Save the Best for Last needs to be *adjusted*
Despite STBFL being known as a healthy perk, there's actually many significant problems with it. If you are going to criticize any of these points, then please be constructive instead of just saying some "it's a healthy perk entitled survivor source trust me bro" nonsense.
- Works well on a variety of killers
Despite people arguing that STBFL is "only good on the weaker killers" ...this just isn't the case. STBFL is good on spirit, hag, wesker, demogorgon, deathslinger, nemesis, etc. None of whom are in the bottom tier of killers.
- Even if it was only good on the weaker killers...
That is a band aid and serves as a terrible way to balance weaker killers without actually addressing their design flaws and avoids the problem. Perks should never be balanced in a way that's like "oh it's fine because this killer sucks without it" or "it's the only thing making this killer playable." If it's the only thing making some killers viable, then perhaps those killers need to be made more viable at base instead of being forced to run a perk to do so.
- Killers with special attack flexibility deny the obsession of the intended counterplay
This problem is obviously much more niche than the entirety of killers that can use STBFL, but it is still an issue nonetheless and one that has an obvious solution. Killers like demogorgon, deathslinger, pig, trapper, wesker, and nemesis can completely ignore the counterplay that the survivor team is supposed to have by design. I honestly believe this is an oversight, as many of these killers didn't exist the last time the perk was updated
- Completely stomps solo players
This perk against solos is genuinely gross, it's completely unrealistic to expect the randomly chosen obsession to know what they need to do to counter the perk, and that's only if they even realize it's being used in the first place. This perk should notify the obsession in some way.
- Makes camping and tunneling extremely free
Despite what some people will say...no, getting to 8 stacks is not that difficult at all, especially since it becomes easier to get stacks the more you get, and you don't even need the absolute maximum to for it to still be very effective. I think it's very obvious how this perk makes camping and tunneling so free, even if the obsession takes hits, you only lose a maximum of four tokens, which is still very effective especially since it immediately goes up to 5 when you hit someone who's, say, going for the unhook. Camping with enough stacks of STBFL pretty much guarantees a free kill with zero counterplay, something which absolutely not exist so long as free escapes aren't meant to exist.
I am not advocating for a flat nerf to this perk per se, since it's generally balanced under the circumstances it was somewhat designed for (used to help an m1 killer in chases while having counterplay when against competent survivors who know about it), but these problems with it are very significant and should be addressed somehow, perhaps with a full rework of the perk. I have a suggestion for a rework that probably isn't perfect, but should make it more reasonable and consistent for both sides.
- Cooldown on successful basic attacks is not reduced until reaching a max of x (probably around 4) tokens
- Upon reaching x tokens, cooldown on successful basic attacks is reduced by y% (probably around 50)
- All tokens are immediately lost when the obsession loses a health state from a basic or special attack
- The obsession is notified when x tokens are reached
- Maybe tokens cannot be lost until x tokens are reached?
This would hopefully serve to make STBFL are more realistic pick on a wider variety of killers, while also making it much more reasonable to counter when necessary. I feel as though the buff would serve to make up for the nerf, and overall I think would make the perk more interesting and fast paced. I'm not saying this idea is definitely a perfect stbfl rework, it's just something that popped into my head, if it would be bad in practice I wouldn't be shocked or anything.
Let me know what u think of these points, and please, be constructive dammit!
Edit 1: Let me make clear, I don't think this perk is "OP," just problematic. I also don't think it's problematic at the highest levels of play, but for everything below that it definitely is, and comp level dbd shouldn't be the only skill levels considered.
Comments
that's why i put bad in quotations
aww. but the taste of human flesh is so delicious 🤤🥺
oh well then sorry, i misunderstood
it's cool.
my original comment likely got lost in the earlier back and forth. also i tend to be quirky with how i type things.
here's what i said.
at the start i state it's meant to be niche. meaning i believe it is useful in the right situations. in some situations that could even be very useful.
i put bad in quotations to signify that if someone were to state a reason for it to be bad - not that I think that it is - a lot of the issue comes from the obsession mechanic. after all the OP thinks it's bad or needs an adjustment otherwise this post wouldn't exist. just playing devils advocate at this point with the idea of it being bad.
sometimes i feel like devils advocate is underutilized in debates and discussion. so i tend to use it as it is the argumentation equivalent to putting yourself in someone's shoes.
going with the mindset of "if it were bad and we were to change it" i stated that simple value adjustments wouldn't fix the overall "issue" that one might have with it - the downside of losing tokens, the token system, and the obsession mechanic. which again i reiterated that it's only an issue if one thinks it's an issue to distance my supposition from the argument stance that it is indeed an issue.
at the end i clarify that my own views are the perk is fine as is.
----
hopefully that explains my thoughts and comment.
The reason I think stbfl needs adjustments is because it's problematic in a few ways, which is what I mean by bad as opposed to it being weak. I'm not sure if you also meant that but I'm guessing you meant bad as in weak which wasn't what I meant
i meant bad as in bad. as in not good. the literal meaning.
ok well my point in the original post was that it was just problematic
Why are we attacking a perk that literally starts the game doing absolutely nothing and you have to earn with every single hit, while at the same time punishing you for using it on 25% of the enemy team?
read the post and find out!
Way to explain your stance.
Again.
This is just getting kinda depressing.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I genuinely think STBFL is a trash perk for the most part, with Deathslinger being the only killer I actually like using it on.
unpopular opinion indeed, but i will respect it
it started to be a problem after the last mid-chapter update on last year, as the killers got a StBFL mini base-kit cutting 10% of the animation after hitting a survivor (3 for 2.7 seconds), it's basically 2 free stacks, not counting the sprint cut in 10% of the survivors (2 to 1.8s), and others like the base-kit mini BS (brutal strength), etc
Returning to the subject, I believe that StBfL starts to be problematic with 3 tokens, when the perk would only start to be reasonable with 5, and finally, there was never a nerf in the perk to compensate for the buffs in the killers' base-kit, and I believe that yes, the perk must be touched to reduce it's power in the amount of stacks or reverse the 10% cut from the cd of the hit in killers and sprint of the survivors, is the reason for the explosion of use on this perk
That's definitely interesting to think about, considering stbfl is primarily good on m1 killers and the update buffed them in ways even beyond just the base 2 stacks. I don't have a memory good enough to say if the problems I mentioned existed much before the update, but I would assume that it used to be at least slightly less problematic, albeit probably more bandaidy
seriously... what are you talking about? my stance is quite literally explained in the post?
If someone asks for an explanation on what you're talking about, "Just read what I posted again" is not an appropriate answer.
First of all, thanks so much for being so polite! It's very nice to know that putting effort into making a thought out post wasn't for no reason :). I actually agree with most of your points, but something is still off to me about being able to use special attacks to avoid token loss. I absolutely agree that incentivizing chase is a good thing, and that it is very boring when the killer just ignores the obsession all game. However, considering that it's kinda the whole theme of the perk I still find it a bit of an odd inconsistency. Does it matter if a small handful of killers turn a perk's theme completely upside down? Should the theme of the perk be changed entirely as to not encourage ignoring the obsession? Idrk honestly, perhaps it could just stay the same. Speaking of which the theme of the perk is the reason my idea still includes the ignoring obsession part, not because I think it's fun bc I don't rly lol. So I don't really know what could be done about that. As for the solo stuff, killer balancing and camping/tunneling issues I pretty much agree. I definitely think that the killers who somewhat rely on this perk currently should be buffed, and then perhaps it wouldn't need much changes at all, considering that it's already a decent but not insanely preferable on spirit for example. It's hard to say but I think buffing the killers alone like you said could probably work out well. Again, thanks for being so civil! Not easy to come across nowadays...
Now that I think about it, perhaps the only thing it would need to keep the theme would be something related to hooking or killing the obsession? Idk, I just wish the perk was more consistent in having that theme if u catch my drift, where as now it often feels like a good idea to tunnel the obsession out with special attacks once u reached 6-8 stacks
Honestly I agree, even though I believe it doesn't really deserves a nerf from power perspective, it IS a problematic design that shouldn't really be a perk.
thats what im sayinnnn
Killers really aren't allowed to have anything, huh?
I’m definitely not playing DBD anymore if they nerf STBFL. If I’m broken out of stealth as Ghostface, perks like STBFL and PWYF basically give me a second power when Night Shroud fails me. It’s also just a really fun perk to use.
I like how anything you personally don't like is now considered "problematic" even though people have already explained how the perk is perfectly fine.
I like how my points for the perk being problematic don't matter just because you think it's fine and refuse to think otherwise no matter what lol
Ah you caught me, I think zanshin tactics needs to be nerfed and sprint burst needs to be buffed...totally, but yeah make sure to completely ignore anything I said with a non point lol
You're points are that it makes tunneling and camping easier ignoring that plenty of killers already do so without the perk and that you still have to stack up STBFL, because you spawn with 0 tokens.
But did I say those other killers aren't problematic? No, I didn't. And the time it takes to build up stbfl still doesn't warrant a guaranteed kill in the slightest
In my short time on this forum I've noticed that nearly everything killers do is complained about with "it makes tunneling/camping worse!" I've heard it said about so many things that I've started automatically dismissing any argument that uses it.
Anything that makes it easier for a killer to down a survivor can, theoretically, make it easier to tunnel or camp. It's a non-argument, it only exists to pretend it's a valid criticism of anything a player wants to gripe about. They won't be happy until it's literally impossible for a killer to hit someone.
So it's not problematic for Leatherface to be able to facecamp any survivor on hook at ease due to his power.
But it is problematic that an M1 killer like Freddy has a slightly better chance to down a survivor going for the rescue with STBFL after having built up stacks in the beginning of the game.
except this is beyond just theoretically, this is quite obvious and direct. it's not a non argument, it's something that is very very real, beyond any complaints about enduring or something that you've probably heard. not to mention you completely ignore every other point i made about the perk so..yeah
Again, I never said that. Obviously it is problematic for bubba to be able to do that, but this post is about STBFL. I'm allowed to explain my problem with one thing without bringing up every other problematic thing believe it or not
Except all your points against STBFL can literally be done without it. There is nothing wrong with the perk, because as far as the current game balance of DBD goes, it's not doing anything you can't already do.
I understood perfectly what the OP meant, even though didn't express himself well
He didn't play in the air that "increases" tunnel and camp and ended the argument there, if you read everything, you understand.
STBFL is quickly allowing the chases to have their average time reduced, with little investment from the killers, since they won 2 STBFL basekit in the last mid-chaper, and now with 3 tokens as killer you don't give the survivor time to gain enough space to position well in the loops and gain space after the hit, something that before would only start to be felt with 5 tokens.
And now you have the nerf in the average healing time, with the people living injured for middle to end-game (when there's no more med-kits), which will make it possible to tunnel easily (and camp against killers who defend the hook well, i.e, Bubba, and who need the double save technique from survivors), and just because other high-tier killers can do this without needing the perk doesn't mean they don't need tweaking
You can't do it on Freddy without STBFL. I'm not saying STBFL is the entirety of the problem but it very much does add to it. You could say the same about Bubba like "you don't need Bubba to tunnel or camp, you could just use STBFL" and all of a sudden Bubba is completely fine
Except tunneling and camping are not problems and are in fact rewarded by the current balance of dbd.
And that's why you buff ghost face, shocker I know
Uh, yeah, they are problems actually, don't really know where you got that from. Them being rewarded by the current balance of dbd is in fact like the entire problem. I don't get what you're saying here unless you think tunneling and camping really should stay meta strategies in which case I have no reason to listen to any of your points
Tunneling and camping have been in the game from the start. They are valid strategies that survivors need to get over. Killers are under no expectation to spread out hooks and not take advantage of any situation where they can get an early kill.
Asking for STBFL to be nerfed, because they can help aid tunneling and camping is a bad reason to nerf the perk.
OP is complaining that killers have a perk that does something effective. Can't have that in DbD! Every killer perk must be completely nonfunctional, or else someone might actually be affected by it.
and now with 3 tokens as killer you don't give the survivor time to gain enough space to position well in the loops and gain space after the hit, something that before would only start to be felt with 5 tokens
Their injured speed boost is plenty to get them somewhere, if they know where to run. If they can't position themselves somewhere to loop, it's because they put themselves in a terrible location to start with, which is their own fault. Or should 100% of the map be loops, now?
And now you have the nerf in the average healing time, with the people living injured for middle to end-game (when there's no more med-kits), which will make it possible to tunnel easily, and just because other high-tier killers can do this without needing the perk doesn't mean they don't need tweaking
You know survivors can heal each other, right? The altruism healing nerf was reverted, there's nothing stopping them. And once again complaining that killers being able to hit survivors encourages tunneling. More non-arguments!
valid strategy yes, but that should not be encouraged, even more when used to the extreme, requiring perks and team with comms to counteract these game design exploits.
In the best of analogies, you as a killer won't want to be supervisor of popping gens just because you didn't come prepared with the correct perks against swf gen-rush build + bnps
Just because the killer play is allowed to do something doesn't mean it should be encouraged by the devs. Also, I provided many other reasons which you continue to blatantly ignore XD
Until the devs rework the game in a way where these strategies are non-functional, you would have a point about nerfing STBFL.
I'm complaining that it specifically is problematic. Do you think I complain about no way out because it's effective? No, believe it or not I actually praise the perk because it's the opposite of problematic. Come back after reading my points instead of just saying "so you want killer perks to do nothing?" mindlessly.
i know about the changes, and you ignored all points of how the perk worked >>>>BEFORE<<<<<<< the base-kti buff of the killers in the previous mid-chapter.
And how will the person have a crystal ball to position themselves well if they don't even know if the killer has the perk, only after the hit? Even more so when it was removed from a hook located in deadzone. This is not an argument at all, it just threw a hypothetical situation in the wind.
STBFL is one of many things that make it significantly more functional, either tunneling needs to be nerfed in a way that makes even tunneling w stbfl ineffective, or both need to be nerfed (or changed in the case of stbfl) in a way that has the same effect.
Your points are just nitpicking and whining about a perk that makes it a little easier for the killer to hit you, using a bunch of nonsense excuses to make it look like valid criticism.
It is a perk that does something useful that people enjoy and you're upset about it.
He probably means killer is proxy camping leaves hooks to get hits and then comes back to camp the hook.
You're just saying my points are "nonsense excuses" without explaining what's wrong with them. You're just saying "everything your saying is nonsense and this perk is fine" without backing yourself up in the slightest. Leave, read the post, come up wtih counterpoints and then come back. Also, hmm, what other perk does something useful that's enjoyed by the side it's on? Oh yeah, dead hard, but in what universe are you gonna defend a perk like that lol. Everything you're saying has literally no substance I'm sorry to break it to you. I'm gonna stop responding to you now until you say something actually meaningful.
Pretty much, or if you even completely leave the hook but then immediately come back once they get unhooked, and have an easier time tunneling them even if they get healed the more stbfl stacks you got
An easier way to fix all these problems around tunnel, camp and slugg would be remove the hooks and replace it with a respawn system, instead of just band-aiding/especific changes to the current hook system with more perks or killer powers around bad game-design (obviously you will need to review how the perks that works around hooks and dying state will work in the new system, and give some compensation to the killer in the EGC since the survivors will be transported to respawn points after down, so this compensation would be something like noed base kit)
Gen rush can be fixed if you would be able to level the average generator repair time among swf and solo survivors, and the best way would be to have more Solo generators on the map, giving more time from the middle to the end match in the chases, and I believe that 4 of the 7 generators being Solo gens would be pretty ok, (so swf would need to do at least 2 full Solo generators)