Save the Best for Last needs to be *adjusted*
Despite STBFL being known as a healthy perk, there's actually many significant problems with it. If you are going to criticize any of these points, then please be constructive instead of just saying some "it's a healthy perk entitled survivor source trust me bro" nonsense.
- Works well on a variety of killers
Despite people arguing that STBFL is "only good on the weaker killers" ...this just isn't the case. STBFL is good on spirit, hag, wesker, demogorgon, deathslinger, nemesis, etc. None of whom are in the bottom tier of killers.
- Even if it was only good on the weaker killers...
That is a band aid and serves as a terrible way to balance weaker killers without actually addressing their design flaws and avoids the problem. Perks should never be balanced in a way that's like "oh it's fine because this killer sucks without it" or "it's the only thing making this killer playable." If it's the only thing making some killers viable, then perhaps those killers need to be made more viable at base instead of being forced to run a perk to do so.
- Killers with special attack flexibility deny the obsession of the intended counterplay
This problem is obviously much more niche than the entirety of killers that can use STBFL, but it is still an issue nonetheless and one that has an obvious solution. Killers like demogorgon, deathslinger, pig, trapper, wesker, and nemesis can completely ignore the counterplay that the survivor team is supposed to have by design. I honestly believe this is an oversight, as many of these killers didn't exist the last time the perk was updated
- Completely stomps solo players
This perk against solos is genuinely gross, it's completely unrealistic to expect the randomly chosen obsession to know what they need to do to counter the perk, and that's only if they even realize it's being used in the first place. This perk should notify the obsession in some way.
- Makes camping and tunneling extremely free
Despite what some people will say...no, getting to 8 stacks is not that difficult at all, especially since it becomes easier to get stacks the more you get, and you don't even need the absolute maximum to for it to still be very effective. I think it's very obvious how this perk makes camping and tunneling so free, even if the obsession takes hits, you only lose a maximum of four tokens, which is still very effective especially since it immediately goes up to 5 when you hit someone who's, say, going for the unhook. Camping with enough stacks of STBFL pretty much guarantees a free kill with zero counterplay, something which absolutely not exist so long as free escapes aren't meant to exist.
I am not advocating for a flat nerf to this perk per se, since it's generally balanced under the circumstances it was somewhat designed for (used to help an m1 killer in chases while having counterplay when against competent survivors who know about it), but these problems with it are very significant and should be addressed somehow, perhaps with a full rework of the perk. I have a suggestion for a rework that probably isn't perfect, but should make it more reasonable and consistent for both sides.
- Cooldown on successful basic attacks is not reduced until reaching a max of x (probably around 4) tokens
- Upon reaching x tokens, cooldown on successful basic attacks is reduced by y% (probably around 50)
- All tokens are immediately lost when the obsession loses a health state from a basic or special attack
- The obsession is notified when x tokens are reached
- Maybe tokens cannot be lost until x tokens are reached?
This would hopefully serve to make STBFL are more realistic pick on a wider variety of killers, while also making it much more reasonable to counter when necessary. I feel as though the buff would serve to make up for the nerf, and overall I think would make the perk more interesting and fast paced. I'm not saying this idea is definitely a perfect stbfl rework, it's just something that popped into my head, if it would be bad in practice I wouldn't be shocked or anything.
Let me know what u think of these points, and please, be constructive dammit!
Edit 1: Let me make clear, I don't think this perk is "OP," just problematic. I also don't think it's problematic at the highest levels of play, but for everything below that it definitely is, and comp level dbd shouldn't be the only skill levels considered.
Comments
Works good on a variety of killers
The fact you list this as a problem is hilarious. As if a killer perk being universally appealing is somehow a bad thing. It's not.
Killers with special attack flexibility deny the obsession of the intended counterplay
Killers having to use their powers to work around a downside is not a bad thing either. It demands more skill of the killer player and they're rewarded for it. No, the Obsession is not supposed to throw themselves onto the killer's weapon to deny the perk's power, that's stupid to even imply that any survivor is obligated to get themselves killed.
Completely stomps solo players
Completely irrelevant to anything at all. It works just as fine on SWFs as it does on SoloQ players. And again, no, the Obsession is not supposed to get themselves killed just to deny the perk.
Makes camping and tunneling extremely free
The usual non-argument made about literally anything a killer does to make you lose the game. Bringing this up is how I know you're just really sour about losing to a killer running this perk.
I didn't last that as a problem, I just mentioned it because people claim it "only works on the weaker killers" despite that being untrue
It is untrue, and is therefore not worth mentioning as a point.
Actually yeah, they are. It's the entire point of the token loss part of the perk lol.
No, they really aren't, and you're crazy if you think they are.
More source trust me bro despite it being objectively better against solos than swfs
Everything is better against SoloQ than SWF. This is because SWF is inherently unfair and is thus irrelevant as an argument. This is the other "I have no real argument" argument. Won't anyone think about the poor SoloQ?! It always comes after the tunneling/camping complaining. Killer can't have anything that's effective because of the poor poor SoloQ players.
Still not a non-argument, still is a problem. I can tell you just think anyone who thinks anything on the killer side is problematic is just salty lol
"THE KILLER CAN HIT ME" is not a problem. You gotta go through roughly four chases to get max stacks of STBFL, while ignoring the Obsession the entire time. Wow, so much camping, so much tunneling. The killer being good at hitting you in the mid- to end-game is not a crime.
I sincerely appreciate the level of detail, time and energy the OP (and everyone discussing) put into this discussion. And while I generally disagree with OP, I did find it an interesting discussion. I just wanted to throw my two cents in.
OP states on various occasions that STBFL is viewed as "healthy", "balanced", but is problematic.
1st - there a variety of gameplay-aspects/perks/killer powers/etc. that most in the community find UNhealthy, NOT balanced, AND problematic. So, I think BHVR should tackle those before even glancing at STBFL.
2nd - "works on a variety of killers" - Is there not a plethora of more controversial perks that do as well? Any and all gen regression/slow down? Aura revealing? NOED? Why is this only a STBFL issue?
3rd - Good on strong killers (despite good for weak killer argument) - Aren't most things strong on strong killers? Multiple perks are strong on weak/bottom tier killers and strong killers. Like any gen regression/slow down. Some killer's kits have more synergy with these perks but that's more based on the nuance of their power and the perk. Additionally, isn't half the fun the unique interactions between killer perks and powers. We know what not unique perk+power interactions look like. (Old Ex: Ruin, Undying, Corrupt, NOED; New Ex: Overcharge, CoB, Corrupt, Scourge PR literally on every killer)
4th - completely stomps solo players - this is literally just a blanket issue with the game. Why address it only with this perk? I feel it is rather common knowledge that soloq is the weakest role. This should be addressed outside of perks (as they did with HUD).
5th - makes camping and tunneling completely free - As many pointed out, this is not true. However, even if it were, the issue is camping and tunneling not the perk. Similar to soloq, camping and tunneling should be addressed directly, outside of perks changes.
I only have constructive criticism of the arguments provided. I have no constructive feedback on how STBFL should be changed because in my opinion, it shouldn't be.
I think anyone can take an aspect of something that can be improved and call it problematic, regardless of that thing being in a good place or not. Everything can be improved. However, I feel in the context of the game in present day, calling STBFL problematic is quite the exaggeration. That being said, if OP feels it is, they are valid in their feelings.
My concluding question is:
Why is OP choosing STBFL address issues they have with the game when these issues are not isolated to only STBFL?
Thanks again for the STBFL talk!!!
I’ve brought up STBFL needing to be mildly tuned down a while ago but there are certain people that will not hear it. Fact is, it’s a perk that can completely deny unhooks/trades and that’s the biggest problem it has.
I don’t believe it’s the most urgent issue but it’s numbers really should have been adjusted alongside the killer hit recovery change a long while ago.
That's not a problem, there is a way to camp lot better but that hasn't been considered a problem.
Both are a problem
First of all I appreciate you being constructive, it's been hard to come across that sorta thing as you might've been able to tell... Let me just explain, I know as well as anyone that there are things more problematic than STBFL. I chose to make a post about it however because I feel the issues with it (or with the game that it adds to) are often overlooked. Since other problematic things are already talked about quite a bit, enough for BHVR to recognize them for example, I don't want to see STBFL get completely ignored. I agree with the 4th and 5th points, but I don't see many options for making this perk easier for solos to deal with besides adding voice chat or giving the obsession a notification of the perk. Basically what I'm saying is, if you ignore the problems this perk has with camping/tunneling/solos and instead change those things separately, that's fine, but it must be made sure that the way those things are changed also makes those problems with STBFL less problematic. Does that make any sense? I feel like I'm not wording this perfectly but basically I generally agree with you, just didn't want to see this perk continue to get such a massive pass from what I've seen.
That's literally just a problem of fundamental game design and nothing needs to be balanced around camping.
Either camping needs to be fixed in a way that makes camping w stbfl not a problem or stbfl needs to be fixed in a way that has the same effect