is it me or is the 2v1 situation getting insufferable?

deckyr

lately, the absolute worst games of dbd have been games that end up in a 2v1 situation.

after two survivors are dead, and you have two survivors alive with a killer. all three people in this situation want to win, so what is the best option for each?

for the survivors, it's to wait for your teammate to die. for the killer, it's to keep patrolling the generators to make sure they don't get done.

the objective of the survivor team has changed, and now the killer has no information and almost no relevance to the actual game at hand any more. the killer has nothing to do and no information to act upon unless they either have a perk to help them or one of the survivors gives up.

and then, when one of the survivors actually is downed… well, if you kill that survivor, the hatch will spawn and the last one might get out. so for as long as there is one survivor on the floor, the remaining survivor and the killer are playing the same game: hide and seek. except there's someone on the floor, having been taken hostage.

a lot of developer time was spent dealing with things like camping and tunnelling. but when will the developers start considering the problem of the 2v1 situation? when the priorities of the survivors shift, and the game becomes extremely boring?

what would you do to address this, if you were a developer?

i think i would make it so that, in the 2v1 situation, the survivors start to build up idle crows any time they aren't on a generator, and putting one of the survivors into the dying state immediately triggers the mori animation on that survivor.

i would then adjust all achievements and archives that require 4 kills to only require 3 kills.

no more hide and seek, please. no more slugging for the 4k, please. i want to play the video game and i cannot stand it when i am taken hostage by survivors that don't want to show themselves, or by killers that don't want to give up their 4k.

Mudkip_AJM

You... do realize none of this is "being taken hostage", right? Not even slugging.

This is a "Stalemate". There are no hostages, because either side can easily concede ground, and break the stalemate. If you're miserable because 2v1 sucks, it's because you're MAKING it suck. Suck it up and do a Gen, or sit in a corner of the map for a minute or so.

You might die. You might lose a Gen. But Stealth is part of the game, and it doesn't mean you're being held hostage when you refuse to break a stalemate. See also; Tombstone Locker Standoffs.

Neaxolotl

@Rovend said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778045#Comment_3778045

Then, as i said before, if the outcome wont change and a 2k will lead to a 4k in the majority of games, not only will be a spike in people giving up but also the devs will be forced to balance the game around killers achieving a 2k 60% of times. This can only be done by nerfing killers heavily.

And for the record, Hatch escapes do count as escape in the kill rates.

or developers can simply stop counting hatch escapes, or increase target KR, they can do whatever to "fix" that problem

There is no such things as "forced balancing"

NerfDHalready

@Rovend said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777993#Comment_3777993

In the common 2 surv +1gen scenario, survivors play for hatch normally as they cannot realistically repair the remaining gens. The chances of escaping are slim of course, as the killer can still slug the third surv for 4minutes to keep searching for the last one. Still the chance is still there that maybe one can get hatch.

Removing Hatch and giving aura read on top of that is just outright gifting a 4k to the killer every time they manage to kill two surv early, with no chance of comeback.

"free 4k"? i thought hatch escapes counted as a win for the killer, why would you see removing hatch as gifting a free win?

Rovend

@NerfDHalready said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778026#Comment_3778026

"free 4k"? i thought hatch escapes counted as a win for the killer, why would you see removing hatch as gifting a free win?

Hatch escapes count as escape for the balancing data, although for MMR it does not count as a win or lose.

'why would you see removing hatch as gifting a free win?'

Because in the Majority of games were the last survivor gets a Hatch escape, those are usually the games when it is extremely difficult to repair the final gens, So removing Hatch and adding aura read to find the remaining survs would be literally gifting a 4k to the killer for reaching the '2 survs, +1gen' scenario. So you would really only need to kill 2 survivors fast for the final 2 to be locked in an unwinnable scenario.

How many matches did you see the last 2 survivors repair 2 gens or more and escape by the gates without the killer trolling or letting them go on purpose? In my 2000 hs of dbd i could count 2 or 3 only.

Sarrif

@Efrost said:

They had a solution to this ages ago, but removed it because it removed agency from the killer. When Hatches spawned based of players remaining count and gen count. It encouraged players to continue to do them. As there was a possibility of escape. But now if you have multiple gens and its down to 2. There is no reason to touch them. Behavior has in their constant need to make sure killers have agency. Have severely hampered survivor agency. This can be viewed in alot of killers losing the risk in their power kits. EX, Huntress getting a ton of hatchets, Billy being having almost no down time on chainsaw with no overhead and way faster handling, Bubba had his stun from hitting a wall reduced and collision reduced, Doctor is getting cds on all his abilitys especially if they miss, the list goes on and on. Then add in the reworks for maps are getting crazy, Haddenfield is absolute garbage, basically every vault is unsafe because there is an opening somewhere right near it. And they keep shrinking the maps to be smaller and smaller, Again haddenfield is small enough you can stand in the middle and see both walls from opposite sides, making things like watching both doors form a single spot, (Which again is a 0 survivor agency situation) But people just shug and are like oh well its bad rng. Which is incorrect. Its bad design that, that can happen. They have stated both side should feel like they have agency but survivors can easily be placed in multiple situations of no agency.

If they simply add something to force survivors to be revealed then again you are stripping survivors of their only option at that point of the game, the hatch. If you remove the hatch. Then you will see survivors give up even more then they do now because once a game looks like it isnt survivable. People arn't going to stick around which in turn makes it worse for any remaining survivor. They could look at having something like sole survivor add 25% gen repair per player killed. This would allow survivors to gain benifits to try to do stuff even with 2 because by then the gen will only take 45. Instead of 90 seconds as the issue is even if you had 6 gens left a killer can check them all well before you can finish one by yourself. But even that isnt great because it requires a perk slot instead of an in game system that could give survivors a chance of escape. If you want survivors on the gens you need some sort of system that either speeds up their ability to complete them, or something that will distract the killer so that they can finish the full 90 seconds. But without anything like that in place. There just simply isnt a reason to get on a gen, when you are behind and its down to 2.

And if you unfortunately don't like that. Well Killers tunnel and camp and claim its perfectly fine strats, so I would argue the same about hide and waiting out hatch. Both strats deny players the ability to play the game to try to gain an edge at winning it.

You really just summed up all the major issues with recent dbd in one comment. Well done.

NerfDHalready

@Rovend said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778210#Comment_3778210

Hatch escapes count as escape for the balancing data, although for MMR it does not count as a win or lose.

'why would you see removing hatch as gifting a free win?'

Because in the Majority of games were the last survivor gets a Hatch escape, those are usually the games when it is extremely difficult to repair the final gens, So removing Hatch and adding aura read to find the remaining survs would be literally gifting a 4k to the killer for reaching the '2 survs, +1gen' scenario. So you would really only need to kill 2 survivors fast for the final 2 to be locked in an unwinnable scenario.

How many matches did you see the last 2 survivors repair 2 gens or more and escape by the gates without the killer trolling or letting them go on purpose? In my 2000 hs of dbd i could count 2 or 3 only.

i'm sorry but calling a 4k in this situation "free" when the other option is a hatch escape is so funny. like if the situation is hopeless for survivors at any point, how is the win free for the killer?

Depressed_Millenial

@deckyr said:

lately, the absolute worst games of dbd have been games that end up in a 2v1 situation.

after two survivors are dead, and you have two survivors alive with a killer. all three people in this situation want to win, so what is the best option for each?

for the survivors, it's to wait for your teammate to die. for the killer, it's to keep patrolling the generators to make sure they don't get done.

the objective of the survivor team has changed, and now the killer has no information and almost no relevance to the actual game at hand any more. the killer has nothing to do and no information to act upon unless they either have a perk to help them or one of the survivors gives up.

and then, when one of the survivors actually is downed… well, if you kill that survivor, the hatch will spawn and the last one might get out. so for as long as there is one survivor on the floor, the remaining survivor and the killer are playing the same game: hide and seek. except there's someone on the floor, having been taken hostage.

a lot of developer time was spent dealing with things like camping and tunnelling. but when will the developers start considering the problem of the 2v1 situation? when the priorities of the survivors shift, and the game becomes extremely boring?

what would you do to address this, if you were a developer?

i think i would make it so that, in the 2v1 situation, the survivors start to build up idle crows any time they aren't on a generator, and putting one of the survivors into the dying state immediately triggers the mori animation on that survivor.

i would then adjust all achievements and archives that require 4 kills to only require 3 kills.

no more hide and seek, please. no more slugging for the 4k, please. i want to play the video game and i cannot stand it when i am taken hostage by survivors that don't want to show themselves, or by killers that don't want to give up their 4k.

Literally only one solution to this which has been present in other asyms. As survivors die, remaining survivors get gen speed boosts. 50% gen speed boost when 2 are dead. Would make completing remaining gens less daunting.

Only Reason last 2 give up and rat is because there's not enough resources left at that point to complete a full gen solo (90s) and the other person in chase last the entire time and then make it to a door after other has opened, so whoever is found first is essentially dead regardless.

This also then can end up with whoever is found first being used to nark on the other hiding survivor and create a teaming scenario (against ToS) or being slugged on the ground / held hostage till other is found.

Rovend

@NerfDHalready said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778442#Comment_3778442

i'm sorry but calling a 4k in this situation "free" when the other option is a hatch escape is so funny. like if the situation is hopeless for survivors at any point, how is the win free for the killer?

Look, in this scenario (2survs - +1gen), who has the upper hand?

The killer, right?

The survivors are in great disadvantage and is really hard for them to repare the last gens so they usually hide to try to get the chance of a hatch escape.

My original response was to another user that claimed that it would be better to, in this situation where the killer has the upper hand, to remove the hatch and give aura read to the killer.

That leads to survivors being stuck with a situation where they cant repair the remaining gens and escape, cant escape by hatch and cant hide.

We can change the wording to not say 'gift' in exchange of something like 'severe buff to the already winning side to remove any option of counteraction of the losing side forcing them to accept the loss'.

Ayodam

@Rovend said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778446#Comment_3778446

Look, in this scenario (2survs - +1gen), who has the upper hand?

The killer, right?

The survivors are in great disadvantage and is really hard for them to repare the last gens so they usually hide to try to get the chance of a hatch escape.

My original response was to another user that claimed that it would be better to, in this situation where the killer has the upper hand, to remove the hatch and give aura read to the killer.

That leads to survivors being stuck with a situation where they cant repair the remaining gens and escape, cant escape by hatch and cant hide.

We can change the wording to not say 'gift' in exchange of something like 'severe buff to the already winning side to remove any option of counteraction of the losing side forcing them to accept the loss'.

Don’t waste your time trying to get through to these people. The same forum members clamoring for hatch to go away and this 2 remaining survivor reveal mechanic are the same people who would complain about killer queue times and flood the forums with “WhY dOeS nO oNe pLaY sUrViVoR” topics. Absolutely clueless.

Jim_Tonic

@deckyr said:

lately, the absolute worst games of dbd have been games that end up in a 2v1 situation.

after two survivors are dead, and you have two survivors alive with a killer. all three people in this situation want to win, so what is the best option for each?

for the survivors, it's to wait for your teammate to die. for the killer, it's to keep patrolling the generators to make sure they don't get done.

the objective of the survivor team has changed, and now the killer has no information and almost no relevance to the actual game at hand any more. the killer has nothing to do and no information to act upon unless they either have a perk to help them or one of the survivors gives up.

and then, when one of the survivors actually is downed… well, if you kill that survivor, the hatch will spawn and the last one might get out. so for as long as there is one survivor on the floor, the remaining survivor and the killer are playing the same game: hide and seek. except there's someone on the floor, having been taken hostage.

a lot of developer time was spent dealing with things like camping and tunnelling. but when will the developers start considering the problem of the 2v1 situation? when the priorities of the survivors shift, and the game becomes extremely boring?

what would you do to address this, if you were a developer?

i think i would make it so that, in the 2v1 situation, the survivors start to build up idle crows any time they aren't on a generator, and putting one of the survivors into the dying state immediately triggers the mori animation on that survivor.

i would then adjust all achievements and archives that require 4 kills to only require 3 kills.

no more hide and seek, please. no more slugging for the 4k, please. i want to play the video game and i cannot stand it when i am taken hostage by survivors that don't want to show themselves, or by killers that don't want to give up their 4k.

I agree with litteraly everything you are proposing 👍️ its so nice when people have suggestions that benefit both sides and not only one side

Jim_Tonic

@Rovend said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778031#Comment_3778031

Would you rather have survivors give up and throwing themselves to the killer whenever they have a rough start? Because that's probably what would happen if you remove any hope of somehow escaping, even by hatch and buff the killer when it's already winning.

that is alredy happening alot whenever i dare to get the fist down before 2 gens are completed. Which is 90% of my games. People just expect to be handheld all the time and want to win every 1v1 when in reality its not meant for a survivor to "win" a 1v1 most of the time. You are supposed to waste the killers time long enough to pressure them.

But so many people give up, adding pressure to their teammates rather to the killer and bloating killers MMR aswell.

sinkra

If there are a few gens left and 2 survivors left there's no point touching the gens because it's futile and will result in losing. Even 3 survivors with 3-4 gens left is hopeless most of the time. It's a flaw in game design and probably a big reason why most survivors are choosing to play 2v8 instead.

NerfDHalready

@Rovend said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778446#Comment_3778446

Look, in this scenario (2survs - +1gen), who has the upper hand?

The killer, right?

The survivors are in great disadvantage and is really hard for them to repare the last gens so they usually hide to try to get the chance of a hatch escape.

My original response was to another user that claimed that it would be better to, in this situation where the killer has the upper hand, to remove the hatch and give aura read to the killer.

That leads to survivors being stuck with a situation where they cant repair the remaining gens and escape, cant escape by hatch and cant hide.

We can change the wording to not say 'gift' in exchange of something like 'severe buff to the already winning side to remove any option of counteraction of the losing side forcing them to accept the loss'.

oh i see then, yes aura read/afk crows shouldn't happen very quickly so survivors can do gens while heavy stealthing because that would be needed.

@Ayodam said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778453#Comment_3778453

Don’t waste your time trying to get through to these people. The same forum members clamoring for hatch to go away and this 2 remaining survivor reveal mechanic are the same people who would complain about killer queue times and flood the forums with “WhY dOeS nO oNe pLaY sUrViVoR” topics. Absolutely clueless.

queue times are okay without 2v8 so there is no such problems and you should stop making up scenarios in your head. also idk if that's a self report but i couldn't care less if hide for hatch rats don't queue as survivor, they don't add anything of value to the gameplay anyway.

MrMori

Escpes should give 2000 points and every gen completed should give 1200 points for every living survivor in Survival. Also hatch shouldn't give the 2500 objective point bonus. Why do you get 9500 total points just for waiting for hatch, while the other survivor that did a gen gets 500 objective points and then subsequently killed?

Why can you do 5 gens, die before exit gates open, and get like 800 survival points? That's dumb.

The 2v1 and 1v1 situation could use some serious improvements.

Ayodam

@NerfDHalready said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778453#Comment_3778453

oh i see then, yes aura read/afk crows shouldn't happen very quickly so survivors can do gens while heavy stealthing because that would be needed.

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778523#Comment_3778523

queue times are okay without 2v8 so there is no such problems and you should stop making up scenarios in your head. also idk if that's a self report but i couldn't care less if hide for hatch rats don't queue as survivor, they don't add anything of value to the gameplay anyway.

No they aren’t. They’re still long as hell. I waited 15 minutes for a game as killer last night. Stop the cap.

NerfDHalready

@Ayodam said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778584#Comment_3778584

No they aren’t. They’re still long as hell. I waited 15 minutes for a game as killer last night. Stop the cap.

"without 8v2". not outside of 8v2. they will go back to normal short queues after the mode ends.

deckyr

i don't understand why half of this thread is talking about "removing the hatch". who even suggested that? is the "removing the hatch" suggestion in the thread with us now?

what i suggested was, when there are two alive survivors remaining and one survivor goes down, the survivor that got downed gets instantly mori'd, preventing slugging for the 4k and instantly moving the game toward hatch phase.

my suggestion is for more hatch, in fact. not less hatch. it's to make killers unable to slug for the 4k, and the crows are to make survivors unable to hide and wait for the other to die, so that everyone gets to move on to the next game of dbd as soon as possible.

because you know what? the match in this case is over. if it's not over, then you can fix the gen and escape normally. but if it's over? then let it be over.

and enough with the "killer main wants to destroy our pure and just survivor gameplay" stuff. i'm a bp incentive main and both sides are equally capable of making the game miserable. don't make the forums miserable too.