Slugging and tunneling
Are we ever going to get anti slug and anti tunneling? They are still a big issue and its odd that those proposed changes were scrapped all together instead of being tweaked.
Are we ever going to get anti slug and anti tunneling? They are still a big issue and its odd that those proposed changes were scrapped all together instead of being tweaked.
Read THIS post.
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Nothing you said was the "objective truth". Just yet more bias nonsense and its ridiculous you'd frame it as such just to support your obviously bias nonsense argument for "your side".
You're entitled to your opinion—even if it's wrong.
It's not wrong, but feel free to keep thinking that. False statments on the other hand are. I don't think you even know what being objective even means when you already admitted bias lol
The hostility in this community is just getting worse and worse. Maybe it is time to shut down the forums for good... 😢
Maybe so, but this is still the "tamer" forum out there.
I have seen examples of much worse on places like Reddit, X or Youtube.
I play both, though more killer, even when my grades suggest otherwise.
I'd like to add one thing. As a killer I be bullied by some teens with flashlights and teabagged and so on, but I can still do most of the things I do and try to hit things etc.
As a survivor, hard tunneling, facecamping and slugging tactics, keep you from playing. And the game is structured in a way you are not rewarded. (For reference: Tunneling in this case means deliberately targeting the same survivor after hooking them until they are out.) You are out early, so you get less BP, less pips etc.
Though leading the killer on a chase for 30 minutes would also only get you max in chase, but still.
Things like that don't really seem happen to killers or do they? We have to be fair here. The things the OP laments about impact survivor gameplay. Gen rushing is annoying and might feel unfair, but it doesn't trap you in being unable to play.
Way to ignore the second half of that message that calls for better tutorials. How convenient that you only learned how to read messages partially.
You should've continued to mind your own business and not created a word salad.
You're the furthest thing from objective.
Not gonna lie: Some of y'all are so out of touch with what the game is actually like that this conversation is clearly pointless. Have fun continuing to tell yourselves lies.
Hey don't steal my line like that.
What does that even mean
But you're supposed to be an active hoper
Achieving a better future means knowing when some people are hopeless.
I've been watching this thread for a bit, so consider this a reply to pretty much everything you've said.
I found that you started out quite strong. Asking for better tutorials is always a welcome sight. The titanic amount of information new players are expected to intake, digest and be efficient at is, quite frankly, abhorrent. Anything that makes that better is a W in my book.
However, you then start to get into ad hominem attacks when people disagree with some of your points. This is where your argument, and tone, falls to pieces.
This comment merely highlights it. Yes, if you are smurfing or playing against a brand-new Killer, you can probably avoid getting hit. However, no one serious about the game genuinely expects to go hitless. It entirely unhelpful. Modern DBD simply isn't set-up that way anymore.
You can look at it as handicaps, or you can look at it as preventing bad actors from abusing the system, which is how I choose to look at it. Killer has been given just as many of these as Survivors, possibly more considering how the game started.
Ultimately, to your original point, tunneling is too much bang for your buck, so to speak. You can tunnel and win the vast majority of your games, not because you won't have opponents of equal skill, but because the amount of skill required to successfully execute a tunnel is vastly less than the amount of skill required to prevent (or more likely) win in spite of it. You need not only personal skill, but skill as a team, and that is quite the ask.
Yes, a better tutorial could help that. But the skill imbalance is not fair either, and should be addressed. I have long been in favor of rebalancing the 4v1 and the 3v1. I think that would be the way to go.
As a final point, Killers do not need to tunnel in most games. But it would be like if Survivors spawned with original BNP's and were told, "You can use this, if you want an easy game, but you probably shouldn't!" Of course, people are going to give themselves easier games. It's human nature.
That's why it's up to the Devs to fix things like this skill imbalance, while maintaining Killer agency.
This is a forum. It you want a one-on-one conversation, DM someone. Otherwise, everyone is free to speak. Don't respond if you have nothing to say, but your level of excessive hostility is not constructive in any way.
This accusation of supposed hostility, of course, ignores all of the other individuals who have gaslit or been inflammatory themselves.
your hitting a brick wall lol there is a group of about 4 or 5 them that are chummy and in a clique…a couple talk privately and even play SWF together. (forums version of bully squad). eventually they will push it too far and get themselves banned lol
Hopefully.
Either way, I have my account set for deletion since such people make this place too miserable to be around. Just clearing up lies they try to spread in the meantime.
Who is bro talking about?
You've got to admit; you did lean pretty heavily into the ad hominem attacks there.
I criticized people's stances, partially by calling out their biases and shallow responses. No, I don't have to admit anything.
You're getting hostility because it's what you're giving. In this thread you:
Defended a loud minority spamming their views to tilt the scales in their favor in regards to game balance, which is very unethical.
Called @Philscooper a liar for expressing an opinon.
Told @tjt85 that they're bad at the game because a killer used a very toxic, anti-soloq strategy, negated their feelings about the match and how it affected them, and then told them they weren't worth speaking to.
Also told @CrypticGirl they were ignorant, a liar for expressing an opinon, and dismissed them as well.
Dismissed @FerrousFacade as well.
Called @UnicornMedal a liar.
@SaltyNooty made a number of good points and all you did was dismiss them too.
No one in this thread is being as consistently nasty as you are. This might be the most outwardly rude responses to so many different people from one person that I've ever seen in my time here. What do you think you're accomplishing by calling everyone bad or a liar while refusing to acknowledge that many players use nasty methods to win and that it affects player morale? You expressed the view that killer is more stressful, which is an opinon and not a fact, and then went on to tell people their own opposing opinions are lies. If I find survivor more stressful than killer does that make you a liar in my eyes? No, it makes your opinon different.
Also, in regards to your question about what built-in comebacks killers have, here's a match of mine from yesterday:
I played like garbage, got one hook, and then slugged three people in end game and won. They deserved the win after how I played and the game's mechanics gave it to me for free.
Edit: I am also a liar for disagreeing.
Edit 2: I have also been dismissed.
No, I suppose you don't have to.
We all have biases, you and I included, I'm sure. What matters is that we are able to constructively (and civilly) reach a conclusion.
That is where the best ideas come from, generally.
"…many players use nasty methods to win."
I would go point by point and refute your lies, but this right here does my work for me by indicating how you villify Killers who play to win and are, thus, not a trustworthy commentator.
Literally just posted my own killer match, which I played as killer, because I play killer.
Adding my name to the everyone-who-disagrees-with-me-is-a-liar list.
True; however, a lot of people were using their biases to gaslight and be inflammatory.
You called slugging, a strategy, nasty.
Playing victim doesn't make you one.
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Even if they were, is it not more advantageous to appear magnanimous in the face of that adversity?
No. Better to be honest and risk sounding rude than mince words.
I assume you aren't arguing to change their minds, but to change the minds of those reading. To "speak the truth" as you see it, yes?
It would seem to me that it would be far more advantageous for your position to continue arguing politely instead of devolving into name-calling and such.
Still, it is of course, up to you. Perhaps you'd engage with me, instead?
How am I playing victim when I'm the one who did the slugging? The survivors were the victims. I'm telling you the game gave me something I didn't deserve by me crutching on perks and mechanics and ignoring skill.
Well, as I've said, my account is set for deletion. But, until that goes through, sure, when I'm on.
Of course.
Did you have a chance to read my generalized response to you earlier? I apologize for being a bit long-winded.
I'm saying you're playing victim by ironically saying you're a liar to me when you did unironically lie about slugging being a "nasty" strategy. Last message to you.
I read through it again now.
I don't think that tunneling is overpowered, not when so many base-kit second chances have been implemented to deal with any semblance of unfairness it may have ever had. Now, it comes down to, as you referenced, personal and team skill, which I don't think is unfair to rely on in a team game. Anecdotally, when I go down and get targeted repeatedly, it's because of how fast I went down and where I went down, like by the basement. And, when someone else is getting targeted repeatedly, it's something I try to counter with body-blocks and/or repair efficiency.
Soooo to the topic at hand….slugging and tunneling…. will we see any more anti tunnel or anti slugging? personally i dont think so 😂
I'm afraid it's not my last message to you.
I didn't say amoral (though I think you mean immoral. What you're saying is that it's amoral.) I said nasty in regards to slugging with Third Seal, because that's a method that particularly targets soloqers who can't communicate their locations and what's happening.
I said I was given a free win in my own match, which is true. Playing poorly the whole match and then suddenly winning in end game is not only unfair but only works for killers. Survivors who play poorly all matcn are dead before end game.
Of course, there's no hard evidence to suggest a definitive line of thinking either way, it ultimately comes down to opinion.
DBD is certainly a very different game than when I started. Many Killer second chances, or handicaps, were simply not present. It made the game very miserable at times, still though, there was just something about it that kept me coming back.
All that to say, second chances are not inherently a bad thing. I'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who thinks window-blockers or the removal of true infinites was a bad idea.
DBD is not quite a team game, but not quite a solo game either. The game is simultaneously balanced around solo play and team play. If tunneling occurs, against Solos or Duos or possibly Trios, the Survivors are at a massive disadvantage. A 3v1 is nigh unwinnable for Survivors, barring a massive misplay from the Killer.
I would not necessarily say that tunneling is overpowered, but more that the risk to reward ratio is very skewed. There is very little risk, and the reward is much too tempting to pass up for many players, despite the fact that it can ultimately make you a worse player. I would liken it to starting out playing Nurse, but only Nurse. You become extremely proficient, but when you do decide to swap to a different Killer, you find you know very little about how the game really plays out. You've been playing a fundamentally different game, and have subsequently, handicapped yourself from learning how the game normally plays out.
I view tunneling similarly. If you only tunnel, and you will win roughly 90% of your games by doing this, you will not be prepared when a team equipped to handle it comes along.
Hence, I think there should be more risk and a little less reward. It's good to have a little fear, gameplay-wise, but frustrating people by having them repeatedly play well, but ultimately die with no recourse or account for personal skill, is not a great design.
Nah bruh that was a wild accusation.
Who is bullying people? This needs to be talked about, I assume you've got proof of this happening?
Tunneling is only consistently exceptionally strong on S-tiers like The Nurse. Otherwise, like for Killers I regularly play such as Sadako, I'd argue that there's enough risk as it is since focusing on one Survivor can backfire due to both looping skills and teammates' repair proficiency, so much so that whom I'm tunneling is not even guaranteed to die(, nor should that be a guarantee.) If anything, an update that expands Killers' strategic options to make matches less repetitive and, thus, frustrating, should be tested, without any anti-anything.
I mention no names and no it does not need to be talked about. The mods will take action if action is required.
I would say tunneling is consistently strong on most Killers, perhaps except the bottom few.
Obviously, having a better power (anti-loop or mobility) will lend itself well to being a better tunneler. That's most of the Killers in the game now.
I will say this next part, and I promise I do not mean it arrogantly. I played a lot of Killer. I pushed about as far as I could possibly go, ending up in limited competitive matches, but ultimately, I lost interest.
So, I understand Sadako is not, hmmm shall we say, a strong anti-loop Killer? However, even still, I cannot recall feeling like I couldn't guarantee a death, if I so chose.
Theoretically, we did see that update. That was 6.1.0. We saw quite an increase in tunneling, despite many Survivor nerfs, Killer buffs and massive perk combos. Indeed, if there was a time where Killers did not need to tunnel, 6.1 would've been the time. CoB, Eruption, Overcharge and such dominated gen defense.
If we bring a carrot like that, which I am not opposed to, we do also need to make sure nobody can abuse other strategies whilst still reaping those benefits.
It felt like quite an accusation, surely if it's as bad as you say, we need to make that proof public.
Ultimately, I'm confused why you'd even bring it up if it does not need to be talked about.
Yet, when the PTB was live we were inundated by people saying that anti-tunnel would make low tier killers like Trapper and Sadako unplayable and that this is why the changes were unacceptable. I agree with your take on it being stronger on S-tiers but that's part of why I want it, nurse and blight need to be brought down and anti-tunnel is a great way to hurt the strongest killers more than the weakest. The rest of the systems needed changes but it was a good start.
The only way to expand their strategic options is to change what their current strongest strategy is. If you give killers something strong but leave tunneling as is all you will have done is make tunneling stronger. If you want slower gens/longer matches or regression buffed or some additional form of basekit regression it has to come with changes to tunneling or matches that involve tunneling will just become even more hopeless for survivors than they already often are.
The employment of a strategy does not need to be about a need; it can also be about a want based on appeal, curiosity, and/or experimentation.
Those aforementioned second-chances exist to prevent tunneling from being over-powered(, even if I disagree with their intention and existence.) Any new benefits should be developed alone to not produce undesirable effects elsewhere, not be a reason to further nerf other strategies.
i have said all i need to say on the matter. Talking about it further accomplishes nothing, like i said its up to the mods to take action if action is needed.
Perhaps not, but it is a common argument you hear. Maybe the most common.
Because, in the current state of the game, with faster healing that buys time for more repairs and recent pallet-density changes and current base-kit endurance and haste buffs, it is more of a stressful necessity that reduces Survivors' strength and ensures their second chances don't have to be dealt with on multiple people at once.
If the killers mains don't get 4k kills in every game, then we'll never see any real changes from this pathetic company.
We've seen the Kill Rates. They aren't perfect, but Killers appear to be holding steady.