, as you should. Congratulations on your adept.
You sound like all the other survivor mains wanting to be able to teabag the killer as the killer has to push them out. I am fine with taking my losses, I'm just tired of wasting 2 minutes AFKing staring at the gate switch waiting for them to leave, and one of them always stays until the last second.
You push them out… no time wasted.